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Standard Battle Assumptions: Speed Equalized and State of Mind

The problem with that Matt is that is mostly opininated, especially regarding the definition of "fun".

We do matches between those with greater hax and those with greater AP because one or the other has a fair chance of doing something to the other that can give them the win. It's like if you pit an 8-A with a pletora of hax (soul manip, conceptual manip, space-time hax, mind hax, etc.) against a 5-B with little to no hax and mostly revolves on using power. It's up to debate on whether the 8-A's hax can go through first or the 5-B guy's power gets in first.

Speed is a whole other thing entirely. The way I see it, it doesn't bring more possibities. If anything, it decreases it heavily because the slower guy won't have any chance of using any power or hax on the faster guy. Even if not in character to start out with a blitz, how high is the chance of using abilities on a guy faster than you? Especially from a notable to ridculous level degree? Very slim to none.
 
I agree with Matt on this.

Speed equalisation is sometimes also a problem in threads where people have infinite or immeasurable speed. For example, I've seen characters who are MFTL+ fight against characters who have infinite and immeasurable speed, and people just say that the characters who had infinite speed don't retain their time slow/stop resistance. Or that since speed is equalised, both characters should have the resistance. Or that the character with immeasurable speed can no longer travel through time with their movement. Or that both characters should be able to travel through time. I've even seen matches where people use Time Manipulation to slow time for their opponents and speed up time for themselves to make them faster and people would say that since speed is equalised that they would remain the same speed after these things are done.

I'm not saying speed equalisation shouldn't be allowed, but there should be more clarifications as to what it actually does, and it shouldn't be automatic.
 
DMUA said:
Superman and gang actually scale?
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DMUA said:
As in he can react to him and not get omegablitzed.
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Typically Flash holding back or PIS. Flash is canonically much faster than the rest of the Justice League, including Superman. He explicitly held back during every race he ever had with Superman. He can do things through speed that Superman can't, like reach trans-time velocity or outrun death to the end of the universe where it can't exist on a conceptual level. Just like how they often have to nerf or buff people so dudes like Batman can be relevant, Flash often has plot stopping him from just demolishing everyone.
 
I honestly think our definition for speed blitz or ap stomp are so variable, it creates more confusion then anything.

Especially for wide tiers like 4-B, 3-B etc etc.

Anyway, I disagree with speed being in standard battle assumptions, everything else seems okay. I am open to the first one though, wont complain if it gets added.

I dont think it is a slippery slope to say 'Speed is equalized', but now we have to 'Equalize Attack Potency.'
 
I really think speed equalized should stay. All removing it will do is make it harder to find matches, which will cut the amount of matches people have by a huge margin. Theirs no fun in that.
 
What Ryu said.

Speedsters are probably the most dangerous beings on the Justice League and have to be constantly downplayed or subject to PIS in order for there to be anything remotely resembling conflict and the same reason why Deathstroke is remotely relevant aside from other plot devices like "Gravity Sheath".

But that isn't point of this thread. The point is whether or not to make Speed Equalized automatic.

I'm not bending one way or the other, but I don't see why we should go through this effort when the OP just has to type two words.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Speed equalization should not be automatic in my opinion. It should be up to the OP to decide.
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I think the point of the OP is it's automatically assumed unless the OP says otherwise.
 
@Kukui

"We do matches between those with greater hax and those with greater AP because one or the other has a fair chance of doing something to the other that can give them the win."

Okay. Same thing with Speed difference.

"It's like if you pit an 8-A with a pletora of hax (soul manip, conceptual manip, space-time hax, mind hax, etc.) against a 5-B with little to no hax and mostly revolves on using power. It's up to debate on whether the 8-A's hax can go through first or the 5-B guy's power gets in first."

Okay.

"Speed is a whole other thing entirely. The way I see it, it doesn't bring more possibities."

Wrong. It allows one to hit the enemy more times, dodge attacks more easily, etc. If placed against stronger / more haxed characters, what we get is the AP vs Hax fight once again. Who can win becomes a matter of analysis, as both opponents have changes.

"If anything, it decreases it heavily because the slower guy won't have any chance of using any power or hax on the faster guy."

What if they get tired? What if the hax goes against speed (Even something like a Force Choke or Telepathy would work).

"Even if not in character to start out with a blitz, how high is the chance of using abilities on a guy faster than you?"

Going by fiction, plentyful.

"specially from a notable to ridculous level degree? Very slim to none."

