Sternritter Profiles Revision [Bleach]

[Tsotso]

Is he a quincy wearing armor or is he a cyborg?

It's implied he's a cybord or robot.

 

[Damage3245]

Are we ignoring that the captain's got stronger in the time frame between the first and second invasion?

Even if the hollow amp was very minor, they were going to be stronger using their bankai than they were in the first invasion given their training.

I don't really see how it's an anti-feat at all

I think that is worth ignoring, as far as this revision is concerned.

We know what kind of training they did. Toshiro made better ice structures in combination with Rangiku. Soi-Fon mastered her Shunko.

It's not stated that they improved with their Bankai in any way.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Ark is planning on responding when he's available so could we get a summary of what's been discussed so far after he left yesterday

 

[Cyberblader90]

The training was to further improve themselves. They got stronger in their base stats for combat.

You don't need to train your Bankai in order for your bankai to get stronger.

Case in point byakuya And sajin. Both their Bankais got stronger despite not having access to either when they trained. The moment they got them back they're increased power then correlated to the Bankai.

 

[Loyd]

Yea low/mid low regen upon activating volstandig seems fair maybe it only heals flesh
Considering his a cyborg his excluded

or it did heal whatever was inside him
And the broken face/torso is just armor he needs parts to replace

 

[Damage3245]

Car in point byakuya And sajin. Both their Bankais got stronger despite not having access to either when they trained. The moment they got them back they're increased power then correlated to the Bankai.

I don't remember Sajin being stated to have gotten stronger through training.

As for Toshiro and Soi-Fon, when was their Shikai stats confirmed to have gotten stronger?

 

[Cyberblader90]

I'll respond with scans after church

Toshiro literally trained his shikai to make up for his bankai loss.

Soi fon trained as well. They would have gotten stronger.

 

[Loyd]

holy shit were getting cyberblader90
not compromiserblader90 let goo

 

[Damage3245]

Toshiro literally trained his shikai to make up for his bankai loss.

Toshiro trained to fight with less ice. That's not a statement about increasing his power; it's to do with the tactic that he tried to use against Bazz-B.

Soi fon trained as well. They would have gotten stronger.

Soi-Fon trained to improve her Shunko. Nothing about her normal stats being increased.

 

[Tsotso]

That ^

 

[Tsotso]

The training was to further improve themselves. They got stronger in their base stats for combat.

You don't need to train your Bankai in order for your bankai to get stronger.

Case in point byakuya And sajin. Both their Bankais got stronger despite not having access to either when they trained. The moment they got them back they're increased power then correlated to the Bankai.

Can you prove that Soifon and Toshiro got so much stronger with training that they could one shot or nearly one shot their pre-training selves?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Just to clarify (I’m about to go on a hike so I won’t respond for a bit) but the current big point is are the post-training Hollowfied Bankai Captains stronger than their regular Bankai and are the Quincies with Hollow reiatsu poisoning them weaker? And are we still on the Yama point?

Also y’all either up super early or our time zones are quite far apart lol. So sorry that y’all have to wait a bit because of that.

 

[Damage3245]

Just to clarify (I’m about to go on a hike so I won’t respond for a bit) but the current big point is are the post-training Hollowfied Bankai Captains stronger than their regular Bankai and are the Quincies with Hollow reiatsu poisoning them weaker? And are we still on the Yama point?

The main point to me is this supposed difference between a Shinigami using their Bankai and a Quincy using a stolen Bankai. You didn't go into details about why that should be relevant.

 

[Tsotso]

@Arc7Kuroi By the way, please check out this post from earlier when you have time.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Arc7Kuroi By the way, please check out this post from earlier when you have time.

Didn’t Bambietta straight up say that using a stolen bankai would be weaker than using vollstandig?
Kinda supports more that a vollstandig could be more of an amp than bankai. The only reason she lost to Komamura was because of his immortality and his humanization bankai was unable to take any damage

Wait, I think you addressed that in your post so my bad on that

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The main point to me is this supposed difference between a Shinigami using their Bankai and a Quincy using a stolen Bankai. You didn't go into details about why that should be relevant.

The stealing vs sealing?

I’ll address that and Captains vs Ritter after regaining Bankai. Since they seem to be popular topics

 

[Tsotso]

Didn’t Bambietta straight up say that using a stolen bankai would be weaker than using vollstandig?
Kinda supports more that a vollstandig could be more of an amp than bankai. The only reason she lost to Komamura was because of his immortality and his humanization bankai was unable to take any damage

It's probably because when a Sternritter uses a stolen Bankai it's less powerful than when the shinigami owner is using it, which is confirmed during Yama's "fight" with Driscoll and is the only discernible reason for Cang Du to feel the need to train with Hitsugaya's Bankai.

Besides, you know, the ultimate Quincy technique giving a bigger boost to a Quincy than a stolen Bankai doesn't seem illogical.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

A bunch of personal shit came up in my life last night and I haven’t been able to be active, I’ll try to give a response within the next ~12ish hours, but if not I’m obviously not going to force y’all to wait for me.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Intro
The two major points that are championing the Ritter not scaling to the stolen Bankai are: A) anti-feats and B) Yhwach's statement and everything associated with it.

Anti-Feats
The biggest point here is that after regaining their Bankai, the Captains were able to defeat the Ritter, and that the Hollow amps don't amount to anything in terms of scaling.

My premise against the anti-feats is as follows: the regained Bankai Captains are stronger than they were when they had their Bankai stolen, thus defeating the Ritter is not an anti-feat for the Ritter, and rather proof that the Captains training bore fruit. Let me explain.

After the first invasion (when the Captains lost said Bankai) we see them train. Toshiro practices his kendo, Shuhei is forced to train in attempts to unlock Bankai, Iba is seen repping out push-ups or sumn, Soi-Fon is doing one armed standing push-ups, Sajin spars with his elder (fighting someone is a form of training), and Byakuya trains so hard As Nodt mistakes his Shikai for Bankai. The point being everyone was training after being handed an L during the first invasion, the Shinigami post first invasion are stronger than they were when they were defeated.

Right before regaining their Bankai, Kisuke explains the mechanism behind the process. Kisuke notes that his method of regaining Bankai has two advantages: 1) it weakens the Quincy and 2) it poisons the Quincy. Meaning that by recovering the Bankai through the hollowfication pills, the Ritter will become damaged and be nerfed at the same time. We directly see this as BG9's functions start to fail and slow down, then while he's weakened and off guard he gets blasted by Soi-Fon's Bankai. Same with Cang Du, he gets blindsided by the Hollow reiatsu, Toshiro's Bankai begins to Hollowfy, and he freezes Cang Du. The point being that the Quincy that lost were caught off guard, poisoned, and were nerfed by Kisuke's ploy.

