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Base Yhwach being >>>>> Shikai Yama heavily supports Yhwach ~ Bankai Yama. The lowest I'd settle for is a possibly rating for the stolen Bankai Quincy.
I haven't forgotten this and I'll address it soon.
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Sternritter Profiles Revision [Bleach]
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
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- #202
I think a more accurate rating for Yhwach at least would be:
At least Country level (Defeated Tier Harribal single-handedly after she used her Resurrección. Far stronger than Gremmy Thoumeaux as Yhwach defeated and imprisoned him. Easily defeated Yamamoto by cutting him down after stealing his Bankai), Continent level+ with Yamamoto's Bankai (Indicated that he would be able to control the immense power of Yamamoto's Bankai)
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I’ll let Arc post what he has to say on that. But since this is a sternritter crt is it ok to discuss some other scaling? Like for instance how in the world is Gremmy with 6 clones only High 6B when a meteor with 2 clones was enough to scare the living shit out of Renji and Bazz B who are also High 6B in bankai and vollstandig?
Same with shikai Kenpachi and giant Gerard and those who scale too them. Renji did absolutely nothing in that fight yet he’s somehow in the same tier as those 2?
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At best I would put a varies from 6B to 6A. Also your version is implying that Yhwach is weaker than vollstandig Bazz B which I don’t see how that’s possible
also in the novels wasn’t it heavily implied Gremmy is the strongest sternritter and everyone was scared to even look his direction? That’s another reason why he shouldn’t be 6B if other sternritter have forms stronger than him. You’re fine with saying Yhwach is stronger than Gremmy yet at the same time are ok with other sternritter having higher tiers than Yhwach even those those 2 are the strongest. You’re confusing me a lot here man
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- #205
Perhaps the issue lies in scaling Bazz-B to be equal to the full power of Yama.
Does Yhwach have a statement saying he is stronger than every Quincy while they're using their Vollstandig?
And we're going through the topics in order. So Gremmy is not the primary focus on this CRT at the moment.
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What? Dude vollstandig Bazz B scales to rg bankai Renji via fighting him. Has nothing to do with Yamamoto.. and you’re dodging my question on how vollstandig Bazz B is somehow stronger than a Quincy literally stated to be the strongest and their leader who personally imprisoned said strongest Quincy
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- #207
I'm not dodging anything, tone it down a bit.
If Yhwach scales to a higher value through a different scaling chain, then whatever. That doesn't have anything to do with the main point which is removing the current justification from Yhwach.
If we add something else in its place, then cool.
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I mean, the main point and justification has literally been accepted by everyone since that chapter about it came out.. I think you’re the first person to have a problem with it which doesn’t really surprise me..
your first two topics in this thread were really well done but now you’re starting to interpret everything how you see it instead of using common sense
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- #209
Something can be accepted for years and still be wrong.
I could say the same thing about the people opposing it.
People are interpreting Yhwach's statement to mean "The only reason I can control your Bankai is because I am equal in power to your Bankai."
I don't buy that assumption.
So I'm proposing something that I find to be more reasonable.
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Like, Yhwach can steal and use Yamamoto’s bankai while stating he could only handle the immense power therefore his power is around Yamamoto’s bankai power. No idea why you’re trying to go so in depth and beyond reasoning for it
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But what you’re proposing is more accurate isn’t accurate at all. You asked earlier for a statement that Yhwach is stronger than a quincy’s vollstandig but the burden of proof is on you to confirm that he isn’t stronger than a Quincy’s vollstandig when that’s never implied.
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- #212
We have different understandings of what the meaning of burden of proof is then.
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Aight so I'm going to proceed under the assumption that the Hollowfied Bankai defeating Poisoned Ritter point has been resolved, as damage only brought mention to the Yama point being left unresolved. If you'd like I can drop a scan of every instance that adding Hollow powers to a Shinigami made them stronger to back up my point, but I feel that's excessive and we can just move on.
Yhwach says the following, "It's not that we couldn't steal your Bankai. But who else can control your immense power besides me? That is why I ordered Royd to stand down until I arrived."
First, Yhwach implies that Yama's Bankai couldn't be stolen because no one could handle the power of his Bankai. He's not saying "no one is comparable to your base/Shikai form, hence they can't steal your Bankai", he is flat out saying that because no one compares to Yama's Bankai, no one can steal it.
Second, the immense power in question is directly referring to Yama's Bankai. Yhwach in base is capable of control Yama's Bankai. But can't base Yama control his Bankai!? No not at all, the Zanpakuto work by sealing one's power within a blade, meaning Yama can only handle his Bankai while in Bankai.
