Sun wukong/Journey to the west CRT

[Greatsage13th]

Naṭa said, “When Chaos first divided, that which was pure and light became Heaven, and that which was heavy and turbid became Earth. Heaven, then, is a round mass of clear ether that nonetheless supports the Jasper Palace and the Heavenly ramparts. In principle, therefore, Heaven cannot be stored up. However, the matter of Pilgrim Sun’s accompaniment of the Tang Monk journeying westward to acquire scriptures is itself a source of blessings great as Mount Tai and deep as the sea. Today we should help him to succeed.”

Heaven is a round mass of ether.

noice

 

[Planck69]

the jade emperor is vastly superior to pangu.

Moved by Pan Gu’s creation, the Three Emperors put the world in order and the Five Rulers laid down the moral code. The world was then divided into four great continents.

it states that they were impressed by pangu's creation and weren't suprised by pangu's ability to create duality instead which i doubt pangu would be strongest character in JTTW if they weren't at least shocked or suprised

I guess Gogeta now has EE.....

 

[Greatsage13th]

Being stronger than someone doesn't grant you their power. Otherwise most marvel high tier is just composite character.

wasnt pangu always below most gods in the hierarchy

 

[Greatsage13th]

I guess Gogeta now has EE.....

except pangu isnt really stronger or equal to the ruler of heaven

 

[Planck69]

Then what are you even saying when you say the Jade Emperor is superior? Either way, being superior to someone doesn't grant you their powers.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Then what are you even saying when you say the Jade Emperor is superior? Either way, being superior to someone doesn't grant you their powers.

Pretty much almost every single god in the JTTW novel are extremely similar only the names and concepts they possess are different for example the constellations, the star ketu, truelord erlang, nezha, lord laozi doesn't have a massive difference in abilities beside AP , speed and other physical stats

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

"They are not so different besides how fast they are, how strong they Hut what concepts they embody, and other physical stats."

 

[Zaratthustra]

Without clear statements, you cant put Powers from someone to another.

Would you say the other Gods have Wukong unique Immortality or that they have the 72 transformation or have his eyes gained in the cauldron? No. Without statements, no one will have the same Powers.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Without clear statements, you cant put Powers from someone to another.

Would you say the other Gods have Wukong unique Immortality or that they have the 72 transformation or have his eyes gained in the cauldron? No. Without statements, no one will have the same Powers.

Didn't buddha control the formless yin and yang?

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Are we arguing for concept Manipulation?

 

[Greatsage13th]

No

 

[Deleted member 2530]

We have heard how the Dyadic Models which manifest themselves in Heaven and Earth in the production of life are represented by images, whereas the invisible powers of the four seasons bring about transformation of things through the hidden action of heat and cold. By scanning Heaven and Earth, therefore, even the most ignorant may perceive their rudimentary laws. Even the thorough understanding of yin and yang, however, has seldom enabled the worthy and wise to comprehend fully their ultimate principle. It is easy to recognize that Heaven and Earth do contain yin and yang because there are images. It is difficult to comprehend fully how yin and yang pervade Heaven and Earth because the forces themselves are invisible. That images may manifest the minute is a fact that does not perplex even the foolish, whereas forms hidden in what is invisible are what confuses even the learned.

How much more difficult it is, therefore, to understand the way of Buddhism, which exalts the void, uses the dark, and exploits the silent in order to succor the myriad grades of living things and exercise control over the entire world. Its spiritual authority is the highest, and its divine potency has no equal. Its magnitude impregnates the entire cosmos; there is no space so tiny that it does not permeate it. Birthless and deathless, it does not age after a thousand kalpas; half-hidden and half-manifest, it brings one hundred blessings even now. A wondrous way most mysterious, those who follow it cannot know its limit. A law flowing silent and deep, those who draw on it cannot fathom its source. How, therefore, could those benighted ordinary mortals.

Now, this great Religion arose in the Land of the West. It soared to the court of the Han period in the form of a radiant dream, which flowed with its mercy to enlighten the Eastern territory. In antiquity, during the time when form and abstraction were clearly distinguished, the words of the Buddha, even before spreading, had already established their goodly influence. In a generation when he was both frequently active in and withdrawn from the world, the people beheld his virtue and honored it. But when he returned to Nirvāṇa and generations passed by, the golden images concealed his true form and did not reflect the light of the universe. The beautiful paintings, though unfolding lovely portraits, vainly held up the figure of thirty-two marks. Nonetheless his subtle doctrines spread far and wide to save men and beasts from the three unhappy paths, and his traditions were widely proclaimed to lead all creatures through the ten stages toward Buddha-hood. Moreover, the Buddha made scriptures, which could be divided into the Great and the Small Vehicles. He also possessed the Law, which could be transmitted either in the correct or in the deviant method.

