Super Mario Series Revision (Well, more of downgrade)

[Foxthefox1000]

We also have literally no other feat to scale the Power Stars from based on their own power. This is quite literally their only feat.

There's also still Tier 4 feats without them even in the equation as well. Yoshi and Raphael for example.

 

[DragonLord]

Bowser used their power to create the (arguably) 4-A Worlds. Why would he then go on to use less power? Why should we assume they are using less energy when the feat seems to be entirely casual? It doesn't say the feat required all of their energies. Doesn't make sense. It failed him because Mario had a **** ton of Power Stars and countered his Jumbo Power Star, and we know that Power Stars can null each other.

It’s not just about purposely using less energy, it’s about if they can even transfer this purposed energy to Physical Stats in the first place, which has no real indication they do, and really you say it’s “casual” but we don’t actually have a time frame for these creation feats as there done off screen

and really your comment on Mario winning because he had a bunch of Power Stars only seems to hammer the point that Base doesn’t scale, as there’s no indication the other power Star filled bosses can even do what bowser did

There's also still Tier 4 feats without them even in the equation as well. Yoshi and Raphael for example.

If we accept the Raphael stuff as legit, then nobody really scales to it, it’s basically a self destruct move which characters don’t really scale to unless they Tanked it, which Yoshi didn’t

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Them going inside it directly is the reason they can take damage from it, the main and best way of beating the castle is by punting it directly into the black hole several times, it never kills them when they're directly inside (I think it only kills Bowser of he's already lost all his HP), they can even somehow physically grab onto the edges of the black holes to pull themselves out.


I honestly wouldn't use the BIS castle stuff at all, ignoring AP or whatever several games have portrayed Bowser as not needing organs to live (And Yoshis New Island shows he doesn't even need a physical body apparently), and he can survive having his bones scattered apart so him somehow being at risk of death via crushing makes no real sense, also he takes attacks from the dark power and it performs a feat way above the castle stuff. I'd view Bowser nearly being killed by the castles the same way I'd view Link being at risk of dying from collapsing castles even when he's powerful enough to fight and take attacks from beings like Ganon or Vaati, just Nintendo overestimating how deadly a castle is when compared to a lot of wackier stuff they make these characters do.

cough rock being thrown and a laser harming and killing a Tier 2 character cough

 

[DragonLord]

I honestly wouldn't use the BIS castle stuff at all, ignoring AP or whatever several games have portrayed Bowser as not needing organs to live (And Yoshis New Island shows he doesn't even need a physical body apparently), and he can survive having his bones scattered apart so him somehow being at risk of death via crushing makes no real sense

This really sounds more like Hax rather then saying his physical durability is higher, like a Zombie can live without organs, that doesn’t make them not vulnerable to regular weapons

 

[sanicspood]

All good things…

must come to an end.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm personally okay with the Low 2-C scaling getting downgraded; the only legit Low 2-C feat left is the Sammer Kingdom destruction, but if it's the only one left it seems prone to being considered an outlier.

I'd wait for others to talk about some of the AP stuff and definitely agree Tier 7 seems too low; Tier 6 sounds like it has some bearing for low end portrayals though. I agree the Kamek feat is viable and that it should scale to Kamek's magic bolts + enhancements. Also scaling to Power Stars having feats ranging from High 4-C to 3-C is viable for reasons stated in the OP. And they should legit scale to the 7 Star Children. As for the Black Hole argument, it should be noted that creating and closing black holes is still usable for AP, and it's still the AP of a Luma/Power Star via universal energy scaling. The Power Stars and Lumas universally use it for power and speed amps as well as the capacity for creating things. Including the "Go boom and a galaxy is formed". Saying that "Black holes oneshot the Mario Bros" is not an argument against durability scaling as black holes simply negate durability. But Mario, Luigi, Bowser, and Yoshi are shown to physically trade blows with each other, regardless whether or not are amplified by Power Stars, meaning their base powers cannot be too far behind a Luma or Power Stars tier.

I agree 100% the speed ratings are solid for a multitude of reasons. Lumas do have flight speed comparable to their combat speeds and reaction as they can do fancy loops and creatively perform stunt devil skills at said speeds. And some have reaction to their tackle attacks. Clown Cars also usually speed up to attack their enemies if anything, so it's all the more reason to be Massively FTL+ attack speed. Side note, the Green Star feats are also grossly lowballed, given the entirety of Super Mario Galaxy 1 is like one Earth Night in Mario's time, and it's extremely doubtful that 3 specific Power Stars took much longer than the rest of the game put together. Also, Green Stars have been shown to outpace however fast they launched Mario in the launch stars. And in fact, it's also implied the Green Stars are the galaxies themselves given that's how Pink Lumas are. They not only turn into their galaxies but they also cause the Launch Star to appear. So that also shows Lumas having similar reflexes to their flight speed. And of course, Mario and Bowser punch at comparable speeds regardless of Luma or Power Star enhancements.