To give some examples of this, Kenny can only handle his Bankai for a short time while in Bankai, and Ichigo's Bankai started cracking his bones while in Bankai. The point is being able to perform Bankai is not the same as being able to control Bankai. Because Kenpachi and Ichigo weren't durable enough they couldn't control their own Bankai, yet Yhwach can control Yama's Bankai perfectly fine.
To further support Yhwach scaling to Bankai Yama, he casually cuts Yama in half. When you couple this fact that Yhwach is hyper casually above Shikai Yama with his "I can control your Bankai's immense power" statement, it becomes rather clear that at the very least, Yhwach is comparable to Bankai Yama.
To bring up their original fight 1000 years ago, Yamamoto's Bankai failed to kill Yhwach. But Yama's Bankai was weaker back then! Lucky for us the statements made about Yama's Bankai would be applicable to his past Bankai, as that is the only thing characters like Unohana have to go off of. Yama himself says and proves that his Bankai has evolved since back then.
Now let's look at things from a lore and author intent perspective. It isn't until after Yama dies that it is stated that the Royal Guard will show up. This would mean that Squad Zero does not see a reason to arrive on battle unless the threat is enough where even Yama cannot handle it. Implying that narratively Squad Zero are meant for threats greater than Yamamoto.
To invoke Occam's Razor, the simplest interpretation of "I can control your immense power" would be that "I" in this case scales to the "immense power".
The Hollowfied Bankai vs Poisoned Ritter support the notion that the captains needed power beyond a Bankai to win, as they required to absorb Hollow power while simultaneously weakening the Ritter's spiritual powers. Which would then back up the fact that the Ritter who stole the Bankai are relative to said Bankai, because they were only ever beaten when nerfed and facing amped Bankai.
Yhwach says the following, "It's not that we couldn't steal your Bankai. But who else can control your immense power besides me? That is why I ordered Royd to stand down until I arrived."
First, Yhwach implies that Yama's Bankai couldn't be stolen because no one could handle the power of his Bankai. He's not saying "no one is comparable to your base/Shikai form, hence they can't steal your Bankai", he is flat out saying that because no one compares to Yama's Bankai, no one can steal it.
Second, the immense power in question is directly referring to Yama's Bankai. Yhwach in base is capable of control Yama's Bankai. But can't base Yama control his Bankai!? No not at all, the Zanpakuto work by sealing one's power within a blade, meaning Yama can only handle his Bankai while in Bankai.
To give some examples of this, Kenny can only handle his Bankai for a short time while in Bankai, and Ichigo's Bankai started cracking his bones while in Bankai. The point is being able to perform Bankai is not the same as being able to control Bankai. Because Kenpachi and Ichigo weren't durable enough they couldn't control their own Bankai, yet Yhwach can control Yama's Bankai perfectly fine.
To further support Yhwach scaling to Bankai Yama, he casually cuts Yama in half. When you couple this fact that Yhwach is hyper casually above Shikai Yama with his "I can control your Bankai's immense power" statement, it becomes rather clear that at the very least, Yhwach is comparable to Bankai Yama.
To bring up their original fight 1000 years ago, Yamamoto's Bankai failed to kill Yhwach. But Yama's Bankai was weaker back then! Lucky for us the statements made about Yama's Bankai would be applicable to his past Bankai, as that is the only thing characters like Unohana have to go off of. Yama himself says and proves that his Bankai has evolved since back then.
Now let's look at things from a lore and author intent perspective. It isn't until after Yama dies that it is stated that the Royal Guard will show up. This would mean that Squad Zero does not see a reason to arrive on battle unless the threat is enough where even Yama cannot handle it. Implying that narratively Squad Zero are meant for threats greater than Yamamoto.
To invoke Occam's Razor, the simplest interpretation of "I can control your immense power" would be that "I" in this case scales to the "immense power".
The Hollowfied Bankai vs Poisoned Ritter support the notion that the captains needed power beyond a Bankai to win, as they required to absorb Hollow power while simultaneously weakening the Ritter's spiritual powers. Which would then back up the fact that the Ritter who stole the Bankai are relative to said Bankai, because they were only ever beaten when nerfed and facing amped Bankai.
