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anyone have the crt where it was decided rukia scales to renji?
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Sternritter Profiles Revision [Bleach]
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
- 31,567
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- Thread starter
- #82
Can't find a CRT for it, but it looks like that justification was added by a user in 2016.
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should she just scale then to as nodt?
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So she should be 6-B, since Vollständig As Nodt is extremely close to baseline 6-B.
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- #87
Yeah. This is primarily a thread for sorting out the justifications; not definitively deciding the ratings.
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still, should rukia be changed now?
- 31,567
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- Thread starter
- #90
I need some more spare time to work on that, will probably get into that tomorrow morning.
We should probably change Rukia for now.
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Rukia Kuchiki
Rukia Kuchiki (朽くち木き ルキア, Kuchiki Rukia?) is the current Captain of the 13th Division. She formerly served as lieutenant of the 13th Division under Captain Jūshirō Ukitake. Rukia is the adoptive younger sister of Byakuya Kuchiki and a friend of Ichigo Kurosaki. Tier: At most 7-B, likely at least...
vsbattles.fandom.com
what should be removed
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also her durability justification makes no sense
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Probably cause it’s not durability, it’s just an effect of her Bankai.
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should the line be removed?
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how about this
Catches As Nodt's fear spike with her bare hand
Catches As Nodt's fear spike with her bare hand
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Yeah, definitely.
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This is absolutely impeccable, the perfect scan for the perfect timinghow about this
Catches As Nodt's fear spike with her bare hand
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done
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We all seem to have agreed on it, so would it be alright if I edited the durability justifications of the Sternritter girls?
- 31,567
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- Thread starter
- #102
Sorry, I thought I updated them yesterday. I'll take care of that now.
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- #103
I'm going to be busier tonight than I thought I would be, so I'll continue this tomorrow when it's the weekend.
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I anticipate this next proposal may be more controversial.
This affects the ratings of three characters primarily; Yhwach, Cang Du and As Nodt.
Yhwach
Cang Du
As Nodt
The primary issue with this is that Yhwach's statement makes no mention of Reiatsu necessary or that the "level of power" [if that is what is required] has to be equal to the Shinigami's Bankai in order to control them.
Cang Du states that he trained with Toshiro's Bankai to control it after he acquired it.
If raw power / AP alone was what detirmined control over Bankai, then why would training be necessary?
If we look at each of the character's feats when facing the Bankai that they stole:
1) Cang Du was instantly defeated by Toshiro as soon as he regained his Bankai. He survived the attack but had to be revived through Vollstandig to keep fighting.
2) BG9 was blown apart by Soi-Fon as soon as she regained her Bankai. He survived the attack but had to be revived through Vollstandig to keep fighting.
3) Bambietta, while in her Vollstandig form, is swatted out of the sky by Sajin's Bankai which knocks her own explosions into her. This one is the least relevant because it wasn't solely Sajin's attack that defeated her. She was defeated by a combination of his single strike, plus her own explosives.
4) As Nodt is cut in multiple places by Byakuya's Shikai even while seemingly using Blut Vene to amplify his defenses. We don't get to see how well he'd do against Byakuya's Bankai normally because the next time Byakuya fights him, is after Byakuya recieved a power-up and trounced him with his Shikai. Still, if As Nodt's statistics are supposed to be equal to Byakuya's Bankai normally but he gets damaged by Byakuya's Shikai while at his most durable, then something is wrong.
5) We don't see Yhwach's performance against Yamamoto's Bankai. The only thing we do know is that Royd, who Yama mistook for Yhwach, was unable to fight back effectively against Yama and died easily.
6) This last point is regarding Chojiro's Bankai that was stolen by Driscol. Yama claimed that Driscol's usage of the Bankai is weaker than Chojiro's. Which makes sense since Chojiro's usage of it could permanently scar Yama in the past while Driscol's did not. When Driscol activated the Bankai, Shuhei was in awe of the spiritual pressure meaning you'd think that the Bankai being used is greater the Driscol's power is normally. So the conclusion of this is that Driscol normally is inferior to Chojiro's normal Bankai.
So that's a majority of cases where we can infer that these Sternritter at base are inferior to the Bankai that they stole.
My proposal is simply that we remove this justification from scaling from the three profiles and scale them more appropriately off of their feats such as; Yhwach easily defeating Shikai Yamamoto and being stronger than Gremmy, As Nodt handling Renji with ease, Cang Du defeating Rangiku Matsumoto, etc. Exact specifics can be discussed.
