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Tensura speed: immeasurable?!

Berga14

Berga14

151
67
Hi everyone, this is my first thread so I hope to be spared if I make any mistakes.


What I ask to you all:

  • Don't derail the crt.
  • If possible write everything in one comment.
  • Agree with what you can and explain why you disagree if you do.

Some explanation for the terms/context in this thread:


  1. IP = Information Particle, Infos = Informations, DL = Digital Lifeform.
  2. About IPs' unique characteristic and speed: IPs resist time stop because they are completely unaffected by time and space and so, they don't care if time is stopped or not.
  3. There isn't an exact description about how IPs and infos work so i will present the main model that describe the action of "transmitting infos" (A = infos):
    • IPs are container for Infos. IP moves to the next IP following the will of the DL: IP¹[A] ---> IP²[ ] → IP¹[A] IP²[ ] → IP¹[ ] IP²[A]


Let's start:


First of all: A Digital Lifeform is a kind of Spiritual Lifeform which was able to turn is own material body into IP, thanks to IP unique charatteristics he is able to move in the suspended world (time stop). IPs' speed is fixed so normal IPs' speed = IPs' speed in DL's body.


At which speed IPs move?



Is IPs' movement physical movement or an spatial/temporal ability?


  • Is always addressed as a physical movement not as a teleport or any kind of spatial/temporal ability. (During the entire LN spatial abilities are always addressed as such, so it's very unlikely that the autor made an exception, especially given the complexity of the topic)
  • Is paragonated to a physical phenomenon
  • The autor's coiche of words leads to think of it as a physical movement
  • Here is sayd that IPs fly around, IPs are being moved and the words lead to think to physical movement. This scan also make more context for the previous scan.
  • Here IPs movement is paragonate to normal movement.
  • Here, even thougth the context isn't exactly the speed of IP, logic leads us to think that it isn't a spatial ability.
  • Chloe and Micheal move. (Digital Lifeforms can attack and defend at this speed, even non-DL's can attack at this speed by controlling IP)

Now some questions in past crts:


  • "Isn't this just FTL?"
    • Answer: Explaining that IP's speed exceeds SOL means that IP violates the upper speed limit of the theory of relativity, but this does not mean that IP's time travel achievements can only be explained by violating the upper speed limit of its relativity. There are several main reasons for this, these reasons are that even users of thought acceleration (an ability that accelerates the perception speed of characters to a level that can understand attacks traveling at the speed of light) cannot perceive the IP's information transmission speed despite having FTL perception speed, and Ciel indicates that IP can transmit information to any point in time with 0 time difference/delay. These reasons suggest that the speed of IP is not limited by the basic speed of physical movement, that is, the basic FTL speed, which violates the upper speed limit of relativity.
  • "Draguel moves without moving anything but every speed will lead to a movement of something (including information particles) so this isn't a speed"
    • Answer: This isn't about speed, is about the suspended world that stops everything.
  • "Resisting time stop doesn't give infinite speed"
    • Answer: A time stop can be resisted by sheer speed or with resistence. Here the IP have kinda both, still this isn't important because IPs have a speed regardless of the time stop.

  • "Just sending something back in time isn't immisurable speed" (About Rimuru and Shuna feat)
    • Answer: True, but we need to understand how this feat was possible and here we have 2 main options: 1) Rimuru sent infos to Shuna and IPs have stataments of being able to reach any point in time. 2) Rimuru used some kind of time manip. ability. An ability that was never mentioned, without any kind of proof or stataments. (I think is quite obvious which of the 2 is more reliable)
  • "Isn't this just an unique abilitie of IPs more than a speed?"
    • Answer: IPs' unique abilitie is: not be influenced by the situation of time and space (time stopped or not) and thanks to that they can move at this speed. Their unique characteristic and speed are related but aren't the same thing. (Something like this)

Conclusion:

immeasurable attack speed with information particles based attacks

immeasurable travel speed and perception speed with digital lifeforms physiology


Thanks for reading and thanks to @CodeCCLL and @Astral_Trinity439 for helping.