Which is why I specified in my posts that speed equalization should only be used when absolutely necessary. Like a Gold Saint vs Darth Schneider where one is like 7,000c and the other is Septllion c.
 
So, we're gonna stop equalizing speed from now on or what? Even if it isn't SBA, everyone will still keep doing it in every match.
 
KinkiestSins said:
I honestly think our definition for speed blitz or ap stomp are so variable, it creates more confusion then anything.
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Which is why I believe we shouldn't have a formal definition. We should maybe have a guideline with recommendations and vague instructions not to be followed literally with no exception, but instead something that would help a new user in deciding and figuring out if a match is a stomp or not.
 
Paulo.junior.969 said:
So, we're gonna stop equalizing speed from now on or what? Even if it isn't SBA, everyone will still keep doing it in every match.
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If it was up to me Speed Equalization would be denied unless absolutely necessary. But it doesn't work like that.
 
@Matt

I consider you a friend, but I just have to disagree with you on this one.

"It makes it pointless to debate speedsters. It makes it pointless to debate characters like the Doctor who can react in nanoseconds but whose movement isn't that good.

It makes it pointless to debate people who can temporarily Amp or Nerf their or their enemy's speed.

It makes all of that completely and utterly pointless."

Yes. Unfortunate byproduct. However, they can still be unequalized and used this way if you can actually find a legitimate match for them.

"Speed Equalization doesn't increase the number of possible matchups, it just makes the debating lazier, removing one more element that would require close inspection from the people in the threads, while also negating the existence of certain matchups."

Frankly, bullcrap. And you know it. I will ignore the absolute in "doesn't increase," since it will absolutely increase the number by even a small amount, but even ignoring absolutes, and saying it very slightly increases the number of possible matchups, that is still completely and utterly wrong.

Let's just stroll through some of my matchups. Sylvanos vs Ragyo. 80~ m/s vs 1,543,500 m/s. ~19,000 times difference. Speed blitz. Alucard vs The Godwoke. 55,069.773 m/s vs at least 2,997,924,580 m/s. ~54,438 times difference. Super Speed Blitz. I could keep going.

"Wanna make a AP vs Speed match? Tough luck. Hax vs Speed? Again, tough luck."

Not tough luck. You can still use Unequal Speed. No one is banning it, just removing it as default.

"Really? Then why isn't Flash invincible in his comics? And don't give me the answer "PIS", there's a good reason for it:

Speed isn't everything. Any speed unequal match with a "Speed Blitz gg" can frankly be said for a phletora of other things, like "One-shots gg", or "Haxstomps gg". Neither of which are good answers. Unless the gap in speed between the fighters is literally millions of times or more, the unequal speed won't grant an immediate victor.

Also, characters can sometimes get tired after punching way too much. Never seen a Tank vs Speedster fight in a comic where the speedster unleashes a bazillion punches that do nothing, gets tired, and then gets taken down with one flick of his enemy's wrist? That can happen."

I'll give you the answer of PIS. At dead minimum is inconclusive. If you see the world as standing still, which you would even at around 100x difference, they will never lose enough energy to become useless. They will realize that they can't punch him out, stop, and rest to regain full energy. The other dude is essentially a statue, so he is no threat. He can't swat the speedster aside, as he is basically not moving.

"BTW, people talk about speed blitzing if the character is literally five times faster, but these same people make matches for people with a gap of millions of times in their strength, without checking the scaling / calcs / feats that put them on the tier they are, just because they have the same number on the Tier."

Two wrongs don't make a right. I close threads if I see that they have a huge gap in AP, even if they are in the same tier.
 
Darkanine said:
I really think speed equalized should stay. All removing it will do is make it harder to find matches, which will cut the amount of matches people have by a huge margin. Theirs no fun in that.
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I am not advocating for a complete ban, just a strong discouragement to avoid it being the default state of 99,9% of all battles here. I see no fun in completely removing what is arguably the second most important stat from the equation entirely.
 
Maybe you guys could make that a new rule, that you can only equalize speed if it is really needed for the match to be fair, or something like that? and that you shouldn't do it if the speed gap is too small? Maybe that could work, I don't know.
 
Paulo.junior.969 said:
Maybe you guys could make that a new rule, that you can only equalize speed if it is really needed for the match to be fair, or something like that? and that you shouldn't do it if the speed gap is too small? Maybe that could work, I don't know.
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My only issue with this again is that speed is so variable, speed blitz itself is somewhat unclear to begin with.

A rule on this, while good in theory, would be really hard to write.

