Stardust Crusaders Speed Upgrade..

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21737

This calculation now puts Silver Chariot at 365C for speed in terms of reactions etc. I don't know why this removed from Pol's page.

Scales to...

Avdol,Jotaro,Kakyoin,DIO,Vanilla Ice and prob more.

 

[Thebluedash]

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21737
This calculation now puts Silver Chariot at 365C for speed in terms of reactions etc. I don't know why this removed from Pol's page.

Scales to...

Avdol,Jotaro,Kakyoin,DIO,Vanilla Ice and prob more.

Should be fine seeing as the OBD peeps accepted it.

 

[Promestein]

It was removed because you added it without making a thread and checking with the calc group and such. You can't just add random significant upgrades without discussing it prior.

Regardless, looks fine to me, and if OBD accepted it, it probably should be.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

It was removed because you added it without making a thread and checking with the calc group and such. You can't just add random significant upgrades without discussing it prior.
Regardless, looks fine to me, and if OBD accepted it, it probably should be.

When Accumulative Damage was previously on DIO and Jotaros page the hanged man calc was used to be able to see how many punches can be thrown in a second.

So I assumed members pre emptively knew and so I added it. Apologies if they did not know.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@A-M-M: You should have made a thread about it. Cause upgrading or downgrading characters without making a thread doens't work here. That and some people can be banned for that, man.

But let me go see the OBD myself to see if they have Star Platinum, Silver Chariot, and The World at MFTL. If they do, then i suppose it wouldn't hurt to upgrade them at that level.

 

[Gabriel_00]

If Silver Chariot is 365 times faster than the hanged man, why exactly kakyoin needed to toss the coin?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Gabriel 00: IDEK, man. That and it was part of a calc that was done on Narutoforums.

Also, i've seen the OBD versions of Jotaro and DIO and their stands speed rated as FTL there. There's no FTL+ speed that we use for them here let alon MFTL. There was some sort of thread about it last year but only the FTL+ calc was accepted here.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

If Silver Chariot is 365 times faster than the hanged man, why exactly kakyoin needed to toss the coin?

The Hanged Man works by going into any reflective surface and then attacks people present in said reflections.

However when you destroy/remove a reflection Hanged Man is forced to leave it and move into another reflection. At the speed of light.

Kakyoin and Polnareff were cornered by poor people whose eyes were being used by The Hanged man as a reflective surface to deal damage to them. Kakyoin threw the coin into the air as a distraction to make everyone look at the coin which was reflective. Polneraff then threw sand into the eyes of the person who had Hanged Man inside them.

Hanged Man had no choice but to go into the coin that Kakyoin tossed into the air. However before Hanged Man could even reach the coin Silver Chariot had sliced Hanged Man in half.

So the speed of light (Hanged Man) is travelling a short distance which is insanely fast. And Silver Chariot still manages to intercept it.

Hoped that helped.

 

[Gabriel_00]

I know the context, they throw the coin because that way there's only one way the Hanged man could go, but if you are 365 times faster than your oponent you can play monopoly while he move thus, they shouldn't need the coin

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

@Gabriel 00: IDEK, man. That and it was part of a calc that was done on Narutoforums.
Also, i've seen the OBD versions of Jotaro and DIO and their stands speed rated as FTL there. There's no FTL+ speed that we use for them here let alon MFTL. There was some sort of thread about it last year but only the FTL+ calc was accepted here.

Jotaro and DIO pages on the OBD seem fairly outdated. They still have city block and country accum time stop damage. If you're referring to another page then please show me.

Also how is this feat not accepted? Chaos Theory himself only commented on wether 365C was mftl or not. Which leads me to believe he found no errors within it. However it may be because OBD page is outdated or something. Who knows.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I know the context, they throw the coin because that way there's only one way the Hanged man could go, but if you are 365 times faster than your oponent you can play monopoly while he move thus, they shouldn't need the coin

They needed the coin because Polnareff stabbing out the eyes of civillians wont be a heroic thing to do.. Also Polnareff wanted revange against Hanged Man badly so it makes sense he would kill him asap rather than wait.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Gabriel 00: IDEK, man. That and it was part of a calc that was done on Narutoforums.
Also, i've seen the OBD versions of Jotaro and DIO and their stands speed rated as FTL there. There's no FTL+ speed that we use for them here let alon MFTL. There was some sort of thread about it last year but only the FTL+ calc was accepted here.