We can give them a separate rating for what they would be at with the Bankai that they have stolen. But their base statistics should not be assumed to be equal to the Bankai's statistics.
This affects the ratings of three characters primarily; Yhwach, Cang Du and As Nodt.
Yhwach
Cang Du
As Nodt
The primary issue with this is that Yhwach's statement makes no mention of Reiatsu necessary or that the "level of power" [if that is what is required] has to be equal to the Shinigami's Bankai in order to control them.
Cang Du states that he trained with Toshiro's Bankai to control it after he acquired it.
If raw power / AP alone was what detirmined control over Bankai, then why would training be necessary?
If we look at each of the character's feats when facing the Bankai that they stole:
1) Cang Du was instantly defeated by Toshiro as soon as he regained his Bankai. He survived the attack but had to be revived through Vollstandig to keep fighting.
2) BG9 was blown apart by Soi-Fon as soon as she regained her Bankai. He survived the attack but had to be revived through Vollstandig to keep fighting.
3) Bambietta, while in her Vollstandig form, is swatted out of the sky by Sajin's Bankai which knocks her own explosions into her. This one is the least relevant because it wasn't solely Sajin's attack that defeated her. She was defeated by a combination of his single strike, plus her own explosives.
4) As Nodt is cut in multiple places by Byakuya's Shikai even while seemingly using Blut Vene to amplify his defenses. We don't get to see how well he'd do against Byakuya's Bankai normally because the next time Byakuya fights him, is after Byakuya recieved a power-up and trounced him with his Shikai. Still, if As Nodt's statistics are supposed to be equal to Byakuya's Bankai normally but he gets damaged by Byakuya's Shikai while at his most durable, then something is wrong.
5) We don't see Yhwach's performance against Yamamoto's Bankai. The only thing we do know is that Royd, who Yama mistook for Yhwach, was unable to fight back effectively against Yama and died easily.
6) This last point is regarding Chojiro's Bankai that was stolen by Driscol. Yama claimed that Driscol's usage of the Bankai is weaker than Chojiro's. Which makes sense since Chojiro's usage of it could permanently scar Yama in the past while Driscol's did not. When Driscol activated the Bankai, Shuhei was in awe of the spiritual pressure meaning you'd think that the Bankai being used is greater the Driscol's power is normally. So the conclusion of this is that Driscol normally is inferior to Chojiro's normal Bankai.
So that's a majority of cases where we can infer that these Sternritter at base are inferior to the Bankai that they stole.
My proposal is simply that we remove this justification from scaling from the three profiles and scale them more appropriately off of their feats such as; Yhwach easily defeating Shikai Yamamoto and being stronger than Gremmy, As Nodt handling Renji with ease, Cang Du defeating Rangiku Matsumoto, etc. Exact specifics can be discussed.
We can give them a separate rating for what they would be at with the Bankai that they have stolen. But their base statistics should not be assumed to be equal to the Bankai's statistics.
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They would still have to be relative to the Bankai they’re stealing via this statement.
Because Bankai aren’t just stat power ups, they’d need to to train to master the techniques associated with said Bankai.
This can be chalked up to them being taken highly off guard after being poisoned with Hollow reiatsu. Also the Shinigami temporarily hollowfied their Bankai and Hollowfication provides an amp.
As you said this doesn’t aid your point.
Just because you cut someone or get cut by someone doesn’t mean you aren’t relative. If that were the case Gerard wouldnt scale to Kenpachi because he got cut by Kenpachi. Being cut by someone =/= you don’t scale.
Royd has no bearing on Yhwach’s rating so this means nothing.
First, Yama got stronger over time. Second, Yama claiming it was weak could be him just belittling the Sternritter, I always interpreted it as him shouting out in rage. Shuhei being in awe does not mean the Bankai is above Driscol’s regular power at all, that’s head canon.
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That's not necessarily the case. Yhwach doesn't say he is relative to Yama's level of power. Just that he believes he alone is capable of controlling it.
Controlling a Bankai isn't based solely on the user's amount of AP, due to Cang Du's statement.
While it's possible, I'm inclined to go against that due to it being stated as a tiny bit of Hollow power, and their Bankai's are only Hollowified for a split-second.
