Star Level Touhou

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Just dug up some things about the new Touhou game, LoLK.

Basically, Chang'e husband shot down the sun, as he did in the original mythos.

"She too is a god who hates Chang'e.

Because, you see, Chang'e's husband was the person who shot down the sun (ie. Apollo). In the first place, Hell would be unable to exist without the sun. Without strong light, the darkness of Hell would weaken too." Hecatia's Profile, in LoLK

Well at least we knows that it was completely destroyed, not just anything else. I have seen some places mentioning multiples suns, but not only does this seems to only happen in the original mythos, he only took out said suns one by one, so it's just Star either way.

This is also in line with another, older Star Level feat, with Yatagarasu's power apparently powering the sun. Given that Utsuho apparently made Yata's power her own, it is possibly that she scales to him, not sure.

According to Reisen's Good ending, Junko defeated and killed said person, and it was before she went all "purify myself into being pure hate incarnated" thing. So, Junko would most likely be Star Level, because Powerscaling. Since Hecatia seems somewhat on part with her and both are allies, she should be comparable too.

Although it is more shaky, given that all her attempts at attacking the Moon directlly has failed, and the Watatsuki Sister being in charge of the Moon's defense (along with the whole "lol mary sue above every gensokyo gals" thingy) Would probably means these two are above, or at least comparable to Junko (And probably comparable to Yatagarasu, who is the avatar of a Moon Goddess there).

We can go even further down the Rabbit's hole, if we scales Eirin to the sisters, as she is their masters, and is the one that thaught them everything (Also with the fact that they still to this day hold her in high regard and with Eirin being the co-founder of the Moon).

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

(This is a bump)

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Massive powerscaling gonna be involved, mostly on the lunarian side. Eirin was always someone I found to be powerful and wise for being a co-founder of a civilization. Maybe comparable to Yukari

That said agree with most of your points. Now I do wonder if that would mean Eirin is above Yorihime and Toyohime or maybe they just hold her in high regard for being a teacher? That would mean that both those sisters are above star level though and Yukari would be limited around that area maybe?

And can't wait for Mima to show up and beat everyone

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Considering Yukari herself is below the sisters, pretty sure Eirin would actually be above Yukari, in term of sheer DC at least.

From what I see, this feat doesn't scales to anyone not related to the Lunarian, which means it is limited to the God Tier. The best it can do is maybe makes Marisa's planet feat no longer an Outlier.

That is unless we accept Utsuho having similar power to Yatagrasu's, but even then, in the original mythos Chang'e husband shot down multiples suns, and each of these suns were actually a Yatagarasu. So even if Utsuho really is Star Level, the Lunarians would probably still be above her (And Yukari).

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I still think there's a possibility that Yukari purposely faked her defeat seeing how she was letting Yuyuko perform a 'prank' but alright. Now that makes me wonder how strong Eirin with prep time is, and if the Yama would scale well to the Watatsuki sisters since she can be interpreted as not from Gensokyo. Makes me wonder if Shinki can compare to.

I mean strict lunarian high tiers mostly acutally, my bad on not being specific. And Planetary Marisa would be lovely

So the Watatsuki sisters are above moon level at the lowest then huh if we go by that. But even then without that comparison Utsuho would be at least at her highest moon level

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Even if it is possibly, there isn't much in canon hinting that Yukari is on her level, heck, there is a legit WoG saying that she and the others gals are below the sisters.

Even though Eiki is strong, there isn't nothing much hinting to her power. She is just very strong. Seems the same problem with Yuuka and Flandre, to some extent. Shink is in a completely different canon and level of power compared to canon Touhou, seriously Canon has Relat to FTL and City to Star feats, while PC-98 has Star Level to Universal+ with Light Speed to MFTL+ stuff. She's a bit out of anyone's league, but she probably still loses to their hax like Kaguya.

