Sternritter Profiles Revision [Bleach]

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't think it was arrogant of him to point out that we don't decide things by popularity polls. You shouldn't have committed that fallacy in the first place. Now, I would appreciate if we can go back to discussing what's really relevant instead of doing this.

That’s the issue right, how would we look at something and tell if it has a lot of support? A) it’s a highly liked post B) people voice their support. So yes the fact that my arguments garner more support does indicate they’re performing better. What pisses me off is you guys degrading my arguments by saying “it’s only because you’re pro-Bleach”. It’s the same as me going “you only get anywhere because you’re staff”. I know for sure y’all don’t appreciate that, so practice what you preach, and show some respect.

 

[AKM sama]

That’s the issue right, how would we look at something and tell if it has a lot of support? A) it’s a highly liked post B) people voice their support. So yes the fact that my arguments garner more support does indicate they’re performing better. What pisses me off is you guys degrading my arguments by saying “it’s only because you’re pro-Bleach”.

Fallacy

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

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You got that response because you are the one committing a fallacy. Nobody is throwing any accusations. And you shouldn't either. Now move on.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Fallacy

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

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You got that response because you are the one committing a fallacy. Nobody is throwing any accusations. And you shouldn't either. Now move on.

Ignoring the fact damage quite literally said “your argument does well because it’s pro-Bleach”. I’d appreciate if you stopped derailing the thread if you’ve got nothing to add to the argument.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The issue is not "Do they train to increase their base statistics", it is "Is the change in their base statistics significant enough to be relevant."

As I said, if a characters gets a tiny fraction of an amount stronger - then it's not going to change the scaling significantly.

I’ve shown with scans how 2-3 days of training amped Ichigo from below Byakuya level to at or above Byakuya level. So yes I’ve proven the amp is significant.

And no your point doesn’t work if the Shinigami got stronger. Your entire premise is because the Shinigami Bankai didn’t get stronger it’s an anti-feat, which would be true, but they got stronger so it cannot be an anti-feat.

You're assuming that the training the Captains did would be relative at all to the intense training that Ichigo went under. Ichigo went under a form of training invented by Urahara that reduced the process of awakening his Bankai from years to merely days.

If it takes Captains, typically, a matter of years to get significant results from their training, then I would not assume that four days of their typical training would significantly alter their statistics.

Special exceptions being Byakuya, Kenpachi, Rukia, Renji, etc. for their specific methods of training and the new powers they achieved.

If they train they got stronger. It’s really that simple. They train so we know they got stronger, I’ve demonstrated they’ve trained and got stronger. You cannot die such without blatantly lying. So how do we measure a character’s growth? By their battles. The captains lose to the Ritter -> they train thus getting stronger -> they beat the Ritter. The proof is in the pudding.

This point about the Sternritter being weakened only makes sense if you're already assuming that the Sternritter wouldn't have been one-shot before, so therefore the poisoning must have lowered their durability. BG9's at least solely seems to be about him getting slower / being unable to dodge. Nothing about his durability being lowered drastically.

Cang Du, granted, doesn't appear majorly harmed but he was simply frozen instead of being blown up like BG9 and he specifically has an ability that makes him virtually invulnerable it would seem.

No I don’t have to assert they wouldn’t have been one shot earlier. All I have to do is show that the Sternritter are weakened from their usual selves or the Shinigami are stronger. Then it literally cannot be an anti-feat. And I proved both.

Have you considered that it is possible that Shikai Yama, at full strength, could still be scaling stronger than those individuals that you mentioned; Royd, Bazz-B and Gremmy.

We don’t assume Yama has been holding back. Yama was blood lusted the entire war. Why would he hold back against Royd who he thinks is Yhwach. No damage, unless you have concrete proof, Yama wasn’t holding back.

1) Does being able to control an enormous amount of power mean you are capable of creating an enormous amount of power yourself? I can think of another verses where this isn't the case.

1. In Naruto characters like Obito have an enormous power sealed into them in the form of the Ten-Tails. Obito, after a fashion, is able to control that power at will and can produce attacks far beyond what is capable without that power. Being able to manipulate a power that can produce X amount of energy says nothing about his ability to create it himself.

There are likely more cases out there where characters acquire a new weapon or ability which boosts their power and doesn't mean their original self was just as powerful.

To quote AKM, we don’t care about “what-about-isms”. Different verses handle things differently. Bleach isn’t Naruto and Naruto isn’t Bleach.

2) Yamamoto's full power of his Zanpakuto is sealed away in stages so that he has to go through Shikai and Bankai in order to activate it. Yhwach's Medallion seals away the power of Yamamoto's Bankai so that he can activate it.

Both of them can activate the Bankai through different means, sure. But that doesn't explain why one of the methods requires the base state to be capable of outputting attacks that are equal to the Bankai.

The Medallion doesn’t seal the Bankai. Refer to the Byakuya scan I sent, the Medallion STEAL the Bankai, Zanpakuto SEAL the Bankai.

Yes they are different means this you cannot assert that the Medallion functions the same.

It doesn't have anything to do with how much energy you can emit on your own - because Yamamoto's Bankai clearly increases his AP. So the Banaki would increase Yhwach's AP as well.

Can you prove this? You’ve asserted it several times without proof.

 

[Reio35]

Also soul reapers are stated to get stronger after each fight. So it isn't far fetched to say they did get a massive amp

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I still agree with arc.

 

[Loyd]

this statement i presume?

 

[Ovy7]

That's the one

 

[Damage3245]

I'll address Arc7's points later, but for Reio;

Also soul reapers are stated to get stronger after each fight. So it isn't far fetched to say they didn't get a massive amp

We'd still need to have evidence that any hypothetical "post-battle amp" is high enough to make a difference. We can't just assume every character is significantly more powerful than before after a fight, especially since Urahara notes that it is a risk and may not produce a sufficient upgrade.