Although this is what I personally prefer too, also lump in a rule on an ap stomp regarding tiers.
 
@Paulo

That's already intended to be the regulation, but people have just been using it constantly to avoid having to think about speed even when two characters are within the same relative speed range.
 
Speed buff/debuff/hax is allowed.

Recently, I've seen a lot of matches where even with speed equal, A blizes B and wins.
 
I'm very against speed equalized being the standard.

The standard assumptions are written to be a fair match in which the characters can use their abilities to the fullest extent. It makes sense for it to be that way, since we want to compare characters by their full extent and ideally using everything we put on the profiles. Otherwise putting it on the profiles would not be really relevant for the atches.

I fully understand why many matches are speed equalized, but it really shouldn't be the standard assumption. The standard assumption should be everything goes.

It is also simply the fairest assumption to not just ignore part of what makes a character powerful.

Furthermore I generally want to encourage to make not speed equal matches and this would be doing exactly the opposite.

(And all notes on profiles regarding the assumptions of a win/loss would be adjusted...)


In regards to state of mind: When I wrote it one of my orientation points was for example how Kenichi Shirahama is a slow starter in fights and, since this weakness is relevant in the work, it should also be refelected in battles.

Another orientation point was how 90% of all battles between characters with hax in fiction still start with a fistfight and energy beams. I wanted characters, that instantly use their most effective measures, be rewarded for having a better fighting style than those that don't.


So how could reflect that? Well, I suppose one could say something like "In character, but willing to kill. They are assumed about as serious as if engaging the opponent in a martial arts match, in which killing is allowed, but not required. The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't."
 
@Assalt

No offense.

"Yes. Unfortunate byproduct. However, they can still be unequalized and used this way if you can actually find a legitimate match for them."

Which is why making Speed Equalized the standard is pointless. Losing so much valuable and interesting possibilities is far more unfortunate, and easily fixable.

"Frankly, bullcrap. And you know it. I will ignore the absolute in "doesn't increase," since it will absolutely increase the number by even a small amount, but even ignoring absolutes, and saying it very slightly increases the number of possible matchups, that is still completely and utterly wrong."

Okay, and what's your point? Some fights are speed blitzes. My point is that most fights which get speed equalized aren't. They would work perfectly fine without it.

"Not tough luck. You can still use Unequal Speed. No one is banning it, just removing it as default."

Literally who uses Speed Unequal here? Speed Equalized is such a standard, due to a virtue of overglorifying the values of speed, which is no different than glorifying strength or hax, that you never speed Speed Unequal. And making it the standard will just make it even more prevalent. What if someone who isn't aware of this new standard goes and makes a thread he wants to be speed unequal? Just creates problem.

Literally no other VsBoard does Speed Equalization as the standard like it is here. It should be done when absolutely needed. Not as the standard.

"I'll give you the answer of PIS. At dead minimum is inconclusive. If you see the world as standing still, which you would even at around 100x difference, they will never lose enough energy to become useless. They will realize that they can't punch him out, stop, and rest to regain full energy. The other dude is essentially a statue, so he is no threat. He can't swat the speedster aside, as he is basically not moving."

MHS+ Guy with Telepathic Mind Hax vs FTL guy. Know what will happen? FTL guy will end up being paralyzed or attacked mentally.

Same things with people with stuff like matter manipulation, paralysis, spatial or temporal distortion. Hax can get around speed.

As for strength? As long as the gap isn't too big, and the slower character is skilled and smart enough, not only will he tank his enemies' blows, but he'll be able to time out where his enemy will be and telegraph his attacks. It's such a common think in fiction and its never brought up in fights.

"Two wrongs don't make a right. I close threads if I see that they have a huge gap in AP, even if they are in the same tier."

I never said it does. I'm just pointing out that people are incredibly obsessed with making sure that it is "100% fair" with speed but give next to know thought when it comes to AP.
 
I agree with DT. I'm fine with speed equalizing but it shouldn't be the standard default.
 
@DontTalk

I agree absolutely.

@Dragon

Mach 1,000 vs Mach 8,000 shouldn't be equalized honestly.
 
If AP equalization undermines the tiering system than speed equalizing undermines the speed stat using the same logic. I am neutral on that, but that's my assessment. Can't invalidate your own logic.
 
DontTalkDT said:
So how could reflect that? Well, I suppose one could say something like "In character, but willing to kill. They are assumed about as serious as if engaging the opponent in a martial arts match, in which killing is allowed, but not required. The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't."
Click to expand...
I like this better. It shows the setting for the fight better than having no introduction. It shows that the two are actually fighting, if only casually. It also means characters like Zen'O would lead with erasure, considering if he is actually provoked into a legitimate fight you better believe he is out of blood.
 
