Sternritter Profiles Revision [Bleach]

[Arc7Kuroi]

We can continue debating while waiting for Tempest’s input no worries

 

[Loyd]

im sorry only minor hollow and minor nerf poisoning, Zenkai no one has refuted reio so it stands and Training soifon likely shunko imo,
hitsugaya training skill, he also mentioned in the scan after the aizen battle he was refining bankai so it could be a different method,
but training normal stats amps bankai should it return is reasonable.

 

[KingTempest]

I’ll ask KingTempest again since he’s the only other staff to weigh in this thread.

I’m honored ig

Well me personally, I don’t see anything wrong with the Zenkai boost. We don’t assume that Saiyans only get stronger in certain fights or that Haki users only get stronger in certain fights, and it’d be hypocritical for me to disagree here and agree for other similar situations, so I guess it’s fine.

Unless there’s a statement of any Shinigami after a fight saying they’re the same strength, or a canonical counter, of some antifeats, it should be fine, but that’s just me.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

im sorry only minor hollow and minor nerf poisoning, Zenkai no one has refuted reio so it stands and Training soifon likely shunko imo,
hitsugaya training skill, he also mentioned in the scan after the aizen battle he was refining bankai so it could be a different method,
but training normal stats amps bankai should it return is reasonable.

if you look at the scans I provided, you’d understand that physical training increases your overall spiritual pressure and spirit energy. A Bankai is a release of your innate spirit pressure/energy, if you have a higher and more potent reiatsu, you’ll have a higher and more potent Bankai.

Quit the whole “they were minor” you haven’t proven so. Clearly training and receiving amps couldn’t have been that minor when it enables them to win.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m honored ig

Thanks for weighing in!

 

[KingTempest]

Now another issue I see is a HUGE tier jump with the boosts, which is another issue.

Is the large jumps consistent? Like do they regularly get boosts of that caliber or are we just assuming that this case is superior to other cases of the boost?

 

[Loyd]

if you look at the scans I provided, you’d understand that physical training increases your overall spiritual pressure and spirit energy. A Bankai is a release of your innate spirit pressure/energy, if you have a higher and more potent reiatsu, you’ll have a higher and more potent Bankai.

i don't disagree?

Quit the whole “they were minor” you haven’t proven so. Clearly training and receiving amps couldn’t have been that minor when it enables them to win.

the only thing thats minor is the hollow amp and reishi poisoning

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Now another issue I see is a HUGE tier jump with the boosts, which is another issue.

Is the large jumps consistent? Like do they regularly get boosts of that caliber or are we just assuming that this case is superior to other cases of the boost?

The characters in question aren’t making any huge jumps. In tiering at least.

This is more so deciding the Ritter’s tiering.

 

[Loyd]

Now another issue I see is a HUGE tier jump with the boosts, which is another issue.

Is the large jumps consistent? Like do they regularly get boosts of that caliber or are we just assuming that this case is superior to other cases of the boost?

they had other "reasons" along side the zenkai boost

 

[KingTempest]

The training correct?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The training correct?

The Captains received training + zenkai + partial Hollow amps. Whereas the Quincy received a Hollow nerf.

So Captains amped multiple times beat Ritter who were weakened.

 

[KingTempest]

Since I’ve barely opened this thread, I need to look over it more for context.

When I’m near my computer I’ll type a better response. Typing off a phone in a car is difficult.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Since I’ve barely opened this thread, I need to look over it more for context.

When I’m near my computer I’ll type a better response. Typing off a phone in a car is difficult.

Ofc no rush, enjoy the car ride

 

[Loyd]

yes was it 4 days? training, the sternritters were poisoned, one bleeded for using bankai, internal dmg that stunned thr movement, thr reishi reduced and captains recieved a tiny hollow amp

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

yes was it 4 days? training, the sternritters were poisoned, one bleeded for using bankai, internal dmg that stunned thr movement, thr reishi reduced and captains recieved a tiny hollow amp

Yup 4 days, and they had received zenkai post first invasion.

 

[Loyd]

has it been only damage doing bleach related crts? from what i know are the other staff tired of it?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah it’s been like that since I’ve been active, the exception being the staff only downgrade thread. Then there are guest star appearances from the likes of Tempest and Jvando.

 

[Loyd]

i was thr for the second coming of yhwach Tier 2 lets hope he gets in on the third.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

i was thr for the second coming of yhwach Tier 2 lets hope he gets in on the third.

If you wanna talk more about uni Bleach you can message my discord I’ve got a few new arguments

 

[Loyd]

i need to finish the last two novels when i have the time but will do.

 

[Tsotso]

.


Before I start adressing Arc's points, I feel like I should first debunk one certain false notion he uses multiple times throughout his response and I'll do it here at the top of this post so I won't have to constantly copy+paste it:

Why Ichigo's 2 day training cannot be used to estimate how big of an amp the captains got from their 4 day training

Arc's main argument hinges on this flawed comparison. But it doesn't work. The reason for this is because the rate at which Ichigo grows stronger and develops his powers is greater than Shinigami captains. Here's why:

1. Yoruichi considers the pace at which Ichigo's improving to be "frightening".
2. Byakuya notes how Ichigo has mastered Shunpo between their encounter in Karakura town and their fight on Sokyoku hill, even though Ichigo got blitzed by Byakuya who was nerfed by 5x during their first encounter yet he could keep up with an unsuppressed Byakuya during the Sokyoku hill fight. That is a huge improvement in a relatively short amount of time. Meanwhile, the captains weren't massively outsped by the Sternritter during the first Seireitei invasion and weren't blitzing them during the second Seireitei invasion, meaning that their improvement during the time between the first and second invasions doesn't even compare to Ichigo's during the Soul Society arc.
3. Ichigo had recently become a Shinigami and was only just beginning to unlock and master his powers. Renji notes during their first fight how much of a novice Ichigo was, meaning that he had more initial room to grow than a captain who's achieved Bankai decades of centuries ago.
4. Aizen considers Ichigo's improvement "magnificent" and comments that he's really grown throughout the Arrancar arc. Aizen isn't someone who's impressed by captains such as Hitsugaya and Soifon
5. The main reason - Urahara claims that Ichigo's talent and rate of improvement is even greater than his own which is proven true when Ichigo masters Bankai in two days whereas it took Urahara three. Keep in mind that Urahara himself is a prodigy who's on the level of base Aizen during the Fake Karakura Town arc, meaning he's stronger than Kyoraku and Ukitake, two of the oldest and most powerful captains, even though they've been Shinigami longer than he has and have had more time to get stronger. Yet Urahara's rate of improvement is above theirs and Ichigo's rate of improvement is confirmed to be above even Urahara's.

