Swords Versus Kicks (Pre-Timeskip Asta vs Adventure Arc Mori Jin) (0-2-0)

[azontr]

If you see it that way then it’s cool but keep in mind you did say he was training Mori and he did predict Mori in fee of those attacks he was getting in but that’s not my overall point anyway.

The point: Asta has a shield

I mean so does Mori with Yeoui, literally a giant staff that can be thicker than mountains and longer than planets.

 

[SeijiSetto]

How does Asta deal with Class Z LS? If Mori just pinches his swords and tosses them, what do?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I mean so does Mori with Yeoui, literally a giant staff that can be thicker than mountains and longer than planets.

Yeah ik, but Asta’s precog effectively keeps himself from getting hit. Also Asta has two swords too

How does Asta deal with Class Z LS? If Mori just pinches his swords and tosses them, what do?

Lol not this argument again like Mori would do some dishonorable shit like that as a martial artist but okay.

Anyway even if he does decide to do some shit like this. It won’t happen if Asta sees it coming.

 

[azontr]

Yeah ik, but Asta’s precog effectively keeps him from getting hit.

I mean... kinda farfetched to assume Asta can just dodge a giant staff with his precog? Like, sure, he knows it's coming, but how is he gonna avoid it.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I mean... kinda farfetched to assume Asta can just dodge a giant staff with his precog? Like, sure, he knows it's coming, but how is he gonna avoid it.

Uhhh… if Mori constantly shoots out his staff in a sus way . I’m pretty sure Asta would just attempt to block it. But then again, why would Mori constantly do such a thing?

 

[azontr]

But then again, why would Mori constantly do such a thing?

Because like... he has kinda constantly done it?

He's used his staff to crush people several times. If he's pushed, he'll literally put his staff INSIDE somebody and expand it from within them to explode then from the inside-out.

 

[Duedate8898]

At the point in the story both these characters are at, this is really a fight of a brawn, skill, and stamina and Mori should take those more often than Asta. In the case of brawn, Asta startss off with the advantage but not only does Mori have the stat amps to close that gap at the start of the fight but his Accelerated Development does allow for him to either stay in league with or push a little ahead of Asta's own stats. Then in terms of stamina, both characters are pretty even in that regard able to fight for hours and through grievous wounds, the big difference is that Mori is able to maintain his body better than Asta can through such damage with stuff like his Acupuncture which would give him the slight edge in this department.

And finally skill. Both have Analytical Prediction and have battled others with the power so they do well to cancel each other out in that regard, and any hax that Mori could employ just isn't in character for the most part while none of Asta's would work on Mori's in the first place due to his lack of magic. So if both are only able to rely on skill, Mori takes the cake completely on this front. By this point in the series, he was already announced the god of highschool and treated as one of most skilled fighters in his series, a series of which is centered around martial arts whereas Asta while noteable in his swordsmenship does not have the same quality of skilled H2H fighters that Mori possesses. He'd be completely overwhelmed on this front and because of this, the fight would ultimately end up going to Mori.

My vote is for Mori.

 

[azontr]

At the point in the story both these characters are at, this is really a fight of a brawn, skill, and stamina and Mori should take those more often than Asta. In the case of brawn, Asta stars off with the advantage but not only does Mori have the stat amps to close that gap at the start of the fight but his Accelerated Development does allow for him to either stay in league with or push a little ahead of Asta's own stats. Then in terms of stamina, both characters are pretty even in that regard able to fight for hours and through grievous wounds, the big difference is that Mori is able to maintain his body better than Asta can through such damage with stuff like his Acupuncture which would give him the slight edge in this department.

And finally skill. Both have Analytical Prediction and have battled others with the power so they do well to cancel each other out in that regard, and any hax that Mori could employ just isn't in character for the most part while none of Asta's would work on Mori's in the first place due to his lack of magic. So if both are only able to rely on skill, Mori takes the cake completely on this front. By this point in the series, he was already announced the god of highschool and treated as one of most skilled fighters in his series, a series of which is centered around martial arts whereas Asta while noteable in his swordsmenship does not have the same quality of skilled H2H fighters that Mori possesses. He'd be completely overwhelmed on this front and because of this, the fight would ultimately end up going to Mori.

My vote is for Mori.

I didn't know you still did GoH stuff lol.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Because like... he has kinda constantly done it?

He's used his staff to crush people several times. If he's pushed, he'll literally put his staff INSIDE somebody and expand it from within them to explode then from the inside-out.