Finally, regarding the temporary Hollowfication of Bankai and why it is a boost, and how it may be more of a boost than one thinks. Kaname refers to Hollowfication as a power greater than Bankai and with Ichigo's fight with Byakuya we see that even a half mask while Ichigo is trying to regain control completely turned the tides on Byakuya. So Toshiro and Soi-Fon receiving Hollow powers at all means they got some sort of amp, albeit unquantifiable. The point here being that while the amp might be incapable of being pinpointed to precise accuracy, it is an amp nonetheless.

To wrap this up, the Captains that won with their Bankai had been training since they lost their Bankai and had their Bankai partially Hollowfied, and the Ritter that lost were weakened by those same Hollow powers and caught off guard. So, we have two amps for the Captains (Hollow powers and training) and two nerfs for the Ritter (off guard/surprise and Hollow poisoning). For the anti-feat point to be valid, the Ritter would have had to lose to Bankai Captains who were equals to their Bankai selves at the start of the war, but as I've shown that's simply not the case. We have Bankai Captains > first invasion Bankai selves defeating Ritter < first invasion selves. Thus there are no anti-feats.

The opposition also are under the impression that the amps and nerfs being unquantifiable means that the anti-feats are still valid. However, that is blatantly incorrect and not how we scale on this site. I'll pose this question: if character X trains and becomes stronger than he was yesterday, is his yesterday self equal to his current self? The answer is no. I'll pose another question: if character Y is weakened due to some mechanism, are they as strong as their peak selves? The answer is still no. So saying that weakened Quincy being beaten by stronger/post-training Shinigami means that the peak Quincy can't scale to weaker versions of the Shinigami is blatantly false.

To steelman the opposition before I move on to the next point: let's say that the partial Hollowfication didn't amp the Captains at all, would it make a difference to my premise? Well, as proved above, the Captains still trained and got stronger, and again as proved above, the Quincy were weakened in their moment of defeat. So, even without Hollow amps, the Captains in Bankai during the second invasion would be stronger than themselves in the first invasion, and the Ritter in the second invasion that lost would be weaker than their first invasion selves. So, regardless of if I win the Hollow amp point or not, the anti-feat point is still debunked.

Aside, I didn't touch on Bambietta's fight, because as damage himself said, she was beaten by a combination of her own attack and Sajin's, and not to mention Sajin was quite literally the water type to Bambietta's fire type (aka he was a direct counter). So I don't feel the need to tackle this point again as it was resolved.

The Medallions
As we are all aware Yhwach says this: "It's not that we couldn't steal your Bankai. But who else can control your immense power besides me? That is why I ordered Royd to stand down until I arrived." To which I argue means Yhwach must be relative to Zanka no Tachi, wherein damage argues Yhwach only needs to scale to Yama's Shikai.

First, I'll tackle the notion that Yhwach only needs to be relative to base/Shikai Yamamoto and why that makes less sense than our current scaling. Yhwach effortlessly kills that Yamamoto, thus we already know Yhwach is far above base/Shikai Yama. Yamamoto inadvertently confirms that he needs Bankai to have a possibility of defeating Yhwach, as he doesn't fight with Yhwach (Royd) until he's pushed to Bankai, he enters Bankai as soon as Yhwach (Royd) draws his blade. While this next scan doesn't inherently prove that Yhwach ~ Bankai Yama, it certainly implies that Yhwach is in some way relative to Bankai Yama, if Bankai Yama failed to kill him. Nimaiya also has documentation on Yhwach vs Yama in the past and makes no indication that he has any information on the Almighty, implying that Bankai Yama and base Yhwach are relative yet again as Yama failed to kill Yhwach. Before you ask, yes past Yama scales to the Bankai statements, as that is the only record people like Unohana would have of Yama's Bankai. Narratively, it is certainly implied that Yhwach is in the same realm of power as Bankai Yamamoto, which is backed up with how effortlessly he slays base/Shikai Yama.

To increase the preponderance of evidence supporting Yhwach being a Bankai Yama level threat, I introduce Squad 0. Yhwach makes the claim that because they killed Yama, that will prompt Squad 0 to arrive. This implying that Squad 0 will willingly leave their posts as guards to the God of the Bleach universe, if a threat that can kill Yamamoto appears. Furthermore, Yhwach asserts that Ichibe stands above all Shinigami, and it is seemingly common knowledge that Squad 0 > Gotei 13. The phrase "stand above all" generally refers to something that is the pinnacle of whatever is being referred to; for example, if someone was the "pinnacle of the human race" that would imply that they are the strongest, fastest, smartest, etc person alive. Most commonly, being above everything means you are unrivaled in all important aspects by that "everything", while I won't claim that being the "pinnacle of Shinigami" inherently makes Ichibe the strongest, it is highly likely that is what the author intended (Squad 0 > Gotei 13 backs up that interpretation). Just to back up my point with another series that uses the same phrasing, Escanor refers to himself as "he who stands atop all clans", and all NNT readers will understand that when Escanor says that he is implying that he is the pinnacle of races in every way, shape, and form. Yhwach is able to clash with Ichibe prior to getting inked as well.

Why am I bringing up all this Yhwach scaling? Let me explain. First, proving or showing that Yhwach scaling to Bankai Yama levels of power would support the notion that his statement is implying that, to steal a Bankai you must be relative to the Bankai. So Yhwach scaling vastly above Shikai Yama and scaling to the "top of all Shinigami" Ichibe, as well as Bankai Yama being unable to kill Yhwach, all point to Yhwach being relative to Bankai Yama. Seeing how lore wise Yhwach is a Bankai Yama and beyond threat, in Bleach's in verse history Yhwach is relative to Bankai Yama, and Yhwach scales to Ichibe who is very likely (heavily intended and implied to be) above Bankai Yama. Now I'll elaborate on the stealing vs sealing stuffs.