So trying to claim that Hitsugaya and Soifon, who have had Bankai achieved for decades and so didn't have the huge initial progression that comes with recently acquiring and starting to develop Shinigami powers like Ichigo in the SS arc did and aren't at the rate of improvement Ichigo is at anyways, got a similar boost in power to Ichigo during their respective trainings doesn't make much sense.



I'd also like to point another thing out before starting debunking Arc's points:

Explaining why the Zenkai boost argument doesn't work for the unquantifiable amps the captains received between the first and second invasion of Seireitei

As some people have brought up, characters in Bleach get stronger when they survive a near-death experience during battle or when they take a lot of damage and then recover. While this is absolutely true, it doesn't matter in the discussion about the amps of the captains between the two invasions of Seireitei.

The reason for this is simple - they weren't near death or take a lot of damage during the first invasion.

The two captains involved in the discussion about the amps and the anti-feats are Hitsugaya and Soifon. They didn't receive a Zenkai boost during the first invasion as they weren't shown to have taken much damage during their respective fights.

• Cang using Toshiro's Bankai was negated by Yama's passive heat and couldn't be used after Yama died as Yhwach ordered the Sternritter to retreat after it happened in order to wait untile Squad Zero arrives.
• Soifon's Bankai is a one time missile which was obviously not used against her by BG9 during the first invasion due to her not being blown up by the end of the invasion.

Furthermore, here is every instance in which they are seen during the first invasion. They clearly haven't taken any major damage, certainly not enough for a Zenkai boost. They don't have any signs of significant injuries during the post-invasion meeting either.



Anyways, let's continue with Arc's points about the anti-feats

No, it goes more like this: Captains trained for 4 days -> Ichigo training for 2 days gave him a massive amp, so 4 days should be enough for a significant amp -> Captains logically are stronger now that they physically training -> Captains end up defeating the Sternritter, proving the fruits of their training (sort of the Ritter were weakened)

I already explained above why that way of scaling their training amps doesn't work.

Awesome so we agree the Shinigami got stronger

Nobody denied them getting stronger to some unknown degree which Arc hasn't proved is the reason their Bankai could one shot the Sternritter.

therefore the Ritter didn't lose to Captains who were at the same level that got their Bankai stolen, thus the Ritter losing to stronger Captains isn't an anti-feat.

The 2nd invasion captains weren't precisely equal to their 1st invasion selves but there's no proof for them being on a much higher level of power.

Also, I did give you a ballpark for how massive a few days of training can amp you with Ichigo's training.

I already explained at the beginning of this post why that way of scaling their training amps doesn't work.

To spell it out, the anti-feat point is as follows: "The Ritter lost to the Bankai they stole, thus they aren't as strong as the Bankai they stole." This point only works if the Captains in the second invasion are on par with their first invasion selves. You must prove that the Bankai are at the same/similar levels. Saying "the Ritter lost" doesn't work when we know the Captains trained, we don't assume characters back scale when they train and get stronger, not how this works.

Nope. The anti-feat point is as follows: "The Ritter lost to the Bankai they stole which had an amp that can't be proven to be significant, thus they aren't as strong as the Bankai they stole when looking at it from an objective, definitive standpoint." It doesn't work only if 1st invasion captains = 2nd invasion captains. Nobody claimed that. It works because the training and very minor hollowfication amps are unknown so the one who has to prove they are significant amps is you as the person making a claim about something uncertain.
Furthermore, there are other more definitive reasons to think the captains weren't significant and weren't the reason for the Sternritter getting one shot. But that comes later.

I'm unsure of where you're going with this, like do we agree the Quincies were weakened (because that was what was stated)?

I merely pointed out an inaccuracy in what you said here:

Arc7Kuroi said:
Right before regaining their Bankai, Kisuke explains the mechanism behind the process. Kisuke notes that his method of regaining Bankai has two advantages: 1) it weakens the Quincy and 2) it poisons the Quincy.

I do agree that the Sternritter were weakened to some unknown degree at that time because it is actually stated unlike your headcanon impressions about the training and very minor hollowfication amps. However, since we don't know how much it weakened them and the only thing we have to go off is BG9 saying his systems were slowed, there's no evidence which proves that the Sternritter's sheer durability was impacted by the hollow energy.

Tsotso said:
Not true. As Nodt, Bambietta and BG9 weren't damaged when the Bankai was recovered. Only Cang was, and the only discernible reason for that was because he was the only one out of the four who was using the Bankai at the time.

Ok

Ok

Tsotso said:
Which isn't the same as being damaged. It also doesn't mean his durability was nerfed, as that is like saying a human's body becomes less durable is their blood flow slows down.

Ehhhh semantics, his internal systems were damaged, you don't need an external wound like a cut, to be considered physically damaged.

Calling something "sEmAnTiCs" doesn't serve as an argument. His internal systems were only stated to have been slowed, not damaged. They are two different things.

"WHAT!? Why is that Bankai with you!?" sounds like surprise and thus taken by surprise to me.

He was surprised that she got her Bankai back but he wasn't caught by surprise by the missile itself. He was looking directly at Soifon and as soon as he saw she had her Bankai, he knew she would shoot a missile at him. Yet despite that, he couldn't do anything to defend himself.

Tsotso said:
Toshiro's Bankai beginning to hollowfy is not actual full hollowfication and is unquantifiable.
Cang was only caught off guard by the initial hollow reiatsu damaging him. After that, he continued fighting Toshiro while fully on guard yet he was still frozen without being able to do anything about it.

But it's still an amp

Nobody denied that, so what's the point in saying it?
More importantly, Arc has just admitted that Toshiro's small ice can't be scaled to proper Hollowfication which means he concedes that statements about proper Hollowfication can't be used to argue that Toshiro's eye covering ice is a relevant amp.

I've given you a training amp the Captains get (quantified by Ichigo's lesser day amount of training providing insane results), Hollowfication is just icing on the cake.

1. I already explained at the beginning of this post why that way of scaling their training amps doesn't work.
2. *Small barely hollowfied ice covering one eye due to a split second infusion of tiny hollow energy is just icing on the cake that has now been debunked.

