Sternritter Profiles Revision [Bleach]

[Damage3245]

If Ichibe wasn't at least relative to Bankai Yama, Bankai Yama would reiatsu neg his hax. Which would contradict his statement of standing above all Shinigami.

You know there's more than one meaning to him standing above all Shinigami, right? Ichibe, by heading Squad Zero, is also the leader of all Shinigami effectively which puts him "above all Shinigami".

Also, we need to quit it with this speculative reasoning like "Bankai Yama obviously couldn't negate Ichibe, therefore they have to be close to each other in AP."

For Soul Reapers and Arrancars, your hax is relative to your AP. Aizen states so against Soi Fon, and Kenny negs Cien's hax with his reiatsu via being stronger. Which means regardless of how Ichibe wins his AP must be relative to Bankai Yama, else he'd get his hax cancelled.

Nobody ever explicitly stated that base Ichibe would beat Bankai Yama.

For all we know maybe base Ichibe would just blitz Yama before he could go Bankai and use conceptual power nullification to stop him - or rename him so he no longer has that level of power.

There's an opposite to being spoon-fed which is just making up your own head canon entirely from loose interpretations of statements.


One more point regarding the strength of the Quincy in relation to the stolen Bankai. BG9 implies that the Bankai he stole would be a power-up for him. Reading this page, he seems to be implying that Soi-Fon without her Bankai is at a level that he can handle just fine but if she was more powerful than he would need to resort to using her Bankai.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

One more point regarding the strength of the Quincy in relation to the stolen Bankai. BG9 implies that the Bankai he stole would be a power-up for him. Reading this page, he seems to be implying that Soi-Fon without her Bankai is at a level that he can handle just fine but if she was more powerful than he would need to resort to using her Bankai.

This is more so BG9 just saying the fruits of her training weren’t enough to match her Bankai.

There's an opposite to being spoon-fed which is just making up your own head canon entirely from loose interpretations of statements.

There’s also such thing what’s probable vs possible.

Ichibe has been around since before Soul Society existed and serves as the ultimate protector to the god who holds the universe. It bears fruit to consider the narrative and intent of the author. Refusal to acknowledge more than what we are directly told is negligence.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

When someone cannot control a power in Bleach their body breaks. See the Kenny and Ichigo scans from early about their on power breaking them.

Yhwach stated he could control Zanka no Tachi prior to acquiring it. Based on the series precedence it would lead you to believe Yhwach is on Bankai Yama level.

Rather than leap thru holes and find ways to speculate why Yhwach doesn’t scale, I prefer a simpler less assumptions approach.

And again Occam’s Razor supports Yhwach scaling to Bankai Yama. Less to assume.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Might be neutral tbh.

If the point of Ichibe > Bankai Yama is valid (which I'm leaning towards agree), that needs it's own CRT or it's own section here to be discussed

ichibe is already rated as =/above bankai yama on the wiki, so no CTR needed there.

 

[Damage3245]

When someone cannot control a power in Bleach their body breaks. See the Kenny and Ichigo scans from early about their on power breaking them.

That wasn't a matter about the power being beyond their control.

Kenpachi's body just wasn't able to withstand it.

As I said up above, we aren't told what it means for a Sternritter to not have control over a Bankai's power.

You can assume that is what would happen, but as you say Occam's Razor is relevant. I'd rather not make that assumption.

Yhwach stated he could control Zanka no Tachi prior to acquiring it. Based on the series precedence it would lead you to believe Yhwach is on Bankai Yama level.

I still think that my argument about the normal users of Bankai, the Shinigami, hasn't gone properly answered.

Yama can control his own Bankai. He doesn't scale to it normally.

Yhwach can control Yama's Bankai. He shouldn't scale to it normally.

How they activate the Bankai hasn't been shown to be relevant in this.

I don't think it's been proven that simply being able to control the Bankai means you can produce attacks of that level.

ichibe is already rated as =/above bankai yama on the wiki, so no CTR needed there.

That's only because he is scaling to Yhwach who is being scaled to Bankai Yama.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah if Ichibe needs changing that can be addressed in a separate CRT, as Damage said this thread has a very specific simple ratings purpose.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That wasn't a matter about the power being beyond their control.

Kenpachi's body just wasn't able to withstand it.

As I said up above, we aren't told what it means for a Sternritter to not have control over a Bankai's power.