I agree translation confusions are all over the place, and although old games have Nintendo of America being infamous for translations, writers often actually mention that Nintendo of America actually does have more rights than necessary; though that also might open doors for other NoA localizations.

 

[Dust_Collector]

This really sounds more like Hax rather then saying his physical durability is higher, like a Zombie can live without organs, that doesn’t make them not vulnerable to regular weapons

Not the point I was making at all. My point was that Bowser both before and after BIS, in several games is depicted as having some form of immorality that really makes anything involving the castles make sense in regards to killing him. If the game just portrayed it as knocking him out I'd be fine with people using it as an anti-feat (Even though I wouldn't agree), but the castle apparently being able to straight up kill him despite not completely crushing his skeleton into a fine paste makes the whole thing kinda weird in general.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

A self-destruct? Seriously? That is entirely speculation on your part and needs proof. Kamek is the one that empowered Rapheal so if anything it still would scale.

Anyways, Power Stars directly give Mario power and have given other things power. Their only feat of power was a Tier 4 feat. Why should we assume they output less or amp others less? Shoe an example of them having used less power cause otherwuse this would be inconsistent with how we rate other macguffins. I don't see how him having a ton means he doesn't scale when in both Galaxies and in 64 he fights bosses powered by Power Stars in base. And even if you argue he was amped in Galaxy which is still eh, Bowser fought him in base so it would still scale.

 

[Dust_Collector]

All good things…

First we get rid of tier 2 Zelda, now we're getting rid of tier 2 Mario. All good things really must come to an end, it truly has been a pleasure.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

If people don't act like hypocrites I could also probably heavily downgrade another gaming verse from Tier 2 because if similar arguments that have been used in these past Mario threads. In fact I may just try to do that just to prove a point

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Where’s my planet level Kirby, large planet Mega Man X, city level Sonic, etc.

 

[DragonLord]

Not the point I was making at all. My point was that Bowser both before and after BIS, in several games is depicted as having some form of immorality that really makes anything involving the castles make sense in regards to killing him. If the game just portrayed it as knocking him out I'd be fine with people using it as an anti-feat (Even though I wouldn't agree), but the castle apparently being able to straight up kill him despite not completely crushing his skeleton into a fine paste makes the whole thing kinda weird in general.

I mean, it does “knock him out”, the entire minigame is giving him adrenaline to get back up, even showing an animation of opening his eyes, and really, the idea is that eventually it will crush his skeletons and organs

A self-destruct? Seriously? That is entirely speculation on your part and needs proof.

okay, he gets defeated, and then explodes, hell the entire fight you have to use wooden poles to even damage him so Yoshi isn’t even fighting directly

and really, as the creation feats page outlines, you’d need proof it scales to Kamek’s offensive magic

Anyways, Power Stars directly give Mario power and have given other things power. Their only feat of power was a Tier 4 feat. Why should we assume they output less or amp others less?

because the users have no feats with them, they don’t even do the creation feat at all, the only person who did it is Bowser, who you face with multiple stars (and really there’s no indication the Amp is on the level of the creation feat, I’d say the shown feats would actually contradict that)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, for the love of Pong, can we please avoid all these whataboutisms and at least get lighter on the memes?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also, for the love of AKM sama, can we please avoid all these whataboutisms and at least get lighter on the memes?

Fixed it for you

Anyways I will watch right now, since I am neutral.

And yes, Whataboutisms are not an argument and the memes do not need to be here.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Why are we assuming that the other Power Stars aren't comparablr to each other? The other users use them for power. Their only power feat is Tier 4. Seriously what is this argument?

The only possible merit I'll give you is the "timeframe" argument. But I believe creation feats are treated as being done within a scalable way unless evidence or context supports otherwise. If they weren't then I can think of a big verse where the creator's feat wasn't given a specified timeframe that would need to be revised.

But I mean, the Painting Worlds containing real stars can't even be proved IIRC so really they should only have scaling from Lumas and maybe if the black hole feat from Galaxy is usable or not.

 

[DragonLord]

Why are we assuming that the other Power Stars aren't comparablr to each other? The other users use them for power. Their only power feat is Tier 4. Seriously what is this argument?