The Captains were amped twice for this fight, but you still think they're relative to their first invasion selves?

Their amps are completely unknown in terms of how big they are and your only attempt to quantify one of them has been debunked at the beginning of this post.

Stacking multiple unknown power amps on top of each other doesn't mean anything as they are still unknown.

Well shit lets start back scaling post-training arc characters because the amps aren't quantifiable. Well, they aren't quantifiable until said character fights a character that proves they got stronger... oh wait, if you train, the way you can be shown the results of said training is beating a character that used to be your equal or relative... sounds familiar.

Arc is begging the qustion. It would only sound familiar if Arc's conclusion about the amps being significant was right, but he hasn't proven that and can't quantify them. All all he's been doing is say "But there were two different amps instead of just one" which doesn't prove anything as you could have ten unquantifiable amps and them being unqantifiable would still prevent them from being a relevant increase from an objective, definitive standpoint.

Point in case, we know the Captains got stronger through training, so how do we gauge this increase? One way is by comparing their post training fights to their pre training fights.

This doesn't prove Arc's point.

In the first invasion, Byakuya got stomped by his Bankai while Komamura, Hitsugaya and Soifon just couldn't beat their opponents during the course of the first invasion without Bankai.

• Toshiro's Bankai was negated by Yama's passive heat and couldn't be used after Yama died as Yhwach ordered the Sternritter to retreat after it happened in order to wait untile Squad Zero arrives.
• Soifon's Bankai is a one time missile which was obviously not used against her by BG9 due to her not being blown up by the end of the invasion.
• Komamura in Shikai survived the invasion because Bambietta was just toying around with her sword instead of blowing him and the Shinigami up with her Shrift.

In the second invasion, Byakuya was above As Nodt due to his Royal Guard power up, Sajin underwent humanification and Hitsugaya and Soifon beat their respective opponents once they could use their Bankai again.

• Byakuya had gotten way stronger not only due to training but also due to his zenkai boost from when he nearly died and due to him bathing in Kirinji's hot springs.
• Komamura underwent humanification which may have given him an amp on top of immortality due to his Bankai changing but that is irrelevant since he beat Bambietta with a combination of his Bankai and her own attacks.
• Hitsugaya and Soifon one shot the Sternritter with their Bankai.

I don't see how making these comparisons proves anything like Arc says.

The BG9 off guard thing is questionable at worst

I already went over this earlier. He wasn't hit with a sneak attack. He was looking directly at the Bankai launching the missile and therefore saw it coming but just couldn't do anything about it.

The Captains train and get stronger from training, as training is shown to do in verse (physical exercise increases your spiritual pressure as I proved earlier). So boom we know they got stronger,

Once again, nobody denied that and it doesn't prove anything. The amps existing doesn't mean they are relevant amps.

The Captains can now beat the Ritter with partial Hollow amps -> THIS is the fruits of their efforts. I'll say it again and again: Captains trained -> training makes you stronger in Bleach -> Captains with partial Hollow amps beat the Ritter that smacked them around earlier -> the results of the training is defeating the Ritter.

Arc is begging the question once again.
The fruits of their efforts are unknown and would only be the reason they one shot the Sternritter if and only if his conclusion about the base Sternritter being equal to Bankai was true. But that's the thing he's trying to prove. So Arc is trying to prove the conclusion with an argument that would only be usable if the conclusion was true.

The Mask only covered his eye =/= the amp is negligible. Can you provide any evidence the amp is so negligible that a post training Toshiro is relative to his first invasion self?

Arc is the one who has to prove it's significant as you're the one claiming it's a major contributor to why the captains one shot the Sternritter with their Bankai. What I'm doing is pointing out the lack of evidence for the claim on his part instead of making a claim myself. That's why the burden of proof is on him here.

You missed the whole Kaname point. If proper Hollowfication is stronger than Bankai, than even partial Hollowfication should be a decent amp. I was not saying Toshiro's Hollowfication is an above Bankai level amp.

Null point. Kaname's statement doesn't mean Hollowfication is in general greater than Bankai as every Bankai differs and Tosen doesn't know every Bankai and is therefore not a credible source for such a broad statement. His own Hollowfication is a bigger boost than his own Bankai because his Bankai is based on restricting senses and doesn't seem to give him much of an amp in terms of raw power.
Saying Toshiro's small ice covering ice should be a "decent amp" is nothing but an assumption as it can't be scaled to any perticular portion of a Hollowfication's amp and therefore holds no objective value. Urahara's intention with the hollow pills was mainly to recover the stolen Bankai and he doesn't mention a relevant amp to the captains at all when listing the benefits of the hollow pills.

Finally you say again I need to prove the amp, that's not how debating works. First, if you read my original posts, I posted multiple scans of how a couple days of training can drastically amp oneself, along with physical training increasing your spiritual powers in general.

I debunked that at the beginning of this post and the burden of proof is on you as the one arguing with complete unknowns.

don't want to repost the scans but I will. Second, you/damage made the claim that the Ritter losing is an anti-feat, THUS the burden of proof by definition is on you to prove the training and hollow amps are so low that second invasion Captains ~ first invasion Captains.

We consider it an anti-feat because that's what it ends up being when looking at it from an objective standpoint which doesn't consider unquantifiable amps as definitively relevant in terms of what boost it gave. We point out why your points hold no objective value instead of making headcanon claims ourselves (And because I know you will misinterpret this the wrong way, the headcanon claims I'm referring to are saying the amps were relevant and made a substantial difference, I'm not disputing the existence of the amps themselves).

I don't need to re-prove something that's already accepted atm. You need to disprove the accepted scaling. I need to debunk your points and defend the current scaling.

Your stance being the same as the accepted values (for now) on the profiles doesn't entitle you to immunity from the burden of proof like you seem to think for whatever reason. We are discussing this because the accepted scaling relies on assumptions instead of definitive arguments that aren't unqantifiable unknowns. Your stance assumes the amps are relevant just because they exist, but to quote you "that's not how debating works".