The Medallion, as mentioned by Yhwach, steal the Bankai. This is confirmed several times that the Bankai aren't being sealed but stolen, and that the Quincy are taking possession of the Bankai. Zanpakuto function entirely different than this, as they seal the power behind transformations. The opposition claim that the Medallion work similar to Zanpakuto and have used such implication to say that "since Yama isn't equal to his Bankai in base the Quincy don't need to be equal to the Bankai unless they're wielding it". However, that comes from speculation on how the Medallions work and concluding that they function like Zanpakuto, which is false. The reason Shinigami aren't equal to their Bankai in base is because the Zanpakuto seal away the blade's power, the Medallions are never indicated to act similar and are only confirmed to steal and possess the Bankai, not seal its power.

Furthermore, the notion that the Quincy only need to be relative to the base/Shikai is directly contradicted by the manga. Bazz himself states he was able to use his flames to mitigate the damage to himself and the other Quincies from Yama's Shikai. Obviously Bazz still was burnt, however not only was he not taken out of the fight by Shikai Yama, he was even capable of offsetting Shikai Yama's flames enough so that he could continue fighting fine. While Bazz certainly isn't equal to base/Shikai Yama, he is very much so relative. Another case of a Sternritter scaling to or even above Shikai Yama is Gremmy. Not only does Gremmy have better feats than Shikai Yama, lore wise he has better statements as well. Gremmy can destroy the entirety of Seireitei via statements, meanwhile Shikai Yama was only going to vaporize a town. This is reflected in their ratings on site as well, seeing that Gremmy scales above Shikai Yama. Royd is also able to block a swing from Shikai Yama with his bare arm only receiving a mild cut. That being said, only Yhwach could contain Yamamoto's Bankai. Despite their being Quincy with better feats than Shikai Yama, and Quincy that scale relative if not equal to Shikai Yama, only Yhwach could steal his Bankai. Point in case, the notion that the Sternritter need to be relative to the Captains' Shikai to steal their Bankai is directly contradicted and makes no sense.

All of this pointing to Yhwach having power comparable to Zanka no Tachi, just as his statement regarding himself being the sole Quincy capable of controlling Yama's immense power indicates.

Conclusion
To back up my points one last time with a narrative argument: both Shunsui and Renji flat out state that they cannot hope to fight the Ritter without Bankai. The Sternritter being stated to be equal to or stronger than Captain class characters as well. I don't think I need to say much more, but with all these beyond Captain level characters, scaling to Bankai doesn't seem so far fetched does it?

My apologies for taking so long to respond again.

 

[Damage3245]

The opposition also are under the impression that the amps and nerfs being unquantifiable means that the anti-feats are still valid. However, that is blatantly incorrect and not how we scale on this site. I'll pose this question: if character X trains and becomes stronger than he was yesterday, is his yesterday self equal to his current self? The answer is no. I'll pose another question: if character Y is weakened due to some mechanism, are they as strong as their peak selves? The answer is still no. So saying that weakened Quincy being beaten by stronger/post-training Shinigami means that the peak Quincy can't scale to weaker versions of the Shinigami is blatantly false.

While the answers to those questions are indeed "No" we still have to consider whether the differences are relevant enough to affect scaling.

If somebody trains and become 0.0001% stronger, and they then one-shot another character, we need to evaluate how likely it is that they'd scale to their previous self or not.

To steelman the opposition before I move on to the next point: let's say that the partial Hollowfication didn't amp the Captains at all, would it make a difference to my premise? Well, as proved above, the Captains still trained and got stronger, and again as proved above, the Quincy were weakened in their moment of defeat. So, even without Hollow amps, the Captains in Bankai during the second invasion would be stronger than themselves in the first invasion, and the Ritter in the second invasion that lost would be weaker than their first invasion selves. So, regardless of if I win the Hollow amp point or not, the anti-feat point is still debunked.

I have debunked the points about the relevance of the Captains training here.

We know exactly how they trained over the course of the... what, couple of days or so? No reason to assume their Bankai got any stronger.

Why am I bringing up all this Yhwach scaling? Let me explain. First, proving or showing that Yhwach scaling to Bankai Yama levels of power would support the notion that his statement is implying that, to steal a Bankai you must be relative to the Bankai. So Yhwach scaling vastly above Shikai Yama and scaling to the "top of all Shinigami" Ichibe, as well as Bankai Yama being unable to kill Yhwach, all point to Yhwach being relative to Bankai Yama. Seeing how lore wise Yhwach is a Bankai Yama and beyond threat, in Bleach's in verse history Yhwach is relative to Bankai Yama, and Yhwach scales to Ichibe who is very likely (heavily intended and implied to be) above Bankai Yama.

I don't think I need to address this. Even if every single thing you said here was true, it doesn't effect the current scaling justification. It would all be other scaling justifications.

The Medallion, as mentioned by Yhwach, steal the Bankai. This is confirmed several times that the Bankai aren't being sealed but stolen, and that the Quincy are taking possession of the Bankai. Zanpakuto function entirely different than this, as they seal the power behind transformations. The opposition claim that the Medallion work similar to Zanpakuto and have used such implication to say that "since Yama isn't equal to his Bankai in base the Quincy don't need to be equal to the Bankai unless they're wielding it". However, that comes from speculation on how the Medallions work and concluding that they function like Zanpakuto, which is false. The reason Shinigami aren't equal to their Bankai in base is because the Zanpakuto seal away the blade's power, the Medallions are never indicated to act similar and are only confirmed to steal and possess the Bankai, not seal its power.

I don't know if I'm just having a hard time understanding you, or if you're explaining this badly, but you're not point out what relevance this has in the way that they use the Bankai.

Yes - Zanpakuto's seal away the blade's power. But what difference does that make?

Both characters in question, Yamamoto and Yhwach, are using the same power; the Bankai.

Yamamoto isn't equal to his Bankai despite being able to control it.

So why is Yhwach equal to his Bankai because he can control it?

To back up my points one last time with a narrative argument: both Shunsui and Renji flat out state that they cannot hope to fight the Ritter without Bankai.

Requiring Bankai to beat their opponents does not mean those opponents are equal to their Bankai.

Also, Kenpachi disproves this idea by beating three Sternritter singlehandedly without even his Shikai. At best you can apply those statements only to Shunsui and Renji themselves.

The Sternritter being stated to be equal to or stronger than Captain class characters as well.

Not sure what this is meant to prove. If it was "The Sternritter are equal to or stronger than Captains using Bankai" then it would be relevant. But simply being "Captain class" does not mean being "Bankai level."