Well first The “Power” Feat is a Creation Feat, something that needs proof it scales to the creation feat in the first place

And second, they just don’t have the feats or statements that they can be comparable, the creation feat is not even directly shown to be casual, and the feats seem to be on the low end for Base to where it would be more accurate to assume that Power Star Users such as King Bob-Omb in 64 probably isn’t using Cosmic power when he gets hurt by being dropped to the ground, at best Bowser can use the 4-A Power, but Mario faces him while having a ton of power stars himself

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Ahh, the "AP needs to be shown through AoE" argument. There it is.

Yeah, I don't have to comment on that, so I won't.

 

[MistaClean]

Where’s my planet level Kirby, large planet Mega Man X, city level Sonic, etc.

10-A Punch-Out FTW!

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

Honestly this we’ve all have been trying to downgrade Mario for legitimately no reason other than, “Hey look, Mario just got hurt by a mushroom!!! Even though he has consistent tier 4+ and tier 2 feats that wouldn’t be possible to do or tank if he were any weaker, let’s ignore that and give him tier 9!!!!!” Honestly, I don’t have the time and energy to put in what I have to say for all of us who put so much effort into having factual proof of Mario being tier 4 and tier 2, if we’re going to be ignored. We’ve legitimately went over everything to prove all these tier 4 to tier 2 feats in the past CRTs. I am surprised at the ignorance of that and disappointed at everyone going right towards the argument of Mario should be downgraded.

If we’re going to downgrade Mario, whatever anymore. I’m not going to get all angered up and raise my pitchfork and fight. If Mario gets downgraded, let’s downgrade literally every video game character accordingly. That’s how unfair it is. This is the only serious post I’ll make. Whatever happens to Mario at this point will be irrelevant to me anymore.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Would you also agree to a Tier 9 downgrade for similar reasons?

 

[Seol404]

I was not prepared for this to be dropped right now, and would have preferred this been done later, but here we go I guess.

As far as low ends go Mario has been KO'd by feats ranging from 9-B to 8-C, I don't think it's fair to go with the low ends, so I'd rather not go with that. However, the anti-feats for a cosmic level Mario are so staggeringly high I think it's absurd to place him there, not only that but placing him above Tier 6 would result in Mario and Bowser having to scale ABOVE amped Bowser which I find ridiculous, so unless it's decided to drop scaling from the series entirely which I doubt will happen, Tier 6+ Mario should happen. DKs Moon feat shouldn't scale to the Mario cast and DKC should be given a separate key, plus its ludicrously stronger than the most powerful punch Bowser ever did (Which he did when heavily amped amped to the point where he was stronger than a character who could one-shot him in base)

For Tier 7 we have the bye bye canon feat, which was calc'd at 294 kilos (The force of which is taken casually), the moon cannon feat, calc'd at at 2.93 megatons, and if you want to accept the old Castle Punt calc, that's also in the megaton range, as is the Stadium Explosion feat calc'd by Death Battle to further back up Low 7-C to low 6-C ratings (Low 6-C being supported by Dark Bowsers storm, which Bowser is forced to struggle against, while most of the Tier 7 feats are casual). This rating is probably the most solid in my view, as it avoids the redundancy of characters scaling to their own amped forms, while not having them at 9-B getting knocked out by falls something that is very common in the series.

 

[sanicspood]

we are really arguing town level mario? wow......

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Bye Bye Cannon is a gag feat. We can't prove they travel the entire world. There are plenty of occasions where one character goes off one side of thr screen and appears at the opposite ends and they were just gags. Bowser does this during the intro to Superstar Saga on his ship for example.

Bob-Omb feat doesn't have a provable timeframe which would signifcantly effect results.

Dark Bowser feat is a passive storm that can't be proven to scale to physicals at all. Bowser just tanks some wind. That's barely 9-B.

Castle Punt is a gag, and the Stadium feat showed no damage indicative of Tier 7 power when the stadium was intact.

Also where is it stated that these feats you're referencing as "their strongest" were their strongest? Is that just your assumption?

Are there any others?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

All the Tier 7 stuff is basically just the "I stepped on an ant" scenario. And the Moon bouncing feat still has better reason to be prioritized than the mech launching feat. Also, Mario and Bowser being comparable to their own amps is actually a lot more consistent than them being lower than the amps. It just means they don't really need them for physicals to begin with.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I honestly didn't want to say anything on this CRT since I knew it'll be controversial but this feels like another example of the goalposts being moved and I honestly think it's pretty (likely unintentionally) insulting to quite a few Mario supporters imo.

