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Standard Battle Assumptions: Speed Equalized and State of Mind
- Thread starter Assaltwaffle
- Start date
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This. SO much this in all honesty.Assaltwaffle said:
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Ryukama said:
I think it really depends.
If you put him up against say... Sanji, who is 'smart', shikamaru would be smarter.
But say..Tony Stark, then he would be 'dumber'
It is so nuanced, but I generally agree with the sentiment.
Intelligence can sometimes bridge the gap for a win imo.
Although the type of intelligence and what that entails vary wildly from verse to verse.
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That's not what I meant.
Although I'd say Shikamaru beats any given supergenius 9.9/10.
Although I'd say Shikamaru beats any given supergenius 9.9/10.
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Under what context does an 8-B kill a high-end 8-A and a 7-C with skill.
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The Everlasting said:
Not kill, but Usopp did hurt a Low 7-C luffy with prep time.
Although I get your point, I do think it is worthy to add (although it could probably just be PIS considering the circumstances)
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Kepekley23 said:
What else would you have meant by "Shikamaru is easily one of the smartest characters in fiction"?
I'd say Rick Sanchez, Ford Pines, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Brainiac, Accelerator etc. easily dwarf him. And that's not counting cosmic entities who overseer the multiverse, nigh-omniscients or omniscients, which fiction has an extraordinary abundance of.
In terms of sheer combat intelligence DC's Karate Kid makes him look untrained.
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He would lose to preschoolers in toaru a game of chess.Kepekley23 said:
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I would put Shikamaru above Tony, around the same level as Rick in raw intelligence and below Brainiac.
GoldenScorpions
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Shikamaru is certainly smart, but he needs some time before formulating a strategy and tends to stay still in doing so. Recall his fight against Temari in the Chuunin Exam.
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- Thread starter
- #91
Guys can we not derail about intelligence?
We need to truly establish when speed should be equalized. Right now we have no defined number of difference or list of abilities that can't be present (abilities that counter speed, such as AoE hax or the like) for it to be a blitz.
We need to truly establish when speed should be equalized. Right now we have no defined number of difference or list of abilities that can't be present (abilities that counter speed, such as AoE hax or the like) for it to be a blitz.
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Shikamaru has better planning and combat strategy feats than most characters, but he is far from one of the smartest characters in fiction, lol.
And even in Combat Strategy he is outclassed. Warhammer has dozens of characters who make him look like an unexperience toddler when it comes to that.
And even in Combat Strategy he is outclassed. Warhammer has dozens of characters who make him look like an unexperience toddler when it comes to that.
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Oh, certainly. Shikamaru is a lazy-ass.
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@Ever
He planned the course of entire battle before he even met them, and the only reason he didn't kill both alone was because the 7-C had an ability he wasn't aware of.
He planned the course of entire battle before he even met them, and the only reason he didn't kill both alone was because the 7-C had an ability he wasn't aware of.
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Assaltwaffle said:
I still say that x100 difference matches can be won by the slower on numerous occasions. But if the slower isn't much haxed, between x10 and x100 would be where I would place it.
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Assalt is right there's more pressing matters right now.
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I feel like something that often gets forgotten about in regards to speed is that characters very rarely move continuously at their very maximum speed. That's one of the main ways how consistently slower characters are able to tag them...
Regarding speed-blitzing, well, real-life and fiction don't really tend to always line up in that regard. Clearly, even small (notable) advantages can make a big difference in a match, but it seems apparent to me that characters with some very notable difference in speed are still generally able to keep up with one another, consistently, in works of fiction, so a decently large speed gap should be fine before it's considered a blitz.
Regarding speed-blitzing, well, real-life and fiction don't really tend to always line up in that regard. Clearly, even small (notable) advantages can make a big difference in a match, but it seems apparent to me that characters with some very notable difference in speed are still generally able to keep up with one another, consistently, in works of fiction, so a decently large speed gap should be fine before it's considered a blitz.
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Shikamaru's an immensely skilled ninja and martial artist. But when on earth has he done anything remotely close to what Tony or especially Rick can do with their tech? Or anything that could qualify him as "easily one of the smartest characters in fiction"? Maybe he's a better martial artist than those guys, but not overall smarter. Shikamaru's not even that impressive in the grand scheme of fictional martial artists. Such as DC's Karate Kid.Kepekley23 said:
GoldenScorpions
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The speed difference that results in a blitz would only apply to reaction/combat speed, right? Because, if 2 characters have Hypersonic+ combat speed, but one has Supersonic+ movement speed and the other has Transonic movement speed, I wouldn't see it as a stomp, as both can react to the other.
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That's derail by now.
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Combat speed is the big one here. If the other person just can't be hit but something that isn't AoE, and the other person just doesn't have any AoE, the faster character won't lose.GoldenScorpions said:
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@GoldenScorpions ^^That same thing happened to me when I posted
Anyway, like I said before...the difference in speed doesn't actually need to be that large to constitute a speed blitz. Which is why I'm all for equalizing speed (It makes things less confusing).
An ap gap is much easier to close than a speed gap.
Edit: I Don't know if it should be in SBA though.
Anyway, like I said before...the difference in speed doesn't actually need to be that large to constitute a speed blitz. Which is why I'm all for equalizing speed (It makes things less confusing).