You can assume that is what would happen, but as you say Occam's Razor is relevant. I'd rather not make that assumption.

Kenpachi’s body broke because Yachiru released more power than Kenny could control.

about the normal users of Bankai, the Shinigami, hasn't gone answered.

Yama can control his own Bankai. He doesn't scale to it normally.

Yhwach can control Yama's Bankai. He shouldn't scale to it normally.

How they activate the Bankai hasn't been shown to be relevant in this.

I don't think it's been proven that simply being able to control the Bankai means you can produce attacks of that level.

Zanpakuto and the medallion function fundamentally different.

A Zanpakuto SEALS ones power within the sword.

The medallion only STEALS it rather than nerfing and sealing it away.

Does that make sense or should I articulate it more in depth?

 

[Reio35]

Ichibei is def above bankai yama. Yamas bankai is just his reiastu. Yamas body could withstand his condensed reiatsu which means he even in base he should scale. Everyone that died in the war their power went to yhwach so all yamas power when he died went to yhwach. Ichibei casually slapped around yhwach.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

True Yhwach would’ve absorbed Yama’s power post death anyhow that’s a good point.

 

[Damage3245]

Even if we assumed that was the case (and assumed that Yhwach increased his AP by the amount of AP that characters had when they died) that would only be base Yama that he is absorbing.

As for the issue with the users of the Bankai, I don't think you've clarified what relevance the difference is.

If your point is that Yhwach needs a certain level of durability, then you're ignoring that Yama's Bankai would grant him an increase in durability to match the increase in AP. Just like how Yama gets his own durability boosted by it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

As for the issue with the users of the Bankai, I don't think you've clarified what relevance the difference is.

Are you referring to the sealing vs stealing? Cuz if so I’d love to go into it

 

[Tsotso]

I feel like some earlier arguments about how the lower Sternritter scale to the Bankai they stole have been swept under the rug in favor of repeating the same arguments about how Yhwach scales to Yama's Bankai over and over again.

As me and Damage have pointed out already, there are multiple reasons to doubt Arc's stance on the Bankai's very minor, split second long hollowfication.

- The amp is very minor going off the visual comparison between Toshiro's little eye covering ice and actual full Hollowfication.
It being unquantifiable is worse for Arc's stance than it is for the opposition, as arguing with uncertainty is the same as arguing with headcanon.
The amp could be 2x or it could be 2%. We can't say, therefore we can't definitively assume it's the reason the Sternritter were one shot.
There is no narrative (Urahara doesn't mention anything about the Bankai receiving a relevant amp) or visual (the comparison above) evidence that suggests the tiny split second hollowfication of the Bankai is in any way, shape or form comparable to the accepted 5x multiplier for Hollowfication or an increase big enough to one shot somebody.
+ And in case Arc tries to say Hitsugaya's small ice is equal to Ichigo's unstable Hollowfication during the SS arc Byakuya fight, there are multiple core differences between the two:

• Ichigo's hollow mask was progressively forming itself over a short span of time unlike the ice over Hitsugaya's eye which wasn't developing or changing in such a manner after it appeared.
• Ichigo was possessed by a powerful hollow spirit while Hitsugaya was not.
• Ichigo's eyes changed (like the Vizards when they're using proper full Hollowfication, which indicates Ichigo was close to that state) while with Hitsugaya that didn't happen.

- We have reason to believe that Urahara would avoid trying to give them any kind of significant amp. In past instances of Hollow and Shinigami powers mixing, the results have been quite more noticable than some ice over one eye and Shinigami gaining hollow powers in particular has lead to them becoming very unstable initially, something which Urahara is aware of and isn't stupid enough to risk causing to captains during a conflict such as the second invasion of Seireitei.


The Sternritter getting one shot doesn't necessarily support the notion that the Bankai got a significant amp from the Hollowfication, as there are reasons to believe the Bankai were stronger than the Sternritter's base anyways.

- A Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai, as the Sternritter would be able to easily overpower the Bankai captain by just going Vollständig.

- BG9 strongly implies that using Soifon's Bankai would give him power above his base state.
Arc's counter to this was interpreting it as BG9 saying Soifon's training wasn’t enough to match her Bankai. However, that's missing the point of the statement, as BG9 sets a dichotomy between his base being enough to handle Soifon and him needing to use her Bankai if she was strong enough for him not to be "disappointed". Since BG9 thought her Bankai would be needed to fight a stronger Soifon and thought his base would be enough to fight a weaker Soifon, it means there's a power difference between him in base and him using her Bankai.

