Standard Battle Assumptions: Speed Equalized and State of Mind

[Assaltwaffle]

OK, these couple of things need to be addressed about our Standard Battle Assumptions, with one being even more important than the other. This is a big one.

1. Speed Equalization by Default: I think it is no surprise that I would like for Speed Equalized to be the default assumption. The absolute vast majority of battles that take place on the Wiki are equalized, as even a small difference in Speed can cause the opponent to be nothing but an untargetable blur.

It is hard to find a match in which two character both share a tier and have similar hax, but finding one in which they share a tier, have similar hax, and a very close amount of speed (which will in turn affect how they use their AP and hax) is nearly impossible to balance.

In addition, speed can be focused on exclusively in VS Matches, even more so than AP and hax are already focused on. Why is this? Well, as mentioned above, speed determines the use of everything else that a character has. If a character is too slow, he or she won't be able to use anything they have. Attack Potency, hax (that aren't passive), Range, Lifting Strength, and Intelligence all fly out the window if Speed is Unequal and the characters aren't extremely close in speed.

We have widely accepted the use of Speed Equalization, as it is necessary, and I think it is more than time that we incorporate this into our default Battle Assumptions. Unless otherwise stated in the OP, characters should be equalized in speed.

2. State of Mind: "In character but willing to kill" is fine and dandy, but what is the situation the characters find themselves in? Do they randomly find each other? Have they been instructed to fight one another? Who is the aggressor? A lot of this can be established in the OP, but it gets confusing in some threads.

For example, in this thread we see a haxxy character take on Zen'O. Zen'O obviously wins if he is provoked into attacking, since he can just erase, but what causes him to be provoked? We currently don't specify that the characters are provoked into fighting, so unless we assume they have both been told they are fighting and are ready to fight, it could just be a staring contest, or, in the above case, a lethal word game.

Perhaps we need to specify that the characters are indeed provoked enough to fight their opponent. It would make no sense for two hero characters to start fighting without provocation.

If this is already assumed, it needs to be more specific and elaborated on.

TLDR: Speed Equal in fights by default; characters provoked to the point of fighting in fights by default. Try to keep it calm guys, and let's come to a conclusion.

 

[DMUA]

Finally.

I won't have to put speed Equalized in every single OP of every single thread I make.

Yes.

Best Content revision yet. Dwarfs the destruction of 3-A Dante like Amitabha dwarfs the universe.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah the latter especially bothered me, since this can in part decides a lot of things regardinng character.

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm ambivalent on the first measure. It wouldn't really change much other thank making it so that OPs don't have to type two words.

The second measure makes sense, but I'm not entirely sure how to phrase that.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

So we won't have to delay the thread telling OP to equalize speed every single time they forget to do so? Awesome!

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I fine with adding the speed Equalized to standard battle assumptions.

For the provoked thing, I'm pretty sure we just assume their willing to fight.

I'm fine if people want to be more specific, a small note should work.

 

[Sera_EX]

Y...you stole my thread idea :/

Lol. Anyway, since basically all matches are speed equalized (as lazy as it is), than I obviously am down with this, and the extra tidbit about provocation.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm more iffy on Speed Equalized though. Ignoring one of the most major stats entirely for any matches unless specified doesn't look really good.

And it's not like Verse Equalization that makes it fair for everyone, Speed Equalized specifically ***** over the fastest one.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I fine with adding the speed Equalized to standard battle assumptions.

For the provoked thing, I'm pretty sure we just assume their willing to fight.

I'm fine if people want to be more specific, a small note should work.

Well being willing is fine, but if they are only willing, who leads with the opening shot is still up for grabs. There is a difference with being OK with fighting if attacked and being provoking into a fighting state of mind.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't like speed equalized. Makes it pointless to even category speed. AP equalized matches are banned because they trivialize analyzing and classifying strength, so why speed?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I'm more iffy on Speed Equalized though. Ignoring one of the most major stats entirely for any matches unless specified doesn't look really good.

And it's not like Verse Equalization that makes it fair for everyone, Speed Equalized specifically ***** over the fastest one.

We already do this, though. The only thing that making it default would do is to have it so that the OP doesn't need to worry about adding a specific restriction that should be used 95% of the time anyway.

If anything, this will draw attention to threads that successfully use Unequalized Speed, and that can be listed as a selling point as to why the match is different and interesting.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I don't like speed equalized. Makes it pointless to even category speed. AP equalized matches are banned because they trivialize analyzing and classifying strength, so why speed?