Planet Marisa would change so much things. Reimu scaling to her, Flandre and Utsuho probably scaling to it too. Yukari being stronger than her, then to Suika, and to Yuugi and possibly Kasen. Sumeirko scaling to Yukari somewhat too. Patchouli could possibly scale to Marisa. Then the two sisters being scaled off that too, and thus possibly Eirin.

And the peeps are already at the level you mentioned.

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

I support this.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Gotcha. Just to make sure though, didn't she create Gensokyo? Would that be a good buff on the sisters too for easily beating someone like her?

Wasn't Eiki stated to be unmatched by both Yukari and Reimu?

Oh? How does she exactly lose to Kaguya?

That's a massive buff on them all then. That said isn't current Marisa country? And Alice and Patchy scales to her well too? Alice being more focused on versatility and AP and not DC I mean.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yukari only helped creating it, even then it was stated she could destroy it easily, but Gensokyo is only Island sized Approx, that's not really impressive.

Lies. Well, mostly mistranslation. It could be interpreted as either that, or that they can't argue with her. The latter seems more likely and in line with things.

Becuase Kaguya can't exactly die anymore, then hax time Shinki to death.

I don't know for Alice, Patchy is more likely. And yes Marisa is country right now because reasons, even though I believe she would be around Moon due to Okuu.

 

[DontTalk]

About Junko: I have to say I can spontanously not find the scene were it was said that she defeated Chang'e's husband. Could you link it to me or something? If it is made clear star level for junko could be considered.

That aside I wouldn´t scale Yata to Utsuho. It is like the difference between the shrine maiden that wields the power of a god and the god itself. In the end one would think the god is still more powerful, right?

For Hecatia to be equal we would still need reasons that imply that.

About the Watatsuki Sisters: I wonder if Junko counts as a resident of gensokyo in the end. Well for defending the moon, given that spellcard rules kinda also apply on the moon I would be sceptical about that kind of powerscaling.

And scaling eiren to the sisters is something I don´t think is all that well proven.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Translation of Reisen's ending https://thpatch.net/wiki/Th15/Reisen's_Endings/e

Pretty sure the Utsuho/Yatagarasu link is different from that. Utsuho kinda ate and absorbed (at least a part of) Yatagarsu, unlike Shrine Maidens Utsuho has her God's power constantly in her, being described as a Shrine Branch of sort. It even says Yata's power has become hers. And this wiki Seems to treat Sanae's summons of her Goddess as having the same AP as them, and Utsuho constantly uses this power.

Well appart from the Stage order, which is BS, the fact that they seems to works together to fight the Lunarian, people who do not uses the Spell Card rule, I guess it would make sense for them to be similar in power.

Pretty the Moon doesn't uses the SP Rule, based on the fact that Yorhime needed to learn it to fight Reimu, and with people killing each others there, unlike Gensokyo.

Considering Eirin is the Oldest Moon people, pretty much a Goddess, teached both of the sisters, and is much stronger than another Lunar Princess, I say it wouldn't be that much of a stretch.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

(Bumping his head on the thread)

 

[DontTalk]

(Bumping his head on the thread)

Doesn´t that hurt?


To be honest I kinda forgot that this thread existet.

About Junko: Ok, Star level Junko is fine

About Utsuho: Well, it was said that some people would be better in using the powers than other (the more stupid one is the better of a vessel). So I would be dubious about saying that utsuho is as powerful as the original.

Symposium of Post-mysticism also hints at Yatagarasu being divided upon entering her.

About Hecatia: Well, that is a rather weak resoning really. It is not like I would deny it when asked if it were possible, but in the end it is just too much speculation.

About the Watatsuki Sisters: The moon rabbits and Sagume Kishin and also Junko seemed to follow them, tough? Well, given that the fight was likely before silent sinner in blue it would stand to reason to believe that it was before the spellcard rules were inventet on the moon.

"And when she attacked the Lunar Capital, we tricked her in a contest of wits." - Eirin in Reisens ending.

Wouldn´t that however suggest that they didn´t fight her head on actually?