- Sternritter are capable of handling/controlling power on a higher level than their base due to how their Vollständig works.
Unlike Bankai and Resurrección, Vollständig doesn't release the full version of a Quincy's innate power but instead grants them power absorbed from an outside source (Reishi in the environment) just like using a Medallion (Bankai from a captain). Since the Vollständig power boost doesn't come from the Sternritter themselves yet they can control it, it's fair to say they would be able to control a Bankai stronger than them as long as its power falls within the range between a Sternritter's base and their Vollständig, which is the limit to how much Reishi they can absorb i.e. how much power they can control.
Sternritter who have stolen a Bankai have been stated to be unable to go Vollständig, which supports the idea that their power handling/controlling limit is reached.


As for the "Sternritter were weakened by the tiny hollow power injected into a Bankai for a split second because it's poisonous to them" argument, Quilge Opie would beg to differ.
All Urahara was describing were general long term deficiencies Quincy can experience after exposure to hollow reiatsu. However, as we saw with Quilge, they don't seem to appear right away in the short term, and Quilge absorbed way more hollow reiatsu from Ayon than Cang and BG9 did from Urahara's pill.
Apparently the novels confirm Vollständig allows Quincy to absorb hollow reishi without harm so ignore that^
Still, the degree to which they were supposedly weakened is unquantifiable and may not have a bearing on their durability.
The results on the Sternritter from the Bankai being slightly hollowfied were:

• Cang was the only one who got injured because he was using the Bankai at the time. This is why none of the others took actual damage.
• BG9 noted that his connections were just slowed down.
• As Nodt and Bambietta weren't injured by the tiny bit of hollow energy like Cang was and Bambietta didn't note any noticable changes or signs of being weakened. In fact, right after that she went on to activate her Vollständig, one shot Shinji and fight Komamura who had undergone humanification.

The only thing out of these which implies someone was weakened is BG9 saying his connections were slowed. However, that doesn't mean anything in regards to durability as it would be like saying someone becomes less durable if their blood flow slows down temporarily.

 

[Damage3245]

Excellent arguments Tsotso.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What a bunch of strange things to argue about...

Yhwach not being as strong as Bankai Yama despite the fact he is the only one who can wield his power amongst the Quincy.

Certain Vollstandig Quincy scaling above Yhwach.

Ichibei apparently not being the most powerful pure Shinigami despite the statements implying he is and absolutely slaughtering Yhwach.

 

[Damage3245]

Yhwach not being as strong as Bankai Yama despite the fact he is the only one who can wield his power amongst the Quincy.

Yes. My proposal is that isn't sufficient proof for his own attacks to be equal to Bankai Yama's attacks.

Just being able to wield Yamamoto's Bankai means he should only be scaling to it whilst he has the Bankai active.

Just like how Yamamoto only scales to his own Bankai when he has his Bankai active.

Certain Vollstandig Quincy scaling above Yhwach.

Doesn't seem impossible to me. It's not like we were told that Yhwach is superior to every single Quincy's Vollstandig.

Ichibei apparently not being the most powerful pure Shinigami despite the statements implying he is and absolutely slaughtering Yhwach.

I don't mind Ichibei being a better fighter than Yama, but the statements aren't as explicit as "Ichibe has more raw power than Bankai Yamamoto".

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Doesn't seem impossible to me. It's not like we were told that Yhwach is superior to every single Quincy's Vollstandig.

Sorry but you’re gonna need quite a bit of evidence to suggest the king/god amongst Quincy is somehow inferior to his subordinates who he himself bestowed his powers upon and who they fear so greatly. This is some left field logic based off absolutely nothing and is completely unsupported. Meanwhile there is direct statements already putting him above the strongest Quincy.

I don't mind Ichibei being a better fighter than Yama, but the statements aren't as explicit as "Ichibe has more raw power than Bankai Yamamoto".

This is just a nitpick. Ichibei wields most of fighting power of the zero division the same group already stated to be above the gotei. They’re the last defensive force were soul society to be invaded. Why in the world would Ichibei be weaker than Yama when we’ve seen him slaughter Yhwach effortlessly before The Almighty? The same thing Yama failed to do against Yhwach without The Almighty.