 

[Tsotso]

Sigh And some of my arguments have once again been ignored...

Anyways, let's begin.


The problem with Arc's impression of the opposition's main arguments

The following is Arc's introduction:

The two major points that are championing the Ritter not scaling to the stolen Bankai are: A) anti-feats and B) Yhwach's statement and everything associated with it.

No, those two aren't the only arguments. More on this later.


The problems with Arc's points concerning the Sternritter getting one shot

My premise against the anti-feats is as follows: the regained Bankai Captains are stronger than they were when they had their Bankai stolen, thus defeating the Ritter is not an anti-feat for the Ritter, and rather proof that the Captains training bore fruit.

And right off the bat, we are introduced to some basic circular reasoning.

Why did the Sternritter get defeated?
- Because the captains trained and got stronger.

Why would the training give them a relevant boost to power?
- Because they one shot the Sternritter.

But anyways, let's let him explain further.

Let me explain.

After the first invasion (when the Captains lost said Bankai) we see them train. Toshiro practices his kendo, Shuhei is forced to train in attempts to unlock Bankai, Iba is seen repping out push-ups or sumn, Soi-Fon is doing one armed standing push-ups, Sajin spars with his elder (fighting someone is a form of training), and Byakuya trains so hard As Nodt mistakes his Shikai for Bankai. The point being everyone was training after being handed an L during the first invasion, the Shinigami post first invasion are stronger than they were when they were defeated.

First off, nobody denied that the Shinigami trained and nobody claimed that they didn't get any stronger at all.

The issue for Arc's stance is that the training boosts are completely unquantifiable and we have other, more solid reasons for why the Sternritter got one shot and why their base forms shouldn't scale to the Bankai.

Additionally, the Byakuya point is irrelevant, as he didn't just train but also got stronger from bathing in Kirinji's hot spring.

Right before regaining their Bankai, Kisuke explains the mechanism behind the process. Kisuke notes that his method of regaining Bankai has two advantages: 1) it weakens the Quincy and 2) it poisons the Quincy.

The statement used "poisounous to Quincies" as a general term for the deficiencies hollow energy causes in Quincy.
"Weaken their spiritual powers" was one of the deficiencies listed, the others being "decay of their souls" and "ultimately death".
So 1) is one of the effects of 2) which is a more general term. They aren't two different things.

Meaning that by recovering the Bankai through the hollowfication pills, the Ritter will become damaged and be nerfed at the same time.

Not true. As Nodt, Bambietta and BG9 weren't damaged when the Bankai was recovered. Only Cang was, and the only discernible reason for that was because he was the only one out of the four who was using the Bankai at the time.

We directly see this as BG9's functions start to fail and slow down

Which isn't the same as being damaged. It also doesn't mean his durability was nerfed, as that is like saying a human's body becomes less durable is their blood flow slows down.

then while he's weakened and off guard he gets blasted by Soi-Fon's Bankai.

He wasn't off guard. He realized that the Bankai had returned to her and saw she was about to shoot him with its missile.

Same with Cang Du, he gets blindsided by the Hollow reiatsu, Toshiro's Bankai begins to Hollowfy, and he freezes Cang Du.

Toshiro's Bankai beginning to hollowfy is not actual full hollowfication and is unquantifiable.
Cang was only caught off guard by the initial hollow reiatsu damaging him. After that, he continued fighting Toshiro while fully on guard yet he was still frozen without being able to do anything about it.

The point being that the Quincy that lost were caught off guard, poisoned, and were nerfed by Kisuke's ploy.

For reasons I already pointed out, Cang and BG9 weren't off-guard, they just couldn't defend themselves in any way and them being weakened is still unquantifiable and not the most definitive reason for why they lost.


The problems with Arc's points regarding the minor, partial, temporary hollowfication of the Bankai

Finally, regarding the temporary Hollowfication of Bankai and why it is a boost, and how it may be more of a boost than one thinks.

Nobody denied the temporary partial hollowfication being an amp. It's just unquantifiable and very minor going off visuals. Therefore, it's not fair to just assume it gave them a relevant amp. We know it gave them an amp, but there's nothing which can be used to prove it was an amp high enough to make a real difference.

Kaname refers to Hollowfication as a power greater than Bankai and with Ichigo's fight with Byakuya we see that even a half mask while Ichigo is trying to regain control completely turned the tides on Byakuya.

Here's why this is completely irrelevant:

Kaname was referring to the full, proper Hollow Mask. Not the small ice covering one eye which Hitsugaya had.

As for Ichigo's unstable half hollow mask, there are multiple core differences between it and Hitsugaya's small ice:

• Ichigo's hollow mask was progressively forming itself over a short span of time unlike the ice over Hitsugaya's eye which wasn't developing or changing in such a manner after it appeared.
• Ichigo was possessed by a powerful hollow spirit while Hitsugaya was not.
• Ichigo's eyes changed (like the Vizards when they're using proper full Hollowfication, which indicates Ichigo was close to that state) while with Hitsugaya that didn't happen.

Trying to compare the two in terms of what level of a power boost they gave makes no sense.

So Toshiro and Soi-Fon receiving Hollow powers at all means they got some sort of amp, albeit unquantifiable.

Which is exactly why we can't just assume it was the reason why the Sternritter were one shot. There are other reasons for why it most likely isn't, but I'll get into those later.

The point here being that while the amp might be incapable of being pinpointed to precise accuracy, it is an amp nonetheless.

Funnily enough, Arc himself states why these vague amps cannot be used as a justification for the Sternritter getting one shot, especially when there are other potential reasons holding more objective weight.


The problems with Arc's "wrapping up"

To wrap this up, the Captains that won with their Bankai had been training since they lost their Bankai and had their Bankai partially Hollowfied

Two unquantifiable power amps, whose existence nobody disputes (like Arc seems to think for whatever reason) but whose relevance is based solely on headcanon assumptions.

and the Ritter that lost were weakened by those same Hollow powers and caught off guard.