Jotaro and DIO pages on the OBD seem fairly outdated. They still have city block and country accum time stop damage. If you're referring to another page then please show me.
Also how is this feat not accepted? Chaos Theory himself only commented on wether 365C was mftl or not. Which leads me to believe he found no errors within it. However it may be because OBD page is outdated or something. Who knows.

Well the OBD, from what i presume, isn't always as editity, as sites like VS Battles and other sites like this. That and i heard that it's normally closed or something.

Someone had made a thread about it and even asked a former calc member of ours and the guy, whose a really good one on NF btw, chose the FTL+ one but the MFTL was like....meh.

I presume that the OBD only used FTL due to what the manga stated about Star Platinum's speed was from Part 6. So it could be outdated, perhaps.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

@Gabriel 00: IDEK, man. That and it was part of a calc that was done on Narutoforums.
Also, i've seen the OBD versions of Jotaro and DIO and their stands speed rated as FTL there. There's no FTL+ speed that we use for them here let alon MFTL. There was some sort of thread about it last year but only the FTL+ calc was accepted here.

Jotaro and DIO pages on the OBD seem fairly outdated. They still have city block and country accum time stop damage. If you're referring to another page then please show me.
Also how is this feat not accepted? Chaos Theory himself only commented on wether 365C was mftl or not. Which leads me to believe he found no errors within it. However it may be because OBD page is outdated or something. Who knows.

Well the OBD, from what i presume, isn't always as editity, as sites like VS Battles and other sites like this. That and i heard that it's normally closed or something.
Someone had made a thread about it and even asked a former calc member of ours and the guy, whose a really good one on NF btw, chose the FTL+ one but the MFTL was like....meh.

I presume that the OBD only used FTL due to what the manga stated about Star Platinum's speed was from Part 6. So it could be outdated, perhaps.

So it seems the deciding factor is the former calc member I take it. Did he properly give out a more indeph explanation on why he picked the FTL+ one over the MFTL one?

Because people here in this thread and that NF one seem to agree with the results (inc Chaos Theory who is an expert at making calcs) And to be fair I would rather take there word over it..

 

[Gabriel_00]

I know the context, they throw the coin because that way there's only one way the Hanged man could go, but if you are 365 times faster than your oponent you can play monopoly while he move thus, they shouldn't need the coin

They needed the coin because Polnareff stabbing out the eyes of civillians wont be a heroic thing to do.. Also Polnareff wanted revange against Hanged Man badly so it makes sense he would kill him asap rather than wait.

Polnareff could simply cut him while he was traveling between the eyes.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I know the context, they throw the coin because that way there's only one way the Hanged man could go, but if you are 365 times faster than your oponent you can play monopoly while he move thus, they shouldn't need the coin

They needed the coin because Polnareff stabbing out the eyes of civillians wont be a heroic thing to do.. Also Polnareff wanted revange against Hanged Man badly so it makes sense he would kill him asap rather than wait.

Polnareff could simply cut him while he was traveling between the eyes.

Polnareff had no idea Hanged Man's plan was to use the civillians as bait. Plus nobody accounts for PIS here sooooo.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I forgot since it was a long while and that was like Last year.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I forgot since it was a long while and that was like Last year.

Hmm. Lets wait for more input on this MFTL feat then.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Endless Mike seems to think that the calculation is fine. Since this is about a pretty significant upgrade, you can ask the calculation group and Alakabamm for input.

 

[Tivanenk]

First, I'm not quite sure that the end of that trail of "light" is where the Hanged Man is located in the calc. And even if it is, we can chalk it up due to PIS and the author disregarding proportions. In the story itself, it's clearly stated that Polnareff couldn't even see the Hanged Man moving and they needed to know the path through which he would take to cut him. If Silver Chariot was hundreds of times faster than the Hanged Man, this wouldn't have provided a difficulty.

 

[Antvasima]

That would be a major problem for accepting this. It is not just the calculation that has to be mathematically accurate. The premise has to coherently work as well.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

First, I'm not quite sure that the end of that trail of "light" is where the Hanged Man is located in the calc. And even if it is, we can chalk it up due to PIS and the author disregarding proportions. In the story itself, it's clearly stated that Polnareff couldn't even see the Hanged Man moving and they needed to know the path through which he would take to cut him. If Silver Chariot was hundreds of times faster than the Hanged Man, this wouldn't have provided a difficulty.