About Eirin: Well, the discpiles overshadow the masters one day, don´t they? And was it ever suggested that she was teaching them how to fight? Eirin is a genius, a brilliant medic and a powerful magician, but did she ever even focus on destruction?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What makes Gensokyo Island Sized? Wasn't that it's size when it existed on Earth? From my understanding after it was transported to it's own reality, it became far larger. Hell, there are plenty of Touhou characters of cultures far different than japanese folklore, and if I'm not mistaken, in Touhou 13 a character references Jesus Christ and other lands far beyond the oceans.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Nah it's fine, I can survive.

IIRC it was said that she was kinda the best at doing it, since she is really dumb. And Again, when a Shrine Maiden uses the power of a god, they uses apparently the DC and all of said Gods. And tbh, it's either that Okuu took the power of a Dead god, in which case I doubt she would have taken only a part of it, or it is of the remaing alive Crow, in which case she can still help keep the Sun alive. To me, it looks like Utsuho is constantly borrowing the Power of the Crow, possibly against its will.

Mmh, true.

Well tbh The sisters did it too, there is always a weird case of people outside Gensokyo using the Spell Card Rule when fighting Gensokyo peeps. Could be some sort of treatey with Gensokyo of not using actual forces and stuff. Also, the Moon doesn't logically has to uses the Spell Card Rule when fighting Junko and stuff, there is no banlance to protect, and their lives are at real danger here.

Bleh, I saw that quote somewhere. It could be her hax they feared instead, as herself had to resorts to Dirty play to get rid of them.

Well, it is a fact that Eirin do have powerful and impressive spells, so it's not true that she is only a genius, she do have power. And she IS stronger than another Lunarian Princess by apparently quite a lot, so there's that.

@Matt

We don't have any canon size for Gensokyo, but since it can countain a mountain and several things like a big lake and a village, Island Sized seems like the best solution. And pretty sure the thing about Jesus is just refering our real world locations, not because there is actual christian there. Even if it became bigger, we don't know by what amounts, Also I doubt it is much larger than a Country, given that most events that happens are treated as being local instead of how one would treat a country.

 

[DontTalk]

About utsuho: The best, but that doesn´t mean loss free conversion. In the first place was Yatagarasu even said to be the creator of the sun? It was said that it uses the power of the sun, but that would only be continental.


The sisters: I would go for possibly Star-level here. It wasn´t a head on fight as far as I understand, so powerscaling doesn´t work that well. Also we can not have the racist sisters be Touhous god tiers forever, right?


About eirin: You can note down possibly Star level instead of possibly higher and write it to the rest of the reasons I guess.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It wasn't said to have created the Sun, but its power powers the Sun, as it keep it aflamme. Also they do Sun Spots, which would be like Planet Level I guess.

Well their point is sadly to be God Tier so I don't see them losing that title unless ZUN decide to end the series with Reimu defeating the Moon People or something.

Bleh, Eirin got Star Level finally.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, powering the sun is continent level. Sun spots I spontanously don´t know, but I doubt planet level.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well they ARE Planet sized, the biggest Sun Spots are. Also, in the original myths, when Yatagarus dies, the sun with it dies too, wouldn't that be a bit higher than Multi Continent?

 

[DontTalk]

Now that you mention it utsuhos feat it only Multi-continent level now. I didn´t remember that there was a revision of the stats there. I should probably change them to fit.

The original myth is hardly usabable as an argument.

About sunspots: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?bt=168968

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Aw sh**. Oh well. Still works for Junko. Shall I upgrade them?

 

[DontTalk]

Go ahead

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Iirc there was maps of Gensokyo before

And it wouldn't be fair to scale Marisa off of Utsuho since it was a danmaku fight right?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No canon maps has ever been shown, from what I know.

And yeah, unless statement, we can't scale in Touhou.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Just recalled, and kinda bumping this thread too

Didn't both Yukari and Marisa have some spell cards that represent some celestial bodies?