The Sternritter being weakened is unquantifiable, doesn't necessarily reduce their raw durability and I already went over why they weren't caught off-guard but just couldn't do anything.

So, we have two amps for the Captains (Hollow powers and training) and two nerfs for the Ritter (off guard/surprise and Hollow poisoning).

*Two vague amps which give a completely unknown power boost and only one nerf (because they weren't actually off-guard) which gives them a completely unknown nerf.

For the anti-feat point to be valid, the Ritter would have had to lose to Bankai Captains who were equals to their Bankai selves at the start of the war, but as I've shown that's simply not the case.

Nobody claimed it was the case and you couldn't prove the unknown differences in power were relevant enough to be the reason for why the Sternritter were defeated.

We have Bankai Captains > first invasion Bankai selves defeating Ritter < first invasion selves.

Which proves absolutely nothing.

Thus there are no anti-feats.

Especially not that^

The opposition also are under the impression that the amps and nerfs being unquantifiable means that the anti-feats are still valid.

There are other reasons for why the anti-feats are valid besides the fact that the training and very minor hollowfication are unquantifiable and that arguing with them is the same as arguing with the unknown.

However, that is blatantly incorrect and not how we scale on this site. I'll pose this question: if character X trains and becomes stronger than he was yesterday, is his yesterday self equal to his current self? The answer is no.

Strawman. Nobody claimed that the captains' pre-training selves were equal to their post-training selves.

I'll pose another question: if character Y is weakened due to some mechanism, are they as strong as their peak selves? The answer is still no.

Strawman once again. Nobody claimed that the Sternritter weren't weakened at all. Just that it didn't necessarily make them as weak as Arc makes them out to be and there's no way to prove that the hollow energy poisoning/weakening was the reason for why they were one shot.

So saying that weakened Quincy being beaten by stronger/post-training Shinigami means that the peak Quincy can't scale to weaker versions of the Shinigami is blatantly false.

*Weakened to a completely unknown degree Quincy being beten by stronger to a completely unknown degree Shinigami

To steelman the opposition before I move on to the next point: let's say that the partial Hollowfication didn't amp the Captains at all, would it make a difference to my premise? Well, as proved above, the Captains still trained and got stronger, and again as proved above, the Quincy were weakened in their moment of defeat. So, even without Hollow amps, the Captains in Bankai during the second invasion would be stronger than themselves in the first invasion, and the Ritter in the second invasion that lost would be weaker than their first invasion selves. So, regardless of if I win the Hollow amp point or not, the anti-feat point is still debunked.

This argument may seem persuasive to someone who's not paying attention, but in reality it's just a trick.
All Arc is really saying here is that instead of trying to argue with two completely unknown power boosts for the shinigami and one completely unknown power nerf for the Sternritter, he can also try arguing with one completely unknown power boost for the shinigami and one completely unknown power nerf for the Sternritter.
Needless to say, it doesn't debunk the anti-feats as in both cases Arc is only arguing with complete unknowns.



After this, he goes on to argue about Yhwach being comparable to Zanka no Tachi, which I could agree with for reasons that I'll go over later.
However, in the Conclusion part of his post, he mentions two completely irrelevant points.

To back up my points one last time with a narrative argument: both Shunsui and Renji flat out state that they cannot hope to fight the Ritter without Bankai.

Renji was saying that in reference to As Nodt, who is stronger than Renji. So I don't see any reason why it should generally apply to most captain level shinigami.

The Sternritter being stated to be equal to or stronger than Captain class characters as well. I don't think I need to say much more, but with all these beyond Captain level characters, scaling to Bankai doesn't seem so far fetched does it?

The accepted bar for being considered captain class during the TYBW arc is Large Island level based on these three profiles.
All four Sternritter who stole Bankai are at least one tier above that in base. So even if their base states were downgraded by a tier, it would still be consistent with the statement and therefore Arc's point is completely irrelevant.


Arc later says this

We don't know how much 4 days of training can amp someone
We actually do, let me explain. Prior to Bankai training, Ichigo was incapable of fighting Byakuya and winning as per Yoruichi. We see that Shikai Ichigo is more relative to a base Byakuya, as he blocks a strike with mid-high difficulty, noted by his sweating. However, after the 2-3 days of training, Ichigo is now capable of wounding Byakuya and even takes an attack from Bankai Byakuya with just his Shikai without showing signs of slowing down. Not claiming the 2-3 day training amped Shikai Ichigo from base Byakuya to Bankai Byakuya level, but it was clearly a noticeable amp nonetheless.

which isn't entirely valid for comparison with the TYBW captains, as Ichigo during that stage of the SS arc had only recently acquired his powers and was still rapidly developing and getting used to using them. Meanwhile, the captains have been captains and have had their powers for many decades or even centuries.





Now for the points I mentioned earlier which support the base Sternritter being weaker than the Bankai they stole and them getting one shot being anti-feats. Most of these have been presented earlier but Arc completely ignored them.



Why Urahara wouldn't want to give the captains any sort of significant amp

We have reason to believe that Urahara would avoid trying to give them any kind of significant amp. In past instances of Hollow and Shinigami powers mixing, the results have been quite more noticable than some ice over one eye and Shinigami gaining hollow powers in particular has lead to them becoming very unstable initially, something which Urahara is aware of and isn't stupid enough to risk causing to captains during a conflict such as the second invasion of Seireitei.



BG9's statement and dichotomy

BG9 strongly implies that using Soifon's Bankai would give him power above his base state.
Arc's counter to this was interpreting it as BG9 saying Soifon's training wasn’t enough to match her Bankai. However, that's missing the point of the statement, as BG9 sets a dichotomy between his base being enough to handle Soifon and him needing to use her Bankai if she was strong enough for him not to be "disappointed". Since BG9 thought her Bankai would be needed to fight a stronger Soifon and thought his base would be enough to fight a weaker Soifon, it means there's a power difference between him in base and him using her Bankai.