Here a list of all DL's and the volumes where they became a DL/that tell us that they were a DL:


  • From Vol 12: Chloe and Guy.
  • From Vol 19: Velzard, Michael and Rimuru
  • From Vol 20: Milim and Feldway
  • From Vol 21: Ultima, Dragguel, Shion, Veldora and Luminous
  • Veldenava


Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa and LordGriffin1000

Neutral:

Disagree:
 
Last edited:
Isn't this just infinite speed + time travel?

There is no IP context this "moves" but "Transferring".. by analogy IP sends from pointA to pointB. Technically, the IP at point B only needs to receive information from point A.

This is different if the IP at point A moves to point B.
 
Berga14 said:
Hi everyone, this is my first thread so I hope to be spared if I make any mistakes.


What I ask to you all:

  • Don't derail the crt.
  • If possible write everything in one comment.
  • Agree with what you can and explain why you disagree if you do.

Some explanation for the terms/context in this thread:


  1. IP = Information Particle, Infos = Informations, DL = Digital Lifeform.
  2. About IPs' unique characteristic and speed: IPs resist time stop because they are completely unaffected by time and space and so, they don't care if time is stopped or not.
  3. There isn't an exact description about how IPs and infos work so i will present the main model that describe the action of "transmitting infos" (A = infos):
    • IPs are container for Infos. IP moves to the next IP following the will of the DL: IP¹[A] ---> IP²[ ] → IP¹[A] IP²[ ] → IP¹[ ] IP²[A]


Let's start:


First of all: A Digital Lifeform is a kind of Spiritual Lifeform which was able to turn is own material body into IP, thanks to IP unique charatteristics he is able to move in the suspended world (time stop). IPs' speed is fixed so normal IPs' speed = IPs' speed in DL's body.


At which speed IPs move?



Is IPs' movement physical movement or an spatial/temporal ability?


  • Is always addressed as a physical movement not as a teleport or any kind of spatial/temporal ability. (During the entire LN spatial abilities are always addressed as such, so it's very unlikely that the autor made an exception, especially given the complexity of the topic)
  • Is paragonated to a physical phenomenon
  • The autor's coiche of words leads to think of it as a physical movement
  • Here is sayd that IPs fly around, IPs are being moved and the words lead to think to physical movement. This scan also make more context for the previous scan.
  • Here IPs movement is paragonate to normal movement.
  • Here, even thougth the context isn't exactly the speed of IP, logic leads us to think that it isn't a spatial ability.
  • Chloe and Micheal move. (Digital Lifeforms can attack and defend at this speed, even non-DL's can attack at this speed by controlling IP)

Now some questions in past crts:


  • "Isn't this just FTL?"
    • Answer: Explaining that IP's speed exceeds SOL means that IP violates the upper speed limit of the theory of relativity, but this does not mean that IP's time travel achievements can only be explained by violating the upper speed limit of its relativity. There are several main reasons for this, these reasons are that even users of thought acceleration (an ability that accelerates the perception speed of characters to a level that can understand attacks traveling at the speed of light) cannot perceive the IP's information transmission speed despite having FTL perception speed, and Ciel indicates that IP can transmit information to any point in time with 0 time difference/delay. These reasons suggest that the speed of IP is not limited by the basic speed of physical movement, that is, the basic FTL speed, which violates the upper speed limit of relativity.
  • "Draguel moves without moving anything but every speed will lead to a movement of something (including information particles) so this isn't a speed"
    • Answer: This isn't about speed, is about the suspended world that stops everything.
  • "Resisting time stop doesn't give infinite speed"
    • Answer: A time stop can be resisted by sheer speed or with resistence. Here the IP have kinda both, still this isn't important because IPs have a speed regardless of the time stop.

  • "Just sending something back in time isn't immisurable speed" (About Rimuru and Shuna feat)
    • Answer: True, but we need to understand how this feat was possible and here we have 2 main options: 1) Rimuru sent infos to Shuna and IPs have stataments of being able to reach any point in time. 2) Rimuru used some kind of time manip. ability. An ability that was never mentioned, without any kind of proof or stataments. (I think is quite obvious which of the 2 is more reliable)
  • "Isn't this just an unique abilitie of IPs more than a speed?"
    • Answer: IPs' unique abilitie is: not be influenced by the situation of time and space (time stopped or not) and thanks to that they can move at this speed. Their unique characteristic and speed are related but aren't the same thing. (Something like this)

Conclusion:


Immeasurable Speed (All Types) (Via Digital Lifeform Physiology and IP's manipulation)


For all DL.