Now for a compilation of Arc's repeated argument about Ichigo's training being usable to quantify the captain's training (which I've debunked at the beginning of this post):

"unquantifiable"

We don't know how much 4 days of training can amp someone
We actually do, let me explain. Prior to Bankai training, Ichigo was incapable of fighting Byakuya and winning as per Yoruichi. We see that Shikai Ichigo is more relative to a base Byakuya, as he blocks a strike with mid-high difficulty, noted by his sweating. However, after the 2-3 days of training, Ichigo is now capable of wounding Byakuya and even takes an attack from Bankai Byakuya with just his Shikai without showing signs of slowing down. Not claiming the 2-3 day training amped Shikai Ichigo from base Byakuya to Bankai Byakuya level, but it was clearly a noticeable amp nonetheless.

Now, as I cited above, the Captains trained for longer than Ichigo did. So, to claim the amp the post-training Captains received is negligible is false, we clearly see that a couple days of serious training can take you from levels where you'd face certain death against a character to being able to fight said character as equals. Therefore, the 4 days that the Captains were allowed to train is enough time to amp them, and in combination with my previous section, it is enough of an amp where you cannot assert that their Bankai are equal to their pre-training Bankai in power.

sigh... can we cut the "we dont know how much half a week of training can amp you" bullshit. We do know, look at these scans, read my words. You repeating "amps are unquantifiable" does not prove second invasion Captains ~ first invasion Captains

"unknown"

We don't know how much 4 days of training can amp someone
We actually do, let me explain. Prior to Bankai training, Ichigo was incapable of fighting Byakuya and winning as per Yoruichi. We see that Shikai Ichigo is more relative to a base Byakuya, as he blocks a strike with mid-high difficulty, noted by his sweating. However, after the 2-3 days of training, Ichigo is now capable of wounding Byakuya and even takes an attack from Bankai Byakuya with just his Shikai without showing signs of slowing down. Not claiming the 2-3 day training amped Shikai Ichigo from base Byakuya to Bankai Byakuya level, but it was clearly a noticeable amp nonetheless.

Now, as I cited above, the Captains trained for longer than Ichigo did. So, to claim the amp the post-training Captains received is negligible is false, we clearly see that a couple days of serious training can take you from levels where you'd face certain death against a character to being able to fight said character as equals. Therefore, the 4 days that the Captains were allowed to train is enough time to amp them, and in combination with my previous section, it is enough of an amp where you cannot assert that their Bankai are equal to their pre-training Bankai in power.

In b4, "Arc stop spamming this or I'll report you". Pot and Kettle. Y'all keep repeating the amps are unquantifiable, here it is ^^^^^^ quantified.

"training is unquantifiable"

We don't know how much 4 days of training can amp someone
We actually do, let me explain. Prior to Bankai training, Ichigo was incapable of fighting Byakuya and winning as per Yoruichi. We see that Shikai Ichigo is more relative to a base Byakuya, as he blocks a strike with mid-high difficulty, noted by his sweating. However, after the 2-3 days of training, Ichigo is now capable of wounding Byakuya and even takes an attack from Bankai Byakuya with just his Shikai without showing signs of slowing down. Not claiming the 2-3 day training amped Shikai Ichigo from base Byakuya to Bankai Byakuya level, but it was clearly a noticeable amp nonetheless.

Now, as I cited above, the Captains trained for longer than Ichigo did. So, to claim the amp the post-training Captains received is negligible is false, we clearly see that a couple days of serious training can take you from levels where you'd face certain death against a character to being able to fight said character as equals. Therefore, the 4 days that the Captains were allowed to train is enough time to amp them, and in combination with my previous section, it is enough of an amp where you cannot assert that their Bankai are equal to their pre-training Bankai in power.

In case you can't tell, and by no offense am I meaning by this, I'm starting to wonder if you didn't read this ^^^^ or maybe just missed it. I proved that an a couple days of training takes you from barely base Captain level to nearly relative to Bankai Captain level in base. How is that unquantifiable?

"Completely unknown"

Look above I'll spare reposting it.

"only arguing unknowns"

Look above, but twice. In fact here's my original argument: https://vsbattles.com/threads/sternritter-profiles-revision-bleach.117302/post-3817636

"Unknown"

bruh... I've linked the scan enough, it's not unknown, and you saying it is doesn't prove it is, I've provided scans to show how training amps you, and then the fights are proof of such.

I debunked all of these repeated arguments at the beginning of this post.

Also I find it weird that Arc says he thought I missed that point

In case you can't tell, and by no offense am I meaning by this, I'm starting to wonder if you didn't read this ^^^^ or maybe just missed it. I proved that an a couple days of training takes you from barely base Captain level to nearly relative to Bankai Captain level in base. How is that unquantifiable?

despite me responding to it in my previous rebuttal with this:
"which isn't entirely valid for comparison with the TYBW captains, as Ichigo during that stage of the SS arc had only recently acquired his powers and was still rapidly developing and getting used to using them. Meanwhile, the captains have been captains and have had their powers for many decades or even centuries."
and Arc then responding to that with this

Headcanon, no where is that stated or indicated to ever be the case. Unless you can prove that, my point still stands.

yet he says he thinks I missed his original point...pretty strange.

By the way, to just quickly respond to this:

Headcanon, no where is that stated or indicated to ever be the case. Unless you can prove that, my point still stands.

It's not headcanon and I pointed out multiple reasons why at the beginning of this post.



Regarding some other things Arc said in relation to the anti-feats:

Ok so two amps + 1 nerf and you still think they aren't significant?

There is no definitive way to prove they are significant and there are things which contest this such as the fact that Urahara's intention with the hollow pills was mainly to recover the stolen Bankai and he doesn't mention a relevant amp to the captains at all when listing the benefits of the hollow pills. It doesn't matter if they are two amps and one nerf. Even if they were three amps and two nerfs, it still wouldn't mean they're definitively significant or the reason why the Sternritter were one shot.

Have you read the fights? After training the Captains beat the Ritter... there's the proof.

Begging the question yet again...

You/damage's point was that the 2nd invasion Captains ~ 1st invasion Captains, thus the Ritter losing are anti-feats to them being relative to the 1st invasion Captains. However, me proving the 2nd invasion Captains > 1st invasion Captains debunks 2nd invasion Captains ~ 1st invasion Captains, which means there are no anti-feats.

Me and Damage have the stance that the captains pre and post training aren't different in power to the point where their post-training selves can one shot their pre-training selves because there's no objective way to prove that. Arc tried by making a false analogy to Ichigo's training in the SS arc but that has been debunked so he has nothing left to argue with other than assumptions.



