Standard Battle Assumptions: Speed Equalized and State of Mind

[Assaltwaffle]

this is kinda idiotic. if we have a subsonic character that's 9-a fight someone who is ftl but is 9-c, then the speed equalization just gave away the fight to the 1st character.

That is clearly a mismatch either way and is not even close to a good example. Sorry, but that isn't bringing anything to the table and I'd appreciate if you didn't call a decent portion of the Wiki idiots.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

no. I didn't the wikiers idiotic. I called that habit idiotic. different.

 

[Golden_Void]

Best Content revision yet. Dwarfs the destruction of 3-A Dante like Amitabha dwarfs the universe.

You can't help yourself from mentioning 3-A Dante in almost any CRT thread can you? ƒñö

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Found some wifi.

I agree with a X10 speed difference being a blitz, and do not think we should automatically equalise speed.

For the second topic, perhaps the OP should specify the scenario in which they fight. Otherwise, I agree with DT's thoughts on the subject.

 

[KinkiestSins]

10x is a good metric for me. I am more for 5 times, but I can settle on ten.

 

[DMUA]

You can't help yourself from mentioning 3-A Dante in almost any CRT thread can you? ƒñö

It was a big bit of history for the wiki. One of the main criticisms of it is that we had Universal Dante.

 

[AquaWaifu]

I agree with this method of detailing speed blitzing. It puts more effort on the users here to actually think about two character's speed in comparison with each other in a matchup instead of just going "Welp this one is mach 4500 and the other mach 8000 so speed equalzied"

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I disagree with the auto speed equalization. While it being common practice for OPs to make matches speed equalised is fine, making it the official policy of the wiki to disregard what is one of the most important stats, if not the most important stat. Having it as an unwritten rule is fine but its a different beast entirely to have this as official, and almost feels like a built disadvantage for any speed based fighter. I support the 10x speed resulting in a blitz, and I may support an auto equalization of the speed gap excedes this and one side cannot compensate via something like passive defensive hax

I don't think characters should be provoked by necesity unless it is completely against their nature to want to fight. Like the Darby borthers (mostly the younger) or Marison from JJBA. It is against their best interest to try and fight their apponent 1v1 instead of resorting to trickery or word play. To a lesser degree, someone like Yuya, who is more likely to win by not fighting at all and just activating his stand and running as fast as possible

 

[YungManzi]

@Assaltwaffle

I already gave my reason as to why compairing fiction to reality in this case is invalid, when talking about superhuman speed, a difference of ten times is huge.

A character would have to be 70,000 times FTL to speed blitz a 7,000 times FTL character (Which is just not the case) At some point it has to stop. And that doesn't even go into the fact that speed blitz is incredibly inconsistent among all fictional universes (meaning in some you have to be 100's of times faster to speed blitz, while in others you don't have to be much faster at all).

A good example of not having to be too much faster to speed blitz from a series I love is when Sasuke was speed blitzed by Rock Lee....obviously, base kid Rock Lee(with ankle weights on) is not ten times faster than Sasuke.

Discussions like these make speed hard to deal with; however, I'm fine with whatever the community comes up with. I'm waiting on the S. O. M discussions.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Yung

I'm not suggesting we scale verses based off of who blitzes who, since that does vary depending on the series.

I'm just saying that, for our own battles, we need to agree on a value for blitzing. So for us a 7,000 c character would only get blitzed by a 70,000 c character or higher. Just because someone in that verse blitzes the 7,000 c character we shouldn't backwards scale it to 70,000 c.

 

[YungManzi]

I agree with lapitus when it comes to state of mind.

 

[Kaltias]

Haven't read the entire thread yet, but i'm against speed equal being the default. People have the right to equalize it if they want to, but it means that in the long run we would need to remove the matches where it wasn't specified (Say that i made a match where i had a Mach 1000 and a Mach 4000 character, if speed equal suddenly becomes the standard assumption, match is invalid).

And because speed equal is, for all intent and purposes, nerfing a character to make the match possible. I don't have a issue with it, because finding matches is otherwise much harder, but when the result is added, it shouldn't say "A wasn't nerfed during this match" (Read speed unequal). If it doesn't say anything, it should mean that both were at their best.