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Regarding your response to the anti-feats section. I don’t think you understand that characters stronger than their past selves beating characters weaker than the characters that previously beat them, is not an anti-feat. I don’t need an exact percentage increase in power. Also you know Bankai increases your base power right? So by increasing your base power you’d make the Bankai stronger. I’ve proved that the Captains got stronger and in the instant the Quincies got weaker. It’s on you to prove the Captains didn’t get stronger if you want to push the anti-feat point. Which you haven’t done since I’ve debunked it.

Also, Kenpachi disproves this idea by beating three Sternritter singlehandedly without even his Shikai. At best you can apply those statements only to Shunsui and Renji themselves.

Ah yes Kenny, the literal exception to the rule always. This doesn’t debunk my points. Kenpachi is the only captain who didn’t get there via Bankai.

I’ll address the points about the medallion later, I gotta hit the gym.

Edit: I’ve noticed you’ve failed to address numerous of my points, can I take that as concession or will you address them in full later? Silence is acquiescence, keep that in mind.

 

[Damage3245]

I don’t think you understand that characters stronger than their past selves beating characters weaker than the characters that previously beat them, is not an anti-feat. I don’t need an exact percentage increase in power. Also you know Bankai increases your base power right? So by increasing your base power you’d make the Bankai stronger. I’ve proved that the Captains got stronger and in the instant the Quincies got weaker. It’s on you to prove the Captains didn’t get stronger if you want to push the anti-feat point. Which you haven’t done since I’ve debunk.

The amount of training that they did is four days... No, I obviously can't prove that there is zero increase in strength, but contextually Toshiro and Soi-Fon both explain what they trained in.

Toshiro trained to fight with less ice.

Soi-Fon trained to improve her Shunko.

Neither make any mention of increasing their base level of strength.

So I wouldn't assume that they significantly improved in a way that makes a difference in how effectively they fight with their Bankai.

Only Byakuya, Renji and Rukia are fair examples of getting much stronger in their base states and that's because some of them unlocked new powers for their Zanpakuto & performed special training in the Soul King's palace.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The amount of training that they did is four days... No, I obviously can't prove that there is zero increase in strength, but contextually Toshiro and Soi-Fon both explain what they trained in.

3 days of training took Ichigo from a level where he’d get killed by Byakuya to a level where he could briefly fight Byakuya’s Bankai with his Shikai. Don’t pretend the training did no increase. Bankai increases your base, if you train your base then you’d be even stronger in Bankai, it’s common sense.

They trained physically, I provided scans, hence their AP would increase, it’s simple.

Also I edited my last message, I’ll be back later.

 

[Damage3245]

Edit: I’ve noticed you’ve failed to address numerous of my points, can I take that as concession or will you address them in full later? Silence is acquiescence, keep that in mind.

A lot of your points are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, in my view at least.

Never take a point being missed out as me saying "You're absolutely right on this point."

 

[Cyberblader90]

i should mention two things.

The thin ice toshiro produces was a fruit of his training, not the ultimate intent. It was to train in skill now that he lost his bankai.

As for Soi Fon, she was evidently training he physicality to improve her shunko. Shunko is part hakuda.

They both would improve to make up for the lost bankai.

 

[Damage3245]

The thin ice toshiro produces was a fruit of his training, not the ultimate intent. It was to train in skill now that he lost his bankai.

To me, "Fight with only skill" seems like the opposite of a power-up to his base stats.

As for Soi Fon, she was evidently training he physicality to improve her shunko. Shunko is part hakuda.

And training physically to improve her Shunko (not her Zanpakuto) would enhance her Nuclear explosion Bankai?

 

[Cyberblader90]

To me, "Fight with only skill" seems like the opposite of a power-up to his base stats.

can you elaborate

 

[KingTempest]

To me, "Fight with only skill" seems like the opposite of a power-up to his base stats.

He's basically learning how to fight with skill instead of just brute raw AP

 

[Cyberblader90]

arc will be replying in a few hours

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

As someone who regularly sticks to a training regime, physical exercise (such as Kendo, what Toshiro was practicing) is quite the arms and upper back workout. So Toshiro practicing Kendo, and physically exercising, would indeed make him stronger. That is how physical training works lol what loop hole must you jump through to say Toshiro didn’t get stronger? But as Cyber said I’ll gather scans and respond in depth when I get home. Seeing all this talk about how physical exercise doesn’t make you stronger and better fit had me scratching holes in my head lmao. Not to mention Toshiro was sweating iirc, as if anyone needed proof he was exerting himself, but apparently we don’t just need visual confirmation he trained we need to be explicitly told he got stronger. I roll my eyes, forgive my heavy sarcasm I can’t help it.

Aside you seem to ignore the fact the Quincy were WEAKENED due to Hollow reiatsu and were visibly caught off guard.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Introduction
I'm going to re-go over some points as there seems to be some confusion, as well as discuss the overall attitude and approach to this current debate. For any points I gloss over here, you can find covered in this post.

Ignoring Points
Damage you've been doing this thing, ever since I started debating you, where you go "I fail to see the relevance thus the point is irrelevant". Not only are you being extremely arrogant and negligent towards the opposition by stating such, it's just plain rude. Everything I bring up is in part to either debunk a point I disagree with or support a point I agree with. So, rather than say "I don't need to address this because I don't see the point", instead try "I'm confused at where you're going with this point, can you please explain the relevancy this has to our current discussion". Not only will that foster healthier dialogue, it will lead to more accurate ratings in the long term, as we will be able to fully flesh everything out. Put yourself in my shoes, imagine you're a regular user and a staff says "I don't see the relevancy I'm going to ignore this", it would feel like being spat at. It's a respect thing, I try my utmost to fully address every point you make, I expect the same in return. Again if something doesn't make sense ask me to go into further detail, I clearly don't mind elaborating I type Bibles lmao. With that out of the way let's continue.

Does training your base increase your Bankai AP?
Let's first clear something up, the opposition is still championing that unless you specifically train your Bankai it can't get stronger. Which is blatantly incorrect, Ichigo is shown training in his base Shikai form which, as per his own statement, will increase his spiritual pressure maximum output. So, by merely exercising your physical body (spiritual in this case technically) you can amp your overall spiritual output. This means that if a Soul Reaper trains physically they will increase all their spiritual powers.