Regarding Arc's next points:

No Renji says "we" not "I", so yes he is talking in general.

Renji's statement was spitballing caused by frustration and him saying "we"refers to him and Byakuya. It doesn't mean he's talking about any captain needing Bankai to fight any Sternritter as that is just objectively false.

• Kenpachi beat three Sternritter with no Shikai or Bankai.
• Kyoraku fought evenly with and at one point dealt a significant blow on Robert without Bankai and the only two times when Robert dealt any damage were when he caught Shunsui off-guard by activating his Vollständig and when Shunsui dropped his guard because Yamamoto died.
• Yamamoto repelled Bazz-B, As Nodt and NaNaNa without using his Bankai.

Byakuya needing to use Bankai to fight As Nodt doesn't mean base As Nodt = Bankai Byakuya as Renji could have been talking about As Nodt's strong Blut Vene which Renji was unable to pierce and was making a big deal about earlier and which Byakuya could pierce but not cause significant enough damage to incapacitate or kill As Nodt.

The standard assumption would be above average captain level, not "captain+ means stronger than weakest captains", average captains being Toshiro, Soi Fon, Sajin... It would still be consistent to scale them to Bankai by your point too, so you didn't debunk this at all.

Your assumption ≠ The standard assumption. Hisagi is stated to be a captain level Shinigami post-timeskip in the BotRoT novel and is additionally supported by him doing this back in the FKKT arc. And since Hisagi didn't have Bankai during the TYBW arc, it proves that Bankai isn't required to be considered captain level, meaning that at least he was used as the minimum for how strong Sternritter are when it comes to Akon's statement. Since he was talking about all Sternritter that were detected to participate in the first invasion of Seireitei and since they vary in terms of strength, he meant that all of them are at least captain level (Large Island level) while some of them are greater.

Not wanting to give them a lot of Hollow reiatsu =/= not wanting to amp them in a meaningful way.

Actually that's exactly what it means, as the amount of Hollow reiatsu it gives them is directly proportional to how much of an amp they receive, which you agree to based on how you worded this. Since Urahara only gave them a tiny bit of hollow reiatsu, then they only got a tiny boost in power.

No all BG9 says is "Soi Fon is strong enough in base to be equal to her Bankai currently", never does BG9 say "I thought you'd be stronger than me and that I'd have to use your Bankai", not the case, this is your headcanon.

This is the statement:

Firstly, he didn't say her new base is equal to her Bankai. He literally just didn't. You assuming that is the baseless headcanon here.
Secondly, he specifically says he wouldn't need her Bankai. If his base and her Bankai were comparable, he would just say he doesn't need to go all out. But no, that's not what he says. He specifically refers to the Bankai instead of his individual abilities. And he uses the word need. If his base and the Bankai were comparable, why would it matter what he uses to fight Soifon? It wouldn't and he wouldn't refer to her Bankai specifically. Because of that, it's clear that BG9 though his personal capabilities were enough to fight her because she wasn't strong enough for him to need (as he himself says) to use her Bankai.

Also, there's something I find weird about this particular response by Arc
earlier in the thread (specifically here) where he claims this:

Damage3245 said:
One more point regarding the strength of the Quincy in relation to the stolen Bankai. BG9 implies that the Bankai he stole would be a power-up for him. Reading this page, he seems to be implying that Soi-Fon without her Bankai is at a level that he can handle just fine but if she was more powerful than he would need to resort to using her Bankai.

This is more so BG9 just saying the fruits of her training weren’t enough to match her Bankai.

Yet now he claims this:

No all BG9 says is "Soi Fon is strong enough in base to be equal to her Bankai currently", never does BG9 say "I thought you'd be stronger than me and that I'd have to use your Bankai", not the case, this is your headcanon.

Hmmm....interesting. Arc does a full 180 turn and completely changes his stance on this once the debate about it isn't going in his favor. That's a sign that he knows he's losing the debate, at least when it comes to BG9's statement.

Tsotso said:
A Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai completely devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai, as the Sternritter would be able to easily overpower the Bankai captain by just going Vollständig.
There is no tactical advantage in stealing Bankai if the Sternritter must be equal to it in base.

Someone might try to claim the medallions with their ability to steal Bankai were made because Yhwach wants his enemies to feel even more powerless while they're being killed by the Sternritter.
However, that goes against Yhwach's character and is therefore not a valid argument.

-_-

A yes I'm equal to a Bankai Captain, meaning that the fight could go either way, stealing their Bankai would be totally useless, not like nerfing the Captains has any benefits or anything. Ofc I'm being sarcastic, if you cannot see the benefit of weakening your opponent, I'll explain it to you.

Arc has completely misinterpreted my point. And for whatever reason, he's forgotten that Vollständig exists and doesn't consider what role it plays in my point. What I pointed out was that stealing a Bankai doesn't provide an advantage against a captain that simply going Vollständig doesn't provide as well. Also, stealing a Bankai is a lower power boost for the Sternritter than going Vollständig and only gives an advantage against the one particular captain whose Bankai it steals. If a Sternritter steals a Bankai during the first invasion and during the second invasion stmbles upon another captain who's stronger than the first, then we are looking at a situation where stealing a Bankai becomes a tactical disadvantage as the Sternritter is now confined to wielding a weaker Bankai than the one used by the second captain and the Sternritter cannot go Vollständig to close the power gap because the Bankai is in the way. If the base Sternritter is equal to the first captain's Bankai, then it would have been better and more tactically sound to just go Vollständig, defeat the first captain, and be able to fight the stronger captain with the Vollständig available without the first captain's Bankai getting in the way and preventing the Sternritter from utilizing their full power.

Sternritter are capable of handling/controlling power on a higher level than their base due to how their Vollständig works

A Vollständig is stated to be an upgraded version of Letz Stil as it doesn't have the drawbacks of the Quincy losing their power when they use it.

Unlike Bankai and Resurrección, Vollständig doesn't release the full version of a Quincy's innate power but instead grants them power absorbed from an outside source (Reishi in the environment) just like using a Medallion (Bankai from a captain). Since the Vollständig power boost doesn't come from the Sternritter themselves yet they can control it, it's fair to say they would be able to control a Bankai stronger than them as long as its power falls within the range between a Sternritter's base and their Vollständig, which is the limit to how much Reishi they can absorb i.e. how much power they can control.
Sternritter who have stolen a Bankai have been stated to be unable to go Vollständig, which supports the idea that their power handling/controlling limit is reached.
This is also why Yhwach can be comparable to Yama's Bankai while the Sternritter in base aren't comparable to the Bankai they stole. It's because Yhwach doesn't use a Vollständig, meaning his base is already at his max power in terms of how much Reishi he can manipulate and therefore represents how much power he can control, while with the Sternritter it's different.

