Super Mario Series Revision (Well, more of downgrade)

[Foxthefox1000]

Constructive arguments, you say? Funny.

There's still not much to show for Tier 7 or 6 being the most consistent "reasonably". Almost all of them have evident issues, including a case of "well the character hasn't attacked with [insert power] specifically and while it comes from the same power source there's no proof [insert power] scales to other attacks/physicals" which should sound VERY familiar to some of you. That thread was accepted and applied so please don't go arguing this is a legit feat as it's hypocritical. Hell, this case is worse because it's a passive occurrence from his presence and not something he directly applied.

 

[DaReaperMan]

All right, now we are confusing me, what IS the most consistent tier outside of 9/8?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

i dunno. I need someone to show me more direct Tier 7/6 feats that are not full of holes and hypocritical arguments for why they're valid.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, most "Consistent" and "Most frequent" are 2 different things.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

In either case I don't buy Tier 7/6 fitting either.

What's also funny is that in a few of these Tier 7 feats being argued, fodder can be argued to tank these same feats. Just kind hurts those feats even more.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Completely disagree with below Tier 4 as well.

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

I completely disagree with anything below tier 4 as well.

 

[AKM sama]

I know it’s been quite a while since I made a CRT and I’m still not used to how this forum works since I’m not as active as I used to be, so please be patient if I make some mistakes

You made an article instead of a normal thread lol

The main argument for this rating is that they are "treated to be comparable to the real world" (No such comparison exists from what I read) and it being able to “encompass all of reality”. Several reasons why this is unreliable: First, it’s very vague. Second, there are no universe statements whatsoever. Third, even if we take this quote literally, assuming the worlds are swallowing something or whatever, we are not given a timeframe for that. Another argument is some kind of bottomless quote in the Japanese version, which I disagree and should not used as a justification for the feat. Especially with bottomless pits being frequent in the Mario series but as a game mechanic. I’ll go over more about the use of different languages to evaluate feats later but for now, this rating needs to be ditched ASAP. Power Stars are 4-C at minimum and 4-A at max.

I was looking into this thing recently, and was probably going to address this in my next thread, but oh well. I agree with you here. The painting worlds aren’t stated to mirror Mario’s world or universe, it’s literally just based on them being called “another world”, which is not at all enough to treat them as comparable to real world.

Moreover, the term “Bottomless Pit” is a recurring hyperbolic description of pitfalls in Mario games (and uh, many other video games), often simply referring to ditches in the ground. Taking these descriptions hyper-literally means Mario’s mere planet is infinite in size. It’s vastly more likely that they’re simply “bottomless” because there’s no ground beneath them. Also, Mario is shown falling out of a painting world after he plummets into a pit, showing they must have ends.

We stick to official translations from here on out. We already have more than enough threads that out right debunks them and they are one of the main sources of the conflict and nonsensical upgrades this verse has been getting lately. No more fan translated material of other languages.

I 100% agree with this too.

I don't have any comments regarding where Mario should end up at, or about his speed, right now.

 

[MistaClean]

Reading the arguments above. I think Tier 4 should stay but I think Low 2-C should get nuked.

 

[Armorchompy]

I absolutely don't agree with tier 4 at all. Like it or not, and consider them "gags" "outliers" game mechanics" or "anti-feats" or not, Mario's power level is depicted very consistently. He has been hurt by tier 9/8/7 stuff WAY more than he has scaled to some power source that maybe performed a tier 4 feat. Do you think the people making the Mario games are purposefully downplaying his power?

All black hole feats are mostly unusable here. They don't fit our standards, which are strict for a reason.

Not 100% sold on tier 6/7, but there's worse ratings out there if we find enough consistency.

Anyway.

The Dark Bowser feat uses map scaling, which is being thrown out in the Zelda thread, so it'd have to be recalculated. Whether it'd get higher or lower, I dunno.

Speaking of that, the castle throw feat also used map scaling. I recalculated it without it and it's much lower, Class K.

I also calculated some stuff from Bowser's Inside Story here.

I don't really agree with merging Wario and DK just cause they have feats in the same ballpark, that should be handled in another thread. But do consider that Wario in particular has a lot of antifeats too.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Low 2-C getting nuked seems like an inevitability, I think there’s only 1-2 feats supporting that after all those removals, so rip

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The likely result of Tier 4 staying would still be a downgrade to Star level again, and maybe the possibility of the 3-C scaling from Lumas as well, though I know that has it's fair share of supporters and detractors so I'm hesitant to even include it.

 

[Justkillme42069]

Do you think the people making the Mario games are purposefully downplaying his power?

i don't think the people making the mario games give a shit how strong the characters are lol

 

[AKM sama]

I think everybody is in agreement of removal of Low 2-C. Since there is only one valid feat left after this.