No tactical advantage of stealing Bankai if Arc's stance is correct

A Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai completely devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai, as the Sternritter would be able to easily overpower the Bankai captain by just going Vollständig.
There is no tactical advantage in stealing Bankai if the Sternritter must be equal to it in base.

Someone might try to claim the medallions with their ability to steal Bankai were made because Yhwach wants his enemies to feel even more powerless while they're being killed by the Sternritter.
However, that goes against Yhwach's character and is therefore not a valid argument.



Sternritter are capable of handling/controlling power on a higher level than their base due to how their Vollständig works

A Vollständig is stated to be an upgraded version of Letz Stil as it doesn't have the drawbacks of the Quincy losing their power when they use it.

Unlike Bankai and Resurrección, Vollständig doesn't release the full version of a Quincy's innate power but instead grants them power absorbed from an outside source (Reishi in the environment) just like using a Medallion (Bankai from a captain). Since the Vollständig power boost doesn't come from the Sternritter themselves yet they can control it, it's fair to say they would be able to control a Bankai stronger than them as long as its power falls within the range between a Sternritter's base and their Vollständig, which is the limit to how much Reishi they can absorb i.e. how much power they can control.
Sternritter who have stolen a Bankai have been stated to be unable to go Vollständig, which supports the idea that their power handling/controlling limit is reached.
This is also why Yhwach can be comparable to Yama's Bankai while the Sternritter in base aren't comparable to the Bankai they stole. It's because Yhwach doesn't use a Vollständig, meaning his base is already at his max power in terms of how much Reishi he can manipulate and therefore represents how much power he can control, while with the Sternritter it's different.




In Summation:


The arguments for Arc's stance (Sternritter in base are comparable to Bankai) are all unquantifiable unknowns:

• The Shinigami got stronger to a completely unknown degree due to their training and that could be enough to make a relevant difference.
• The Shinigami's Bankai were temporarily partially hollowfied and amped to a completely unknown degree and that could be enough to make a relevant difference.
• The Sternritter were weakened to a completely unknown degree by the hollow energy from Urahara's pill and that could be enough to make a relevant difference.

The arguments for the opposing stance besides the anti-feats (Sternritter in base are not comparable to Bankai but likely are comparable in Vollständig) are all more definitive:

• Urahara, the smartest person in Soul Society's history, wouldn't want to hollowfy the captains to a relevant degree as in the past that has resulted in them initially becoming extremely unstable, which is something we know as a matter of fact.
• BG9 makes it clear that his base is enough to fight a weak Soifon, but he would have to use her Bankai to fight a strong Soifon. That is a clear dichotomy stated by the Sternritter himself.
• Sternritter can control power on a higher level than their base due to how their Vollständig is explained to work.
• Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai and would not give any tactical advantage that isn't gained by just going Vollständig instead.

 

[Loyd]

this makes sense
i still think a possibly for Yhwach > bankai yama is fair
but the rest need to go

 

[Damage3245]

A possibly rating for Yhwach could work out.

But I fully support Tsotso's arguments for the Sternritter in general.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That’s a meaty boy tsotso I’ll get back to you when I can!

 

[Reio35]

I'll address Arc7's points later, but for Reio;



We'd still need to have evidence that any hypothetical "post-battle amp" is high enough to make a difference. We can't just assume every character is significantly more powerful than before after a fight, especially since Urahara notes that it is a risk and may not produce a sufficient upgrade.

It's shown man times they get significant amps after each fight. Toshiro high diffs luppy who is ranked number 6. Arguably luppy is weaker than espada level considering aizen just randomly put him their instead of putting someone like zommari who is a rank under grimmjow who was number 6 at the time. Then goes on to fight halibel who is 3 to 7 ranks above luppi. Byakuya mid diffed zommari who is ranked #7 Then goes on to fight yammy who is #0. Same with Kenpachi he high diffed nnoritora who is ranked 5th then neggs yammy while suppressing himself. Ichigo went not even being able to perceive ulqioras speed in his bankai to being relative to base ulq. Hisagi got one shot by base mask de masculine who had no cheer amps. To beating a sternrriter. Which sternritters are stated to be captain level and above and hisagi is a vice captain.

That being said it's consistently shown they get significant amps after each fight

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m still on vacation which is why I think they’re all waiting

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah. I'd be happy to progress with this but I assume that Arc7 still wants to debate it further.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I do still want to debate the stolen Bankai point and should be back later tonight (which is like ~12 hours my time)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

And right off the bat, we are introduced to some basic circular reasoning.

Why did the Sternritter get defeated?
- Because the captains trained and got stronger.

Why would the training give them a relevant boost to power?
- Because they one shot the Sternritter.

But anyways, let's let him explain further.

No, it goes more like this: Captains trained for 4 days -> Ichigo training for 2 days gave him a massive amp, so 4 days should be enough for a significant amp -> Captains logically are stronger now that they physically training -> Captains end up defeating the Sternritter, proving the fruits of their training (sort of the Ritter were weakened)

First off, nobody denied that the Shinigami trained and nobody claimed that they didn't get any stronger at all.

The issue for Arc's stance is that the training boosts are completely unquantifiable and we have other, more solid reasons for why the Sternritter got one shot and why their base forms shouldn't scale to the Bankai.

Additionally, the Byakuya point is irrelevant, as he didn't just train but also got stronger from bathing in Kirinji's hot spring.

Awesome so we agree the Shinigami got stronger, therefore the Ritter didn't lose to Captains who were at the same level that got their Bankai stolen, thus the Ritter losing to stronger Captains isn't an anti-feat.

Also, I did give you a ballpark for how massive a few days of training can amp you with Ichigo's training.

