Sun wukong/Journey to the west CRT

[Udlmaster]

that just implies that the infinity was hyperbolic

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

 

[Udlmaster]

So, first use of infinite:
"We are free to do just as we like -- we are infinitely lucky."

Well, this will be a beautiful journey.

Okay, you trying to prove it's flowery language, okay, so how is that statement wrong?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Okay, you trying to prove it's flowery language, okay, so how is that statement wrong?

The fact that being infinitely lucky is by nature hyperbolic.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'll go in more depth with all the statements gathered.

 

[Udlmaster]

The fact that being infinitely lucky is by nature hyperbolic.

Prove it, and I know you can't.

 

[Darksmash]

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

because the sands in the ganga are finite,just an extremely huge number

 

[Greatsage13th]

This is what @Mariogoods found out earlier in the thread

(The above contents are from Chapter 2)
Given that Sun Wukong has impressive anti-death methods even in JttW verse, it is safe to assume that Sun Wukong can prevent attack ignoring dua even in JttW cosmology destruction and reconstruction level. "七十二般變化" (well-known as "seven-two transformations" but I'll use "seven-two bianhua" instead. There is a theory suggesting that number in JttW, especially the number about some Taoism and Buddhism stuff, has the implicit meaning. "Seven-two", for example, could be consider as "eight multiplied by nine". "Eight" could be considered as the maximum even number while "nine" could be considered as the maximum odd number. [From 1 to 9]. It is suggested as the alternative method to say "infinite number" without full of "infinite".)

For current discussion, I think the current profile still needs improvement since JttW could be considered as collection of past stories but with authors' personal thinking. (If I want to explain why, then I may be better writing an academic paper)

 

[Darksmash]

...
speechless

 

[Mariogoods]

Propitious vapours filled Paradise,
Rainbows surround the Venerable One.
The Western Paradise, known as the best,
Is ruled by the dharma King of non-phenomenon.
Black apes are always offering fruit,
Deer hold flowers in their mouths;
Blue phoenixes dance,
Coloured birds call;
Sacred turtles offer long life,
Immortal cranes present magic mushrooms.
Here they peacefully enjoy the Pure Land of the Jetavana Park,
The infinite realms of the Dragon Palace.
Every day flowers bloom,
Fruit is always ripe.
Through practicing silence they return to the truth,
Achieving reality by contemplation.
There is no birth nor death;
They neither wax nor wane.
Mists follow them as they come and go;
Untouched by heat or cold, they do not notice the years.

瑞靄漫天竺，虹光擁世尊。西方稱第一，無相法王門。常見玄猿獻果，麋鹿啣花 ﹔青鸞舞，彩鳳鳴﹔靈龜捧壽，仙鶴噙芝。安享淨土祗園，受用龍宮法界。日日 花開，時時果熟。習靜歸真，參禪果正。不滅不生，不增不減。煙霞縹緲隨來往 ，寒暑無侵不記年。

The original text uses word 法界, which is likely a translation of "dharmadhatu". The translator is likely believing that the concept "dharmadhatu" is too religious for normal people to understand or avoid controversy. But IDK why.

One day, as the Buddha dwelt in the Thunder Monastery on the Vulture Peak, he called together all the other Buddhas, Arhats, guardian deities, Bodhisattvas, Vajrapanis, monks and nuns and said, “As we are beyond time, I don’t know how long it has been since the crafty ape was subdued and Heaven pacified, but by earthly reckoning it must be about five hundred years.

佛祖居於靈山大雷音寶剎之間。一日，喚聚諸佛、阿羅、揭諦、菩薩、金剛、比
丘僧尼等眾曰：「自伏乖猿安天之後，我處不知年月，料凡間有半千年矣。

I have to say that "我處不知年月" can be understood as "our place is beyond time". The original text could be translated as "our place does not know the years and mouths". Given that they are Buddhism deities, it makes sense. Especially given that Buddha has the all-knowing abilities in JttW.

Evidence 1 (In Chapter 7 too):

如來駕住祥雲，對眾道：「我以甚深般若， 遍觀三界。根本性原，畢竟寂滅。同虛空相，一無所有。殄伏乖猴，是事莫識。 名生死始，法相如是。」

The Tathagata brought his propitious cloud to a halt and addressed them thus:
"With my deep insight
I surveyed the Three Worlds.
The origin of nature
Is ultimately emptiness,
Like the great void,
Containing nothing at all.
The subjection of this evil monkey
Was a mystery beyond understanding.
It is called the beginning of life and death:
Such is the appearance of things.

Evidence 2 (In Chapter 58)

我佛合掌道：「觀音尊者，你看那兩個行者，誰是真假？」菩薩道：「前日在 弟子荒境，委不能辨。他又至天宮、地府，亦俱難認。特來拜告如來，千萬與 他辨明辨明。」如來笑道：「汝等法力廣大，只能普閱周天之事，不能遍識周 天之物，亦不能廣會周天之種類也。」

To this the Buddha replied with a smile, "You all have very great dharma powers, but you can only scan
everything that happens under the sky. You cannot know all the creatures and categories under the sky."