To cite my original post: Toshiro practices his kendo, Shuhei is forced to train in attempts to unlock Bankai, Iba is seen repping out push-ups or sumn, Soi-Fon is doing one armed standing push-ups, Sajin spars with his elder (fighting someone is a form of training), and Byakuya trains so hard As Nodt mistakes his Shikai for Bankai. If you pay attention to the character detail, you'll notice both Toshiro and Soi-Fon physically exhausting themselves, proof that they're physically exerting themselves. Soi-Fon is obviously doing physical training with one-armed push-ups, but there appears to be confusion that Toshiro only increased his skill and didn't physically train. Here you can read about some first hand experiences on the physical exhaustion from Kendo.

To go back to the Ichigo scan, he states that "with the spiritual energy [he has] now, [he] can go at least five days straight [running on the treadmill]", directly correlating one's spiritual energy increase to their physical training. If you train physically in Bleach, you will up your spiritual energy in general, making all your spiritual techniques more powerful. This proves that yes training their bases did increase their base AP, but also their AP in general.

If you would like further evidence to support the fact that you don't have to specifically train your Bankai to increase it's raw AP, Yoruichi states that Bankai amps one's combat abilities by 5-10 times. If one has a base combat ability of 1 and goes Bankai they'd shoot up to a 5, but if one trains their base to a 2 their Bankai becomes a 10. Point in case, training increases your stats overall, it doesn't increase your base and then leave your release states as strong as they were prior to training.

We don't know how much 4 days of training can amp someone
We actually do, let me explain. Prior to Bankai training, Ichigo was incapable of fighting Byakuya and winning as per Yoruichi. We see that Shikai Ichigo is more relative to a base Byakuya, as he blocks a strike with mid-high difficulty, noted by his sweating. However, after the 2-3 days of training, Ichigo is now capable of wounding Byakuya and even takes an attack from Bankai Byakuya with just his Shikai without showing signs of slowing down. Not claiming the 2-3 day training amped Shikai Ichigo from base Byakuya to Bankai Byakuya level, but it was clearly a noticeable amp nonetheless.

Now, as I cited above, the Captains trained for longer than Ichigo did. So, to claim the amp the post-training Captains received is negligible is false, we clearly see that a couple days of serious training can take you from levels where you'd face certain death against a character to being able to fight said character as equals. Therefore, the 4 days that the Captains were allowed to train is enough time to amp them, and in combination with my previous section, it is enough of an amp where you cannot assert that their Bankai are equal to their pre-training Bankai in power.

Weakened Ritter
To again cite my earlier post,: right before regaining their Bankai, Kisuke explains the mechanism behind the process. Kisuke notes that his method of regaining Bankai has two advantages: 1) it weakens the Quincy and 2) it poisons the Quincy. Meaning that by recovering the Bankai through the hollowfication pills, the Ritter will become damaged and be nerfed at the same time. We directly see this as BG9's functions start to fail and slow down, then while he's weakened and off guard he gets blasted by Soi-Fon's Bankai. Same with Cang Du, he gets blindsided by the Hollow reiatsu, Toshiro's Bankai begins to Hollowfy, and he freezes Cang Du. The point being that the Quincy that lost were caught off guard, poisoned, and were nerfed by Kisuke's ploy.

I bring this up because it's been neglected, and the opposition is seemingly under the impression that if they debunk the Captains Bankai getting stronger then they win the point there. To which I disagree, the Ritter being weakened has yet to be debunked. So even if (not they are as I indicate above) the Captains remained at the same level of strength, beating a weakened, off guard Sternritter is not an anti-feat for said Sternritter.

Again to sum up the anti-feat argument debunk: the Captains were shown training during the time in between invasions, which would amp their Bankai AP (as indicated by Ichigo's training prior in the series) and received partial Hollow amps (that as I explained in my last big post, Hollowfication is a power beyond Bankai, so even a little bit should go a long way. All of this would mean that the Captains have received a significant amp in between the invasions. Secondly, the Quincy were not only weakened (as per Urahara), but in some cases, visibly caught off guard. All of that meaning the Ritter were weakened by a degree during the fight. Thus, I believe I have thoroughly proven that the Captains vs the Ritter part 2 are not only stronger than the first fight, but the Ritter are also weaker than the first fight, meaning that the Ritter losing is by no means an anti-feat.

Stealing vs Sealing confusion
There appears, and correct me if I'm wrong, to be confusion surrounding my steal/seal point. So let me simplify the explanation.

The opposition have claimed the following: the Zanpakuto allows it so that Shinigami in base are allowed to wield their Bankai without scaling to their Bankai in base. Then they further claim that the Medallion can function the same way such that the Ritter only need to scale to the Shikai of the Captain to steal their Bankai.

My point is the following: you cannot assume the Medallion and Zanpakuto function in the same way. To elaborate, just because the Zanpakuto can seal away the blade's power such that the Shinigami in base don't need to scale to the Bankai does not mean the Medallion must work in that same fashion.

In fact I prove the opposite, let me explain again. Here is what I said regarding this in my last post: furthermore, the notion that the Quincy only need to be relative to the base/Shikai is directly contradicted by the manga. Bazz himself states he was able to use his flames to mitigate the damage to himself and the other Quincies from Yama's Shikai. Obviously Bazz still was burnt, however not only was he not taken out of the fight by Shikai Yama, he was even capable of offsetting Shikai Yama's flames enough so that he could continue fighting fine. While Bazz certainly isn't equal to base/Shikai Yama, he is very much so relative. Another case of a Sternritter scaling to or even above Shikai Yama is Gremmy. Not only does Gremmy have better feats than Shikai Yama, lore wise he has better statements as well. Gremmy can destroy the entirety of Seireitei via statements, meanwhile Shikai Yama was only going to vaporize a town. This is reflected in their ratings on site as well, seeing that Gremmy scales above Shikai Yama. Royd is also able to block a swing from Shikai Yama with his bare arm only receiving a mild cut. That being said, only Yhwach could contain Yamamoto's Bankai. Despite their being Quincy with better feats than Shikai Yama, and Quincy that scale relative if not equal to Shikai Yama, only Yhwach could steal his Bankai. Point in case, the notion that the Sternritter need to be relative to the Captains' Shikai to steal their Bankai is directly contradicted and makes no sense.