I heavily disagree with below tier 4 (base) cast members (or at least star child level characters) FRA and it seems like the high-end AP feats are getting unfairly scrutinized/dismissed (I've defended this Wiki being stricter on popular verses recently but this feels like way too much) add in the fact this CRT may go through not because the arguments for it are compelling and have convinced the opposition but because most of the opposition are just too tired/jaded to debate against the CRT and it kinda rubs me the wrong way tbh.

No disrespect to DRB and those who support the downgrade (in terms of wanting a more accurate portrayal of the Mario Bros from their PoV) but I can't in good faith agree with the premise of this CRT plus it may cause some bad blood in the future.

Long story short, I more or less disagree with the downgrades and I feel like this CRT (alongside a couple others) could've been done more tactfully towards the Mario Bros and it's supporters.

This will be my one and only comment on this CRT, whatever happens... happens I guess?

 

[Seol404]

All the Tier 7 stuff is basically just the "I stepped on an ant" scenario. And the Moon bouncing feat still has better reason to be prioritized than the mech launching feat. Also, Mario and Bowser being comparable to their own amps is actually a lot more consistent than them being lower than the amps. It just means they don't really need them for physicals to begin with.

It seems odd that we would prioritize a feat from a game far enough removed from the Mario series that it doesn't even have Mario in the title over a feat in a game that does, but it should also be noted that even if we are to go this route, the Moon Punch feat isn't even casual, despite often being argued as such. DKs hand is visibly swollen from performing the feat, which implies it required a high amount of effort (And please I don't want to hear "that's just a gag" being used to dismiss this, if we are going to do that, every feat in the series can be dismissed with this.)

Mario and Bowser scaling to their amped forms is just, um what? How does that even work? The whole point of an amp is that it makes you stronger so like, no it's ridiculous to suggest they scale to their own amps.

Since I do agree a lot of the Low 7-B feats are incredibly casual, I think the best option is to have "At Least Low 7-B, possibly/likely X", the X being what we should be discussing

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The Tier 7 feats can also be dismissed via similar reasons y'all gave in other threads. Please acknowledge that.

It would not be the most consistent.tier. Neither would 6.

 

[DaReaperMan]

DK has a key for Donkey Kong Country. As he is right now that DK can't scale to anyone but those in the series.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

It's just really funny that suddenly DK and Wario are being considered now when it supports your arguments but were argued to be separated for whatever reason when it didn't.

Y'all wanna stay using "he struggled" and "felt pain" for these anti-feats/lower-ends but those examples don't hold any more validity than legitimately saying Luigi struggled to lift a radish so he doesn't reach past Tier 10.

Or that saying because Mario and Luigi are heavily weighed down by their KO'ed brother and can barely dodge obstacles that suddenly their Lifting Strength is invalidated.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Once again, DK and Wario have keys for their own series. A thread to remove them has already failed once.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The storm calculation from Bowser's Inside Story was originally calculated as Island level, but I heard the size of the Mushroom Kingdom revealed in Super Mario Odyssey might give that a buff from what DRB told me in DMs. Also, the OP did show evidence of universal power sources that also enhance physicals.

Also, it's included in the OP that they we might just remove the keys here and now if worst case scenario happens.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Doesn't have proof of scaling to physicals...

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The castle is a gag anyways what am I talking about. It's way more consistent Mario characters are only like Class 5-100 at best.

I mean, what other feats display Class M?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Pretty sure we’ve accepted the castle feat for quite some time, Mario’s Class G Lifting Strength has been based on that forever.

Anyway, are there any other 4-A feats besides the painting realms? We should probably insert those onto the profiles

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Just because it's accepted doesn't mean it can't be changed. If we want to argue "consistency" then the feat should be yeeted as there's not been an LS feat close to that IIRC

It's only being fair. I'm using the same reasons the OP is.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

As for 4-A feats, I don't think there are any more.

Yoshi's Island is likely hax and range and the Wario one I thought of before of the world in the music box with stars I'm not sure scales to anyone's physicals and we can't prove those stars are legit either.

Unless I'm missing a feat I don't think there's much else.

 

[Seol404]

Everything that isn't Low 2-C is a gag according to you, please come up with more constructive reasoning for not accepting these feats when there are dozens of them.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Missing the point...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, I think Class G lifting strength can stay, There are still plenty of Castle sized characters and Mountain sized characters Mario Characters can wrestle. Not to mention outlier is getting thrown around too much, I do not see how a casual low end feat would be an outlier for lifting strength.