So the entire premise is false?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

First, I'm not quite sure that the end of that trail of "light" is where the Hanged Man is located in the calc. And even if it is, we can chalk it up due to PIS and the author disregarding proportions. In the story itself, it's clearly stated that Polnareff couldn't even see the Hanged Man moving and they needed to know the path through which he would take to cut him. If Silver Chariot was hundreds of times faster than the Hanged Man, this wouldn't have provided a difficulty.

First point. The trail of light is exactly where Hanged Man is supposed to be. As the trail of light is represented to be him in various points of the manga and even anime.

Also using Araki's statement as a way to determine the validity of feats wont end very well at all. If we do go with the presumption that Polnareff cannot react to light (Seeing as that what Hanged Man is) then Polnareffs speed rating of A (Which implies its a FTL stand via wog and scaling from SP) is a blatent contradiction. Also Polnareff's feat where he attacks energy beams from the sun stand which gave him FTL+ speed would also be a contradiction.

So using statements for stands is already a recipie for disaster due to the huge amount of contradictions present within them.

So using feats is the best way to determine the speed of Silver Chariot.

 

[Tivanenk]

First, I'm not quite sure that the end of that trail of "light" is where the Hanged Man is located in the calc. And even if it is, we can chalk it up due to PIS and the author disregarding proportions. In the story itself, it's clearly stated that Polnareff couldn't even see the Hanged Man moving and they needed to know the path through which he would take to cut him. If Silver Chariot was hundreds of times faster than the Hanged Man, this wouldn't have provided a difficulty.

First point. The trail of light is exactly where Hanged Man is supposed to be. As the trail of light is represented to be him in various points of the manga and even anime.
Also using Araki's statement as a way to determine the validity of feats wont end very well at all. If we do go with the presumption that Polnareff cannot react to light (Seeing as that what Hanged Man is) then Polnareffs speed rating of A (Which implies its a FTL stand via wog and scaling from SP) is a blatent contradiction. Also Polnareff's feat where he attacks energy beams from the sun stand which gave him FTL+ speed would also be a contradiction.

So using statements for stands is already a recipie for disaster due to the huge amount of contradictions present within them.

So using feats is the best way to determine the speed of Silver Chariot.

Polnareff couldn't see the Hanged Man moving simply because he didn't know the direction he took during his movements. Polnareff being FTL is not a problem in this case. However, MFTL is a huge problem because to Polnareff, he could drink juice while watching the Hanged Man be suspended in animation. And that's the problem with giving Polnareff MFTL.

By the way, anyone notice that the Hanged Man also has a speed grade of A yet doesn't move at FTL speeds? I do accept FTL for Silver Chariot, but nothing more than that because it would blatantly contradict the story itself.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

First, I'm not quite sure that the end of that trail of "light" is where the Hanged Man is located in the calc. And even if it is, we can chalk it up due to PIS and the author disregarding proportions. In the story itself, it's clearly stated that Polnareff couldn't even see the Hanged Man moving and they needed to know the path through which he would take to cut him. If Silver Chariot was hundreds of times faster than the Hanged Man, this wouldn't have provided a difficulty.

First point. The trail of light is exactly where Hanged Man is supposed to be. As the trail of light is represented to be him in various points of the manga and even anime.
Also using Araki's statement as a way to determine the validity of feats wont end very well at all. If we do go with the presumption that Polnareff cannot react to light (Seeing as that what Hanged Man is) then Polnareffs speed rating of A (Which implies its a FTL stand via wog and scaling from SP) is a blatent contradiction. Also Polnareff's feat where he attacks energy beams from the sun stand which gave him FTL+ speed would also be a contradiction.

So using statements for stands is already a recipie for disaster due to the huge amount of contradictions present within them.

So using feats is the best way to determine the speed of Silver Chariot.

Polnareff couldn't see the Hanged Man moving simply because he didn't know the direction he took during his movements. Polnareff being FTL is not a problem in this case. However, MFTL is a huge problem because to Polnareff, he could drink juice while watching the Hanged Man be suspended in animation. And that's the problem with giving Polnareff MFTL.
By the way, anyone notice that the Hanged Man also has a speed grade of A yet doesn't move at FTL speeds? I do accept FTL for Silver Chariot, but nothing more than that because it would blatantly contradict the story itself.