That was wordy, so I'll shorten it. If Ritter only need to be relative to a Captain's Shikai to steal the Bankai, then why couldn't Royd steal Yamamoto's Shikai? We see clearly that he's not only able to keep up with Shikai Yama, but he's also capable of blocking a strike with his bare arm whilst only receiving a cut. However, despite Royd being more than capable of tussling with Shikai Yamamoto, only Yhwach could steal Yama's Bankai. Same points can be made for Bazz (albeit less so than Royd) and Gremmy. Bazz has the feat of mitigating Shikai Yama's flames with his own, proving that Bazz is somewhat relative to Shikai Yama, and Gremmy blatantly has better feats than Shikai Yama (which is reflected in their profiles). However, all the same only Yhwach can steal Yama's Bankai. This debunks the notion that you only need to be relative to the Shikai to steal the Bankai, as that is directly contradicted.

Damage was a bit confused on my tangent about Yhwach scaling to Ichibe and Ichibe scaling to or above Bankai Yama. So let me clear that up as well. The reason I brought that up was to show that Yhwach scales to Bankai Yama through more than his "only I can control your Bankai" statement. The point being to further support the notion that yes Yhwach scales to Bankai Yama, justifying the current accepted claim that the Ritter who stole the Bankai are relative to said Bankai. Rather than to say, "well Yhwach scales regardless of the statement", by showing that he can scale regardless of the statement I add validity to the interpretation that stealing Bankai means you're relative, not saying "the current justification is wrong here's a new one". I implore you to reread that section and ask any clarifying questions you have regarding it.

Why I think I am winning the debate
To be honest, as the anti-feat argument is damage's only evidence against our current stolen Bankai Ritter justifications, outside of arguing the semantics of Yhwach's statement, I believe winning this point is the majorly deciding factor in this debate. To elaborate, if the Ritter don't have any legit anti-feats, then there exists no evidence to doubt the current accepted scaling. As damage made the original assertion (as he created the OP), the burden of proof is on him to provide evidence that the second invasion battles are truly anti-feats, or he loses the point and has no proper justification for his claim.

To assert that Yhwach's claim cannot pertain to being relative in power, and thus I have no backings to defend the current scaling is facetious as well. That being because, said scaling has been accepted, which would inherently mean that Yhwach's statement referring to relativity in power is not a far-fetched or "impossible" claim. To go further, the arguments over Yhwach's claim are purely semantics, but as I said earlier, the interpretation that it is saying the Ritter are comparable to the stolen Bankai is an acceptable interpretation. And again, being that damage made the claim that the Ritter shouldn't scale, and he made the first assertion, the burden of proof by definition is on damage to prove his claim or he loses the point. I have to debunk damage's point, not prove the current scaling, and damage must disprove the current scaling, debunking my points.

Finally, not to be that guy (but I totally am), my most recent long post (the one linked in the introduction) has the most likes of the current positions. Indicating that my stance is currently the more accepted stance by the popular vote.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

Introduction
I'm going to re-go over some points as there seems to be some confusion, as well as discuss the overall attitude and approach to this current debate. For any points I gloss over here, you can find covered in this post.

Ignoring Points
Damage you've been doing this thing, ever since I started debating you, where you go "I fail to see the relevance thus the point is irrelevant". Not only are you being extremely arrogant and negligent towards the opposition by stating such, it's just plain rude. Everything I bring up is in part to either debunk a point I disagree with or support a point I agree with. So, rather than say "I don't need to address this because I don't see the point", instead try "I'm confused at where you're going with this point, can you please explain the relevancy this has to our current discussion". Not only will that foster healthier dialogue, it will lead to more accurate ratings in the long term, as we will be able to fully flesh everything out. Put yourself in my shoes, imagine you're a regular user and a staff says "I don't see the relevancy I'm going to ignore this", it would feel like being spat at. It's a respect thing, I try my utmost to fully address every point you make, I expect the same in return. Again if something doesn't make sense ask me to go into further detail, I clearly don't mind elaborating I type Bibles lmao. With that out of the way let's continue.

Does training your base increase your Bankai AP?
Let's first clear something up, the opposition is still championing that unless you specifically train your Bankai it can't get stronger. Which is blatantly incorrect, Ichigo is shown training in his base Shikai form which, as per his own statement, will increase his spiritual pressure maximum output. So, by merely exercising your physical body (spiritual in this case technically) you can amp your overall spiritual output. This means that if a Soul Reaper trains physically they will increase all their spiritual powers.

To cite my original post: Toshiro practices his kendo, Shuhei is forced to train in attempts to unlock Bankai, Iba is seen repping out push-ups or sumn, Soi-Fon is doing one armed standing push-ups, Sajin spars with his elder (fighting someone is a form of training), and Byakuya trains so hard As Nodt mistakes his Shikai for Bankai. If you pay attention to the character detail, you'll notice both Toshiro and Soi-Fon physically exhausting themselves, proof that they're physically exerting themselves. Soi-Fon is obviously doing physical training with one-armed push-ups, but there appears to be confusion that Toshiro only increased his skill and didn't physically train. Here you can read about some first hand experiences on the physical exhaustion from Kendo.

To go back to the Ichigo scan, he states that "with the spiritual energy [he has] now, [he] can go at least five days straight [running on the treadmill]", directly correlating one's spiritual energy increase to their physical training. If you train physically in Bleach, you will up your spiritual energy in general, making all your spiritual techniques more powerful. This proves that yes training their bases did increase their base AP, but also their AP in general.

If you would like further evidence to support the fact that you don't have to specifically train your Bankai to increase it's raw AP, Yoruichi states that Bankai amps one's combat abilities by 5-10 times. If one has a base combat ability of 1 and goes Bankai they'd shoot up to a 5, but if one trains their base to a 2 their Bankai becomes a 10. Point in case, training increases your stats overall, it doesn't increase your base and then leave your release states as strong as they were prior to training.

We don't know how much 4 days of training can amp someone
We actually do, let me explain. Prior to Bankai training, Ichigo was incapable of fighting Byakuya and winning as per Yoruichi. We see that Shikai Ichigo is more relative to a base Byakuya, as he blocks a strike with mid-high difficulty, noted by his sweating. However, after the 2-3 days of training, Ichigo is now capable of wounding Byakuya and even takes an attack from Bankai Byakuya with just his Shikai without showing signs of slowing down. Not claiming the 2-3 day training amped Shikai Ichigo from base Byakuya to Bankai Byakuya level, but it was clearly a noticeable amp nonetheless.

Now, as I cited above, the Captains trained for longer than Ichigo did. So, to claim the amp the post-training Captains received is negligible is false, we clearly see that a couple days of serious training can take you from levels where you'd face certain death against a character to being able to fight said character as equals. Therefore, the 4 days that the Captains were allowed to train is enough time to amp them, and in combination with my previous section, it is enough of an amp where you cannot assert that their Bankai are equal to their pre-training Bankai in power.