An ap gap is much easier to close than a speed gap.
Edit: I Don't know if it should be in SBA though.
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Been meaning to address this one for a while now. I don't have time to sift through all the replies to this thread, so forgive me if someone's brought it up already.Dragonmasterxyz said:
Subsonic is otherwise known as "Faster than the Eye". The lowest end of it is a grand total of four tiers above Normal Human, and the exact number of that lowest end is roughly 4.45 times that of the highest end of Normal Human. It is 6.86 times faster than the lowest end.
With this, we can assume that for there to be a blitz where one character cannot see the other's movements, there needs to be a 4.45 to 6.86 difference between their speed ratings at the very least. Going by this, the majority of speed tiers that aren't named "Massively FTL+" are not wide enough for there to be a full-scale blitz between two characters, and even characters that are two speed tiers apart would be capable of fighting each other properly in most cases.
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Combat Smarts > Book Smarts in a vs match.
That wasn't my slippery slope btw, as I said I was assessing it as I've seen it brought up before. I'm neutral either way.
I'd rather DT's suggestion above anything else in this thread. That's what I agree with.
That wasn't my slippery slope btw, as I said I was assessing it as I've seen it brought up before. I'm neutral either way.
I'd rather DT's suggestion above anything else in this thread. That's what I agree with.
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- #108
We cannot have a tiny difference in speed constitute a blitz. If only 25% difference was enough to qualify a blitz, cats would be untouchable gods in comparison to humans with their 14 m/s speed.YungManzi said:
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@Assaltwaffle
As I said, fiction is different. Just because a character can speed blitz a reletivistic character, that wouldn't make them FTL. When it comes to superhuman speed any difference at all can constitute a speed blitz (As long as it's a fair gap like mach 130 and mach 200) , this is why battles of speed are so hard to deal with.
As I said, fiction is different. Just because a character can speed blitz a reletivistic character, that wouldn't make them FTL. When it comes to superhuman speed any difference at all can constitute a speed blitz (As long as it's a fair gap like mach 130 and mach 200) , this is why battles of speed are so hard to deal with.
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I don't even see how that's a good argument.
The above two responses basically boil down to "Speed scaling doesn't work that way because that's not how we've been handling it", which is a poor way of looking at it if I ever saw one, seeing as the wiki as a whole has been forced to replace its methods with qualitatively better ones numerous times in the past.
The above two responses basically boil down to "Speed scaling doesn't work that way because that's not how we've been handling it", which is a poor way of looking at it if I ever saw one, seeing as the wiki as a whole has been forced to replace its methods with qualitatively better ones numerous times in the past.
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- #111
It really isn't that hard, actually. A 200 can't blitz a 130. They aren't even 2 times difference yet, just a 45% gap between them. They can have an advantage in speed, but being completely untrackable to the eye of the 130? Not at all.
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We all know cats are gods tho tbh
Cat Transcendence- limitless
Cat Transcendence- limitless
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- Thread starter
- #113
So are we OK with 10x being a solid point of being too fast?
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I'd say that's fair.
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Adding my 2cents because its all I can afford. I just want to say I agree with Matthew's input on the subject.
Time to stomp threads.
Time to stomp threads.
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Heresy. Are you going against the Dogforce?
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- #117
So basically look at the Speed tiers. A baseline Supersonic+ can't be blitzed until the opponent hits baseline High Hypersonic, a baseline High Hypersonic can't be blitzed until the opponent is 1/4th of the way through MHS, and so on and so forth.
Also guys, try to look at the calculations for the speeds, if applicable. Don't assume a character to be baseline unless they have no calc attached to them. For example, assuming Absa to be baseline Subsonic would be inaccurate, as that would assume a near baseline Transonic could blitz her. In actuality she is a decent bit into Subsonic, and couldn't be blitz until a decent way through Supersonic.
Also, she is a great example for this, since she has an area of effect MHS+ attack in her lightning, so someone with 10x speed doesn't even instantly win against her, since she can unleash lightning to deal with the threat.
Also guys, try to look at the calculations for the speeds, if applicable. Don't assume a character to be baseline unless they have no calc attached to them. For example, assuming Absa to be baseline Subsonic would be inaccurate, as that would assume a near baseline Transonic could blitz her. In actuality she is a decent bit into Subsonic, and couldn't be blitz until a decent way through Supersonic.
Also, she is a great example for this, since she has an area of effect MHS+ attack in her lightning, so someone with 10x speed doesn't even instantly win against her, since she can unleash lightning to deal with the threat.
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- #119
I really don't think it is too large, YungManzi.
Matt would want it to be higher than that, but we have several members being OK with it coming in at 10 times.
We are not calling a 25% difference a blitz, because that is clearly not accurate. If a boxer is 25% faster than his opponent, he will have an advantage, but he will still absolutely be touchable.
Matt would want it to be higher than that, but we have several members being OK with it coming in at 10 times.
We are not calling a 25% difference a blitz, because that is clearly not accurate. If a boxer is 25% faster than his opponent, he will have an advantage, but he will still absolutely be touchable.
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this is kinda idiotic. if we have a subsonic character that's 9-a fight someone who is ftl but is 9-c, then the speed equalization just gave away the fight to the 1st character.