As for proposing a downgrade to tier whatever, I'd like to know all the valid tier 4 feats that are being used right now. And what are the valid tier 6-7 whatever is being proposed too.

NOTE: No more memes now. No more derailment.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Plenty of charactets get hurt by things far less than the tier they're rated on, though. That has never been a good argument and I'm tired of seeing it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I would propose a varies but that... has its own complications. Still up for debate.

 

[Armorchompy]

i don't think the people making the mario games give a shit how strong the characters are lol

I think you're wrong here. Don't get me wrong, it's not a powerscaling-focused anime where they consistently make Low 7-B craters or something, but there clearly is consistency in what the characters can do. They can almost always survive explosions large enough to destroy the building they're in, for example, but they always feel pain from that and are sometimes knocked out by it. They can always survive super long falls, but those always hurt them.

Plenty of charactets get hurt by things far less than the tier they're rated on, though. That has never been a good argument and I'm tired of seeing it.

Yeah, that's called an anti-feat. If there's enough anti-feats, then they are what's consistent. You can't just ignore the very concept of anti-feat just cause you don't like it.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Agree on Low 2-C removal.

The fact is, Mario is much more consistently and contradicting below Tier 4, but so many just says those don't count because "muh gags, muh gameplay" and blatantly ignores how flawed a lot of Tier 4+ stuff has been like Brobot, King Boo and Galaxy shit.

And then like clockwork Sonic and Dragon Ball is brought up in these threads.

Mario is not Sonic or Dragon Ball. Its ******* wanked.

I'm not sure where will Mario characters land on scale of Tiers 9-6, but it will be far more accurate than the current one.

 

[DaReaperMan]

We aren't talking about 4-A here. We know full well it's not accurate.

 

[MistaClean]

I mean, I pretty sure Mario has some consistent feats around Tier 7/6/5 or something

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, I pretty sure Mario has some consistent feats around Tier 7/6/5 or something

There's not too many, surprisingly enough. I'm not omniscient in the matter obviously but from what I could gather by researching the characters a bit there's less tier 7 feats than I thought, and that applies even more to tier 6 and especially 5.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yoshi's Raphael feat should still be legit. Kamek's magic empowered Raphael so regardless of if Yoshi caused it or not, it would scale.

Power Stars scaling from Lumas

The "vortex" Bowser falls into in Mario Party 9 was shown eating multiple planets. He wasn't amped either, becaude he grew giant naturally in this game with not outside influences.

Shadow Queen would be Tier 6 for shaking the entire planet, but statements of her being able to destroy the whole world would heavily imply Tier 5 power as just conquering or razing the surface isn't "destroying" the whole planet.

The thing card Fan being able to rotate the planet at high speeds.

Fury Bowser created a world-spanning storm supposedly, though if that scales to anyone is debatable.

Wario fought a genie that created a planet in his image in the ending

The Castle Feat supposedly, though if legit It's the first legit Tier 7 feat with no issues so far. Though Armor just showed a Low 7-C castle thing would've killed Bowser in BiS so even then if you consider his post the ratings would be conflicting.

The Moon launch feat I guess, though the timeframe is still indeterminable.

Kamek Tornado I guess? But it uses map scaling so this one actually might need to be recalculated since it assumes Peach's Castle is as big as the mountains when we've seen consistently and should naturally assume as a building that it's just building-sized so this one can actually be dismissed with the others.

Other feats brought up for tier 7 or 6 in the thread are definitely full of holes so I didn't include them here.

These are just feats I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

As for proposing a downgrade to tier whatever, I'd like to know all the valid tier 4 feats that are being used right now. And what are the valid tier 6-7 whatever is being proposed too.

Tier 4

• 4-A: Power Stars are capable of creating pocket realms in paintings and walls containing a night sky full of stars. Mario defeats beings amplified by Power Stars
• 4-C: Kamek’s Magic turned Raphael the Raven into a star

Contentious Tier 4 feats

• High 4-C: Power Stars can close black holes - Black holes in the SMG series likely don’t meet our wiki’s requirements for being considered legitimate black holes
• High 4-C to 4-B: A Star moved multiple stars and formed a constellation - This took place within the Party Cube so the stars may not be real, and the Stars in the Mario Party series aren’t Power Stars
• 4-A: This is very much the weakest feat here, but Bowser turned Yoshi’s island into a pop-up book containing stars. I don’t see how this applies to Striking Strength or Durability at all, but it’s been proposed before

Due to the series lack of continuity and Miyamoto stating Mario’s characteristics fluctuate to suit the plot of each game I personally wouldn’t be opposed to a Varies compromise if it comes down to that, but that’s definitely been rejected before.