This is a headcanon argument. I agree Yhwach ~ Bankai Yama without the medallion statement tho. However, according to y'all the medallion makes it so the Ritter don't have to be equal to the Bankai. Which would mean that for this point to work the Ritter would have to be capable of going into either Bankai or Voll, but that's not the case. That being said, never is it stated or implied that the Ritter being unable to use Voll while haven stolen Bankai means they can't scale.

It's not headcanon due to the scans I provided. It's just how the Quincies' powers work. In Vollständig and Letz Stil they absorb power from the environment in the form of Reishi/Spirit Particles and can control it despite not being at that level of power in their base state.
I don't get where you got the "for this point to work the Ritter would have to be capable of going into either Bankai or Voll" thing from. That's not a requirement for this point to work as they can't go Vollständig while possessing Bankai because their power handling limit (which is represented by how much power they can absorb and control in their Vollständig state) is reached by possessing the Bankai. That's not even the core part of my argument so I don't see why you chose to focus on it specifically. As for the Sternritter being unable to use Vollständig when possessing Bankai, the only discernible reason for that is them not being able to handle/control the power gained from Vollständig and Bankai at the same time because having the Bankai puts a strain on their power handling/controlling limit. It might sound weird if you haven't thought about the specifics of this before, but when a Sternritter steals a Bankai, the Bankai stays connected to the Konpaku/Soul of the Shinigami owner while at the same time being now connected to the Sternritter's Konpaku/Soul. This is why Urahara's hollow pills even worked. They are absorbed into the Shinigami's soul, which also means the hollow power transfers to the Zanpakutō spirit and the Sternritter who is now connected to the Zanpakutō spirit after stealing its Bankai/Final Release which materializes/summons the Zanpakutō spirit into the physical world.

Tsotso said:
Urahara, the smartest person in Soul Society's history, wouldn't want to hollowfy the captains to a relevant degree as in the past that has resulted in them initially becoming extremely unstable, which is something we know as a matter of fact.

Enough Hollow reiatsu to become unstable =/= negligible amp

I suppose you meant to say "Enough Hollow reiatsu to not become unstable" but anyways, it is an actual statement which proves that Urahara didn't intend to amp them to the degree of actual Hollowfication, which is further supported by him not even considering the potential amp they'll receive from the tiny hollowfication as relevant enough to even mention it when listing the benefits of the hollow pills.

Tsotso said:
BG9 makes it clear that his base is enough to fight a weak Soifon, but he would have to use her Bankai to fight a strong Soifon. That is a clear dichotomy stated by the Sternritter himself.

No I went over this above

Tsotso said:
Sternritter can control power on a higher level than their base due to how their Vollständig is explained to work.

Doesn't debunk them scaling to Bankai

For the BG9 statement, I went over this above in this post after you went over it above in your post which I then debunk with my post a.k.a this post.
For the Vollständig point, the fact that you didn't deny my point itself but disputed it's relevance instead means you concede to the point, or am I misinterpreting your implication there? Anyways, it does debunk them scaling to Bankai in base because the only thing supporting that was Yhwach's statement of controlling Bankai, the bar for which (for the Sternritter) is determined by their Vollständig due to it being them controlling power higher than their base state.

Tsotso said:
Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai and would not give any tactical advantage that isn't gained by just going Vollständig instead.

Weakening your opponent is an advantage in its own right, this point is now debunked lol

I already went over this above. You didn't take Vollständig into consideration, what role it plays in my point and the comparison between the tactical advantage gained from going Vollständig and stealing Bankai.

TBH it feels like this debate is currently riding on "how significant are the Captains amped between invasions"

So if we wanna focus on that rather than start a massive reply chain (like we did above), and you can bring your scans and evidence that the training amp was negligible and I can bring my scans and evidence for the amp being significant. Then we go from there, narrowing the debate to one point at a time so it stays focused and digestible sounds nice to me.

Nope, the debate doesn't ride entirely on the unqantifiable unknown amps of the captains. There are other points and arguments at play here which you tried to debunk (albeit unsuccessfully for reasons stated above) that support me and Damage's stance that the base Sternrtitter don't scale to the Bankai they stole. I'll list them now to have them in the same place without having to scroll through the post.


Points besides the anti-feats which Arc hasn't been able to successfully refute (mainly to reiterate in one place the same ones from my previous post which haven't been debunked)



Why Urahara wouldn't want to give the captains any sort of significant amp

We have reason to believe that Urahara would avoid trying to give them any kind of significant amp. In past instances of Hollow and Shinigami powers mixing, the results have been quite more noticable than some ice over one eye and Shinigami gaining hollow powers in particular has lead to them becoming very unstable initially, something which Urahara is aware of and isn't stupid enough to risk causing to captains during a conflict such as the second invasion of Seireitei. More Hollow reiatsu infused = higher amp so a tiny bit of hollow reiatsu = a tiny boost in power.


BG9's statement and dichotomy

BG9 strongly implies that using Soifon's Bankai would give him power above his base state.
Arc's counters to this were...contradictory to each other. But anyways, BG9 sets a dichotomy between his base being enough to handle Soifon and him needing to use her Bankai if she was strong enough for him not to be "disappointed". He specifically says he doesn't need to use her Bankai because she's "disappointingly" weak. If his base and her Bankai were comparable, he would just say he doesn't need to go all out. But no, that's not what he says. He specifically refers to the Bankai instead of his individual abilities. And he uses the word need. If his base and the Bankai were comparable, why would it matter what he uses to fight Soifon? It wouldn't and he wouldn't refer to her Bankai specifically. Because of that, it's clear that BG9 though his personal capabilities were enough to fight her because she wasn't strong enough for him to need (as he himself says) to use her Bankai. Since BG9 thought her Bankai would be needed to fight a stronger Soifon and thought his base would be enough to fight a weaker Soifon, it means there's a power difference between him in base and him using her Bankai.