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I guess so? On one hand, we have base Yhwach stealing and stating only he could handle Yamamoto’s immense power and and imprisoning a Quincy that everyone was scared shitless from him even though they have a vollstandig. On the other hand, you’re asking to prove he’s stronger than vollstandig quincies when the fact that he is stronger than Gremmy is pretty much stating he’s stronger than any Quincy even if they use vollstandig. So yeah burden of proof is on you to prove that Yhwach isn’t
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- #216
He's not saying "I am comparable to your Bankai, which is why I can control your Bankai" either.
All he says is that he doesn't believe anyone else can control it.
Yes, Yama in Bankai can control Yhwach's Bankai.
Which is why I believe that Yhwach in Bankai can also control Yhwach's Bankai.
I don't believe that is proof that Yhwach in base can scales to Yama's Bankai.
Scaling Yhwach above Shikai Yama still doesn't mean scaling him to Yama's Bankai.
100% disagree.
Since when does controlling a power of a certain level mean you have to be capable of making attacks that powerful yourself?
There is no evidence that their attacks against the Sternritter were amped. Urahara says that they only recieve a tiny amount of Hollow power, and they were Hollowfied for a split-second.
You're relying on the assumption that they must have been amped, and backing up your assumption with them harming the Sternritters who you assume couldn't have been harmed unless the attacks were amped. It's a circle of assumptions.
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- #217
Dude, that's a separate topic you're talking about altogether.
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Someone sum up the arguments
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If I can control and manipulate 100 joules of energy, I scale to 100 joules of energy, it's rather simple.
If you can prove that Hollowfying isn't an amp I'll concede. It is flat out stated they are absorbing some Hollow powers. And you're cherry picking my argument, because it is also stated that the Quincy spiritual powers will weaken. I don't even need the Hollow argument, because Hollow reiatsu weakens Quincies.
Hurr durr I never said that, I said it is support and that in combination with his statement of being capable of controlling Yama's immense power, it makes sense.
We don't need to be spoon fed to scale.
This is poorly worded please elaborate.
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- #220
Here is my original argument.
I believe that there are sufficient antifeats to go against the currently accepted interpretation of Yhwach's statement.
Yhwach being able to take possession of Yama's Bankai and control it should only mean that Yhwach scales when he if using Yama's Bankai.
Beyond that we'd need more evidence that his ordinary Attack Potency is equal to Yama's Attack Potency. Simply controlling a stolen Bankai doesn't prove what Yhwach is capable of by himself.
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There are no anti-feats I've debunked the entirety of the Hollowfied Bankai vs nerfed Ritter means Bankai > Ritter argument of yours.
If you can control an amount of energy you'd scale to it.
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That's simply not true. Just because a character can manipulate X amount of energy doesn't necessarily mean they can create X amount of energy themselves.
Especially if the only statement of them manipulating X amount of energy refers to them controlling a power that they stole from somebody else.
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Yeah don’t even bother responding to that lol. We can talk about that after the bankai stealing thing is settled. You already are responding to like 3 people so imma back off for now
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You don't need to create it to scale. I can shoulder press 135 pounds but that doesn't mean I can create the bar and plates.
A sword doesn't "create energy" all it means is Yhwach is capable of tussling around with Bankai Yama levels of power.
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To neg this argument one last time. It was stated multiple times that the Captains who lost their Bankai trained afterwards. Toshiro doing Kendo, Soifon doing one armed push ups, etc.
So you'd have post-training Captains with partially Hollowfied Bankai defeating weakened Sternritter.
Anti-feats? there are none.
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I have a question.
The statement says that only Yhwach can control Yamamoto's bankai. This can mean a few things to me.
1. Yhwach can control it but no other Quincy there can, making Yhwach > Every other Quincy (which is accepted).
2. Yhwach can control the amount of power that Yamamoto can.
The issue that should be tackled is if Yhwach can control it to the same extent that Yamamoto can.
Someone can be 600 Gigatons with a 400 Gigaton power using it on 10 Gigaton characters. Someone with 500 Gigatons can come and use the 400 Gigaton power, but we don't know if they can use it to the same extent as the one who was at 600 Gigatons.
2 questions from me. One for the one pushing the point, and one for the one opposing the point.
For the one w/ Yhwach ≥ Bankai Yamamoto
For the one w/ Yhwach is not ≥ Bankai Yamamoto
The statement says that only Yhwach can control Yamamoto's bankai. This can mean a few things to me.
1. Yhwach can control it but no other Quincy there can, making Yhwach > Every other Quincy (which is accepted).
2. Yhwach can control the amount of power that Yamamoto can.
The issue that should be tackled is if Yhwach can control it to the same extent that Yamamoto can.