Weakened Ritter
To again cite my earlier post,: right before regaining their Bankai, Kisuke explains the mechanism behind the process. Kisuke notes that his method of regaining Bankai has two advantages: 1) it weakens the Quincy and 2) it poisons the Quincy. Meaning that by recovering the Bankai through the hollowfication pills, the Ritter will become damaged and be nerfed at the same time. We directly see this as BG9's functions start to fail and slow down, then while he's weakened and off guard he gets blasted by Soi-Fon's Bankai. Same with Cang Du, he gets blindsided by the Hollow reiatsu, Toshiro's Bankai begins to Hollowfy, and he freezes Cang Du. The point being that the Quincy that lost were caught off guard, poisoned, and were nerfed by Kisuke's ploy.

I bring this up because it's been neglected, and the opposition is seemingly under the impression that if they debunk the Captains Bankai getting stronger then they win the point there. To which I disagree, the Ritter being weakened has yet to be debunked. So even if (not they are as I indicate above) the Captains remained at the same level of strength, beating a weakened, off guard Sternritter is not an anti-feat for said Sternritter.

Again to sum up the anti-feat argument debunk: the Captains were shown training during the time in between invasions, which would amp their Bankai AP (as indicated by Ichigo's training prior in the series) and received partial Hollow amps (that as I explained in my last big post, Hollowfication is a power beyond Bankai, so even a little bit should go a long way. All of this would mean that the Captains have received a significant amp in between the invasions. Secondly, the Quincy were not only weakened (as per Urahara), but in some cases, visibly caught off guard. All of that meaning the Ritter were weakened by a degree during the fight. Thus, I believe I have thoroughly proven that the Captains vs the Ritter part 2 are not only stronger than the first fight, but the Ritter are also weaker than the first fight, meaning that the Ritter losing is by no means an anti-feat.

Stealing vs Sealing confusion
There appears, and correct me if I'm wrong, to be confusion surrounding my steal/seal point. So let me simplify the explanation.

The opposition have claimed the following: the Zanpakuto allows it so that Shinigami in base are allowed to wield their Bankai without scaling to their Bankai in base. Then they further claim that the Medallion can function the same way such that the Ritter only need to scale to the Shikai of the Captain to steal their Bankai.

My point is the following: you cannot assume the Medallion and Zanpakuto function in the same way. To elaborate, just because the Zanpakuto can seal away the blade's power such that the Shinigami in base don't need to scale to the Bankai does not mean the Medallion must work in that same fashion.

In fact I prove the opposite, let me explain again. Here is what I said regarding this in my last post: furthermore, the notion that the Quincy only need to be relative to the base/Shikai is directly contradicted by the manga. Bazz himself states he was able to use his flames to mitigate the damage to himself and the other Quincies from Yama's Shikai. Obviously Bazz still was burnt, however not only was he not taken out of the fight by Shikai Yama, he was even capable of offsetting Shikai Yama's flames enough so that he could continue fighting fine. While Bazz certainly isn't equal to base/Shikai Yama, he is very much so relative. Another case of a Sternritter scaling to or even above Shikai Yama is Gremmy. Not only does Gremmy have better feats than Shikai Yama, lore wise he has better statements as well. Gremmy can destroy the entirety of Seireitei via statements, meanwhile Shikai Yama was only going to vaporize a town. This is reflected in their ratings on site as well, seeing that Gremmy scales above Shikai Yama. Royd is also able to block a swing from Shikai Yama with his bare arm only receiving a mild cut. That being said, only Yhwach could contain Yamamoto's Bankai. Despite their being Quincy with better feats than Shikai Yama, and Quincy that scale relative if not equal to Shikai Yama, only Yhwach could steal his Bankai. Point in case, the notion that the Sternritter need to be relative to the Captains' Shikai to steal their Bankai is directly contradicted and makes no sense.

That was wordy, so I'll shorten it. If Ritter only need to be relative to a Captain's Shikai to steal the Bankai, then why couldn't Royd steal Yamamoto's Shikai? We see clearly that he's not only able to keep up with Shikai Yama, but he's also capable of blocking a strike with his bare arm whilst only receiving a cut. However, despite Royd being more than capable of tussling with Shikai Yamamoto, only Yhwach could steal Yama's Bankai. Same points can be made for Bazz (albeit less so than Royd) and Gremmy. Bazz has the feat of mitigating Shikai Yama's flames with his own, proving that Bazz is somewhat relative to Shikai Yama, and Gremmy blatantly has better feats than Shikai Yama (which is reflected in their profiles). However, all the same only Yhwach can steal Yama's Bankai. This debunks the notion that you only need to be relative to the Shikai to steal the Bankai, as that is directly contradicted.

Damage was a bit confused on my tangent about Yhwach scaling to Ichibe and Ichibe scaling to or above Bankai Yama. So let me clear that up as well. The reason I brought that up was to show that Yhwach scales to Bankai Yama through more than his "only I can control your Bankai" statement. The point being to further support the notion that yes Yhwach scales to Bankai Yama, justifying the current accepted claim that the Ritter who stole the Bankai are relative to said Bankai. Rather than to say, "well Yhwach scales regardless of the statement", by showing that he can scale regardless of the statement, I add validity to the interpretation that stealing Bankai means you're relative. I implore you to reread that section and ask any clarifying questions you have regarding it.

Why I think I am winning the debate
To be honest, as the anti-feat argument is damage's only evidence against our current stolen Bankai Ritter justifications, outside of arguing the semantics of Yhwach's statement, I believe winning this point is the majorly deciding factor in this debate. To elaborate, if the Ritter don't have any legit anti-feats, then there exists no evidence to doubt the current accepted scaling. As damage made the original assertion (as he created the OP), the burden of proof is on him to provide evidence that the second invasion battles are truly anti-feats, or he loses the point and has no proper justification for his claim.

To assert that Yhwach's claim cannot pertain to being relative in power, and thus I have no backings to defend the current scaling is facetious as well. That being because, said scaling has been accepted, which would inherently mean that Yhwach's statement referring to relativity in power is not a far-fetched or "impossible" claim. To go further, the arguments over Yhwach's claim are purely semantics, but as I said early, the interpretation that it is saying the Ritter are comparable to the stolen Bankai is an acceptable interpretation. And again, being that damage made the claim that the Ritter shouldn't scale, and he made the first assertion, the burden of proof by definition is on damage to prove his claim or he loses the point. I have to debunk damage's point, not prove the current scaling, and damage must disprove the current scaling, debunking my points.