If you say so,

Simply put if staff is too big to dodge Asta blocks but if his staff is small enough to perform that piercing and then expanding shit, Asta just dodges.

 

[azontr]

If you say so,

Simply put if staff is too big to dodge Asta blocks but if his staff is small enough to perform that piercing and then expanding shit, Asta just dodges.

If Asta blocks he would ultimately lose in a "blade lock" because of his lower LS.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

At the point in the story both these characters are at, this is really a fight of a brawn, skill, and stamina and Mori should take those more often than Asta. In the case of brawn, Asta stars off with the advantage but not only does Mori have the stat amps to close that gap at the start of the fight but his Accelerated Development does allow for him to either stay in league with or push a little ahead of Asta's own stats. Then in terms of stamina, both characters are pretty even in that regard able to fight for hours and through grievous wounds, the big difference is that Mori is able to maintain his body better than Asta can through such damage with stuff like his Acupuncture which would give him the slight edge in this department.

And finally skill. Both have Analytical Prediction and have battled others with the power so they do well to cancel each other out in that regard, and any hax that Mori could employ just isn't in character for the most part while none of Asta's would work on Mori's in the first place due to his lack of magic. So if both are only able to rely on skill, Mori takes the cake completely on this front. By this point in the series, he was already announced the god of highschool and treated as one of most skilled fighters in his series, a series of which is centered around martial arts whereas Asta while noteable in his swordsmenship does not have the same quality of skilled H2H fighters that Mori possesses. He'd be completely overwhelmed on this front and because of this, the fight would ultimately end up going to Mori.

My vote is for Mori.

Most of these have been addressed already. Why are you voting for these reasons without addressing counter arguments?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

If Asta blocks he would ultimately lose in a "blade lock" because of his lower LS.

All it would do is push Asta around.

Are we still talking about extension of the stuff horizontally? Cuz there should be no “blade lock” from this. Just Asta guarding himself while getting a staff smashed into him.

 

[Robo432343]

Pasta.

 

[SeijiSetto]

All it would do is push Asta around.

Are we still talking about extension of the stuff horizontally? Cuz there should be no “blade lock” from this. Just Asta guarding himself while getting a staff smashed into him.

Even that would be negative for Asta. The speed at which Yeoui can extend and the length could very well push him into the clouds or some bullshit like that.

 

[Duedate8898]

Most of these have been addressed already. Why are you voting for these reasons without addressing counter arguments?

Because that's the opinion I formulated on all of this. I feel confident in my knowledge of both Asta and Mori since I'm a fan of both series, so I've summarized all my points and gave my vote based off of that.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Because that's the opinion I formulated on all of this. I feel confident in my knowledge of both Asta and Mori since I'm a fan of both series, so I've summarized all my points and gave my vote based off of that.

But you also have to address the counter arguments. @SeijiSetto is also knowledgeable on both series but he still actively debates here rather than giving opinions and not caring about the counter points.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Even that would be negative for Asta. The speed at which Yeoui can extend and the length could very well push him into the clouds or some bullshit like that.

Okay so when has there been an instance of Mori abusing his staff at close range in the way both of you make it seem . What fights?

 

[Duedate8898]

But you also have to address the counter arguments. @SeijiSetto is also knowledgeable on both series but he still actively debates here rather than giving opinions and not caring about the counter points.

It's not that I don't care about the counterpoints, I just gave my opinion before addressing them. I'm allowed to say what I think before I bother tackling the opposing opinions.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Edit: I made this message before reading your last one

At the point in the story both these characters are at, this is really a fight of a brawn, skill, and stamina and Mori should take those more often than Asta. In the case of brawn, Asta startss off with the advantage but not only does Mori have the stat amps to close that gap at the start of the fight but his Accelerated Development does allow for him to either stay in league with or push a little ahead of Asta's own stats. Then in terms of stamina, both characters are pretty even in that regard able to fight for hours and through grievous wounds, the big difference is that Mori is able to maintain his body better than Asta can through such damage with stuff like his Acupuncture which would give him the slight edge in this department.

I mean look at this

you left out the part Asta also has Accelerated Development that’s as good if not better than Mori’s. You left out the fact that Asta would suffer significantly less damage than Mori via other abilities, which would indirectly allow him last longer in the fight stamina wise. And the fact that Asta can avoid all these via his precognition.

You can’t avoid all the conversations we have had here up till now so you can just state your opinion and vote cuz… “why not?”