To spell it out, the anti-feat point is as follows: "The Ritter lost to the Bankai they stole, thus they aren't as strong as the Bankai they stole." This point only works if the Captains in the second invasion are on par with their first invasion selves. You must prove that the Bankai are at the same/similar levels. Saying "the Ritter lost" doesn't work when we know the Captains trained, we don't assume characters back scale when they train and get stronger, not how this works.

The statement used "poisounous to Quincies" as a general term for the deficiencies hollow energy causes in Quincy.
"Weaken their spiritual powers" was one of the deficiencies listed, the others being "decay of their souls" and "ultimately death".
So 1) is one of the effects of 2) which is a more general term. They aren't two different things.

I'm unsure of where you're going with this, like do we agree the Quincies were weakened (because that was what was stated)?

Not true. As Nodt, Bambietta and BG9 weren't damaged when the Bankai was recovered. Only Cang was, and the only discernible reason for that was because he was the only one out of the four who was using the Bankai at the time.

Ok

Which isn't the same as being damaged. It also doesn't mean his durability was nerfed, as that is like saying a human's body becomes less durable is their blood flow slows down.

Ehhhh semantics, his internal systems were damaged, you don't need an external wound like a cut, to be considered physically damaged.

He wasn't off guard. He realized that the Bankai had returned to her and saw she was about to shoot him with its missile.

"WHAT!? Why is that Bankai with you!?" sounds like surprise and thus taken by surprise to me.

Toshiro's Bankai beginning to hollowfy is not actual full hollowfication and is unquantifiable.
Cang was only caught off guard by the initial hollow reiatsu damaging him. After that, he continued fighting Toshiro while fully on guard yet he was still frozen without being able to do anything about it.

But it's still an amp, I've given you a training amp the Captains get (quantified by Ichigo's lesser day amount of training providing insane results), Hollowfication is just icing on the cake. The Captains were amped twice for this fight, but you still think they're relative to their first invasion selves?

Well shit lets start back scaling post-training arc characters because the amps aren't quantifiable. Well, they aren't quantifiable until said character fights a character that proves they got stronger... oh wait, if you train, the way you can be shown the results of said training is beating a character that used to be your equal or relative... sounds familiar. Point in case, we know the Captains got stronger through training, so how do we gauge this increase? One way is by comparing their post training fights to their pre training fights.

For reasons I already pointed out, Cang and BG9 weren't off-guard, they just couldn't defend themselves in any way and them being weakened is still unquantifiable and not the most definitive reason for why they lost.

The BG9 off guard thing is questionable at worst, but the amps are unquantifiable? no.

The Captains train and get stronger from training, as training is shown to do in verse (physical exercise increases your spiritual pressure as I proved earlier). So boom we know they got stronger,

The Captains can now beat the Ritter with partial Hollow amps -> THIS is the fruits of their efforts. I'll say it again and again: Captains trained -> training makes you stronger in Bleach -> Captains with partial Hollow amps beat the Ritter that smacked them around earlier -> the results of the training is defeating the Ritter.

The problems with Arc's points regarding the minor, partial, temporary hollowfication of the Bankai

Aight I'll tackle this entire section, instead of point by point since it was short.

The Mask only covered his eye =/= the amp is negligible. Can you provide any evidence the amp is so negligible that a post training Toshiro is relative to his first invasion self?

You missed the whole Kaname point. If proper Hollowfication is stronger than Bankai, than even partial Hollowfication should be a decent amp. I was not saying Toshiro's Hollowfication is an above Bankai level amp.

Finally you say again I need to prove the amp, that's not how debating works. First, if you read my original posts, I posted multiple scans of how a couple days of training can drastically amp oneself, along with physical training increasing your spiritual powers in general. I don't want to repost the scans but I will. Second, you/damage made the claim that the Ritter losing is an anti-feat, THUS the burden of proof by definition is on you to prove the training and hollow amps are so low that second invasion Captains ~ first invasion Captains. I don't need to re-prove something that's already accepted atm. You need to disprove the accepted scaling. I need to debunk your points and defend the current scaling.

Two unquantifiable power amps, whose existence nobody disputes (like Arc seems to think for whatever reason) but whose relevance is based solely on headcanon assumptions.

"unquantifiable"

We don't know how much 4 days of training can amp someone
We actually do, let me explain. Prior to Bankai training, Ichigo was incapable of fighting Byakuya and winning as per Yoruichi. We see that Shikai Ichigo is more relative to a base Byakuya, as he blocks a strike with mid-high difficulty, noted by his sweating. However, after the 2-3 days of training, Ichigo is now capable of wounding Byakuya and even takes an attack from Bankai Byakuya with just his Shikai without showing signs of slowing down. Not claiming the 2-3 day training amped Shikai Ichigo from base Byakuya to Bankai Byakuya level, but it was clearly a noticeable amp nonetheless.

Now, as I cited above, the Captains trained for longer than Ichigo did. So, to claim the amp the post-training Captains received is negligible is false, we clearly see that a couple days of serious training can take you from levels where you'd face certain death against a character to being able to fight said character as equals. Therefore, the 4 days that the Captains were allowed to train is enough time to amp them, and in combination with my previous section, it is enough of an amp where you cannot assert that their Bankai are equal to their pre-training Bankai in power.

sigh... can we cut the "we dont know how much half a week of training can amp you" bullshit. We do know, look at these scans, read my words. You repeating "amps are unquantifiable" does not prove second invasion Captains ~ first invasion Captains

The Sternritter being weakened is unquantifiable, doesn't necessarily reduce their raw durability and I already went over why they weren't caught off-guard but just couldn't do anything.

Ok so two amps + 1 nerf and you still think they aren't significant?

*Two vague amps which give a completely unknown power boost and only one nerf (because they weren't actually off-guard) which gives them a completely unknown nerf.