About the state of mind part, i always assumed that "in character but willing to kill" meant "This character is fighting like it usually does in a fight to the death".

This doesn't mean that the character leads with hax. If its MO is punching an enemy until they die, then eat their soul when they are done, that's what it would do, not go "soul hax gg".

I think that i can agree with x5-10 being the value for a speedblitz

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

I agree with Kal. I have seen some speed unequal match that is legit and added. As long as the speed gap wasn't enough let one characters constantly blizts their opponent to oblivion, speed unqeual match can be legitmate happens.

 

[Agnaa]

I know that you've already retracted making speed equalized a SBA, but I'd like to put in my two cents in exactly why I think that, and changes like it, are bad.

It's not because it encourages it or something like that. It's because I believe threads, when I see "X vs Y", my normal assumption should be that both of those characters are like they are usually in fiction, in a neutral space. While I think that things like bloodlust and speed equalized are fine to add to matches, I think the standard battle assumptions should be ones that don't alter the characters involved.

Also note that when these changes like bloodlust and speed equalized are made, they're mentioned on the profiles when they're added, as they're not assumed knowledge.

This is why I'm a little iffy on most verse equalization (i don't like equalization where the other fighter can by default interact with things that usually require special powers to interact with in the original verse, I like equalization where things that aren't explicitly mentioned, or are outright declared non-existent in another fiction are assumed to exist there), but it seems like I'm in the minority opinion on that at least.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

On the topic of what qualifies as a speed blitz, to use an in universe example, would this qualify as a speed blitz? Hinokage and Gagamaru. Hinokage is Light Speed and slaps Gagamaru like he is nothing, but Gagamaru (massively hypersonic+) has passive damage reflection so even tho Gagamaru cannot come close to Hinokage in combat speed yet can engage in combat.

Pretty much, if a character can 'blitz' another character by being far faster then them in combat speed but has no way to put down the other character is it still considered a speed blitz?

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Speed blizt tends to make a match become stomp, that is why we equalized them in the first place. But if the speed gap isn't enough for one person to constantly blizt another, then equalizing spedd is not actually necessary as long as the match the opponent has some chance to win (Heck, I have seen a slower opponent manage to win against a faster opponent).

It is not wrong to equalized speed, but creating a rule regarding it isn't right move either. But if we really needs a rule regarding it, at least specify it a bit like this: "If the speed gap between two character is merely 2 or 3 times of each other, unequalising is allowed as long as it doesn't make the match stomp".

@Iaptus If Hinokage cannot put down Gagamaru, then what you mentioned above is a stomp match.

 

[YungManzi]

^^The problem stems from speed blitz being completely unquantifiable when it comes to the battle wiki, We would have nothing to base our value for blitzing on....but 2 or 3 times is certainly better than 10 IMO.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

I think you need to be 5 or 6 times faster than your opponent in order to blizt them.

 

[Heilergott]

In most anime, double or so speed is already a high border, since you are basically permanent in defense because you have no time to attack. With 5 or 6 times you get pretty much speedblitzed. 10 times and more, and I rather doubt most contestance will even be able to move in the slightest.

 

[YungManzi]

^^^Agreed

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The value should be over 10.

 

[CinCameron20]

Skips through the thread, ignoring that someone might've already stated this

Speed should only be automatically equalized if the speed of Character A is basically capable of blitzing Character B before he can react, or making it so that B is severely disadvantaged to the point where the moment he throws out one attack, he's already been tagged several times at that moment. 10x seems like a high value. You could blitz someone by being 5x faster than them, I'd think--unless the slower person has some decent precognative powers.

In regards to "State of Mind" I feel like it should be "Before they even meet up with eachother, each character is given a reason enough for them to fight the other combatant before meeting up with them at a designated location moments later". It could be a 30 second pre-battle briefing before being dropped into the arena, lol.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

When it comes to speed and reaction, one thing I feel like we have to remember is that just because your senses (in particular, your eyes) can pick up sensory information does not mean you can act on that information. Your senses have acquire the information of what is happening, relay that to your brain, and then you do something about it. Whether or not you'll suceed depends on if you can do all that fast enough.

A good example in fiction is Sasuke vs Lee. Sasuke's Sharingan allowed him to predict Lee's movements and what he'd do, but Lee was so fast that Sasuke's body couldn't keep up. He could not react to the information that he was recieving in time.