Immeasurable Attack Speed (Via IP's manipulation)


For all characters that are able to control IP but unable to turn into a DL.


Thanks for reading and thanks to @CodeCCLL and @Astral_Trinity439 for helping.


Here a list of all DL's and the volumes where they became a DL/that tell us that they were a DL:


  • From Vol 12: Chloe and Guy.
  • From Vol 19: Velzard, Michael and Rimuru
  • From Vol 20: Milim and Feldway
  • From Vol 21: Ultima, Dragguel, Shion, Veldora and Luminous
  • Veldenava
Click to expand...
honestly there seems to be more arguments for infinite speed than immeasurable
 
Arzzz said:
Isn't this just infinite speed + time travel?
Click to expand...
karo_senpaii said:
honestly there seems to be more arguments for infinite speed than immeasurable
Click to expand...
Berga14 said:
Click to expand...
Especially the fact that the information in the last scan is transmitted through space-time by information particles makes me personally think that this is an immeasurable speed.
Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured.
Click to expand...
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Isn’t there already another thread for this upgrade going on?
Click to expand...
Previous thread was pretty messy, in fact many abilities that were just time travel were used as an argument for immeasurable speed. Some of the arguments for immeasurable speed in thread (Spiritual Lifeforms having immeasurable speed by jumping through space-time, going to the end of space-time, a future where the world destroyed) were accepted in another thread as Spiritual Lifeforms having time travel and dimensional travel. This thread is just about the speed of information particles and the nature of Digital Lifeforms.
Berga14 said:
The OP got banned and it was quite chaotic
Click to expand...
Also this.
 
CodeCCLL said:
Previous thread was pretty messy, in fact many abilities that were just time travel were used as an argument for immeasurable speed. Some of the arguments for immeasurable speed in thread (Spiritual Lifeforms having immeasurable speed by jumping through space-time, going to the end of space-time, a future where the world destroyed) were accepted in another thread as Spiritual Lifeforms having time travel and dimensional travel. This thread is just about the speed of information particles and the nature of Digital Lifeforms.

Also this.
Click to expand...
a lot of the arguments on that thread didn't exactly work but this one I do agree
 
Arzzz said:
Isn't this just infinite speed + time travel?

There is no IP context this "moves" but "Transferring".. by analogy IP sends from pointA to pointB. Technically, the IP at point B only needs to receive information from point A.

This is different if the IP at point A moves to point B.
Click to expand...
their speed is movement based via moving IP, where IP can move across time
 
I will back up your explanation about the Theory Relativity because it wasn’t enough.
You don’t need to surpass the speed of light to travel to the past, just the speed of light.

Everything that has mass cannot reach the speed of light.

Time will be relative/imaginary to the object.

Information Particle haven’t exceeded the speed of Light.
“それは、凄まじいの一言だった。

　観戦していて判明した事実だが、『〝情報子〟の移動速度は一定である』ようだ。

　会話が成立していたし、視覚の反応速度も一律だった。これは〝万物が光速を超えることはできない〟のと同じくらい、明確な物理現象なのだった。

　それならば何故、〝情報子〟は光速を超えているのか？

　これ、速度が超えてるんじゃないんだよね。” (vol 19)
Click to expand...
DeepTL
It was, in a word, terrific.

It is a fact that we discovered while watching the battle, but it seems that 'the speed of movement of the "information child" is constant'.

Conversations were taking place, and the speed of visual reactions was also uniform.This is as clear a physical phenomenon as "everything cannot exceed the speed of light".

If that is the case, why is the "informant" exceeding the speed of light?

It's not that the speed exceeds the speed.
Click to expand...

Information particles have mass even if it’s close to zero.
As I worried about what to do, Chronoa suddenly made an unexpected proposal.