That makes no sense.

You have no problems with Polnareff being 76C correct? According to your logic Polnareff would still be able to see Hanged Man suspended in animation... Most of that stuff you're talking about is just PIS.

The calc itself was based around Silver Chariot intercepting Hanged Man (SOL) before he could even enter the coin which was he was millimetres away from it.

And of course Polnareff had no idea where HM would go because there was a crap ton of people in that crowd.

Also how does Polnareff being MFTL contradict the story at all? You're just saying statements which contradict Polnareff's stats and feats. And you saying he did not know his direction can just be shoved off as PIS.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

ok wait, so let me get this straight the calc is coherent

but polnaref coudlnt see hanged man moving?

i mean the calc looks ok, but i do not know the premise behind the feat and the scaling at this point ...

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

ok wait, so let me get this straight the calc is coherent
but polnaref coudlnt see hanged man moving?

i mean the calc looks ok, but i do not know the premise behind the feat and the scaling at this point ...

The whole premise is this.

Before Hanged Man could even enter the coin (Was millimeteres away from it) Silver Chariot was sucessfull in striking him.

 

[Tivanenk]

ok wait, so let me get this straight the calc is coherent
but polnaref coudlnt see hanged man moving?

i mean the calc looks ok, but i do not know the premise behind the feat and the scaling at this point ...

Correct, Polnareff couldn't see the Hanged Man moving.

Also, I said I don't have a problem with Polnareff being FTL. I'm not sure which calc you're referring to that makes him 76C, but if it's the one I'm thinking of, then there are like at least 2 problems I have with it. When I state FTL, I mean something like 1.5C

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

ok wait, so let me get this straight the calc is coherent
but polnaref coudlnt see hanged man moving?

i mean the calc looks ok, but i do not know the premise behind the feat and the scaling at this point ...

Correct, Polnareff couldn't see the Hanged Man moving.
Also, I said I don't have a problem with Polnareff being FTL. I'm not sure which calc you're referring to that makes him 76C, but if it's the one I'm thinking of, then there are like at least 2 problems I have with it. When I state FTL, I mean something like 1.5C

As I said Polnareff not being able to see HM flat out contradicts other feats he has performed in the series such as 76C feat we have on his profile atm,and this 1.5 FTL feat you have in your mind. Therefore it can be simple PIS.

Knowing his trajectory does not change the fact that Polnareff still intercepted Hanged Man when he was milimetres away from the coin which gives him MFTL speeds.

 

[Tivanenk]

You're saying that Polnareff can move thousands of times faster than he can react?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

tbh overall, the calc is ok, and apparently polnaref has regularly been much faster than light

so i think this upgrade is okay

 

[Tivanenk]

All that's left for me to say: use your brain, use your common sense, and don't take calcs for granted.

 

[Antvasima]

I am also uncertain about this. Calculations are not everything. The premise has to make sense as well.

 

[RavenSupreme]

tbh overall, the calc is ok, and apparently polnaref has regularly been much faster than light
so i think this upgrade is okay

if thats the case (links, if possible) the entire HM scene could in fact be PIS for dramatic purpose.

mathematically correct calc which gets contradicted by the story -> it should not be supported (lets be real, we all can mathematically inflate character to unknown heights if we truly want to)

mathematically correct calc which gets somehow confirmed via showings in different scenarios and just gives a bad taste in a particular situation - we can support it due to possible PIS (lets remember yusuke urameshi being a MHS character but failing to outrun a mere truck)

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I am also uncertain about this. Calculations are not everything. The premise has to make sense as well.

I have explained the premise to TLT and he found it makes sense. But to say one more time.

The whole premise of the calculation was " How fast did Silver Chariot had to be to catch the Hanged Man millimeteres away from the coin?" And the answer found was 365C.

The problems people had are. Polnareff was not able to react to Hanged Man previously and stated he could not see him also. And Polnareff already knew the trajectory (direction) Hanged Man was going therefore this speed is invalid.

Now the answer to the first problem is this.

Polnareff throughout Part 3 has showcased FTL feats consistently such as the Sun Calc we use now and the 1.5C calc Tiva was talking about. Now it makes no sense to me how someone of Polnareff's caliber was unable in tracking down someone who was only moving SOL when he has showcased feats of 76C. It then adds more confusion when you realise Silver Chariots speed rank of A means it has to be faster than light. So the statement of Polnareff being unable to track down Hanged Man is pure PIS.