Our priest Xuanzang, a Master of the Law, is a leader within the Gate of Law. Devoted and intelligent since his youth, he realized early the merit of the three forms of emptiness. When grown he comprehended the principles of the spiritual, including first the practice of the four forms of patience. Neither the pine in the wind nor the moon mirrored in water can compare with his purity and radiance. Even the dew of Heaven and luminous gems cannot surpass the clarity and refinement of his person. His intelligence encompassed even those elements which seemingly had no relations, and his spirit could perceive that which had yet to take visible forms. Having transcended the lure of the six senses, he was such an outstanding figure that in all the past he had no rival. He concentrated his mind on the internal verities, mourning all the time the mutilation of the correct doctrines. Worrying over the mysteries, he lamented that even the most profound treatises had errors.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Just check here

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also I believe laws are involved here

 

[Greatsage13th]

Seems like my point is proven. I'll check tomorrow

 

[Mariogoods]

Ability additions:

• Martial Arts
• Genius Intelligence (highly knowledgeable martial artist, a skilled doctor).
• Self-Sustenance Types 1 and 2 (Survived with nothing but molten copper and doesn't need oxygen). As a Buddha, all three types (by virtue of NEP).
• Can talk with animals (Noted here)
• Enhanced Senses (Can hear what is said all the way to Heaven or the Underworld, can see 300 miles, can still sense his surroundings while asleep)
• Elemental Intangibility via turning into mist
• Extrasensory Perception, he can sense evil.
• Telekinesis
• Water Manipulation (Can ward of and split an ocean)
• Pain Tolerance (Showed no pain when cutting himself open and pulling his own guts out)
• Can still fight after being reduced to just his soul
• Medical knowledge (Could treat sick people).

To be removed/downgraded:

• Regeneration: Can regrow his head, but was never turned to ashes.
• Low 1-C (Being larger than the multiverse, and seeing it as a disk in ones palm, is not enough for the tier jump)
• The tiers are reliant on statements of infinite power, so some feats need to be found.
• Spatial Manipulation (Falls under NPI)
• Probability Manipulation
• Conceptual Manipulation (Can hit and harm abstract beings yes, but never directly went for concepts)
• Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation (The only one that could be argued was him using a loop-hole to evade the thing, not surviving it. Furthermore, we have no reason to believe it would have failed if he were to be actually cooked into an elixir)
• Resistance to Seal (Nothing like that was given, just goes off the assumption that Heaven can do it and he resists. The fact that he was stuck in a cauldron for 49 days and only escaped when it was unlocked does not help much with that)

I also suggested Danmaku (Chapter 4):

這場鬥，真個是地動山搖，好殺也： 六臂哪吒太子，天生美石猴王，相逢真對手，正遇本源流。那一個蒙差來下界 ，這一個欺心鬧斗牛。斬妖寶劍鋒芒快，砍妖刀狠鬼神愁﹔縛妖索子如飛蟒， 降妖大杵似狼頭﹔火輪掣電烘烘艷，往往來來滾繡毬。大聖三條如意棒，前遮 後擋運機謀。苦爭數合無高下，太子心中不肯休。把那六件兵器多教變，百千 萬億照頭丟。猴王不懼呵呵笑，鐵棒翻騰自運籌。以一化千千化萬，滿空亂舞 賽飛虯。諕得各洞妖王都閉戶，遍山鬼怪盡藏頭。神兵怒氣雲慘慘，金箍鐵棒 響颼颼。那壁廂，天丁吶喊人人怕﹔這壁廂，猴怪搖旗個個憂。發狠兩家齊鬥 勇，不知那個剛強那個柔。

三太子與悟空各騁神威，鬥了個三十回合。那太子六般兵，變做千千萬萬﹔孫 悟空金箍棒，變作萬萬千千。半空中似雨點流星，不分勝負。原來悟空手疾眼快，正在那混亂之時，他拔下一根毫毛，叫聲：「變！」就變 做他的本相，手挺著棒，演著哪吒﹔他的真身，卻一縱，趕至哪吒腦後，著左 膊上一棒打來。哪吒正使法間，聽得棒頭風響，急躲閃時，不能措手，被他著 了一下，負痛逃走。收了法，把六件兵器依舊歸身，敗陣而回。

