Super Mario Series Revision (Well, more of downgrade)

[Cummleman]

I've always just assumed she meant a newborn universe and that lead into Galaxy 2

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Checking her speech she just explains the natural cycle of the cosmos and Lumas becoming celestial bodies, nothing implying she did anything.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah nothing says that at all.

Anyways, If Low 2-C is just gonna be removed altogether anyways then yeah let's focus on the Tier 4 stuff.

So far Raphael doesn't have much against it.

Peach and the Grand Star pop out of the black hole Bowser falls into which dissipates/collapses. I say this is a black hole because we can clearly see light being pulled into it and there's not much else that breaks the standards present. We even see another black hole produce Hawking Radiation. The only thing is that the collapse happens fast, but we've accepted other black hole feats for less.

Bowser falls into a likely black hole that was eating multiple planets and he wasn't amped into his giant form here. Him being giant also wouldn't disqualify scaling because of Mario & Luigi having a giant Bowser secret boss and multiple characters having harmed a giant Bowser, like Yoshi. Whether it qualifies as a black hole or not shouldn't matter much given the planets still being eaten regardless. This could definitely only be Tier 5 range but just in case it's a little higher I listed it.

Harming a giant Bowser amped by Kamek is still Tier 4 via Kamek having empowered Raphael and his magic likely being the cause of the constellation feat if not Yoshi. Also, Yoshi is canonically and consistently one of the weaker Star Children in canon with maybe Peach being the only one ever given lower power than him in all the games that list their statistics compared to the other characters, so the fact he can push a giant Kamek-amped Bowser back with his egg tosses and harm him says a lot. Hell, it's even more hilarious when you consider the fact Yoshi's Island wasn't just a single Yoshi but a collaboration from the entire species, meaning random Yoshis are capable of scaling.

Bowser tanking attacks from characters empowered by Stars in the Mario Party series which have shown potential Tier 4 feats. Though "power of the stars" being used for Mario Party DS is actually usually only ever used for the stuff that scales to Power Stars or related to Power Stars so that particular example has me going "hmm"

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Its normal members who helped get FRA train to get Mario into Tier 2 based on faulty and flawed information.

and it was mods that made a whole server just to downgrade a single verse and then made an unproffesional thread that didn’t even cite any debunks to rush the thread with overwhelming mod support

 

[Armorchompy]

made a whole server just to downgrade a single verse

insane. truly appalling. this sort of thing never happens on vsbw. ever.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

yes please stop bringing up this stuff. Let's just focus on the actual contents of the thread

 

[Foxthefox1000]

So anyways the main reason I believe Tier 4 should stay is that Yoshi's Island was early in the series (literally chronologically the first or one of the first) and a bunch of fodder Yoshi helped out, meaning the entire Yoshi species should scale to the feats present in that game, like the Star feat.

Being performed so early in the series with an entire species scaling and Tier 4 feats having happened later on in the series I do believe it should be alright to stay.

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly, sure, Kamek uses magic but is there any concrete evidence of a universal power system behind that magic that would make his attacks scale to the self-destruction of a being he amped?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

He uses the same wand for everything and his magic almost always look the same regardless of what magic he performs with those circle, square, and triangle symbols.

He also specifcally says "I banish you to forever twinkle in the heavens!" right before amping Raphael.

Oddly specific, eh? Almost seems intentional.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

It's not limited to Kamek either. Practically all the magic wand users have similar magic attacks with the symbols and all.

It's a good thing most of them are bosses.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, that's what magic looks like, but that's pretty weak evidence for a universal magic system.

Also, wouldn't Raphael becoming stars count as Transmutation, and therefore hax?

 

[RethPo]

Just some context for the hole punch feat.
Here the sun is removed out of the sky which turns out to be hole punches doing by punching a hole there. He gets beaten, and the sun is restored back in the sky like that. Take that how you will

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Alright, that's what magic looks like, but that's pretty weak evidence for a universal magic system.

Also, wouldn't Raphael becoming stars count as Transmutation, and therefore hax?

Tell that to the thread that relied on purely aesthetic shimmers to claim a person was using a non-universal source lol

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And as for transmutation I'm certain Kamek would've said something akin to transmutating if he used such magic. It feels more like AP to me given thr magic he used on Raphael was literally a power amp.

 

[Armorchompy]

Tell that to the thread that relied on purely aesthetic shimmers to claim a person was using a non-universal source lol

Kamek's magic always looks the same, that's not enough evidence IMO. The Black Jewel argument was different, don't bring it up here.

And as for transmutation I'm certain Kamek would've said something akin to transmutating if he used such magic. It feels more like AP to me given thr magic he used on Raphael was literally a power amp.

No, Raphael becoming stars is transmutation I mean.

 

[Chariot190]

insane. truly appalling. this sort of thing never happens on vsbw. ever.

You're right. Truly appalling

Also, wouldn't Raphael becoming stars count as Transmutation, and therefore hax?

Nah, Raph just got slammed so ******* hard he literally exploded into a constellation if memory serves.
I̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶g̶a̶g̶ ̶f̶e̶a̶t̶.̶

 

[JJSliderman]

Unless Yoshi’s glorious fat cheeks have the power of transmutation, not seeing it.

 

[Arceus0x]

(˵ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°˵)

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Kamek uses the same magic on Bowser as well. Don't see how else Rapheal could've done what he did unless it was Yoshi and his transmutation works way different.

This is the biggest reach

 

[Chariot190]

Unless Yoshi’s glorious fat cheeks have the power of transmutation, not seeing it.

I mean, technically speaking, they actually do.
That's apart of his whole schtick.