Seems that every Buddhism deities have all-seeing abilities.

I'll be off for some time.

 

[Greatsage13th]

yes they do

 

[Greatsage13th]

@Mariogoods can you translate this part of chapter 95?

The Great Way: Journey to the West

As he wheeled his iron cudgel the Great Sage looked carefully at her and saw that one end of her club was thick and one end thin, just like the lead of a trip-hammer used for hulling with a mortar, so he gave a furious roar and shouted, “Beast! What’s that implement you’re holding? How dare you fight me with it? Surrender at once or I’ll smash your skull with a single blow from my cudgel.”

Grinding her teeth, the evil spirit replied, “You don’t know about this weapon of mine, so listen while I tell you:

Its immortal root was a piece of mutton-fat jade,
Which took countless years to be worked into shape.
It was already mine when chaos was separated;
When the primal disorder was sorted out I came first.
Its origins cannot be compared with mere mortal things;
Its nature has always belonged to the highest heaven.
Embodying the golden light and the four images
With the auspicious vapors of the Five Elements and the Three Primaries.
Long did it live with me in the Moon Palace,

 

[Udlmaster]

because the sands in the ganga are finite,just an extremely huge number

Not what the early Buddhists thought, what we know now is irrelevant, it's from their perspective or what they believe when writing.

 

[Darksmash]

Not what the early Buddhists thought, what we know now is irrelevant, it's from their perspective or what they believe when writing.

...death of the author?

 

[Greatsage13th]

its either unknown or high 3A

 

[Darksmash]

arent there any other quantifiable feats?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So then, let's get going.

The very concept of "flowery language cannot be argued for unless the author states it is flowery language" is a so insanely, immensely, infinitely off the walls take that I cannot for the life of me believe someone actually wishes to argue it.
It's not a thing. You can't say that. There are standards on the wiki, and flowery statements were thrown out the window for the full decade the wiki has been going.

All I can say to that is, no. And if this is further argued, I will make a thread for it, ping the moderators, and we all know they will laugh the idea out of the wiki.



Now, with that either about to be moved to a short live thread, or done with, on to whether A Journey to The West is hyperbolic or not. To which I say, yes, goddamn yes, it is. Sun Wukong has a whole point where empty compliments and an overly grandiose title fools him. He is absolutely self-centered, and most deities have a "holier than thou" personality.

The monkeys claim to be infinitely lucky, because they are not bound by laws of humans, phenixes or unicorns. This is the most obvious case of hyperbole I can think of. They aren't Timothy Dexter's, they are merely free. They specifically say that the sheer fact of being free from rules and laws is infinitely lucky.

Likewise, "infinite mercy" just for being a faithful teacher, "infinite murderous" is used to describe an inanimate weapon (and personification, like most other literally devices, is literally figurative and not literal [see what I did there?]), infinitely divine and miraculous for how someone appears to an observes is subjective, infinitely rare, infinitely mighty wisdom, "Infinitely Dragon Sage King of the Green Wave Pool on the Ragged Rock Mountain", infinitely lovely pavilion, and "infinitely many are the countries he has visited".

Lookimg at these and claiming they are not hyperbolic exaggerations is honestly baffling to me.

You can't go burden of proof as both "they are literal" and "they are metaphorical" are positive claims, and both are objectively possible. Occam's Razor in no way points towards them being literal. And the wiki assumes the least power interpretation unless a reason otherwise is given.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ricsi-viragosi @YuriAkuto @Zaratthustra

What are the summarised conclusions here so far?

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I agree with Ricsi about flowery language and regarding that regenerating avatars is not the same as regenerating one's true self.

Anyway, if you need help with a potential 1-A evaluation, somebody should explain the arguments in an easy to understand manner, after which I or somebody else can call Ultima Reality here.

 

[Planck69]

The 1-A stuff is valid in the same way Archie Comics having CM references makes them Tier 0. It's just extrapolated from actual Buddhism and Taoism.

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay, so to summarize your bible: "Because unwritten website rules say so".

So, you can't prove it.

 

[Greatsage13th]

just put wukong as unknown for now until @Mariogoods found new info

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ability additions:

• Martial Arts
• Genius Intelligence (highly knowledgeable martial artist, a skilled doctor).
• Self-Sustenance Types 1 and 2 (Survived with nothing but molten copper and doesn't need oxygen). As a Buddha, all three types (by virtue of NEP).
• Can talk with animals (Noted here)
• Enhanced Senses (Can hear what is said all the way to Heaven or the Underworld, can see 300 miles, can still sense his surroundings while asleep)
• Elemental Intangibility via turning into mist
• Extrasensory Perception, he can sense evil.
• Telekinesis
• Water Manipulation (Can ward of and split an ocean)
• Pain Tolerance (Showed no pain when cutting himself open and pulling his own guts out)
• Can still fight after being reduced to just his soul
• Medical knowledge (Could treat sick people).