It was a great fight, and it made the earth shake and the mountains tremble:
Six−armed Prince Nezha
Heaven−born Monkey King:
Well−matched opponents,
Both in the same class.
One sent down to the lower world on a mission,
The other priding himself as a fighting bull.
Fast moves the point of the demon−beheading sword,
And evil spirits fear the demon−hacking cutlass,
The demon−binding rope flies like a dragon,
While the demon−quelling pestle has the head of a wolf,
The fire−wheel flashes with lightning,
And the embroidered ball shoots everywhere.
The Great Sage's three As−You−Will cudgels
Block and parry with consummate skill.
Though many hard−fought rounds prove inconclusive,
The prince refuses to call the battle off;
Making his six weapons multiply in number,
He throws them in their millions at the Monkey King's head,
But the Monkey King, fearless, roars with laughter
As his iron clubs whirl and think for themselves.
One becomes a thousand; one thousand, ten;
Their wild dance fills the sky as if with dragons.
All the demon kings shut their gates in terror;
Every goblin on the mountain finds some place to hide.
Cloud−black, the anger of the heavenly troops;
Whistling like the wind, the gold−banded cudgels.
On the one side,
The blood−curdling war−cries of the heavenly host.
On the other,
The spine−chilling banners of the monkey fiends.
Both parties are equal in fighting courage;
Neither could be said to be the winner.
Prince Nezha and Sun Wukong both used their divine powers to the full as they fought thirty rounds. When
the six weapons of the prince turned into thousands and tens of thousands, so did Sun Wukong's gold−banded
cudgel. The air was filled as if with drops of rain or shooting stars, and there was no way of telling who was
winning. As Sun Wukong was deft of hand and quick of eye, he plucked one of the hairs from his body in the
midst of the fray and shouted "Change!" It changed into his own double to mislead Nezha while his real self
leapt round till he was behind Nezha and struck at his left shoulder. Nezha was in the middle of performing a
spell when he heard the whistle of the cudgel through the air and twisted away as fast as he could. But he was
unable to avoid the blow and had to flee wounded. He brought his magic to an end, put his six weapons away,
reverted to his true appearance, and abandoned the field of battle in defeat.

Seems that Wukong can perform other attacks while using bullet hell.

Not all flowey words are applicable, but if it is about a religious word, then it is more likely applicable, especially it's about interaction between gods.

Possibly a evidence for Wukong to resist Fate:
(Chapter 11)

約有片時，秦廣王拱手而進言曰：「涇河鬼龍告陛下許救而反殺之，何也？」太 宗道：「朕曾夜夢老龍求救，實是允他無事。不期他犯罪當刑，該我那人曹官魏 徵處斬。朕宣魏徵在殿著棋，不知他一夢而斬。這是那人曹官出沒神機，又是那 龍王犯罪當死，豈是朕之過也？」十王聞言，伏禮道：「自那龍未生之前，南斗 星死簿上已註定該遭殺於人曹之手，我等早已知之。但只是他在此折辨，定要陛 下來此，三曹對案。是我等將他送入輪藏，轉生去了。今又有勞陛下降臨，望乞 恕我催促之罪。」

A moment later the King of Qinguang clasped his hands together and said, "Why is it that the ghost dragon of
the River Jing has brought a case against Your Majesty, saying that he was executed despite your promise to
save him?"
"I had a dream that an old dragon came to ask me to save him," replied Taizong, "and I did in fact promise
that he would come to no harm; but as it turned out his crime was a capital one, for which he was due to be
beheaded by the minister in the personnel department, Wei Zheng. We summoned Wei Zheng to come and
play chess in the palace, and I never knew that he had beheaded the dragon in a dream. This happened because
that officer can come and go miraculously, and also because the dragon king had committed a crime for which
he deserved to die. We were in no way to blame for his death."
When the Ten Kings heard his statement they bowed and replied, "Even before that dragon was born it was
written in the registers of the Southern Pole Star that he was destined to die at the hands of a personnel
minister, as we have long been aware. But because he has been arguing about the matter we had to send for
Your Majesty. When the case has been argued between the three orders we shall send him to the Revolving
Prayer−wheel for reincarnation. We hope that Your Majesty will forgive us for forcing you to attend."