 

[JJSliderman]

That’s more sticking enemies into eggs, though.

 

[Armorchompy]

I was thinking it was more of an inherent property of Raphael, not the attack Yoshi did on him.

Kamek uses the same magic on Bowser as well.

And?

Don't see how else Rapheal could've done what he did unless it was Yoshi and his transmutation works way different.

Slow down, did what, explode into stars? Cause you're also arguing that's something that happened.

This is the biggest reach

ok

Also yeah it's obviously a gag feat that echoes old cartoons and should not be considered an accurate representation of any character's power

 

[Foxthefox1000]

He does but they wouldn't work like the feat shows. And if we're saying it was Kamek's magic his tranmutation hax has never had a delayed reaction and the magic used was literally an amp.

Don't see how this can be seen as just hax.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Why the **** would we assume that it's a property of Raphael with no ******* proof nor contextual evidence supporting it?

Like I said, this is a reach.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why the **** would we assume that it's a property of Raphael with no ******* proof nor ******* contextual evidence supporting it?

Like I said, this is a reach.

This is true.

 

[Armorchompy]

He does but they wouldn't work like the feat shows. And if we're saying it was Kamek's magic his tranmutation hax has never had a delayed reaction and the magic used was literally an amp.

How about we just agree that the feat makes absolutely no sense because it's not a feat to begin with but just a gag? "Kamek amped Raphael but also made it so he would explode into stars upon death, which all the other bosses clearly don't, for absolutely no reason" isn't much better.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Okay so then like most of Mario's feats aren't credible because even half of the "Tier 7/6" feats can be seen as gags.

I'm not agreeing to that. Gags are fine in a cartoony series. The castle feat is literally accepted.

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay so then like most of Mario's feats aren't credible because even half of the "Tier 7/6" feats can be seen as gags.

No, "character is hit by an explosion" isn't meant to be a joke in context, and it's incredibly straightforward. "character is sent into space and for absolutely no discernible reason makes a constellation that looks like him" is not straightforward at all and is very clearly a joke. Have you ever watched a Looney Toons cartoon? They do that shit all the time.

I'm not agreeing to that. Gags are fine in a cartoony series. The castle feat is literally accepted.

You've literally called all antifeats we bring here gags. You don't get to make up this double standard.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No, "character is hit by an explosion" isn't meant to be a joke in context, and it's incredibly straightforward. "character is sent into space and for absolutely no discernible reason makes a constellation that looks like him" is not straightforward at all and is very clearly a joke. Have you ever watched a Looney Toons cartoon? They do that shit all the time.

Popeye is offended by that statement.

 

[Armorchompy]

Popeye is offended by that statement.

don't bring up other ******* verses is it so hard

also "Hit Bluto so hard that he destroyed stellar constellations, although this was done by letting him bounce between different stars, not at once" is completely different.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I've called them gags to prove a point because of your own double standards. If we apply similar thought processes to al these feats they can all be argued to not be usable.

The moon feat was literally portrayed as a funny little haha moment with mario and friends panicking and then faceplanting. The stadium explosion is a complete gag because no damage was actually done to the environment and only char being applied at best. This resembles cartoon explosion feats. The castle punt infamously gets called a gag a lot and that's because it's portrayed as such. The Bye-Bye cannon involves a screen transition gag that the M&L series has done before as well as cartoons have done.

There's multiple feats of characters getting flattened and popping back up, resembling toon feats. There's multiple times where a character will leap insane heights getting merely burned resembling cartoons. The series is meant to be toony. This isn't gritty realistic Zelda or serious high-stakes Metroid. These "gags" have been a staple to the series for a long time now.

 

[DragonLord]

I’d also like to put in the thread, Black Holes are not allowed as durability feats, even if there proven real (which these Mario ones aren’t)

 

[Chariot190]

Like there's gag feats and feats played off for laughs, but there's a thin line here lads. I mean just my opinion, but Raph kinda crossed that but eh

This isn't gritty realistic Zelda

Toon Link wants to know your location.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Raph is literally a boss defeat animation referenced by Kamek himself before amping him.

These Tier 7 feats y'all would want applied have even more reason to be argued as gags, come on.

 

[Armorchompy]

A character getting hurt by an attack is meant to be a funny moment, that doesn't mean they weren't hurt by it. A character turning into stars that resemble them for absolutely no reason upon being defeated has no explanation whatsoever and is just a gag. Basic logic should indicate this. I'm not saying it didn't happen, no shit it did. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a gag.

Also no, they don't. But if you want to argue for tier 8 Mario instead, be my guest.

 

[DragonLord]

I feel like there’s a fundamental misunderstanding here, if Mario, who has had 200+ games to pull from, to be even Cosmic level should at least have a wide range of valid feats from The below tiers, if he doesn’t then the Cosmic Level feat, even if legit, is even more of a outlier, dismissing all Tier 7/6 feats as gags is not going to make Mario a Higher tier, it’s going to make him lower more then anything when it’s juxtaposed to all the Anti Feats in the franchise

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And what says a toony series can't have them as legitimate feats? I don't get it. We even currently accept one

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Also, "outlier" is a bit of a bold claim. Care to prove how it is?

I've listed multiple other feats that can corroborate a cosmic level Mario. Funny they get ignored yet again and these shoddy tier 7/6 feats full of holes are still treated as if they're fine and the norm.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I think "Varies from 7-C(or whatever) to 4-C/High 4-C" might be a good compromise...

 

[Foxthefox1000]

But literally none of the Tier 7/6 feats are usable so far.

The closest one is the moon thing but even then you can argue indeterminable timeframe.