No tactical advantage of stealing Bankai if Arc's stance is correct

A Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai completely devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai, as the Sternritter would be able to easily overpower the Bankai captain by just going Vollständig.
There is no tactical advantage in stealing Bankai if the Sternritter must be equal to it in base.

Stealing a Bankai doesn't provide an advantage against a captain that simply going Vollständig doesn't provide as well. Also, stealing a Bankai is a lower power boost for the Sternritter than going Vollständig and only gives an advantage against the one particular captain whose Bankai it steals. If a Sternritter steals a Bankai during the first invasion and during the second invasion stmbles upon another captain who's stronger than the first, then we are looking at a situation where stealing a Bankai becomes a tactical disadvantage as the Sternritter is now confined to wielding a weaker Bankai than the one used by the second captain and the Sternritter cannot go Vollständig to close the power gap because the Bankai is in the way. If the base Sternritter is equal to the first captain's Bankai, then it would have been better and more tactically sound to just go Vollständig, defeat the first captain, and be able to fight the stronger captain with the Vollständig available without the first captain's Bankai getting in the way and preventing the Sternritter from utilizing their full power.

Someone might try to claim the medallions with their ability to steal Bankai were made because Yhwach wants his enemies to feel even more powerless while they're being killed by the Sternritter.
However, that goes against Yhwach's character and is therefore not a valid argument.


Sternritter are capable of handling/controlling power on a higher level than their base due to how their Vollständig works

A Vollständig is stated to be an upgraded version of Letz Stil as it doesn't have the drawbacks of the Quincy losing their power when they use it.

Unlike Bankai and Resurrección, Vollständig doesn't release the full version of a Quincy's innate power but instead grants them power absorbed from an outside source (Reishi in the environment) just like using a Medallion (Bankai from a captain). Since the Vollständig power boost doesn't come from the Sternritter themselves yet they can control it, it's fair to say they would be able to control a Bankai stronger than them as long as its power falls within the range between a Sternritter's base and their Vollständig, which is the limit to how much Reishi they can absorb i.e. how much power they can control.
Sternritter who have stolen a Bankai have been stated to be unable to go Vollständig, which supports the idea that their power handling/controlling limit is reached.
This is also why Yhwach can be comparable to Yama's Bankai while the Sternritter in base aren't comparable to the Bankai they stole. It's because Yhwach doesn't use a Vollständig, meaning his base is already at his max power in terms of how much Reishi he can manipulate and therefore represents how much power he can control, while with the Sternritter it's different.

The only discernible reason for the Sternritter being unable to use Vollständig when possessing Bankai is them not being able to handle/control the power gained from Vollständig and Bankai at the same time because having the Bankai puts a strain on their power handling/controlling limit. When a Sternritter steals a Bankai, the Bankai stays connected to the Konpaku/Soul of the Shinigami owner while at the same time being now connected to the Sternritter's Konpaku/Soul. This is why Urahara's hollow pills even worked. They are absorbed into the Shinigami's soul, which also means the hollow power transfers to the Zanpakutō spirit and the Sternritter who is now connected to the Zanpakutō spirit after stealing its Bankai/Final Release which materializes/summons the Zanpakutō spirit into the physical world. That is why the Bankai possessing Sternritter's soul being connected to the Zanpakutō spirit occupies some of their power handling/controlling limit, as for the Quincy to use their powers, they have to absorb Reishi/Spirit Particles and then coat them in their own spirit power which comes from the Konpaku/Soul, which would be more limited if their soul was occupied with possessing a Bankai connected to it.



In Summation (once again to reiterate):


The arguments for Arc's stance (Sternritter in base are comparable to Bankai) remain the same as his Ichigo and captains training comparison was debunked at the beginning of this thread. Therefore, his stance is still left with nothing but claims that are all unquantifiable unknowns:

• The Shinigami got stronger to a completely unknown degree due to their training and that could be enough to make a relevant difference.
• The Shinigami's Bankai were temporarily partially hollowfied by a tiny bit of hollow reiatsu and amped to a completely unknown degree and that could be enough to make a relevant difference.
• The Sternritter were weakened to a completely unknown degree by the hollow energy from Urahara's pill and that could be enough to make a relevant difference.

The arguments for the opposing stance besides the anti-feats (Sternritter in base are not comparable to Bankai but likely are comparable in Vollständig) are all more definitive and Arc's attempts to debunk them were short, unsuccessful and in the case of BG9's statement - even contradictory:

• Urahara, the smartest person in Soul Society's history, wouldn't want to hollowfy the captains to a relevant degree as in the past that has resulted in them initially becoming extremely unstable, which is something we know as a matter of fact. This sheds doubt on the notion that the unquantifiable tiny hollow reiatsu amp gave the captains a significant boost. Urahara also didn't mention anything about the captains receiving a relevant amp when he listed the benefits of the hollow pills.
• BG9 makes it clear that his base is enough to fight a weak Soifon, but he would have to use her Bankai to fight a strong Soifon. That is a clear dichotomy stated by the Sternritter himself. He specifically uses the word "need" in reference to specifically Soifon's Bankai. If he was comparable to the Bankai in base, he wouldn't refer specifically to it but would instead say he simply doesn't need to go all out.
• Sternritter can control power on a higher level than their base due to how their Vollständig is explained to work.
• Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai and would not give any tactical advantage that isn't gained by just going Vollständig instead. In fact, it could give them a tactical disadvantage since their Vollständig is inaccessible while they are in the possession of a Bankai.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll get back at ya later

 

[Loyd]

i appreciate the effort/amount of words you put in, thrs some stuff that can be nitpicked but i generally agree with the premise.

 

[SilentBob34]

Ngl when I say I’ve never seen such a long debate on something that’s never been argued before lol

 

[Cyberblader90]

Holy

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Tell me about it I gotta respond to it lol

 

[YukaSama4]

My respect for the TsoTso guy

 

[YukaSama4]

Tell me about it I gotta respond to it lol

Tso vs Tsé

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I suddenly understand why staff loathe reading my docs but gotta do what ya gotta do

 

[Loyd]

Yep same reaction when i first opened the bleach cosmos doc

 

[YukaSama4]

but gotta do what ya gotta do

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Fear not I will meticulously respond to every point, as anything else would disrespect the work Tso put in.

 

[Loyd]

thank goodness i feared it'd be some form of mental gymnastics or nitpcking points that would stall the thread forever on

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Before I do respond tho, a question for damage:

How opposed would you be to this compromise:

Stolen Bankai Ritter scale as "At least [whoever they fought], possibly [Bankai they stole]" and Yhwach keeps his scaling but we change his justification up a bit.