 

[Damage3245]

The same thing Yama failed to do against Yhwach without The Almighty.

You're sort of glossing over the fact that Yama lost his Bankai before Yhwach "effortlessly slaughtered" him. Meaning we didn't see how well Yhwach would fare against fighting Yamamoto at full power.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Well according to your logic he’d be passively vaporized and be done with without Yama even moving .

 

[Loyd]

royd Lloyd with yhwach memories/personality/combat experience survived fairly well against Yama in bankai no? and as yhwach said royd is too weak to contain yama bankai and should've retreat. im fairly certain Yhwach > Royd
until Arc makes his response im... kinda agreeing with damage wasn't it also hinted that the Quincy feared bankai too? they don't necessary have to be at bankai level to steal it just relative and again some of them trained with it to utilise more of its powers

 

[Damage3245]

royd Lloyd with yhwach memories/personality/combat experience survived fairly well against Yama in bankai no? and as yhwach said royd is too weak to contain yama bankai and should've retreat. im fairly certain Yhwach > Royd

I guess it depends on what you mean by "survived fairly well" in that fight. He dodged a few strikes, and he was dealing fairly well against Yama's undead skeletons... but he couldn't harm Bankai Yama, and when Bankai Yama landed a hit on him it tore straight through him.

 

[Loyd]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "survived fairly well" in that fight. He dodged a few strikes, and he was dealing fairly well against Yama's undead skeletons... but he couldn't harm Bankai Yama, and when Bankai Yama landed a hit on him it tore straight through him.

ok even with Yhwach memory mimicry amp you gotta admit Royd dodging a swing from bankai yama is pretty impressive
and again with yhwach memory he has no knowledge of how any of yama new bankai abilities worked
and the slash that actually finished him was his North ability which has range

 

[SilentBob34]

You're sort of glossing over the fact that Yama lost his Bankai before Yhwach "effortlessly slaughtered" him. Meaning we didn't see how well Yhwach would fare against fighting Yamamoto at full power.

Why would he bother trying to fight bankai Yamamoto if he could just easily steal his bankai and avoid a hassle? Yhwach is proven to be a cautious individual before. Hell, even an Almighty activated soul king Yhwach is extremely cautious given he broke Ichigo’s bankai before he even had a chance to fight him with it. And I’m still amazed you’re trying to argue one of his subordinates could be stronger than him. It’s like trying to say bankai Byakuya is stronger than Yamamoto because we’re not given a quote that he’s stronger than his subordinates bankai lol. Sometimes we use common sense here man

going by that logic, I guess since were not given a quote, bos bankai Byakuya and Ichigo could be stronger than shikai Yamamoto and Aizen, even though everything in the manga says differently but hey, your interpretations are the most accurate right?

 

[Damage3245]

Why would he bother trying to fight bankai Yamamoto if he could just easily steal his bankai and avoid a hassle? Yhwach is proven to be a cautious individual before.

Well... duh? I don't know what your point is.

That has nothing to do with my point.

Yhwach stealing Yama's Bankai because he's a cautious individiual is not supporting evidence that he could fight Bankai Yama equally.

And I’m still amazed you’re trying to argue one of his subordinates could be stronger than him. It’s like trying to say bankai Byakuya is stronger than Yamamoto because we’re not given a quote that he’s stronger than his subordinates bankai lol. Sometimes we use common sense here man

Evidence and feats matter more than "common sense" which can be whatever you say it is.

If we had evidence that Bankai Byakuya is stronger than Yamamoto, or that Yamamoto is stronger than Bankai Byakuya, then that is all that matters.

going by that logic, I guess since were not given a quote, bos bankai Byakuya and Ichigo could be stronger than shikai Yamamoto and Aizen, even though everything in the manga says differently but hey, your interpretations are the most accurate right?

If I thought my interpretations were wrong and inaccurate, then I'd change them.

 

[SilentBob34]

Well... duh? I don't know what your point is.

That has nothing to do with my point.

Yhwach stealing Yama's Bankai because he's a cautious individiual is not supporting evidence that he could fight Bankai Yama equally.



Evidence and feats matter more than "common sense" which can be whatever you say it is.