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It's not that I don't care about the counterpoints, I just gave my opinion before addressing them. I'm allowed to say what I think before I bother tackling the opposing opinions.

Fine… But the fact that you just voted just offended me I guess cuz things like that can start an FRA train based on my experience.

 

[azontr]

Okay so when has there been an instance of Mori abusing his staff at close range in the way both of you make it seem . What fights?

The fights that come off to the top of my head are The Fight against Ardun, the fight against the 7th Master in the Heavenly Realm, and literally a bunch of times during Ragnarok. Don't got specific chapter numbers on mind rn.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I need to finish the series, I guess this is my motivation. I’m tired of waiting for the anime.

 

[azontr]

I need to finish the series, I guess this is my motivation. I’m tired of waiting for the anime.

Gimme a bit to get specific chapter numbers.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Lol not this argument again like Mori would do some dishonorable shit like that as a martial artist but okay.

What part of disarming your opponent (who has a weapon, mind you) is dishonorable? Check Ch68, Mori fights a sword wielder and literally just smacks the shit out of them then Homi-Geolyi (a taekwondo leg grab) combos them into smacking the sword straight out of their hand.

I'm not saying exactly that will happen but if he sees Asta's swords as a major threat it would be incredibly stupid of him not to get rid of them, and he's done it in-character before too, so.

The fights that come off to the top of my head are The Fight against Ardun, the fight against the 7th Master in the Heavenly Realm, and literally a bunch of times during Ragnarok. Don't got specific chapter numbers on mind rn.

Given, this is Mori Dan, but he doesn't fight any differently aside from using Recoilless which isn't related to staffs.
Against both Mujin and Dean he literally punched them into a crater and repeatedly told Yeoui to stretch/shrink to crush them with it.

This Mori should be Low 7-B in base, no? Using Martial Arts is a massive buff to AP. There's no exact multiplier, but an earlier key Mori is 9-A without it and 8-B using them, so it is a HUGE difference. It's comparable to the amp of "turning on" Borrowed Power (given that Martial Arts were quite literally invented as a way to get stronger without using Borrowed Power), which let Judge Q go from getting his shit mixed HEAVY by Mori to one-shotting him.

 

[azontr]

Given, this is Mori Dan, but he doesn't fight any differently aside from using Recoilless which isn't related to staffs.

Mori Dan's mindset is completely different from Mori Jin's, actually. Mori Jin spams high AoE martial arts, Mori Dan doesn't and only engages in pure CQC. Mori Jin gets easily agitated which becomes exploitable, Mori Dan does not.

Both have used Yeoui to crush people but Mori Dan is completely different than Mori Jin.

 

[Duedate8898]

Edit: I made this message before reading your last one


I mean look at this

you left out the part Asta also has Accelerated Development that’s as good if not better than Mori’s. You left out the fact that Asta would suffer significantly less damage than Mori via other abilities, which would indirectly allow him last longer in the fight stamina wise. And the fact that Asta can avoid all these via his precognition.

You can’t avoid all the conversations we have had here up till now so you can just state your opinion and vote cuz… “why not?”

When I say Mori Jin's Accelerated Development allows him to stay in league with or push pash Asta's stats, I'm accounting for the fact they both have Accelerated Development. At this point in the series, Asta's AD is good and fine, but it isn't on the same level as what he exemplifies once he starts tapping into his anti-magic properly after getting Black Asta. So I put both at around the same level, and I give Mori the edge in this department because he can use Acupunture to instantly give himself the advantage with 8 times, I think he can go a bit higher at this point in the series though I'm not completely sure on that, or just match Asta and then allow for his AD to do the work to stay in league with Asta.

In response to Asta ability to reduce damage and this goes partially into his pre-cog, not only will Asta not be able to properly deflect and reduce damage throughout the entire fight but also this is something that Mori can adapt to and workaround as diverting the force of an opponents attack to avoid taking full damage is a normal thing in the GOH series. Not to mention that Mori also possess the ability to staunch his bleeding, heal lightly, numb his body to pain. He has a wider range of abilities to get more out of his stamina than Asta does, cause as we both know Asta tends to brute force through fights this early in the series and relies heavily on his insane willpower to push through the damage he suffers. And my final thing to address is that being able to sense Ki has never made Asta untouchable in the series. Even when fighting against people comparable to him, Asta's ki sensing capabilites can be thrown off in a number of ways and are also sometimes just not up to snuff. Someone like Kiato just through his unique fighting style can throw of Asta's Ki sensing capabilities, and someone like Mori who is also known for being unpredictable should be able to do the same to fight on an even playing field.