It's not the most convincing part - but Bambi was still taken down in one blow while in her Vollstandig transformation. It was just helped that her own explosives were knocked into her too.
I don't mind As Nodt being rated as relative to Byakuya. It's his current justification that being due to the stolen Bankai that I disagree with.
Head canon? Sure, it's a degree of interpretation involved, I'll grant you. But that's just as much the case of assuming Yama is just belittling the Sternritter.
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Considering Yhwach and Yama are extremely relative via lore, I’m more inclined to believe Yhwach is relative to Yama’s power. Especially considering Yama couldn’t kill Yhwach in the past. To further support this Yhwach was capable of fighting Ichibe who’s > Yama.
It gave Toshiro a half hollow mask so I wouldn’t call it a “tiny amp”. But the point remains they had a hollow amp, so saying that these forms beating them disproves the relative statement from Yhwach is false.
She was beaten by humanification Sajin and was primarily beaten because she couldn’t harm him due to immortality. Again I say being cut by someone doesn’t make you not scale. She literally couldn’t block the attack because it’d regen through her attempt to block it. But Bambi being splattered by her own explosion + Sajin’s swing means she was taken out with an attack stronger than Sajin’s Bankai regardless.
His rating wouldn’t change and Yhwach’s statement is just a nice piece of support. So I don’t see the need to remove it.
Yeah the point being that last bit about Yama and Driscoll doesn’t aid either side in a substantial way and is thus a null point.
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The lore is useless here. All we know is that Yhwach witnessed Yama's Bankai while it was in a different state, and that Yhwach ended up being beaten so badly that he needed to be sealed away for centuries. We don't know why Yama could not kill Yhwach.
Either way, that fight in the past still wouldn't make present Yhwach eqaul to present Yama's Bankai.
And yes, Ichibe is > Yama. But that does not necessarily mean Ichibe > Bankai Yama in raw AP.
And it gave Soi-Fon zero Hollow mask. I'd call it a tiny amp, if there's any amp involved at all which there might not be. I still think it's good showing that they're not equals to the Bankai.
I think that there is a need to remove it.
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It would kinda have to or Yama could reiatsu neg Ichibe’s sword. Also, Yhwach’s statement that he can control Yama’s Bankai would indicate he scales regardless.
No it shows they aren’t equal to partially hollowfied Bankai which are above the regular Bankai. It’s an unquantifiable amp, but it’s an amp that means the Ritter lost to above Bankai characters, which negs the whole “they aren’t relative to Bankai” argument.
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Did we get a statement that Yama can't Reiatsu Neg Ichibe's sword?
My whole point is that simply controlling the Bankai does not mean that they scale.
Shinigami can control their own Bankai as well, but they're not relative to their Bankai while in base.
At best Yhwach should only be scaling to Yama's Bankai's AP when he is using Yama's Bankai.
I don't think they're amped. I can understand why you'd come to that conclusion, but Urahara's statement on how it works leads me to disagree.
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That’s not how hollowfication works. Adding hollow powers to a Shinigami or vice versa makes them stronger. Unless you’d like to disprove the entire Arrancar Arc, hollowfying amps ones stats.
Squad Zero > Gotei 13 so in a way yes we did get a statement.
Your evidence is Sternritter losing to Hollowfied Bankai, that isn’t enough to debunk. Hollowfied Bankai > Bankai.
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The way I see it, we have multiple reasons to doubt base Sternritter being considered equal to Bankai Captains:
1. As Damage said, Yhwach said he could control Yama's Bankai but that doesn't necessarily mean he's exactly equal to it in raw power.
2. Cang and BG9 got one shot by the Bankai they were supposed to be equal to in base.
3. The level of power Sternritter are capable of handling/controlling might be different than their base level of power. The reason I think this is because of how their Vollständig works.
Unlike Bankai and Resurrección, Vollständig doesn't release the full version of a Quincy's inner power but instead grants them power absorbed from the environment. It is essentially Letzt Stil but without the user losing their powers. The way Lezt Stil works is by absorbing a huge amount of Reishi from the environment at a rate beyond the Quincy's normal capabilities. And it's stated that they have to train to use it effectively. What this means is that the Quincy capable of using Vollständig are able to handle an influx of power which is superior to their base state, with the level of power of their Vollständig state representing the limit of that.