If we had evidence that Bankai Byakuya is stronger than Yamamoto, or that Yamamoto is stronger than Bankai Byakuya, then that is all that matters.



If I thought my interpretations were wrong and inaccurate, then I'd change them.

Hey, a little off topic but how do you separate each part of a response like that?

so you’re saying that you’d be fine with bos bankai Byakuya and by extension bos bankai Ichigo being stronger than Azien and Yamamoto even though Aizen could stop Ichigo’s sword with a finger? Wow.. that’s just wow. The fact that someone weaker than Yhwach was able to fight against bankai Yamamoto for a short while and Yamamoto not commenting to Shunsui that his past battle with Yhwach was easily handled kinda also helps prove that Yhwach wasn’t that far from Yamamoto’s bankai level of power.

Mayuri tells Yamamoto that he failed to kill Yhwach in the past and Yamamoto tells Shunsui indirectly sort of? That if a threat like Yhwach came again that Yamamoto would probably die is even more proof that Yhwach could fight against bankai Yamamoto so idk why you’re ignoring all of this

 

[M11UTD]

Yhwach takes the powers of all who died in the war, that includes Yama, and he still got slapped by base Ichibe.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Damage, don’t get me wrong though, I still think your first 2 points of the op were really well done and I have faith in your next points after we get past this one. Except for the Ichigo and Quilge one. That I do have a lot to argue about but we’ll get to that when we get to that

 

[Reio35]

Zero Division is stated 2 or 3 times to be stronger than the gotei 13. Most of the zero division lost to base auswahlen amp elite sternritters. Captains like byakuya,shunsui and Kenpachis fought them in much stronger forms. These same captains besides Kenpachi are all stated to be much weaker than shikai hikone.

Ichibei scales to prime ikomikidomi who is stated to be much stronger than bankai hikone. Ichibei would also be stronger than yama scaling above all the zero division combined

 

[Damage3245]

Hey, a little off topic but how do you separate each part of a response like that?

Just copy and paste each part of the response

so you’re saying that you’d be fine with bos bankai Byakuya and by extension bos bankai Ichigo being stronger than Azien and Yamamoto even though Aizen could stop Ichigo’s sword with a finger? Wow.. that’s just wow.

How badly do you have to misread my posts to come to that conclusion from what I said?

Can you kindly not waste my time with this if this is what you're going to come back with?

In case I need to break it down for you, Aizen stopping Ichigo's sword with a finger IS what we call "evidence and feats."

So no, I feel like it's pretty damn obvious that I'm not saying I'm fine with Beginning of Series Byakuya and Ichigo being rated higher than Yamamoto. Like, what the hell?

Mayuri tells Yamamoto that he failed to kill Yhwach in the past and Yamamoto tells Shunsui indirectly sort of? That if a threat like Yhwach came again that Yamamoto would probably die is even more proof that Yhwach could fight against bankai Yamamoto so idk why you’re ignoring all of this

I don't think that's the right reading of Yamamoto's words to Shunsui at all.

@Damage, don’t get me wrong though, I still think your first 2 points of the op were really well done and I have faith in your next points after we get past this one. Except for the Ichigo and Quilge one. That I do have a lot to argue about but we’ll get to that when we get to that

I'm losing faith in your responses if you came up with what you posted up above.

 

[Loyd]

unironically got stuck on yama and yhwach again anyone got an argument for Tsotso point?

 

[Cyberblader90]

Are we ignoring that the captain's got stronger in the time frame between the first and second invasion?

Even if the hollow amp was very minor, they were going to be stronger using their bankai than they were in the first invasion given their training.

I don't really see how it's an anti-feat at all

 

[Loyd]

As for the "Sternritter were weakened by the tiny hollow power injected into a Bankai for a split second because it's poisonous to them" argument, Quilge Opie would beg to differ.
All Urahara was describing were general long term deficiencies Quincy can experience after exposure to hollow reiatsu. However, as we saw with Quilge, they don't seem to appear right away in the short term, and Quilge absorbed way more hollow reiatsu from Ayon than Cang and BG9 did from Urahara's pill.

also to refute this point,
absorbing hollow reishi is poisonous and does lower there spiritual pressure
quilge was unaffected because he was in volstandig complete Holy form and decomposing and breaking it down with skalverei(slavery) of reishi a scan from the novel

as oppose to other quincys not in volstandig cause of bankai

 