"unknown"

We don't know how much 4 days of training can amp someone
We actually do, let me explain. Prior to Bankai training, Ichigo was incapable of fighting Byakuya and winning as per Yoruichi. We see that Shikai Ichigo is more relative to a base Byakuya, as he blocks a strike with mid-high difficulty, noted by his sweating. However, after the 2-3 days of training, Ichigo is now capable of wounding Byakuya and even takes an attack from Bankai Byakuya with just his Shikai without showing signs of slowing down. Not claiming the 2-3 day training amped Shikai Ichigo from base Byakuya to Bankai Byakuya level, but it was clearly a noticeable amp nonetheless.

Now, as I cited above, the Captains trained for longer than Ichigo did. So, to claim the amp the post-training Captains received is negligible is false, we clearly see that a couple days of serious training can take you from levels where you'd face certain death against a character to being able to fight said character as equals. Therefore, the 4 days that the Captains were allowed to train is enough time to amp them, and in combination with my previous section, it is enough of an amp where you cannot assert that their Bankai are equal to their pre-training Bankai in power.

In b4, "Arc stop spamming this or I'll report you". Pot and Kettle. Y'all keep repeating the amps are unquantifiable, here it is ^^^^^^ quantified.

Nobody claimed it was the case and you couldn't prove the unknown differences in power were relevant enough to be the reason for why the Sternritter were defeated.

Have you read the fights? After training the Captains beat the Ritter... there's the proof.

Which proves absolutely nothing.

Especially not that^

You/damage's point was that the 2nd invasion Captains ~ 1st invasion Captains, thus the Ritter losing are anti-feats to them being relative to the 1st invasion Captains. However, me proving the 2nd invasion Captains > 1st invasion Captains debunks 2nd invasion Captains ~ 1st invasion Captains, which means there are no anti-feats.

There are other reasons for why the anti-feats are valid besides the fact that the training and very minor hollowfication are unquantifiable and that arguing with them is the same as arguing with the unknown.

"training is unquantifiable"

We don't know how much 4 days of training can amp someone
We actually do, let me explain. Prior to Bankai training, Ichigo was incapable of fighting Byakuya and winning as per Yoruichi. We see that Shikai Ichigo is more relative to a base Byakuya, as he blocks a strike with mid-high difficulty, noted by his sweating. However, after the 2-3 days of training, Ichigo is now capable of wounding Byakuya and even takes an attack from Bankai Byakuya with just his Shikai without showing signs of slowing down. Not claiming the 2-3 day training amped Shikai Ichigo from base Byakuya to Bankai Byakuya level, but it was clearly a noticeable amp nonetheless.

Now, as I cited above, the Captains trained for longer than Ichigo did. So, to claim the amp the post-training Captains received is negligible is false, we clearly see that a couple days of serious training can take you from levels where you'd face certain death against a character to being able to fight said character as equals. Therefore, the 4 days that the Captains were allowed to train is enough time to amp them, and in combination with my previous section, it is enough of an amp where you cannot assert that their Bankai are equal to their pre-training Bankai in power.

In case you can't tell, and by no offense am I meaning by this, I'm starting to wonder if you didn't read this ^^^^ or maybe just missed it. I proved that an a couple days of training takes you from barely base Captain level to nearly relative to Bankai Captain level in base. How is that unquantifiable?

*Weakened to a completely unknown degree Quincy being beten by stronger to a completely unknown degree Shinigami

"Completely unknown"

Look above I'll spare reposting it.

This argument may seem persuasive to someone who's not paying attention, but in reality it's just a trick.
All Arc is really saying here is that instead of trying to argue with two completely unknown power boosts for the shinigami and one completely unknown power nerf for the Sternritter, he can also try arguing with one completely unknown power boost for the shinigami and one completely unknown power nerf for the Sternritter.
Needless to say, it doesn't debunk the anti-feats as in both cases Arc is only arguing with complete unknowns.

"only arguing unknowns"

Look above, but twice. In fact here's my original argument: https://vsbattles.com/threads/sternritter-profiles-revision-bleach.117302/post-3817636

Renji was saying that in reference to As Nodt, who is stronger than Renji. So I don't see any reason why it should generally apply to most captain level shinigami.

No Renji says "we" not "I", so yes he is talking in general.

The accepted bar for being considered captain class during the TYBW arc is Large Island level based on these three profiles.
All four Sternritter who stole Bankai are at least one tier above that in base. So even if their base states were downgraded by a tier, it would still be consistent with the statement and therefore Arc's point is completely irrelevant.

The standard assumption would be above average captain level, not "captain+ means stronger than weakest captains", average captains being Toshiro, Soi Fon, Sajin... It would still be consistent to scale them to Bankai by your point too, so you didn't debunk this at all.

which isn't entirely valid for comparison with the TYBW captains, as Ichigo during that stage of the SS arc had only recently acquired his powers and was still rapidly developing and getting used to using them. Meanwhile, the captains have been captains and have had their powers for many decades or even centuries.

Headcanon, no where is that stated or indicated to ever be the case. Unless you can prove that, my point still stands.

We have reason to believe that Urahara would avoid trying to give them any kind of significant amp. In past instances of Hollow and Shinigami powers mixing, the results have been quite more noticable than some ice over one eye and Shinigami gaining hollow powers in particular has lead to them becoming very unstable initially, something which Urahara is aware of and isn't stupid enough to risk causing to captains during a conflict such as the second invasion of Seireitei.

Not wanting to give them a lot of Hollow reiatsu =/= not wanting to amp them in a meaningful way.

BG9 strongly implies that using Soifon's Bankai would give him power above his base state.
Arc's counter to this was interpreting it as BG9 saying Soifon's training wasn’t enough to match her Bankai. However, that's missing the point of the statement, as BG9 sets a dichotomy between his base being enough to handle Soifon and him needing to use her Bankai if she was strong enough for him not to be "disappointed". Since BG9 thought her Bankai would be needed to fight a stronger Soifon and thought his base would be enough to fight a weaker Soifon, it means there's a power difference between him in base and him using her Bankai.