To be removed/downgraded:

• Regeneration: Can regrow his head, but was never turned to ashes.
• Low 1-C (Being larger than the multiverse, and seeing it as a disk in ones palm, is not enough for the tier jump)
• The tiers are reliant on statements of infinite power, so some feats need to be found.
• Spatial Manipulation (Falls under NPI)
• Probability Manipulation
• Conceptual Manipulation (Can hit and harm abstract beings yes, but never directly went for concepts)
• Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation (The only one that could be argued was him using a loop-hole to evade the thing, not surviving it. Furthermore, we have no reason to believe it would have failed if he were to be actually cooked into an elixir)
• Resistance to Seal (Nothing like that was given, just goes off the assumption that Heaven can do it and he resists. The fact that he was stuck in a cauldron for 49 days and only escaped when it was unlocked does not help much with that)

 

[Greatsage13th]

agreed

 

[Greatsage13th]

but i'm pretty sure the abstract beings in the verse feared wukong despite knowing they existing as mere abstracts with no physical forms

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

For 1-A, it is an argument for the story referencing a 1-A theology, though this has been previously rejected for other verses, so it is unlikely to work unless more blatant examples are given.

 

[Greatsage13th]

also give him resistances to fate, death and concept due to removing his name from hells registry that embodies death and causes people to die in fixed point in their lives with no escape.

for example he was supposed or fated to die in 300+ years despite being immortal by old age. which pressured him to wipe his name and his fellow monkeys from hell's registry cauing them to become inevitably immortal

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

also give him resistances to fate, death and concept due to removing his name from hells registry that embodies death and causes people to die in fixed point in their lives with no escape.

for example he was supposed or fated to die in 300+ years despite being immortal by old age. which pressured him to wipe his name and his fellow monkeys from hell's registry cauing them to become inevitably immortal

That is type 5 immortality.

 

[Greatsage13th]

For 1-A, it is an argument for the story referencing a 1-A theology, though this has been previously rejected for other verses, so it is unlikely to work unless more blatant examples are given.

we are not going to talk about this since it's settled

 

[Greatsage13th]

and he gained an additional immortality that is seperate from hell's registry

“Let Sun Wukong come forward,” said the Jade Emperor. “We do now proclaim you Great Sage Equaling Heaven. Your rank is now very high. Let there be no more mischief from you.” The monkey simply chanted “na-a-aw” to express his thanks to the Emperor. The Jade Emperor then ordered the two officials in charge of public works, Zhang and Lu, to build a residence for the Great Sage Equaling Heaven to the left of the Peach Orchard. In the residence there were to be two offices: a Tranquillity Office and a Calm Divinity Office. Both these offices were to have immortal clerks and senior and junior assistants. He then told the Star Lords of the Constellation Five to escort Sun Wukong to his post, and in addition gave him two bottles of imperial wine and ten golden flowers, and admonished him to settle down and keep out of mischief. The Monkey King accepted the order and went that same day with the Star Lords of the Constellation Five to his residence, where he opened the bottles of wine and drained them dry with the help of all present. He then saw the star officials off and returned to his own palace. From then on he lived in happiness and content, and enjoyed untrammelled pleasure in the Palace. Truly,

His immortal name was for ever inscribed in the register of eternal life,
To be transmitted for ten thousand ages, free of the wheel of rebirth.(also known as the wheel that predestines all abstracts and living things to reincarnate such as zhu bajie and sand friar)

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Ricsi's evaluation makes sense. I also agree with Planck69 about that we cannot automatically scale from religious philosophy, only from what was stated in the work itself.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I think that Ricsi's evaluation makes sense. I also agree with Planck69 about that we cannot automatically scale from religious philosophy, only from what was stated in the work itself.

world of darkness has transduality type 4 due to the mention of wuji with no further explanation

 

[Planck69]

Then that should get nuked, pronto.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

world of darkness has transduality type 4 due to the mention of wuji with no further explanation

I took five minutes and found several quotes for characters making realities unbound by concepts, warping and being outside of concepts, and transcending realities and their concepts.

 

[Planck69]

Isn't conceptual transcendence Type 3? Else even Meng Hao would have Type 4. But this isn't a place for discussing WoD anyway.

 

[Greatsage13th]

i'll make a crt for that matter so for now i'm tempted to make wukong at least 4A by fighting multiple constellations

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

There is no way you could prove that these constellations are masses of burning gas several lightyears apart, unfortunately.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So, question. What is the context for the following(?):

Reality Warping, Sealing, Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation

It is in his Buddha key.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Aren't the Gods spirits of planets and stars rather than stars themselves? Even then Buddhism had stars at a very small size (The smallest being 200 metres) so I doubt 4A is possible.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Wukong's speed would also have the problem of scaling to constellations.

 

[Greatsage13th]

...........High 6A to 5B?