Someone can be 600 Gigatons with a 400 Gigaton power using it on 10 Gigaton characters. Someone with 500 Gigatons can come and use the 400 Gigaton power, but we don't know if they can use it to the same extent as the one who was at 600 Gigatons.
2 questions from me. One for the one pushing the point, and one for the one opposing the point.
For the one w/ Yhwach ≥ Bankai Yamamoto
What says Yhwach can control it to the extent of Yamamoto?
Are there any feats, portrayals, or hints of the character that shows this?
Are there any feats, portrayals, or hints of the character that shows this?
For the one w/ Yhwach is not ≥ Bankai Yamamoto
What says Yhwach can not control it to the extent of Yamamoto?
Are there any feats, portrayals, or hints of the character that shows this?
Are there any feats, portrayals, or hints of the character that shows this?
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Yhwach is able to fend off attacks from Ichibe. Ichibe is stated to be the pinnacle of Shinigami. Couple that with Squad Zero > Gotei 13 and it is entirely likely that Ichibe > Yama.
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- #228
There is a lack of antifeats in this respect due to the fact that Yhwach, for whatever reason Kubo ordained, did not use Yamamoto's ability once ever since he stole it.
He alluded to the ability of Yamamoto's Bankai by suggesting that he could raise the dead as a taunt to Yamamoto but this is obviously not an Attack Potency ability.
I'd like to note that we don't know exactly what Yhwach means by the others being unable to control the Bankai or what would happen to them if they attempted it. Would they lack the precision to control it? Would their bodies not be able to handle it? Yhwach isn't clear. Anything we assume on that would be head canon. But for all we know they'd be able to use attacks of Yama's Bankai's level but lose control of it.
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As Nodt being damaged by Byakuya's Shikai is an anti-feat.
I know you believe that means they can still be relative to each other.
But As Nodt, while augmenting his durability, was injured by the Attack Potency of what should be a weaker Byakuya.
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I understand what damage means, but his argument is a bit flawed compared to arc's from what I'm seeing. I'm agreeing with Arc.
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It's not a belief it's a matter of fact, insert any relative anime fight here.
We don't rate Byakuya's Bankai as an AP increase, it only increases the petals and adds some techniques.
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- #233
What's the flaw you're referring to?
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Byakuya bankai is not treated as stats amps to him, just increasing the number of petals
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This is backed up by the fact that Squad Zero is stated to be > the entire 13 Court Guards I'm assuming. So I can agree with this.
The issue is this. 2 part question.
1. How do we know this contains AP? We know he's extremely skilled in Hado, given that he can shoot attacks w/out chants. He's an actually good swordsman, etc.
2. How do we know that means Base Ichibe > Bankai Yama?
I can understand the lack of antifeat portion. Yhwach barely even uses his dozens of Schrifts, so I can see that.
That's a good point, since that's definitely not an AP related Bankai ability.
It'd be unfair for me to ask you to prove things not elaborated on in the manga, but you do make good points.
I'm rusty on Bleach since I haven't read it in a while, but has any SternRitter been shown to use someone else's bankai and show strain or effort while using it?
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no, all of them can use them no problem, no strain or pain while using it
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- #237
No. We've only really seen Cang Du, As Nodt and Driscol using stolen Bankai.
Cang Du stated that he trained to control Hitsugaya's Bankai after he acquired it.
Yamamoto implies that Driscol's usage of Chojiro's Bankai is weaker than what it would have been if Chojiro himself was using it.
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You kinda answered this in your own question. He's mastered offensive Kido other Shinigami don't know exist. He's also very proud and boisterous of his strength, claiming he only cut Yhwach's power in half so he wouldn't embarrass him in a bout of power.
If Ichibe wasn't at least relative to Bankai Yama, Bankai Yama would reiatsu neg his hax. Which would contradict his statement of standing above all Shinigami.
For Soul Reapers and Arrancars, your hax is relative to your AP. Aizen states so against Soi Fon, and Kenny negs Cien's hax with his reiatsu via being stronger. Which means regardless of how Ichibe wins his AP must be relative to Bankai Yama, else he'd get his hax cancelled.
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Keep in mind chojiro hasn’t used Bankai since the flashback against a weaker Yama. So Yama could just be speculating and he was consumed by rage.
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Might be neutral tbh.
If the point of Ichibe > Bankai Yama is valid (which I'm leaning towards agree), that needs it's own CRT or it's own section here to be discussed
If the point of Ichibe > Bankai Yama is valid (which I'm leaning towards agree), that needs it's own CRT or it's own section here to be discussed
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