What do you guys think is the minimum difference in speed the two character need to have to the fight not to be fair without equalized speed?
 
"Okay. Same thing with Speed difference."

Not when the difference is stompish. And as already adressed, it's very difficult, if not, next to impossible to find characters where the difference in speed is fair enough to leave alone.

"It allows one to hit the enemy more times, dodge attacks more easily, etc."

Which right here is the very definition of giving one guy an advantage over the other. We only make fights on those who have equal chances of winning, not ones where you start off with advantages. Otherwise its pointless.

"If placed against against stronger / more haxed characters"

A VERY big if we're talking about though.

"What we get is the AP vs Hax fight once again. Who can win becomes a matter of analysis as both characters have chances".

This works only in the case of stronger opponents, which is also a very big limiter. What im getting here is that as long as the slower opponents are stronger or more haxed, speed unequal is fine. Which isn't a good idea. We shouldnt just not make matches between faster and slower people just because of AP or Hax difference. Especially if the much faster person in question is overall weaker AP wise all-together. A 7-A with MFTL speed shouldnt need to be pit against an OP haxed 5-A just because a much slower 6-C couldnt cut it.

"What if they get tired? What if the hax goes against speed (Even something like a Force Choke or Telepathy would work)."

And what if they don't? Again, this is a very very big if we are talking about here that may work with specific characters, but definitely not all. We can't make something that only effects some out of the total. And as for the latter, that would be okay when until reaction or combat speeds get factored, assuming they're also not good enough.
 
I agree with Matt here.

While I don't interact within this community very much I do lurk a lot since discovering this site around late 2015 and I have seen matches where one charater has been robbed of their speed advantage leading to the other character outclassing them in every other catagory. I never liked the idea of equal speed since it takes away from matches more often than not. This can lead to cases where two characters are evenly matched but one comes out on top because of an ability or hax while the other character has their speed advantage taken away resulting in a loss for them. I do agree that speed equalized needs to happen in some cases because having one character being millions of times faster than their opponent isn't even an argument in most cases.
 
I'm fine with AP/stat equal VS threads as long as they don't get added to profiles honestly.

And I think there's a big difference between equalizing speed between characters who normally would've had everything else be fair but speed makes it a complete stomp, and just equalizing AP or every stat all together so you can have Kirito fight Grand Priest.

Plus wasn't one of the biggest complaints people had being slippery slope arguments? Just equalizing speed isn't going to lead to anything more ridiculous or a "might as well just" situation.
 
It's a shame when intelligence gets ignored for all the same reasons speed blitzing is a stomp. In a match of equal AP, the smarter character (if by a certain degree) would outsmart the lesser intellectual in almost every scenario using SBA. I however only recall one instance where a character won by virtue of intelligence. Goku vs. Sonic.
 
I have removed the Speed Equal by default part from the OP, since many members seem to vehemently disagree with it.

Instead, let's turn this into an opportunity to define what a speed blitz truly entails, in numbers.

Obvious it should not be a base amount, as this will be inflated for lower speed characters and meaningless to high speed characters, so that leaves us with a percentage, or multiplier.

What amount would it make it a blitz? 1000x? Absolutely. This would be very close to what a human to a snail would be. 100x? Still, yes. This would be like a human to a Mach 2 jet. 10x? Debatable, and probably my personal starting point. At this point the opponent would be little more than a blur to the slower one, and the fast target could watch a 60 FPS video at 6 FPS, being able to easily react to each frame in a way that would make him unhittable.
 
Shikamaru (A 8-B) won against a high-end 8-A with pure intelligence and nothing more. He was also about to kill a 7-C but got interrupted.

But, to be honest, Shikamaru is easily one of the smartest chars in fiction, so it's not really a standard.
 
@Sera

Well nowadays it also depends on what a character starts with and what actually abilities they have available.
 
Glad Assalt is bringing this issue to light ovo.

I think a good benchmark is about five or ten times.

It would depend obviously

Although I remember a percentage that 25 percent faster then the eye is too fast for the brain, thus that is a 'speed blitz'.

IIRC it was a post on here.
 
I think Shikamaru easily being one of the smartest characters in fiction, with all the supergeniuses, higher cosmic entities, nigh-omniscients and omniscients out there, is a major stretch.
 
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