No all BG9 says is "Soi Fon is strong enough in base to be equal to her Bankai currently", never does BG9 say "I thought you'd be stronger than me and that I'd have to use your Bankai", not the case, this is your headcanon.

A Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai completely devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai, as the Sternritter would be able to easily overpower the Bankai captain by just going Vollständig.
There is no tactical advantage in stealing Bankai if the Sternritter must be equal to it in base.

Someone might try to claim the medallions with their ability to steal Bankai were made because Yhwach wants his enemies to feel even more powerless while they're being killed by the Sternritter.
However, that goes against Yhwach's character and is therefore not a valid argument.

-_-

A yes I'm equal to a Bankai Captain, meaning that the fight could go either way, stealing their Bankai would be totally useless, not like nerfing the Captains has any benefits or anything. Ofc I'm being sarcastic, if you cannot see the benefit of weakening your opponent, I'll explain it to you.

Sternritter are capable of handling/controlling power on a higher level than their base due to how their Vollständig works

A Vollständig is stated to be an upgraded version of Letz Stil as it doesn't have the drawbacks of the Quincy losing their power when they use it.

Unlike Bankai and Resurrección, Vollständig doesn't release the full version of a Quincy's innate power but instead grants them power absorbed from an outside source (Reishi in the environment) just like using a Medallion (Bankai from a captain). Since the Vollständig power boost doesn't come from the Sternritter themselves yet they can control it, it's fair to say they would be able to control a Bankai stronger than them as long as its power falls within the range between a Sternritter's base and their Vollständig, which is the limit to how much Reishi they can absorb i.e. how much power they can control.
Sternritter who have stolen a Bankai have been stated to be unable to go Vollständig, which supports the idea that their power handling/controlling limit is reached.
This is also why Yhwach can be comparable to Yama's Bankai while the Sternritter in base aren't comparable to the Bankai they stole. It's because Yhwach doesn't use a Vollständig, meaning his base is already at his max power in terms of how much Reishi he can manipulate and therefore represents how much power he can control, while with the Sternritter it's different.

This is a headcanon argument. I agree Yhwach ~ Bankai Yama without the medallion statement tho. However, according to y'all the medallion makes it so the Ritter don't have to be equal to the Bankai. Which would mean that for this point to work the Ritter would have to be capable of going into either Bankai or Voll, but that's not the case. That being said, never is it stated or implied that the Ritter being unable to use Voll while haven stolen Bankai means they can't scale.

The arguments for Arc's stance (Sternritter in base are comparable to Bankai) are all unquantifiable unknowns:

"Unknown"

bruh... I've linked the scan enough, it's not unknown, and you saying it is doesn't prove it is, I've provided scans to show how training amps you, and then the fights are proof of such.

Urahara, the smartest person in Soul Society's history, wouldn't want to hollowfy the captains to a relevant degree as in the past that has resulted in them initially becoming extremely unstable, which is something we know as a matter of fact.

Enough Hollow reiatsu to become unstable =/= negligible amp

BG9 makes it clear that his base is enough to fight a weak Soifon, but he would have to use her Bankai to fight a strong Soifon. That is a clear dichotomy stated by the Sternritter himself.

No I went over this above

Sternritter can control power on a higher level than their base due to how their Vollständig is explained to work.

Doesn't debunk them scaling to Bankai

Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai and would not give any tactical advantage that isn't gained by just going Vollständig instead.

Weakening your opponent is an advantage in its own right, this point is now debunked lol

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

TBH it feels like this debate is currently riding on "how significant are the Captains amped between invasions"

So if we wanna focus on that rather than start a massive reply chain (like we did above), and you can bring your scans and evidence that the training amp was negligible and I can bring my scans and evidence for the amp being significant. Then we go from there, narrowing the debate to one point at a time so it stays focused and digestible sounds nice to me.

 

[YukaSama4]

If its accepted that captains got stronger then their post 1st invasion should just scale to their own feats, if they could fight the ritters later and defeat them, they scale to that, I dont understand how people use it as an anti feat.
Its like me saying Ichigo horn of salvation scales to Yhwach, so someone comes and say, no Askin will defeat him because Askin could poison TS Ichigo, and since we dont have a clear multiplier for HOS, its an unknown amp and thus Askin poisoning him is an anti feat and a contradiction for him being able to cut Yhwach in his HOS form.

The captains got destroyed -> they get a zenkai -> then they trained -> they got stronger again -> they regain their bankai.

They got stronger, so its enough to debunk that "since they defeated the ritters in their bankais later its a feat that debunk that ritters were relative to bankai captains"

We dont know how much did they get stronger? thats not important as Ive shown with my example above.

 

[Damage3245]

The captains got destroyed -> they get a zenkai -> then they trained -> they got stronger again -> they regain their bankai.

They got a "Zenkai" from their defeat is as much a head canon argument as anything else.

I've already explained why the training isn't relevant for at least two of the characters. We were given an explanation of what Toshiro and Soi-Fon trained in. We weren't given a statement that they or their Bankai had grown even stronger.

Some characters are obviously accepted to have grown massively stronger, such as Byakuya, Renji, Rukia, Kenpachi, etc.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

"They got a "Zenkai" from their defeat is as much a head canon argument as anything else."

It would be, if we did not have the manga state that they do, so what's ur argument? Because the manga does state that souls do get a zenkai boost in those situation

Manga statements >>> what u think/say

Unless u have a panel of the manga saying that was false of course

 

[Loyd]

this is never gonna end

 

[Damage3245]

It would be, if we did not have the manga state that they do, so what's ur argument? Because the manga does state that souls do get a zenkai boost in those situation

Believe whatever you want. I'm not convinced that the statement is relevant for literally every single fight in the entire manga. I can't imagine using it to say "This character had a fight, so they automatically have higher ratings after the fight."

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Believe whatever you want. I'm not convinced that the statement is relevant for literally every single fight in the entire manga. I can't imagine using it to say "This character had a fight, so they automatically have higher ratings after the fight."