EDIT:
I would also say we should probably keep Mori Dan out of this conversation, he's Mori at such a fundamentally different level and state of mind that applying any of his skill feats backwards is awkward.

 

[azontr]

Even when fighting against people comparable to him, Asta's ki sensing capabilites can be thrown off in a number of ways and are also sometimes just not up to snuff.

I was... not made aware of this. Can I be shown when this happens, cause I was under the assumption Asta's ki sensing did make him untouchable (since that is what Arnold said).

 

[Arnoldstone18]

What part of disarming your opponent (who has a weapon, mind you) is dishonorable? Check Ch68, Mori fights a sword wielder and literally just smacks the shit out of them then Homi-Geolyi (a taekwondo leg grab) combos them into smacking the sword straight out of their hand.

I'm not saying exactly that will happen but if he sees Asta's swords as a major threat it would be incredibly stupid of him not to get rid of them, and he's done it in-character before too, so.

I mean I said “okay”. I still made sure to reply in the event he does shit like that so no need for this.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I was... not made aware of this. Can I be shown when this happens, cause I was under the assumption Asta's ki sensing did make him untouchable (since that is what Arnold said).

Im actually confused myself.

maybe he’s referring to those who completely negated Asta’s ability to predict them. For example:

Licht (his aura males his Ki unreadable)(couldn’t counter at the time got skill stomped but Asta took his skills tho and constantly refined them over time)
Kiato (his dance magic makes his Ki unreadable) (countered)
Magna (precog blitz > regular blitz) (countered)
Edit: Ichika (skills chain against other precog users + stat amp that forced Asta on the defensive) (caught up)
Lucifero (Superior stats)(caught up albeit heavily damaged at the end)
and so on.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I mean Asta has been commended literally throughout the series of being capable of preventing direct hits on his body with his fighting ability and instinctive reflexes. Especially after learning precognition, and he has only ever gotten hit by those with vastly superior stats to him which he eventually RPLs through if he survives long enough.

So I didn’t say he’s untouchable, he can be touched if you completely neg his precog or stat amp before he counters with RPL.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

When I say Mori Jin's Accelerated Development allows him to stay in league with or push pash Asta's stats, I'm accounting for the fact they both have Accelerated Development. At this point in the series, Asta's AD is good and fine, but it isn't on the same level as what he exemplifies once he starts tapping into his anti-magic properly after getting Black Asta. So I put both at around the same level, and I give Mori the edge in this department because he can use Acupunture to instantly give himself the advantage with 8 times, I think he can go a bit higher at this point in the series though I'm not completely sure on that, or just match Asta and then allow for his AD to do the work to stay in league with Asta.

Asta’s best AD feats are in his base form, he also has AD feats in his Black Mode but those are just bonuses with one or two (vs Zagred) on par with his insane base form development. I told @SeijiSetto I won’t go down that rabbit hole but I just might with you considering this weird claim you made about Asta’s AD. Asta has RPL his way in to entirely new tiers before, which are dozens of times apart if not hundreds or thousands apart (I don’t want to get into the math rn). In this Key alone, Asta was about to RPL his way to High 7-A in the fight against Vetto. He went from getting shat on by a casual Vetto in speed and power to, while heavily injured, damaging Vetto and matching his attack speed to deflect powerful attacks from him to save Noelle. Later in base, when Asta was defending a Crystal. He matched blitzing speeds from Magna who could get fireballs past his precog, these fire balls also turn invisible at point blank range and strike the Crystal from elsewhere. Initially he briefly struggled and stretched to reach these fireballs, Asta’s RPL through in two tries and can now block a barrage of them without hardly moving from his spot. Then there’s the fact Base Asta could RPL his way into damaging Lucifero himself knocking him out, however he would’ve never reached that level of strength if he didn’t survive the beatings with Devil Union. In Black Clover as long as your survive you are getting stronger, I mean look at Noelle jumping tiers too because she just needed to survive long enough so she can damage Vanica with a far weaker form. You should be putting Asta’s RPL above Mori Jin’s heck you could equalize it if you want but no way in hell would I agree to Mori’s AD being higher than Asta’s.