Finally, not to be that guy (but I totally am), my most recent long post (the one linked in the introduction) has the most likes of the current positions. Indicating that my stance is currently the more accepted stance by the popular vote.

Preach, I think Damage is just a bit confused from what you're saying which is why he's a bit flawed on his argument. I agree with your argument Arc.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Preach, I think Damage is just a bit confused from what you're saying which is why he's a bit flawed on his argument. I agree with your argument Arc.

If my points are confusing, I'll try re-wording em I don't mind, I just get peeved when they get ignored because other people don't think they're relevant. A clarifying question is free lol.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

A heads-up, for the next 4 days I’ll be busy so I’ll be replying infrequently. I ask that you not conclude any unresolved point I’m a part of because my responses are slim in number for a few days. It is just a fictional verse after all, not like there are deadlines. However, I understand that I cannot force you to do anything, rather I merely ask for patience.

 

[Damage3245]

Finally, not to be that guy (but I totally am), my most recent long post (the one linked in the introduction) has the most likes of the current positions. Indicating that my stance is currently the more accepted stance by the popular vote.

This is so irrelevant that it isn't even funny. Are you surprised in any way that the proposal that is in favor of upgrading Bleach statistics is the one that is recieving more likes from people?

We don't decide things by who gets the most likes. Some people could be liking your post simply because it is well-written and shows effort. Others because it is a Pro-Bleach argument.

 

[Damage3245]

Does training your base increase your Bankai AP?

The issue is not "Do they train to increase their base statistics", it is "Is the change in their base statistics significant enough to be relevant."

As I said, if a characters gets a tiny fraction of an amount stronger - then it's not going to change the scaling significantly.

We don't know how much 4 days of training can amp someone

You're assuming that the training the Captains did would be relative at all to the intense training that Ichigo went under. Ichigo went under a form of training invented by Urahara that reduced the process of awakening his Bankai from years to merely days.

If it takes Captains, typically, a matter of years to get significant results from their training, then I would not assume that four days of their typical training would significantly alter their statistics.

Special exceptions being Byakuya, Kenpachi, Rukia, Renji, etc. for their specific methods of training and the new powers they achieved.

Weakened Ritter

This point about the Sternritter being weakened only makes sense if you're already assuming that the Sternritter wouldn't have been one-shot before, so therefore the poisoning must have lowered their durability. BG9's at least solely seems to be about him getting slower / being unable to dodge. Nothing about his durability being lowered drastically.

Cang Du, granted, doesn't appear majorly harmed but he was simply frozen instead of being blown up like BG9 and he specifically has an ability that makes him virtually invulnerable it would seem.

Stealing vs Sealing confusion

Have you considered that it is possible that Shikai Yama, at full strength, could still be scaling stronger than those individuals that you mentioned; Royd, Bazz-B and Gremmy.

I was told on another CRT here that "feats aren't limitations". We scale the characters appropriately from what feats we have, but that's for the sake of the profiles. It's not making an objective statement that Bazz-B has to be relative to full-power Yamamoto. Or Gremmy can't be any weaker than Yamamoto's full power. For all we know, Gremmy could steal the Bankai but be unable to imagine himself controlling it, ending up in a Kenpachi situation.

Let's get into the specifics of Yhwach stealing the Bankai versus Yamamoto controlling his own Bankai.

1) Does being able to control an enormous amount of power mean you are capable of creating an enormous amount of power yourself? I can think of another verses where this isn't the case.

1. In Naruto characters like Obito have an enormous power sealed into them in the form of the Ten-Tails. Obito, after a fashion, is able to control that power at will and can produce attacks far beyond what is capable without that power. Being able to manipulate a power that can produce X amount of energy says nothing about his ability to create it himself.

There are likely more cases out there where characters acquire a new weapon or ability which boosts their power and doesn't mean their original self was just as powerful.

2) Yamamoto's full power of his Zanpakuto is sealed away in stages so that he has to go through Shikai and Bankai in order to activate it. Yhwach's Medallion seals away the power of Yamamoto's Bankai so that he can activate it.

Both of them can activate the Bankai through different means, sure. But that doesn't explain why one of the methods requires the base state to be capable of outputting attacks that are equal to the Bankai.

It doesn't have anything to do with being able to withstand the amount of energy, because Yamamoto's Bankai clearly increases his durability. So the Bankai would increase the durability for Yhwach as well. Retracting this point.

It doesn't have anything to do with how much energy you can emit on your own - because Yamamoto's Bankai clearly increases his AP. So the Banaki would increase Yhwach's AP as well.

In short it just seems like this argument of the methods comes down to "They're different, so Yhwach has to be equal to the Bankai." which doesn't logically follow to me.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

It doesn't have anything to do with being able to withstand the amount of energy, because Yamamoto's Bankai clearly increases his durability. So the Bankai would increase the durability for Yhwach as well.

Uhh no it doesn’t increase his durability? He has an invisible flaming barrier which just deletes incoming attacks.

 

[Damage3245]

Uhh no it doesn’t increase his durability? He has an invisible flaming barrier which just deletes incoming attacks.

I'll retract that, I made a mistake when going over the profiles.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This is so irrelevant that it isn't even funny. Are you surprised in any way that the proposal that is in favor of upgrading Bleach statistics is the one that is recieving more likes from people?

We don't decide things by who gets the most likes. Some people could be liking your post simply because it is well-written and shows effort. Others because it is a Pro-Bleach argument.

You can’t say shit like this and get angry when people say your stuff only goes through because you’re staff. It’s a two way street. If you want to pull this shit then don’t get angry when other people pull the “staff power abuse”. Like what’s your problem, if you wanna be snarky, come at my personally, not in thread. I don’t care to here your excuses as to why your arguments aren’t doing as well as mine.

Edit: it’s funny b/c I knew you’d pull the “it’s because it’s pro-Bleach”. You’re so arrogant it’s not even funny, maybe show some respect and others won’t attack you so much. I’ll respond to your points later.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't think it was arrogant of him to point out that we don't decide things by popularity polls. You shouldn't have committed that fallacy in the first place. Now, I would appreciate if we can go back to discussing what's really relevant instead of doing this.