As such, I don't believe a speed blitz should be defined on whether or not Character A can percieve Character B at all but if Character A can actually react in any meaningful way.

Just because you can see the firing discharge of a gun and hear it, does not mean you get out of the bullet's flight path in time.

 

[Jobbo]

To the people who called Matt's argument a slippery slope fallacy, we really did have an everything equalized match with Goku vs Touma. Granted, it was moved to the fun and games board but still, there's some precedent.


Anyway, I don't have a problem with equalization as long as the match isn't added to their profiles, it's quite unfair to declare character A would beat character B when character B is basically fighting with broken legs.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

The value should be over 10.

A lot of people want it lower than 10. I feel like 10 is fine, since that balances the ones wanting it lower and the ones wanting it higher.

Also 10x just seems like a massive amount. A normal human outrunning a race car would probably be able to hard blitz you.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Assault - We'd be hit several times before we could even breathe or finish blinking after they start running from over 15 feet away xD!!!

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Iaptus If Hinokage cannot put down Gagamaru, then what you mentioned above is a stomp match.

techincally Hinokage won because of a stadium out but that's not applicable here. Really what I want to know is if that still counts as a blitz

 

[EdwardSuoh]

I agree with Matt, for whatever that's worth.

 

[Davidgumazon]

(page does not exist)

 

[Amexim]

So the majority (including me), agrees on the speed thing with Matt? Ok. It's probably best to move onto other things now, as most people who disagree do so on the merits of other specific things, despite Speed Equalized matches nerfing/buffing characters. Any stat altering matches shouldn't be placed as notable victories because it's not the character's normal stats. Any blitz is an obvious blitz, and any stomp is an obvious stomp, so there's no point in arguing that.

As for the values of Speed blitzes, I agree with the difference between normal human and subsonic, as well as saying to Yung that we can sort of do one of two things.

1. Apply this formula to anyone who blitzes. So not this one, I guess, because it can get kinda calc stacky?

Or 2. Recognize that a speed blitz in verse isn't indicative of any quantifiable amount per se, but of a clear indication that X character is superior to y characters unquantifiable.

 

[Ravianii]

What happens when characters have different kinds of speed? Such as the canon battle of Netero vs Meurem. Does speed equalized means that Meurem now stomps because his reaction speed is now much higher? Or does it mean Netero can now run at the same speed as meurem?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

What happens when characters have different kinds of speed? Such as the canon battle of Netero vs Meurem. Does speed equalized means that Meurem now stomps because his reaction speed is now much higher? Or does it mean Netero can now run at the same speed as meurem?

If Speed is equal, you ignore speed and reactions all together; they are completely equal.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

What I would like to ask is: now that we are sure 10x = blitz, at what point do countermeasures, such as AoE or mentally-triggered target abilities, stop working? 100x? At that point the guy can probably just get incapacitated before he even has a chance to employ countermeasures.

 

[KinkiestSins]

What I would like to ask is: now that we are sure 10x = blitz, at what point do countermeasures, such as AoE or mentally-triggered target abilities, stop working? 100x? At that point the guy can probably just get incapacitated before he even has a chance to employ countermeasures.

I think it is variable.

Some hax and AOE happen rather quickly, some instant and some have a 'cast time'

I think it should probably be a case by case basis.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Probably for the best, yes.

 

[Agnaa]

What I would like to ask is: now that we are sure 10x = blitz, at what point do countermeasures, such as AoE or mentally-triggered target abilities, stop working? 100x? At that point the guy can probably just get incapacitated before he even has a chance to employ countermeasures.

It depends on distance, reaction speed, and the nature of the ability itself.

There are some characters who have automatic mind manipulation. For them, they cannot be speed blitz'd unless the other combatant has a way to resist it.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Yeah that makes sense. Best for it to be treated as a case-by-case basis.

Also can someone update the SBA with DontTalk's suggestions for state of mind?

 

[Kaltias]

I can't now but I can open the page for you if you want

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Don't do it now; I'm about to go to work and would probably need it to be open for longer than is advised.

 

[SenshiDon]

So are we allowed to begin making speed unequalized threads as long as character A isn't up to 10x faster than character B?