 

[SilentBob34]

Before I do respond tho, a question for damage:

How opposed would you be to this compromise:

Stolen Bankai Ritter scale as "At least [whoever they fought], possibly [Bankai they stole]" and Yhwach keeps his scaling but we change his justification up a bit.

I’m all for that as long as we can get past this point lol

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Before I do respond tho, a question for damage:

How opposed would you be to this compromise:

Stolen Bankai Ritter scale as "At least [whoever they fought], possibly [Bankai they stole]" and Yhwach keeps his scaling but we change his justification up a bit.

Bump

#thisthreadis2weeksoldandstillgoingstrong not that anything is wrong with that

 

[Damage3245]

If Yhwach has a different justification for his current rating, then that's fine.

I'm fine with the Sternritter being "At least" whoever they're directly scaling to if they're shown to be superior.

But I don't think they should have a "Possibly" for the Bankai stats.

They should be "At least X, Y with stolen Bankai", for example.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If Yhwach has a different justification for his current rating, then that's fine.

I'm fine with the Sternritter being "At least" whoever they're directly scaling to if they're shown to be superior.

But I don't think they should have a "Possibly" for the Bankai stats.

They should be "At least X, Y with stolen Bankai", for example.

Ok but their Vollstandig should scale to the Bankai they stole by your logic that they couldn’t use Voll because Bankai was occupying that power. (Idk where their Voll currently scale)

I’m fine with this.

Yhwach’s justification can be sumn like (Bankai Yamamoto was unable to kill him a thousand years ago, effortlessly one shot base/Shikai Yamamoto, and is capable of fighting with Ichibe, the pinnacle of Shinigami.)? I know I proposed a new justification a while ago but I can’t seem to find it.

Also will you be posting your Elite Ritter proposal today?

 

[Damage3245]

Ok but their Vollstandig should scale to the Bankai they stole by your logic that they couldn’t use Voll because Bankai was occupying that power.

I don't think I remember saying that part.

As for Yhwach, I'll make a re-proposal for him.

I'll start working on the Elite Sternritters today, though can't promise if it will be posted later today.

 

[Tsotso]

My proposals for the Sternritter and Yhwach would be something like this:



Cang Du

Attack Potency: Large Island level (Should at least be at this level [stated by Akon that the Sternritter in the first invasion of Seireitei had comparable to or greater power than a Captain level Shinigami. Cang being one of them]), Small Country level with Daiguren Hyōrinmaru (Despite a stolen Bankai being implied to be less powerful than when its Shinigami owner uses it, it should still be somewhat comparable and Cang has trained with it) | Small Country level (Should be at least comparable to the Bankai he stole as Quincy: Vollständig and Quincy: Letzt Stil accelerate the rate of Reishi absorption to the user's limit, allowing them to make use of their maximum power as a Quincy [stated by Yhwach that you needed to be sufficiently powerful enough to control the stolen Bankai], broke out of Hitsugaya's ice which froze his base state)


BG9

Attack Potency: Large Island level (Should at least be at this level [stated by Akon that the Sternritter in the first invasion of Seireitei had comparable to or greater power than a Captain level Shinigami. BG9 being one of them], fought on par with Suì-Fēng and was able to damage her), Small Country level with Jakuhō Raikōben (Despite a stolen Bankai being implied to be less powerful than when its Shinigami owner uses it, it should still be somewhat comparable) | Small Country level (Should be at least comparable to the Bankai he stole as Quincy: Vollständig and Quincy: Letzt Stil accelerate the rate of Reishi absorption to the user's limit, allowing them to make use of their maximum power as a Quincy [stated by Yhwach that you needed to be sufficiently powerful enough to control the stolen Bankai], activating Quincy: Vollständig allowed him to survive after being hit with Jakuhō Raikōben)

Note: Base Soifon in her Post-Timeskip key would be downgraded to Large Island level as a result of being scaled to base BG9.


Äs Nödt

Attack Potency: At least Large Island level+ (Should at least be at this level [stated by Akon that the Sternritter in the first invasion of Seireitei had comparable to or greater power than a Captain level Shinigami. Äs being one of them]), Small Country level+ with Senbonzakura Kageyoshi (Despite a stolen Bankai being implied to be less powerful than when its Shinigami owner uses it, it should still be somewhat comparable) | Small Country level+ (Should be at least comparable to the Bankai he stole as Quincy: Vollständig and Quincy: Letzt Stil accelerate the rate of Reishi absorption to the user's limit, allowing them to make use of their maximum power as a Quincy [stated by Yhwach that you needed to be sufficiently powerful enough to control the stolen Bankai])

Note: Base Äs Nödt is Island level+ because in order for his Quincy: Vollständig key to be Small Country level+, it would need to be at least 4 Teratons, and since the highest multiplier I can imagine being accepted for Vollständig is 5 times, it would make Äs Nödt's base at least 800 Gigatons which is Large Island level+.


Bambietta Basterbine

I don't think her statistics should be changed considering she's being scaled to Bazz-B instead of Komamura's Bankai.

Attack Potency: Country level (Comparable to Bazz-B, should also be superior to the rest of the female Sternritter) | At least Country level (More powerful than base), The Explode also ignores conventional durability


Yhwach (Base/Pre-Almighty)

Attack Potency: Continent level+ (Far stronger than Gremmy Thoumeaux as he granted him his powers and imprisoned him. He is the only Quincy capable of handling the power of Yamamoto's Bankai and should be comparable to it as Yhwach is most likely always making use of his maximum power as a Quincy due to never using a Quincy: Vollständig to accelerate the rate of his Reishi absorption, capable of fighting Ichibē Hyōsube who Yhwach considered the pinnacle of all Shinigami despite having fought Genryūsai Shigekuni Yamamoto two times, having killed him the second time and possessing his Bankai at the time of the statement about Ichibē)

Note: For those who might wonder about the specifics of when Yhwach's statement was said and when Ichibē possibly negated his medallion, Yhwach's statement about Ichibē is from chapter 607 page 3 while Ichibē first using Ichimonji to ink Yhwach's things and remove their names is from chapter 608 pages 10-11, so Yhwach did have Yamamoto's Bankai when he said that Ichibē stands atop the Soul Reapers.