I’d need to do considerable research to collect Tier 7/6 shit, which seems like too much of a hassle, so-

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Basically even the Tier 7 feats have problems

 

[RethPo]

Wanna bring up theres a 4-C feat from hile punch apparently punching out the sun on his profile and an mftl+ feat from brobot fighting mario

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

4-C feat listed on this thing’s profile, sounds a bit sus

Hole Punch (Paper Mario)

Hole Punch is the eighth boss of The Origami King. After removing the sun from the sky, he hid within the singing Toad Temple. Tier: 6-C Name: Hole Punch, The Disco Devil Origin: Mario Bros Gender: None, referred to as Male Age: Unknown Classification: Sapient Hole Punch, Legion of Stationery...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Armorchompy]

Fury Bowser created a world-spanning storm supposedly, though if that scales to anyone is debatable.

It's already difficult to argue for normal giant Bowser to scale to Bowser, when he has an external amp on top of it that's even less legit.

Wario fought a genie that created a planet in his image in the ending

No evidence of scaling to physicals, plus Wish Granting is considered Reality Warping here.

The Castle Feat supposedly, though if legit It's the first legit Tier 7 feat with no issues so far. Though Armor just showed a Low 7-C castle thing would've killed Bowser in BiS so even then if you consider his post the ratings would be conflicting.

Castle Throw is 9-A after being recalc'd.

Kamek Tornado I guess? But it uses map scaling so this one actually might need to be recalculated since it assumes Peach's Castle is as big as the mountains when we've seen consistently and should naturally assume as a building that it's just building-sized so this one can actually be dismissed with the others.

Honestly the smoke Kamek creates is really thin so idk if it's right to consider it a storm.

But disproving the tier 7 feats doesn't make the tier 4 ones more consistent, you know?

Anyway, more importantly, an average Starry Sky feat is 1.688e63 joules. Raphael the Raven's "feat" is 9.882e44. That's the same difference between 7-A and 10-B. I don't think it works as a supporting feat.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

To be fair Bowser had the ink washed off and can still sustain the storm and use Fury Bowser abilities, though he is giant during it

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, for the castle feat, if you're calculating it via pixel scaling the outside; that's an awful way to pixel scale it. The size of the entire stage is how big the castle is actually intended to be. Otherwise, Wario is 10 feet tall.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Here comes the downplay... How was Black Jewel downgraded btw?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And the size of the Koopa Cruiser calc that got accepted would also be inaccurate using it's insides. One feat gets revised and changed either way to keep consistency.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, for the castle feat, if you're calculating it via pixel scaling the outside; that's an awful way to pixel scale it. The size of the entire stage is how big the castle is actually intended to be.

No, it's the size of the level the developers wanted to make. It requires way more proof than map size to say a three-story castle is taller than the Empire State Building. I'm not pixel scaling the outside, I'm using the amount of floors it has to get size.

To be fair Bowser had the ink washed off and can still sustain the storm and use Fury Bowser abilities, though he is giant during it

Is he sustaining it, or does the storm just stay on its own? But yeah he is giant.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

And what about Brobot? And King Boo? And Power Stars? DRB, at least provide those debunks before making a thread

 

[Armorchompy]

And what about Brobot? And King Boo? And Power Stars? DRB, at least provide those debunks before making a thread

Most of those were debunked in other threads yes.

 

[DaReaperMan]

And what about Brobot? And King Boo? And Power Stars? DRB, at least provide those debunks before making a thread

The former two have been debunked so... don't know what to tell you.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

The former two have been debunked so... don't know what to tell you.

Where were they?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Where does "Three Story Castle" statement come from? I'd like to know. Plus, you need to take into account that all that lava is quite dense. Also, Bowser's castles and fortresses have floors that are typically much larger than a traditional castle or fortress on top of that. Where else does he hide all those minions and doom ships and all that jazz + have giant pools of lava?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

And what about Brobot? And King Boo? And Power Stars? DRB, at least provide those debunks before making a thread

Brobot was debunked and removed, same with King Boo.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Oh wow. I swore someone said they were gonna calc it. Either way the tier would still change regardless I'm pretty sure

 

[Armorchompy]

Where does "Three Story Castle" statement come from? I'd like to know. Plus, you need to take into account that all that lava is quite dense. Also, Bowser's castles and fortresses have floors that are typically much larger than a traditional castle or fortress on top of that. Where else does he hide all those minions and doom ships and all that jazz + have giant pools of lava?

The fact that it visibly has three stories? Fair enough on the lava though. Also I am not necessarily saying that the castle is 10 meters tall or whatever it ended up in the calculation, it is a lowball and probably doesn't perfectly reflect the actual size of the castle, I don't disagree with that, but the map scaling method is still inaccurate and leads to inflated results.