[Tsotso]

also to refute this point,
absorbing hollow reishi is poisonous and does lower there spiritual pressure
quilge was unaffected because he was in volstandig complete Holy form and decomposing and breaking it down with skalverei(slavery) of reishi a scan from the novel

as oppose to other quincys not in volstandig cause of bankai

Still, the degree to which they were supposedly weakened is unquantifiable and may not have a bearing on their durability.
The results on the Sternritter from the Bankai being slightly hollowfied were:

• Cang was the only one who got injured because he was using the Bankai at the time. This is why none of the others took actual damage.
• BG9 noted that his connections were just slowed down.
• As Nodt and Bambietta weren't injured by the tiny bit of hollow energy like Cang was and Bambietta didn't note any noticable changes or signs of being weakened. In fact, right after that she went on to activate her Vollständig, one shot Shinji and fight Komamura who had undergone humanification.

The only thing out of these which implies someone was weakened is BG9 saying his connections were slowed. However, that doesn't mean anything in regards to durability as it would be like saying someone becomes less durable if their blood flow or metabolism slows down temporarily.

 

[Loyd]

Are we ignoring that the captain's got stronger in the time frame between the first and second invasion?

Even if the hollow amp was very minor, they were going to be stronger using their bankai than they were in the first invasion given their training.

I don't really see how it's an anti-feat at all

This
And also i don't disagree that its unquantifiable
(Imo i dont think its that big like arc is making it out to be) bit it stil an added affect.

And as for the other quincy shrugging it off can we get an addition/note for volstandig when the quincy go into that form they seem to heal minor dmg prior.

 

[Tsotso]

And as for the other quincy shrugging it off can we get an addition/note for volstandig when the quincy go into that form they seem to heal minor dmg prior.

BG9 certainly didn't.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I don’t think that’s minor damage?

 

[Reio35]

I feel like some earlier arguments about how the lower Sternritter scale to the Bankai they stole have been swept under the rug in favor of repeating the same arguments about how Yhwach scales to Yama's Bankai over and over again.

As me and Damage have pointed out already, there are multiple reasons to doubt Arc's stance on the Bankai's very minor, split second long hollowfication.

- The amp is very minor going off the visual comparison between Toshiro's little eye covering ice and actual full Hollowfication.
It being unquantifiable is worse for Arc's stance than it is for the opposition, as arguing with uncertainty is the same as arguing with headcanon.
The amp could be 2x or it could be 2%. We can't say, therefore we can't definitively assume it's the reason the Sternritter were one shot.
There is no narrative (Urahara doesn't mention anything about the Bankai receiving a relevant amp) or visual (the comparison above) evidence that suggests the tiny split second hollowfication of the Bankai is in any way, shape or form comparable to the accepted 5x multiplier for Hollowfication or an increase big enough to one shot somebody.
+ And in case Arc tries to say Hitsugaya's small ice is equal to Ichigo's unstable Hollowfication during the SS arc Byakuya fight, there are multiple core differences between the two:

• Ichigo's hollow mask was progressively forming itself over a short span of time unlike the ice over Hitsugaya's eye which wasn't developing or changing in such a manner after it appeared.
• Ichigo was possessed by a powerful hollow spirit while Hitsugaya was not.
• Ichigo's eyes changed (like the Vizards when they're using proper full Hollowfication, which indicates Ichigo was close to that state) while with Hitsugaya that didn't happen.

- We have reason to believe that Urahara would avoid trying to give them any kind of significant amp. In past instances of Hollow and Shinigami powers mixing, the results have been quite more noticable than some ice over one eye and Shinigami gaining hollow powers in particular has lead to them becoming very unstable initially, something which Urahara is aware of and isn't stupid enough to risk causing to captains during a conflict such as the second invasion of Seireitei.


The Sternritter getting one shot doesn't necessarily support the notion that the Bankai got a significant amp from the Hollowfication, as there are reasons to believe the Bankai were stronger than the Sternritter's base anyways.

- A Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai, as the Sternritter would be able to easily overpower the Bankai captain by just going Vollständig.

It's stated they were ordered by yhwach to steal and kill them with thier own bankai. Even when bamabetta lost the bankia she stole. She literally stated that it was a good thing can use their holy forms which is stronger.