With Marisa utilizing

Ú¡öþ®║ÒÇîÒéóÒé╣ÒâåÒâ¡ÒéñÒâëÒâÖÒâ½ÒâêÒÇì Magic Space "Asteroid Belt"

Asteroid belt that can put two large planets away.

With the power level of some I think that's a possibility for Marisa. And secondly,

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Scarlet_Weather_Rhapsody/Spell_Cards/Yukari_Yakumo

Universe of Matter and Antimatter

Wouldn't summoning dark matter be a strong feat? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm really here to just ask about these two too

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Marisa's feat was placed as Outlier, as it was the strongest feat at that time. It would make more sense now that Star Level God Tier but eh.

About Anti-Matter, I don't know how much energy and stuff it produces, so I wouldn't know. Even then it's by hax she does this, by importing Antimatter into our matter-filled world.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I just did a calc, and a human sized amount of Anti Matter would only be Mountain. I don't know how much Yukari used but it can't be that much higher.

EDIT: Did yet another calc. Even if she linked Earth's worth of Anti-Matter, it would only be Small Star so eh. Also did another Calc, if Suika's "black holes" are treated as real ones that would make it Small Star too but again, doubtful.

 

[Drac32Drac]

There's no reference to the scale, but I'm referencing a translation of a LoLK (in other words, WOG) interview which says "Hecatia is a being beyond Gensokyo and Lunar Capital, of course is greater than Eiki."

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So, if I understand this broken english, this makes Hecatia more powerful than both the Lunar Capital and Gensokyo? Holy hell, we have our new 2hu God Tier.

 

[Yamatohime]

Actually only by her official profile we can see that she more like one of the Ten Kings.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The Ten Kings...? Care to elaborate?

Also, direct quote from Wiki translation

"Since she's an enemy that doesn't play by the rules, you can't even call it a proper match. It's just playing around. She's completely past the level of anyone in Gensokyo or the Lunar Capital."

 

[Yamatohime]

The Ten Kings...? Care to elaborate?

Ten Kings - the Great Yamas who created Hell.

As for Hecatia

She is mysterious god who governs the Hells of the Moon, the Earth, and otherworld.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Eiki judges, Hecatia rules. There is no equality there, even with respect to power. Added to that, the ten Yamas judge for one Hell, Hecatia rules all of them.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Hecatia, being the literal embodiment of magic, may explain why she has to 'just play around'. It could be that she is actually so powerful that in a real fight something like this might happen.

Marisa: "Magicanon: Final Spark!"

• the spell fizzles as a puff of smoke leaves the mini hakkero*

Hecatia: "Uh... No."

Of course, I have no proof of this. Its mere headcanon with the only support being the fact that in Touhou, celestial gods embody the concepts they represent(and she represents a LOT). Killing a celestial god is akin to killing the concept itself.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

She is the embodiment of magic? Since when?

Also Reimu ain't using magic, yet she get rekted too.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Both in lore(she is essentially Hecate) and in universe(she is a celestial god) solidifies her status as embodiment of magic. I haven't found it specifically stated as such, but that's how tohou celestial gods work. Killing Ameterasu would literally destroy the sun... among other things.

But... if you're looking for a direct quote, I don't have one.

As for Reimu, Hecatia also represents spirits, thresholds, crossroads... all things that can literally mess with Reimu's powers potentially. And she DOES use magic, it's just not her only thing.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but in Touhou, she is a goddess of Hell, not Magic.

 

[Drac32Drac]

"Hecatia was associated with the underworld in myth through forms of magic, like witchcraft, necromancy, and sorcery, ghosts, thresholds and crossroads, and the border between worlds."

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well yeah, the Myth version, we can't really uses Myth versions of a character into a fictional character base of it. The 2hu version is "Hell" and that's it

 

[Drac32Drac]

Fair enough. At least until more is revealed. The quoted source did say Hecatia and not Hecate. But you are right.