Southern Pole Star is able to use unavoidable fate stuff, seemingly overlap the free will. Southern Pole Star has attended the war against Wukong and.... Given that Wukong is born out of their exception, Wukong may have resistance to fate too.

 

[Udlmaster]

world of darkness has transduality type 4 due to the mention of wuji with no further explanation

It had a lot of explanation lol

 

[Mariogoods]

JttW may frequently use light stuff to show Wukong's potential strength:
Evidence 1 (Chapter 1)

蓋自開闢以來，每受天真地秀，日精月華，感之既久，遂有靈通之意。內育仙胞 ，一日迸裂，產一石卵，似圓毬樣大。因見風，化作一個石猴，五官俱備，四肢 皆全。便就學爬學走，拜了四方。目運兩道金光，射沖斗府。驚動高天上聖大慈 仁者玉皇大天尊玄穹高上帝，駕座金闕雲宮靈霄寶殿，聚集仙卿，見有金光燄燄 ，即命千里眼、順風耳開南天門觀看。二將果奉旨出門外，看的真，聽的明。須 臾回報道：「臣奉旨觀聽金光之處，乃東勝神洲海東傲來小國之界，有一座花果 山，山上有一仙石，石產一卵，見風化一石猴，在那裏拜四方，眼運金光，射沖 斗府。如今服餌水食，金光將潛息矣。」玉帝垂賜恩慈曰：「下方之物，乃天地 精華所生，不足為異。」

When the wind blew on this egg it turned into a stone monkey, complete with the five senses and four limbs.
When the stone monkey had learned to crawl and walk, he bowed to each of the four quarters. As his eyes
moved, two beams of golden light shot towards the Pole Star palace and startled the Supreme Heavenly Sage,
the Greatly Compassionate Jade Emperor of the Azure Vault of Heaven, who was sitting surrounded by his
immortal ministers on his throne in the Hall of Miraculous Mist in the Golden−gated Cloud Palace. When he
saw the dazzling golden light he ordered Thousand−mile Eye and Wind−accompanying Ear to open the
Southern Gate of Heaven and take a look. The two officers went out through the gate in obedience to the
imperial command, and while one observed what was going on the other listened carefully. Soon afterwards
they reported back:
"In obedience to the Imperial Mandate your subjects observed and listened to the source of the golden light.
We found that at the edge of the country of Aolai, which is East of the ocean belonging to the Eastern
Continent of Superior Body, there is an island called the Mountain of Flowers and Fruit. A magic stone on the
top of this mountain produced a magic egg, and when the wind blew on this egg it turned into a stone monkey
which bowed to each of the four quarters. When he moved his eyes, golden light shot towards the Pole Star
Palace; but now that he is eating and drinking, the golden light is gradually dying."
In his benevolence and mercy the Jade Emperor said, "Creatures down below are born of the essence of
heaven and earth: there is nothing remarkable about him."

Evidence 2 (Chapter 7)

真個光陰迅速，不覺七七四十九日，老君的火候俱全。忽一日，開爐取丹。那
大聖雙手侮著眼，正自揉搓流涕，只聽得爐頭聲響。猛睜睛看見光明，他就忍
不住，將身一縱，跳出丹爐，?喇一聲，蹬倒八卦爐，往外就走。慌得那架火
、看爐與丁甲一班人來扯，被他一個個都放倒，好似癲癇的白額虎，風狂的獨
角龍。老君趕上抓一把，被他一捽，捽了個倒栽蔥，脫身走了。即去耳中掣出
如意棒，迎風幌一幌，碗來粗細，依然拿在手中，不分好歹，卻又大亂天宮，
打得那九曜星閉門閉戶，四天王無影無形。好猴精，有詩為證。詩曰：
混元體正合先天，萬劫千番只自然。
渺渺無為渾太乙，如如不動號初玄。
爐中久煉非鉛汞，物外長生是本仙。
變化無窮還變化，三皈五戒總休言。
又詩：
一點靈光徹太虛，那條拄杖亦如之。
或長或短隨人用，橫豎橫排任卷舒。
又詩：
猿猴道體配人心，心即猿猴意思深。
大聖齊天非假論，官封弼馬豈知音。
馬猿合作心和意，緊縛牢拴莫外尋。
萬相歸真從一理，如來同契住雙林。