Lucky for me I have the manga, the source saying that it is so.

What u think is not relevant when the manga already stated it is so.

 

[Damage3245]

Lucky for me I have the manga, the source saying that it is so.

What u think is not relevant when the manga already stated it is so.

Good for you?

 

[YukaSama4]

They got a "Zenkai" from their defeat is as much a head canon argument as anything else.

Oh no, its not. Even if u dont want to believe that, thats just not my main point.

I've already explained why the training isn't relevant for at least two of the characters. We were given an explanation of what Toshiro and Soi-Fon trained in. We weren't given a statement that they or their Bankai had grown even stronger.

What? xD
Its like saying Goku got stronger in his base form but we are not given a statement that his blue got stronger. This is not how it works, we accept that bankai has a multiplier, and since their base forms got stronger, bankai should, Easy and simple. If you want to disagree with that, please make a thread and remove the bankai multiplier.

Believe whatever you want. I'm not convinced that the statement is relevant for literally every single fight in the entire manga. I can't imagine using it to say "This character had a fight, so they automatically have higher ratings after the fight."

So literally, you are saying that what I said is a headcanon even while its supported by a statement from the manga, just because it hurts your headcanon

 

[Damage3245]

So literally, you are saying that what I said is a headcanon even while its supported by a statement from the manga, just because it hurts your headcanon

All I want to say right now is that I'm not convinced by your argument.

I don't believe there is sufficient evidence for there to be a relevant boost to their statistics.

I don't expect to change your minds about that. I can only speak for my own views here.

 

[YukaSama4]

All I want to say right now is that I'm not convinced by your argument.

I don't believe there is sufficient evidence for there to be a relevant boost to their statistics.

I don't expect to change your minds about that. I can only speak for my own views here.

I mean, thats fine if you dont agree with me on the zenkai thing, I dont mind that, its not like im running after u with a gun, already said that it wasnt the point that I wanted to reach. But you cant just say that its a headcanon just because you are not convinced even when there is a statement from Kisuke to support it as a general rule for souls in bleach.

 

[joshpiece]

Well I just spent nearly 40 minutes reading every post and I can say I completely agree with Arc, he makes the most sense.

 

[Loyd]

the factor is unquantifiable hollowification i don't think its on the same level as ichigo partial like kisuke said small enough hollowfication to return thr bankais, zenkai see reio's point, reishi poisoning small reishi reduction/minor internal dmg(likely higher for the sternritters using bankai), training?

is enough for the captains who upon retrieving bankai can one shot the sternritters who supposedly are at bankai level before using stolen bankai/volstandig.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

the factor is unquantifiable hollowification i don't think its on the same level as ichigo partial like kisuke said small enough hollowfication to return thr bankais, zenkai see reio's point, reishi poisoning small reishi reduction/minor internal dmg(likely higher for the sternritters using bankai), training?

is enough for the captains who upon retrieving bankai can one shot the sternritters who supposedly are at bankai level before using stolen bankai/volstandig.

It doesn’t matter tho that y’all don’t think the training was worth it. We see they trained, Bleach characters get stronger after surviving near death experiences (ill break out the scan if you don’t believe it), partial Hollowfication is an amp, and the Quincy were weakened. The results of the training were the Captains beating the Ritter.

The Captains trained, our way of measuring the results of their training would be their feats post training. Which happens to be defeating some Ritter.

 

[Loyd]

It doesn’t matter tho that y’all don’t think the training was worth it. We see they trained, Bleach characters get stronger after surviving near death experiences (ill break out the scan if you don’t believe it), partial Hollowfication is an amp, and the Quincy were weakened. The results of the training were the Captains beating the Ritter.

The Captains trained, our way of measuring the results of their training would be their feats post training. Which happens to be defeating some Ritter.

yes the specifics have been argued over i reread bleach, i have all the scans its not whether i believe it all not, with whats given im agreeing with the most reasonable opinion, the statements are all thr doesnt matter what anyone thinks the captains are stronger here now then the first invasion.

but given the points tiny bit of hollowification, internal dmg poisoning(idk why people didn't show this scan bg9 literally keeling over), life or death zenkai , and training hitsugaya
https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0538-009.png
https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0538-008.png

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0538-010.png

soifon likely for shunko
were the results so great it one shotted bankai level sternritters?
or was it the sternritters weren't really bankai level and stealing it meant they only had to be relative/had the capacity to(volstandig)?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yes it was that great, because that’s what happens after they train lol. That’s how we do this, Character A loses Character B who blew up an island, Character A trains, Character A defeats Character B, post training Character A scales above Character B now. It’s super simple.

This whole “I don’t find it believable that the Captains got that much stronger” argument isn’t valid at all. We don’t determine ratings based on our feelings, we do so based off evidence.

Like does Kubo need to give them 100 amps before it’s believable for y’all? Is 3 amps plus nerfing the enemy not believable?

 

[Loyd]

except again the sternritters/medallion is being called into questioning
Damage remains unconvinced do we get other staff or wait for tsotso rebuttal?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Considering damage is outright ignoring facts from the manga regarding the Bleach zenkai, yeah I’d like more input.

I’ll ask KingTempest again since he’s the only other staff to weigh in this thread.

 

[Loyd]

cough 3 minor amps + 1 minor nerf cough

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

cough 3 minor amps + 1 minor nerf cough

Yeah go ahead and prove their minor I’ll wait

 

[Damage3245]

except again the sternritters/medallion is being called into questioning
Damage remains unconvinced do we get other staff or wait for tsotso rebuttal?

Tsotso is currently preparing a counter-post to address the latest points, I believe.

Considerinf damage is outright ignoring facts from the manga regarding the Bleach zenkai, yeah I’d like more input.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm taking it into consideration and comparing it with other information we have on their training and their fights after the four days since the first invasion.