This is my response to the second problem.

Polnareff already knowing the direction of Hanged Man means absolutely nothing. It does not change the fact that Silver Chariot managed to catch up to Hanged Man's speed and slice it when it was incredibly close towards the coin meaning Silver Chariot is still able to move in short bursts of 365C and react to those speeds also full stop.

This should clear things up.

Also the whole " Polnareff can move faster than he can react" argument only exists if you take Polnareff's statements as facts. However due to the contradictions and how much PIS is present within it the whole argument crumbles!

 

[Tivanenk]

Guys, guys, guys. Polnareff can't be that fast. Listen, guys, that entire "mini-arc" lasted 12 CHAPTERS! Polnareff had MANY opportunities to tag the Hanged Man during that arc. He only managed to do it twice and both of those were when he knew the trajectory of travel that the Hanged Man was taking. He had more than dozen opportunities to finish Hanged Man off, but he didn't. This indicates that the speed difference between the two isn't large at all, maximum a speed difference of about 1.5x. Unless you want to discard an ENTIRE arc based on the premise of PIS on two feats that Polnareff performed (reflecting the sun beams and this one), then I cry shame on you, because Polnareff was clearly not made out to be that fast in the Hanged Man arc.

 

[Tivanenk]

Also, the Sun has a rank E in speed, so I'm not sure that those beams of light are actual light either.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Guys, guys, guys. Polnareff can't be that fast. Listen, guys, that entire "mini-arc" lasted 12 CHAPTERS! Polnareff had MANY opportunities to tag the Hanged Man during that arc. He only managed to do it twice and both of those were when he knew the trajectory of travel that the Hanged Man was taking. He had more than dozen opportunities to finish Hanged Man off, but he didn't. This indicates that the speed difference between the two isn't large at all, maximum a speed difference of about 1.5x. Unless you want to discard an ENTIRE arc based on the premise of PIS on two feats that Polnareff performed (reflecting the sun beams and this one), then I cry shame on you, because Polnareff was clearly not made out to be that fast in the Hanged Man arc.

As I said before

"Polnareff throughout Part 3 has showcased FTL feats consistently such as the Sun Calc we use now and the 1.5C calc Tiva was talking about. Now it makes no sense to me how someone of Polnareff's caliber was unable in tracking down someone who was only moving SOL when he has showcased feats of 76C. It then adds more confusion when you realise Silver Chariots speed rank of A means it has to be faster than light. So the statement of Polnareff being unable to track down Hanged Man is pure PIS."

Polnareff not tagging Hanged Man previously was due to PIS due to other feats Polnareff has showed off which indicate his speed would be enough to catch out Hanged Ma

And guess what? Knowing trajectory is meaningless. Polnareff was still able to tag Hanged Man in the end which does not change the fact he is 365C in reactions/short bursts.

If knowing the trajectory instantly disproves a calc than many bullet timers would only be peak human in reaction speeds..

I feel as if I am repeating myself and therefore demand you come up with a argument which is not based around PIS statements and trajectory nonsense.

 

[Tivanenk]

Knowing the trajectory means that the user can instantly react and go perform an action to stop it, instead of looking for it first. This only helps when there is a NEGLIGIBLE speed difference (a.k.a. the speed difference between two objects is minimal). If Polnareff was indeed 365C, he would have killed the Hanged Man the first time he met him and wouldn't have to weep in front of Abdul's (presumed) dead corpse.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Knowing the trajectory means that the user can instantly react and go perform an action to stop it, instead of looking for it first. This only helps when there is a NEGLIGIBLE speed difference (a.k.a. the speed difference between two objects is minimal). If Polnareff was indeed 365C, he would have killed the Hanged Man the first time he met him and wouldn't have to weep in front of Abdul's (presumed) dead corpse.

Polnareff had no idea how the stand worked so Avdol's "death" was impossible to prevent.

And Polnareff is indeed 365C because he managed to intercept Hanged Man millemetres away from the coin... Where is your argument going? Are you saying its not trajectory now?

 

[RavenSupreme]

if i know the trajectory of a gunshot aiming towards me i still can not execute an action to stop it.

however can someone link me the fight in question?