- BG9 strongly implies that using Soifon's Bankai would give him power above his base state.
Arc's counter to this was interpreting it as BG9 saying Soifon's training wasn’t enough to match her Bankai. However, that's missing the point of the statement, as BG9 sets a dichotomy between his base being enough to handle Soifon and him needing to use her Bankai if she was strong enough for him not to be "disappointed". Since BG9 thought her Bankai would be needed to fight a stronger Soifon and thought his base would be enough to fight a weaker Soifon, it means there's a power difference between him in base and him using her Bankai.

This doesn't mean they arent relative to the bankia they stole it would just add to their power. And bg9 still survived soifons bankai not even using holy form and even told yhwach he could still fight. Same with kang du who literally broke out toshiros ice

- Sternritter are capable of handling/controlling power on a higher level than their base due to how their Vollständig works.
Unlike Bankai and Resurrección, Vollständig doesn't release the full version of a Quincy's innate power but instead grants them power absorbed from an outside source (Reishi in the environment) just like using a Medallion (Bankai from a captain). Since the Vollständig power boost doesn't come from the Sternritter themselves yet they can control it, it's fair to say they would be able to control a Bankai stronger than them as long as its power falls within the range between a Sternritter's base and their Vollständig, which is the limit to how much Reishi they can absorb i.e. how much power they can control.
Sternritter who have stolen a Bankai have been stated to be unable to go Vollständig, which supports the idea that their power handling/controlling limit is reached.

Headcannon nowhere is that implied

As for the "Sternritter were weakened by the tiny hollow power injected into a Bankai for a split second because it's poisonous to them" argument, Quilge Opie would beg to differ.
All Urahara was describing were general long term deficiencies Quincy can experience after exposure to hollow reiatsu. However, as we saw with Quilge, they don't seem to appear right away in the short term, and Quilge absorbed way more hollow reiatsu from Ayon than Cang and BG9 did from Urahara's pill.

 

[Loyd]

Maybe mid low regen upon activating volstandig for quincy/flesh

isnt he a cyborg might need new parts

 

[Tsotso]

My point is he didn't seem to heal at all from this to this

 

[Loyd]

Is he a quincy wearing armor or is he a cyborg?
Think its fair if Volstandig can presumably just heal ordinary quincies activating it this is derailing back on topic

 

[Tsotso]

It's stated they were ordered by yhwach to steal and kill them with thier own bankai. Even when bamabetta lost the bankia she stole. She literally stated that it was a good thing can use their holy forms which is stronger.

First off, that's only in response to this part of my post:
- A Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai, as the Sternritter would be able to easily overpower the Bankai captain by just going Vollständig.
Yet for whatever reason you quoted a lot more which you haven't addressed.

Now as for why your response doesn't refute anything. Yhwach ordering that the shinigami who had their Bankai stolen should be killed by the Sternritter who stole it doesn't help anyone's point so I don't see why you bothered to bring it up. It doesn't mean the Sternritter were equal to Bankai in base, it doesn't elaborate on anything as a matter of fact. All it tells us is that Yhwach thought those who were able to steal a Bankai should be the ones to defeat the original owners. Which doesn't prove or imply anything.
As for Bambietta's example, her Vollstandig could be a higher increase to her than Sajin's Bankai was. Whenever a Sternritter steals a Bankai, the version they can use is weaker than when the captain is using it. This is confirmed in the Yama vs Driscoll fight. A Quincy technique being more beneficial to a Quincy than a stolen Bankai doesn't seem outlandish.

This doesn't mean they arent relative to the bankia they stole it would just add to their power. And bg9 still survived soifons bankai not even using holy form and even told yhwach he could still fight. Same with kang du who literally broke out toshiros ice

BG9 didn't state to Soifon that he didn't need to go all out because she was weaker than expected. He specifically said he didn't need to use her Bankai because she was weaker than expected, which implies his individual power is weaker than the Bankai. You haven't provided an actual refutation to my point besides just saying "No, they're still relative".
As for BG9, he stated that the reason he survived was because he activated his Vollständig.
As for *Cang Du, he was only shown breaking the ice when he activated his Vollständig.

Headcannon nowhere is that implied

A Vollständig is stated to be an upgraded version of Letz Stil as it doesn't have the drawbacks of the Quincy losing their power when they use it.
It works by absorbing Reishi, thus giving the Quincy more power. Loyd gave a scan from a novel which also elaborates on this.