Time soon passed, and without him realizing it the seven times seven, or forty−nine, days had passed, and
Lord Lao Zi's fire had reached the required temperature and burned for long enough. One day the furnace was
opened for the elixir to be taken out. The Great Sage, who was shielding his eyes with both hands and wiping
away his tears, heard a noise at the top of the furnace. He looked hard and saw daylight; and, unable to stand
being in there a moment longer, leapt out of the furnace, kicked it over with a crash, and was off. In the
ensuing chaos the fire−boys, the keepers of the furnace, the Dings and the Jias all tried to grab him, but he
knocked them all down. He was like a white−browed tiger gone berserk, a single−horned dragon raving mad.
Lord Lao Zi rushed up to seize him, but was thrown head over heels as the Great Sage freed himself. He took
the As−You−Will cudgel from his ear, and shook it in the wind till it was thick as a bowl, and once more
created total chaos in the Palace of Heaven, not caring in the least what he did. He laid about him to such
effect that the Nine Bright Shiners shut their windows and doors, and not a sign was to be seen of the Four
Heavenly Kings.
Marvellous monkey spirit! As the poem has it,
His primordial body matches an earlier heaven,
Completely natural throughout ten thousand ages;
Vast and passive, blended with the Great Monad;
Always immobile, known as the Prime Mystery.
After so much refining in the furnace he is not lead or mercury;
Having lived long outside the ordinary he is a natural Immortal.
His changes are inexhaustible, and still he has more,
So say nothing about the Three Refuges or Five Abstentions.
Another poem says:
A single point of magic light can fill the whole of space;
Likewise that staff of his:
Longer or shorter, depending on his needs,
Upright or horizontal, it can shrink or grow.
Yet another poem runs:
To the ape's immortal body is matched a human mind:
That the mind is an ape is deeply meaningful.
It was quite true that the Great Sage equaled Heaven:
The appointment as Protector of the Horse showed no discernment.
Horse and ape together make mind and thought;
Bind them tightly together, and do not seek elsewhere.
When all phenomena are reduced to truth they follow a single pattern;
Like the Tathagatha reaching nirvana under the two trees.

The poem may seem unreliable, but if it is to describe the monkey make gods sharing the same name to the gods in religious unable to defeat him, it makes sense.
Evidence 3 (Chapter 97) JttW era

那大聖一路觔斗雲，直至幽冥地界，徑撞入森羅殿上。慌得那： 十代閻君拱手接，五方鬼判叩頭迎。千株劍樹皆攲側，萬疊刀山盡坦平。枉死城 中魑魅化，奈河橋下鬼超生。正是那神光一照如天赦，黑暗陰司處處明。

The Great Sage went straight to the Underworld by somersault cloud and charged into the Senluo Palace,
causing such alarm that:
The Ten Kings of the Underworld came out to raise their bands in greeting;
The demon judges of the five regions kowtowed in welcome.
A thousand trees of knives all leaned away;
Ten thousand hills of swords all leveled themselves.
In the City of the Unjustly Slain the fiends were converted;
Under the bridge over Punishment River the dead return to life.
The divine light was like the grace of Heaven,
And everywhere shone bright in the palaces of darkness.

 

[Mariogoods]

Being stronger than someone doesn't grant you their power. Otherwise most marvel high tier is just composite character.

However, unlike Marvel and DC, where superheroes and supervillains's power and abilities are (mostly) independent each other, gods from Taoism (even it's JttW and it's not Taoism, they still share something in common) are arguably from the source of "chi" (I know that JttW does not say this concept directly, but it is to help understand), therefore "being stronger in 'chi' than someone who using 'chi' granting you their power"

Example can be found in Chapter 45, where shows that "whatever you normal Taoist can do, I, Sun Wukong, can do more directly and better". Feel free to read them, since it has too many context and JttW is public domain.

 

[Greatsage13th]

But how much would this translate in tier?

 

[Mariogoods]

But how much would this translate in tier?

I think universe or above level justification still applies.

By the way,

Yes, yes,” the Buddha replied, and he stretched out his right hand, which seemed to be about the size of a lotus leaf. Putting away his As-You-Will cudgel, the Great Sage summoned up all his divine powers, jumped into the palm of the Buddha’s hand, and said, “I’m off.” Watch him as he goes like a streak of light and disappears completely. The Buddha, who was watching him with his wise eyes, saw the Monkey King whirling forward like a windmill and not stopping until he saw five flesh-pink pillars topped by dark vapours.