In response to Asta ability to reduce damage and this goes partially into his pre-cog, not only will Asta not be able to properly deflect and reduce damage throughout the entire fight but also this is something that Mori can adapt to and workaround as diverting the force of an opponents attack to avoid taking full damage is a normal thing in the GOH series. Not to mention that Mori also possess the ability to staunch his bleeding, heal lightly, numb his body to pain. He has a wider range of abilities to get more out of his stamina than Asta does, cause as we both know Asta tends to brute force through fights this early in the series and relies heavily on his insane willpower to push through the damage he suffers. And my final thing to address is that being able to sense Ki has never made Asta untouchable in the series. Even when fighting against people comparable to him, Asta's ki sensing capabilites can be thrown off in a number of ways and are also sometimes just not up to snuff. Someone like Kiato just through his unique fighting style can throw of Asta's Ki sensing capabilities, and someone like Mori who is also known for being unpredictable should be able to do the same to fight on an even playing field.

• Asta could also get the most out of his stamina by blocking Mori’s attacks while landing more on him especially with the help of his precog. Asta always keeps going regardless of the pain he suffers and the damage he takes as well.
• You are downplaying Asta’s precognition ability here. You should know that Kiato fighting style prevents his Ki from being read. Infact it could even throw off Asta’s senses. Why did you make his fighting style that’s so impressive sound so damn plain. Asta’s precog didn’t just not work cuz of another unique fighting style. Yes it was a unique fighting style but don’t leave out the fact that it can literally throw people’s senses off and their ability to sense their life force as well. And please don’t forget that Asta also assimilated this fighting style which will throw Mori’s senses further preventing him from landing many clean hits on Asta without it getting dodged or blocked.
  
  Note: most of the time Asta’s precog didn’t work was due to the fact that characters always had a way around it. Could be Aura, could be ability, could be initial blitzing speeds. But don’t use these things to downplay Asta’s precog

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’m going to have dinner, and study for this calculus exam I have tomorrow (yes im taking calculus during the summer.) I might respond tomorrow afternoon, might be earlier given how much I’m invested into this match.

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

Gonna go duedate's reason here since i agree more to his point's. I've read both the series and both watched the series. Tbh i think some of Asta's abilities were wanked but meh i don't wanna debate so i'm just gonna vote Mori with Duedate's reason.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I would only say that if one of the most important things of Mori is surpassing Asta via amps and AD while Asta also has AD but gets outclassed by Amps, then the rule of "you can´t speedblitz if you are slower" takes place

Because being 8 times faster is an absurd advantage for Mori the moment he uses acupunture

Also adding that Mori movement speed is massively slower, but just so everybody knows it, it does not change anything only that Asta could run off and form a strategy which won´t work with the skill being "equal" but the speed being in Mori´s favour

 

[BoastJr]

Hmm skimmed the thread quite a bit but I have seen the relevant point.

Mori can get a sizeable amp of 8 times and that turns the tables in his favor.

Both have amazing AD with cases being made for both.

I am leaning to towards Mori for duedates reasoning.

Although Arnold has brought up good AD reasoning for asta and precognition.

I will wait for a few more rebuttal before coming to conclusions.

 

[SeijiSetto]

adding that Mori movement speed is massively slower, but just so everybody knows it,

No he isn't. This key is just straight up MHS, his first key is the one that has Subsonic movement and Hypersonic+ reactions.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

No he isn't. This key is just straight up MHS, his first key is the one that has Subsonic movement and Hypersonic+ reactions.

Ok, I read it wrong for trying to be quick

 

[SeijiSetto]

Mori having the ability to just straight up paralyse Asta via acupuncture - which I think he should be able to do even with Asta's predictions by using Bo-Bup to quickly move around him - as well as >Yeoui (and the associated LS) being able to win any extended "sword" clash or potentially just being able to grab them and toss them is what I think goes in his favour here.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ignoring the goons.

Mori having the ability to just straight up paralyse Asta via acupuncture - which I think he should be able to do even with Asta's predictions by using Bo-Bup to quickly move around him

Slower character cant blitz faster characters but Asta could get hit if he loses concentration for even a fraction of a sec due to overwhelming speeds. So does Mori start with acupuncture speed blitz? Can Mori even win with speed amps on-site?

as well as >Yeoui (and the associated LS) being able to win any extended "sword" clash or potentially just being able to grab them and toss them is what I think goes in his favour here.

Will now focus my attention on this. Still waiting for info about the last bit from @azontr.

 

[azontr]

Still waiting for info about the last bit from @azontr.

Wut u waiting for ?

I got like 3 hours of sleep last night I don't even remember wtf is going on