While I can completely see this argument, we already ignore speed. Find 100 random matches. How many of them that don't deal with Infinite/Immeasurable/Irrelevant characters are unequal? Probably not a lot. I'm willing to bet 5 or less than 5.

Edit: And why should we still list speed on profiles, even if in our battles it is 95% of the time irrelevant (which, once again, it already is)? Because we are an indexing Wiki first and foremost.

 

[DMUA]

I don't like speed equalized. Makes it pointless to even category speed. AP equalized matches are banned because they trivialize analyzing and classifying strength, so why speed?

We're an indexing site first, and we make threads purely for fun.

We already equalize speed all the time, due to... well, what's already in the post itself, "It is hard to find a match in which two character both share a tier and have similar hax, but finding one in which they share a tier, have similar hax, and a very close amount of speed (which will in turn affect how they use their AP and hax) is nearly impossible to balance."

If we leave this explaination on the Standard Battle Assumptions, I don't see a problem.

I have been ninja'd......

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Speed equalization was made to create more matches overall. Otherwise we would be limited heavily on how many matches one could do. So equalization throws off the entire tiering system while speed equalization is simply, no speed stat.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't think that the fact that we do it a lot is a good reason to encourage it even more, to the point where you must specifically state when you're doing a truly accurate matchup instead of it just being standard.

 

[Heilergott]

Thank god... I was getting tired of always having speed equalized. But I wish to point something extremely important out.

Namely... What about the speedsters? I mean Guys like Might Guy, Kakashi, Flash and dozens more? Their defining character trait is that they are a bit faster than the enemy. What about them?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We don't need Speed Equalization. At all. No other site does it. It is frankly lazy and throws the factor of speed off-matches completely off the window.

It makes it pointless to debate speedsters. It makes it pointless to debate characters like the Doctor who can react in nanoseconds but whose movement isn't that good.

It makes it pointless to debate people who can temporarily Amp or Nerf their or their enemy's speed.

It makes all of that completely and utterly pointless.

Speed Equalization doesn't increase the number of possible matchups, it just makes the debating lazier, removing one more element that would require close inspection from the people in the threads, while also negating the existence of certain matchups.

Wanna make a AP vs Speed match? Tough luck. Hax vs Speed? Again, tough luck.

"Oh, Matt, but Speed Blitz gg win".

Really? Then why isn't Flash invincible in his comics? And don't give me the answer "PIS", there's a good reason for it:

Speed isn't everything. Any speed unequal match with a "Speed Blitz gg" can frankly be said for a phletora of other things, like "One-shots gg", or "Haxstomps gg". Neither of which are good answers. Unless the gap in speed between the fighters is literally millions of times or more, the unequal speed won't grant an immediate victor.

Also, characters can sometimes get tired after punching way too much. Never seen a Tank vs Speedster fight in a comic where the speedster unleashes a bazillion punches that do nothing, gets tired, and then gets taken down with one flick of his enemy's wrist? That can happen.

All the arguments used in favor of Speed Equalization can be used for equalizing AP. "It's hard to find matches where it isn't AP stomp so AP equalized."

BTW, people talk about speed blitzing if the character is literally five times faster, but these same people make matches for people with a gap of millions of times in their strength, without checking the scaling / calcs / feats that put them on the tier they are, just because they have the same number on the Tier.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

I like Speed Blitz =

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Thank god... I was getting tired of always having speed equalized. But I wish to point something extremely important out.

Namely... What about the speedsters? I mean Guys like Might Guy, Kakashi, Flash and dozens more? Their defining character trait is that they are a bit faster than the enemy. What about them?

That has always been a problem for us. If you feel like the speed of said characters define them, just Unequal it manually in the OP and make sure the opponent can actually deal with the speed, either by hax, durability + AoE, or something else.

 

[Overlord775]

Thank god... I was getting tired of always having speed equalized. But I wish to point something extremely important out.
Namely... What about the speedsters? I mean Guys like Might Guy, Kakashi, Flash and dozens more? Their defining character trait is that they are a bit faster than the enemy. What about them?

speedsters don't work well in this wiki, being too much faster than your opponent means that he can't do anything to stop you, it's just an unfair battle in most cases

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I just pointed why that's a fallacy. Speed is a factor like any other. No need to deify it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

At the very least if we're going to do that, we should remove that restriction on speed buff/debuff. Because it's dumb. You can't speed blitz if you need to activate an ability first, and Time Manip does the exact same thing. Yet we allow it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In one year all matches will have all stats equalized so it is fair. And intelligence will be equalized with everyone being bloodlust.