“This is the end of the road,” he said, “so now I’ll go back. The Buddha will be witness, and the Hall of Miraculous Mist will be mine.” Then he thought again, “Wait a moment. I’ll leave my mark here to prove my case when I talk to the Buddha.” He pulled out a hair, breathed on it with his magic breath, and shouted “Change.” It turned into a writing brush dipped in ink, and with it he wrote THE GREAT SAGE EQUALING HEAVEN WAS HERE in big letters on the middle pillar. When that was done he put the hair back on, and, not standing on his dignity, made a pool of monkey piss at the foot of the pillar. Then he turned his somersault round and went back to where he had started from.

“I went, and now I’m back. Tell the Jade Emperor to hand the Heavenly Palace over to me,” he said, standing in the Buddha’s palm.

“I’ve got you, you piss-spirit of a monkey,” roared the Buddha at him. “You never left the palm of my hand.”

“You’re wrong there,” the Great Sage replied. “I went to the farthest point of Heaven, where I saw five flesh-pink pillars topped by dark vapours. I left my mark there: do you dare come and see it with me?”

I'll put the whole text since they are all from Buddha palm part:

佛祖聽言，呵呵冷笑道：「你那廝乃是個猴子成精，焉敢欺心，要奪玉皇上帝 尊位？他自幼修持，苦歷過一千七百五十劫。每劫該十二萬九千六百年，你算 他該多少年數，方能享受此無極大道？你那個初世為人的畜生，如何出此大言 ？不當人子，不當人子，折了你的壽算。趁早皈依，切莫胡說。但恐遭了毒手 ，性命頃刻而休，可惜了你的本來面目。」大聖道：「他雖年幼修長，也不應 久占在此。常言道：『皇帝輪流做，明年到我家。』只教他搬出去，將天宮讓 與我，便罷了﹔若還不讓，定要攪攘，永不清平。」佛祖道：「你除了長生變 化之法，再有何能，敢占天宮勝境？」大聖道：「我的手段多哩：我有七十二 般變化，萬劫不老長生﹔會駕觔斗雲，一縱十萬八千里。如何坐不得天位？」 佛祖道：「我與你打個賭賽：你若有本事，一觔斗打出我這右手掌中，算你贏 ，再不用動刀兵，苦爭戰，就請玉帝到西方居住，把天宮讓你﹔若不能打出手 掌，你還下界為妖，再修幾劫，卻來爭吵。」那大聖聞言，暗笑道：「這如來 十分好獃。我老孫一觔斗去十萬八千里，他那手掌方圓不滿一尺，如何跳不出 去？」急發聲道：「既如此說，你可做得主張？」佛祖道：「做得，做得。」 伸開右手，卻似個荷葉大小。

那大聖收了如意棒，抖擻神威，將身一縱，站在佛祖手心裏，卻道聲：「我出 去也。」你看他一路雲光，無形無影去了。佛祖慧眼觀看，見那猴王風車子一 般相似不住，只管前進。大聖行時，忽見有五根肉紅柱子，撐著一股青氣。他 道：「此間乃盡頭路了。這番回去，如來作證，靈霄宮定是我坐也。」又思量 說：「且住，等我留下些記號，方好與如來說話。」拔下一根毫毛，吹口仙氣 ，叫：「變！」變作一管濃墨雙毫筆，在那中間柱子上寫一行大字云：「齊天 大聖，到此一遊。」寫畢，收了毫毛。又不莊尊，卻在第一根柱子根下撒了一 泡猴尿。翻轉觔斗雲，徑回本處，站在如來掌內道：「我已去，今來了。你教 玉帝讓天宮與我。」

如來罵道：「我把你這個尿精猴子，你正好不曾離了我掌哩。」大聖道：「你 是不知。我去到天盡頭，見五根肉紅柱，撐著一股青氣，我留個記在那裏，你 敢和我同去看麼？」如來道：「不消去，你只自低頭看看。」那大聖睜圓火眼 金睛，低頭看時，原來佛祖右手中指寫著「齊天大聖，到此一遊」。大指丫裏 ，還有些猴尿臊氣。大聖吃了一驚道：「有這等事？有這等事？我將此字寫在 撐天柱子上，如何卻在他手指上？莫非有個未卜先知的法術？我決不信，不信 。等我再去來。」