Going Vollständig and stealing a Bankai with a medallion are similar in that they obtain power from an outside source which the user then has to control and use. Sternritter who have stolen a Bankai have been stated to be unable to go Vollständig, which supports the idea that their power handling/controlling limit is reached.
So due to that, my stance is that base Sternritter shouldn't scale to being equal to the Bankai they stole, but their Vollständig states scaling to it makes more sense for aforementioned reasons.
4. If the Sternritter who stole a Bankai were equal to the Bankai even in base, it doesn't make any logical sense for them to steal it when they can just go Vollständig and overpower the Bankai wielding captain.
For example, if Shikai Byakuya at the time of the first invasion was a 1 in power and As Nodt was a 5, it's strange for him to be cut by Byakuya even when As was stated by Mask to have activated Blut Vene. Furthermore, if Byakuya goes Bankai and becomes a 5 in power (equal to As), then all As has to do is just go Vollständig, receive an amp which should get its own CRT, and overpower Byakuya.
My point is, a Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai, devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai, as the Sternritter would be able to easily overpower the Bankai captain by going Vollständig.
1. As Damage said, Yhwach said he could control Yama's Bankai but that doesn't necessarily mean he's exactly equal to it in raw power.
2. Cang and BG9 got one shot by the Bankai they were supposed to be equal to in base.
3. The level of power Sternritter are capable of handling/controlling might be different than their base level of power. The reason I think this is because of how their Vollständig works.
Unlike Bankai and Resurrección, Vollständig doesn't release the full version of a Quincy's inner power but instead grants them power absorbed from the environment. It is essentially Letzt Stil but without the user losing their powers. The way Lezt Stil works is by absorbing a huge amount of Reishi from the environment at a rate beyond the Quincy's normal capabilities. And it's stated that they have to train to use it effectively. What this means is that the Quincy capable of using Vollständig are able to handle an influx of power which is superior to their base state, with the level of power of their Vollständig state representing the limit of that.
Going Vollständig and stealing a Bankai with a medallion are similar in that they obtain power from an outside source which the user then has to control and use. Sternritter who have stolen a Bankai have been stated to be unable to go Vollständig, which supports the idea that their power handling/controlling limit is reached.
So due to that, my stance is that base Sternritter shouldn't scale to being equal to the Bankai they stole, but their Vollständig states scaling to it makes more sense for aforementioned reasons.
4. If the Sternritter who stole a Bankai were equal to the Bankai even in base, it doesn't make any logical sense for them to steal it when they can just go Vollständig and overpower the Bankai wielding captain.
For example, if Shikai Byakuya at the time of the first invasion was a 1 in power and As Nodt was a 5, it's strange for him to be cut by Byakuya even when As was stated by Mask to have activated Blut Vene. Furthermore, if Byakuya goes Bankai and becomes a 5 in power (equal to As), then all As has to do is just go Vollständig, receive an amp which should get its own CRT, and overpower Byakuya.
My point is, a Sternritter in base needing to be equal to a Bankai captain in order to steal the Bankai, devaluates the entire point of stealing Bankai, as the Sternritter would be able to easily overpower the Bankai captain by going Vollständig.
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This is one of the more relevant points to the issue which I stated up above.
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Shinigami scale to their own Bankai tho...
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- #115
Only when they're using the Bankai.
Which is what I'm proposing we do for the Sternritter with stolen Bankai as well.
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Iirc Yhwach said he could handle Yama’s immense power which 100% implies you need to be capable of handling said Bankai you’re stealing.
No they got beaten by Hollowfied Bankai. Hollowfied Bankai > regular Bankai, because Hollowfication amps stats.
The end of this point becomes way too speculative about the influx argument.
You know that just because you cut someone doesn’t mean said person you cut cannot scale to you. People can cut people relative to them. We don’t accept Byakuya’s Bankai as an AP amp just that it has more petals.
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That’s not the implication with the Ritter and Yhwach’s statement.
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As far as I can tell, that is the implication.
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Another thing we also need to see is the scale of the novel for the arc of war, and it is said that they are weaker there.
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The crux of your point was the Ritter are weaker than the Bankai but I’ve debunked that with the fact that the Bankai were Hollowfied.
To further support the narrative of my point, early in the arc the Sternritter are revered as Captain+ level fighters.
Do you have any other points to indicate the Ritter are weaker than the Bankai?
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