 

[DMUA]

Really? Then why isn't Flash invincible in his comics? And don't give me the answer "PIS", there's a good reason for it

Superman and gang actually scale?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Saikou

I have no problems with getting rid of that to be honest.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

>Superman scaling to the Flash's speed.

Literally how. You don't even need to read a single comic to know one is faster than the other. It's common sense.

Also read my post, I'm not talking about not being invincible against people of equal spedd. I'm talking against slower people.

 

[DMUA]

As in he can react to him and not get omegablitzed.

 

[Cooltaff12]

So, is the speed always equalized or is the speed equalized just from the start with no powerups or transformations?

I don't like speed equalized. Makes it pointless to even category speed. AP equalized matches are banned because they trivialize analyzing and classifying strength, so why speed?

Me neither

 

[Assaltwaffle]

In one year all matches will have all stats equalized so it is fair. And intelligence will be equalized with everyone being bloodlust.

Let's not Slippery Slope this, please.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So, is the speed always equalized or is the speed equalized just from the start with no powerups or transformations?

Completely arbitrary, dependent on the characters, the people who are debating, and their like for the characters. In some threads they will equalize everything even attacks which amp speed or ignore speed, and soon time manipulation as well, while in others they allow it cause it gives people the win.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Let's not Slippery Slope this, please.

I already see people wanting to equalize hax and AP Equalization had to be banned. And I've seen people wanting to outright remove abilities such as time hax through speed equalization.

The post was tongue and cheek but the fact of the matter is, it is a problem. It removes all thought from the debate.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Now Star Wars can further prove they're the strongest High 6-As

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I am not going to argue this, but Matt you are literally taking this too far. You know damn well were are not going to equalize that. C'mon man. I could careless what you think of speed equalization, but don't see we are gonna soon equalize everything. As someone who advocated for Speed Equalization I find that insulting. HOWEVER, I agree that speed buff AND debuff technique should infact be allowed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In fact, here's something I've decided: I'll never make a Speed Equalized match ever again until absolutely necessary, and I would recommend all thread makers to try it. Seriously, you have no idea how more possibilities it opens to the debate, as long as you don't glorify speed. Mix it up. Not every match needs to be of characters of the same attack potency. People already do Attack Potency vs Hax.

So why not replace either of those with Speed?

It could be fun.

 

[Kepekley23]

Matt pretty much said my opinion in a way I could never do myself. I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[The_Everlasting]

If the much faster character has hax the person doesn't it just becomes a disgustingly big mismatch because they can activate it before the opponent can even do anything. I strongly disagree.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am not going to argue this, but Matt you are literally taking this too far. You know damn well were are not going to equalize that. C'mon man. I could careless what you think of speed equalization, but don't see we are gonna soon equalize everything. As someone who advocated for Speed Equalization I find that insulting. HOWEVER, I agree that speed buff AND debuff technique should infact be allowed.

Okay, can you argue why Equalizing Speed is in any way, shape, or form different from the others?

Because it factually isn't. It is the removal of a factor in a battle solely for the purpose of making the debate easier, and the act of finding a matchup easier. It adds nothing to the quality of the discussion or to making the fight more interesting. In fact it makes it less interesting.

And this is done solely because people exaggerate the value of speed in a dight, and spam "Speedblitz" on the thread if it is unequal.

Imagine if people spammed "APStomp" because one character were 10 times stronger, or "Haxstomp" if one character had one hax ability that the other didn't.

Same difference. People act like x4 times speed difference makes it a speedblitz stomp.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If the much faster character has hax the person doesn't it just becomes a disgustingly big mismatch because they can activate it before the opponent can even do anything.
I strongly disagree.

Hence why I said Speed vs Hax or Speed vs AP. If the character has the speed and the AP, or the Speed and the Hax, or all Three, them it becomes a stomp.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

People need to know to only equalize speed WHEN NEEDED. We know Infinite/Immeasurable speed matches don't need equalizing. And from what I heard, as long as you aren't like 5 or more times faster it isn't a blitz. We need a guideline to tell what is a blitz and what isn't. That would fix this entire issue.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I would say that even x100 times faster isn't enough if it is a balanced matchup where the opponent has their own advantages.