好大聖，急縱身又要跳出。被佛祖翻掌一撲，把這猴王推出西天門外，將五指
化作金、木、水、火、土五座聯山，喚名「五行山」，輕輕的把他壓住。眾雷
神與阿儺、迦葉一個個合掌稱揚道：「善哉，善哉！
當年卵化學為人，立志修行果道真。
萬劫無移居勝境，一朝有變散精神。
欺天罔上思高位，凌聖偷丹亂大倫。
惡貫滿盈今有報，不知何日得翻身。」

 

[Greatsage13th]

@Ricsi-viragosi

Apply law manipulation, void manipulation and large size type 8 with beyond dimensional existence type 0

 

[Mariogoods]

From what I know, Buddha relam and the Heaven all have different time-space structure to the "moral realm" (Buddha relam has no time concept, as I proved before. The Heaven has different time zone, as I proved before. Then, could someone tell me how fast they are in our tier system?)

 

[Greatsage13th]

They are omnipresent beyond 4D

 

[Mariogoods]

Sun Wukong can casually travel to these realm without problem, then?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Sun Wukong can casually travel to these realm without problem, then?

I mean if he can't. Than how did he trash the places

 

[Mariogoods]

I mean if he can't. Than how did he trash the places

He actually can do that. The evidences are too many in JttW. It is highly suggested that he perform this simply by using his "speed".

By the way, maybe it is time to reach a consensus about his profile. I'll be off for a longer period of time, so maybe I cannot reply to every post in this thread here.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Ability additions aren't done yet

 

[Eganergo]

Yes, so is many people from dragon ball. Similarity in AP, dura, or even race doesn't grant you the same power.

However, unlike Marvel and DC, where superheroes and supervillains's power and abilities are (mostly) independent each other, gods from Taoism (even it's JttW and it's not Taoism, they still share something in common) are arguably from the source of "chi" (I know that JttW does not say this concept directly, but it is to help understand), therefore "being stronger in 'chi' than someone who using 'chi' granting you their power"

Example can be found in Chapter 45, where shows that "whatever you normal Taoist can do, I, Sun Wukong, can do more directly and better". Feel free to read them, since it has too many context and JttW is public domain.

We were not talking about Wukong. And this is the arrogant Wukong we're talking about. Not to mention i kind of heard sentence like that from every villain ever.

Hyperbole unless he has the feats for it. The same for Budha or whatever. You don't just get other people power because you're stronger, using the same source of power, or even being the same race unless proven by feats.

Everyone in DB can use ki, but doesn't grant you the same power. Even being saiyan doesn't grant everyone the same power except transformation (even this is for someone shown to do it).

So, no without feats.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yes, so is many people from dragon ball. Similarity in AP, dura, or even race doesn't grant you the same power.

We were not talking about Wukong. And this is the arrogant Wukong we're talking about. Not to mention i kind of heard sentence like that from every villain ever.

Hyperbole unless he has the feats for it. The same for Budha or whatever. You don't just get other people power because you're stronger, using the same source of power, or even being the same race unless proven by feats.

Everyone in DB can use ki, but doesn't grant you the same power. Even being saiyan doesn't grant everyone the same power except transformation (even this is for someone shown to do it).

So, no without feats.

agreed because wukong still had trouble dealing with weapons that came from heaven which some gods even had trouble dealing with after wukong's rampage in heaven

 

[Mariogoods]

Yes, so is many people from dragon ball. Similarity in AP, dura, or even race doesn't grant you the same power.

We were not talking about Wukong. And this is the arrogant Wukong we're talking about. Not to mention i kind of heard sentence like that from every villain ever.

Hyperbole unless he has the feats for it. The same for Budha or whatever. You don't just get other people power because you're stronger, using the same source of power, or even being the same race unless proven by feats.

Everyone in DB can use ki, but doesn't grant you the same power. Even being saiyan doesn't grant everyone the same power except transformation (even this is for someone shown to do it).

So, no without feats.

I think "Feats first, granting similar abilities if reasonable".

Maybe we could list the currently determined Wukong's abilities (and Tier)?

 

[Greatsage13th]

just wait for

@Ricsi-viragosi
@Planck69

responses first

 

[Mariogoods]

Before I'm off, I'll provide some information and my opinion here.

Darksmash may be surprised by my presumption about "七十二般變化". Zhu Bajie claimed that Sun Wukong has 72 lifes because Sun Wukong "has the 72 bianhua". However, it is clearly that Sun Wukong has used the skill more than seventy-two times. Given the nature of words in JttW, that's a explanation.

Also, I'll suggest Power Bestowal for Sun Wukong:

Evidence (Chapter 88)

行者才教三個王子都在暴紗亭後，靜室之間，畫了罡斗。教三人都俯伏在內， 一個個瞑目寧神。這裏卻暗暗念動真言，誦動咒語，將仙氣吹入他三人心腹之 中，把元神收歸本舍。傳與口訣，各授得萬千之膂力，運添了火候，卻像個脫 胎換骨之法。運遍了子午周天，那三個小王子方才甦醒，一齊爬將起來，抹抹 臉，精神抖擻，一個個骨壯筋強：大王子就拿得金箍棒，二王子就掄得九齒 鈀，三王子就舉得降妖杖。

老王見了，歡喜不勝。又排素宴，啟謝他師徒四眾。就在筵前各傳各授：學棍 的演棍，學鈀的演鈀，學杖的演杖。雖然打幾個轉身，丟幾般解數，此等終是 凡夫，有些著力：走一路，便喘氣噓噓，不能耐久。蓋他那兵器都有變化，其 進退攻揚，隨消隨長，皆有自然之妙，此等終是凡夫，豈能以遽及也？當日收 了筵宴。

Monkey then took the three young princes into a quiet room behind the pavilion where he drew a star−chart of
the Dipper and told them to prostrate themselves inside it while they shut their eyes and settled their spirits.
Meanwhile he silently said the words of the spell, recited a mantra, and blew magic breath into the hearts of
the three of them. He put their primal spirits back into their original home, taught them magical spells, gave
each of them immense strength, applied the right heat, and performed a magic that replaced their old bodies
and bones with new ones. After the heat circulated in a roundabout way through their bodies the three young
princes came to, stood up, rubbed their faces, summoned up their spirits, and all found that they were much
stronger. The eldest of them could pick up the gold−banded cudgel, the second could swing the nine−toothed
rake, and the third could raise the demon−quelling staff.
When the king saw this he was beside himself with delight, and arranged another vegetarian feast for the Tang
Priest and his three disciples. In front of the banquet each of the princes was taught his own skill: the one who
was learning the rod practised with the rod, the one who was learning the rake practised with the rake, and the
one who was learning the staff practised with the staff. Though the young princes did manage a few turns and
movements it took a lot of effort, and going through a series of movements left them gasping for breath, so
that they could not go on. Besides this, the weapons they were using had the power of transformation, so that
as the princes advanced, retreated, attacked and lifted the weapons shrunk, grew and went through amazing
changes by themselves. But the princes were, after all, only mortals, and were unable to keep up with the
speed of their weapons. Later that day the banquet came to an end.

The sentences also explain that Wukong's weapon cannot be well-used only by sheer strength.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Also, are we using Wukong covering the Earth in darkness @Greatsage13th? If so that should be removed. He was just tricking the demons. It was Ne Zha using Black Banner and covering the sun.

 

[Mariogoods]

Then, which Tier should Sun Wukong get? I'm personally against the Tier downgrade.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

He has a statement of altering the stars and the planets. This may as well be the closest thing to a feat he has tbh aside from growing ten thousand feets or shaking mountains in his battle against Ne Zha. Then again in ch 33 he was pinned down by three mountains unable to move.

“Brother, to tell you the truth,” said Pilgrim, “I’m quite capable of performing such difficult feats as kicking down the sky or overturning wells, stirring up oceans or upending rivers, carrying mountains or chasing the moon, and altering the course of stars and planets. I’m not afraid, in fact, of even having my head split open or cut off, of having my stomach ripped apart and my heart gouged out, or of any such strange manipulations. But if you ask me to sit and meditate, I’ll lose the contest even before I begin! Where could I, tell me, acquire the nature to sit still? Even if you were to chain me to an iron pillar, I would still try to climb up and down. I can never manage to sit still.”

It should give a tier for the first key. But depends on how you take his words.

 

[Greatsage13th]

5B is a low ball
Mid would be 3A
High balling would be high 3A

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also, are we using Wukong covering the Earth in darkness @Greatsage13th? If so that should be removed. He was just tricking the demons. It was Ne Zha using Black Banner and covering the sun.

Social influencing for tricking highly intelligent demons then

 

[Greatsage13th]

But didn't the buddha specifically state that he far surpasses the inumerable since he states that even if you learn the inumerable and focus your life upon it. It will be meaninless? Which could be high 3A or 3A

 

[Greatsage13th]

It felt like he was trying to state focussing your life at all innumerable possibilities are all meaningless.

Which if I say so myself....makes sense