An ‘information particle’ was a substance smaller than even ‘spiritrons,’ and was close to having no mass at all. All matter in the world had to contain ‘information particles’ (vol 11)
Click to expand...
Information has mass and doesn’t surpass the speed of light, that’s why the Theory of Relativity cannot be used for information particles.

For time, which becomes relative/imaginary in information particles, it cannot be used because information particles can move in any conditions and their speed remains constant. At that moment, time is stopped, which means it can never be relative for information particles. It’s impossible to calculate or determine whether time is relative to information when time is stopped.
 
Rizkykarbit said:
Information Particle haven’t exceeded the speed of Light.

DeepTL
Click to expand...
Other Translate

"It was one word: tremendous.
　It was a fact that I discovered while watching the game, but it seems that 'the speed at which the "information child" moves is constant.
　Conversations were taking place, and the speed of visual response was also uniform.This is as clear a physical phenomenon as the fact that "everything cannot exceed the speed of light.
　Then why is the "informant" exceeding the speed of light?
　This is not a speed that is exceeded."
Click to expand...
 
Berga14 said:
Resisting time stop doesn't give infinite speed"
  • Answer: A time stop can be resisted by sheer speed or with resistence. Here the IP have kinda both, still this isn't important because IPs have a speed regardless of the time stop.
Click to expand...
No, it isn't, speed do not allow you to resist time stop:
1. Infinite speed is a speed that it so fast that time is frozen in the perspective of the character who perform infinite speed, but time not really stop, it is just the characters is so fast that time to them is frozen.
2. Now come to Immeasurable speed, the reason you can "resist" timestop with immeasurable speed is because that speed beyond the scope of what normal time stop can affect, you aren't resisting timestop, but rather it is the weakness of timestop, there is still timestop that can stop immeasurable speed though. So you saying IP can resist timestop via sheer speed is wrong, and IP somehow both have sheer speed to resist timestop and resistance to timestop is contradicting


Berga14 said:
Just sending something back in time isn't immisurable speed" (About Rimuru and Shuna feat)
  • Answer: True, but we need to understand how this feat was possible and here we have 2 main options: 1) Rimuru sent infos to Shuna and IPs have stataments of being able to reach any point in time. 2) Rimuru used some kind of time manip. ability. An ability that was never mentioned, without any kind of proof or stataments. (I think is quite obvious which of the 2 is more reliable)
Click to expand...
Counter-argument:
1. Yes it is, sending something to some points, or any point in time isn't Immeasurable speed, time travel related abilities, or having universe+ range and above is enough to achieve this kind of feat.
2. You don't need some unspecific, or unmentioned abilities, having enough range is all you need
By this logic, i could make every characters with universe+ range and above to have immeasurable speed, since with that kind of range, characters with their power and some abilities can affect thing at every points in time, literally that is the purpose of why such range rating exist


Berga14 said:
They trascend time and space and can transmit infos at any point in time.https://imgur.com/gallery/M7A1EZL
Click to expand...
Transcend time and space is.......a broad term especially in japanese media, it is either you exceed time and space to a higher level, or you move outside of time and space to time travel, etc....it isn't a really goos evidences nowaday, especially in vsbw where it get overused, but hey it still is a decent supporting evidence however
Berga14 said:
Rimuru, which is now at the end of time and space sent IP to Shuna which is in the past.
Click to expand...
send something to the past isn't denote immeasurable speed, and even if i combine this with transcend space-time statement above, doesn't make it point at immeasurable speed more


Anyway, i'm neutral, personally i think this is still a good presentation, but it missing some crucial points to make this more solid immeasurable, which is reaction and combat feats, most i see is statement like transcend space-time or send something to the past or some points in time which can be easily disregarded as time travel or range feat
 
Rizkykarbit said:
Information particle and Information are different now. Information doesn’t have mass, but Information particle do.
Click to expand...
vsbattles.com

Tensura Revision : Upgrade or Downgrade or both?

Disclaimer okay i successfully looked into all of slime feat and am starting to get a look into their various feats and all, here i will also clear some misunderstanding about the series the first misunderstanding obviously should be the Speed Tensura as a series is generally based at "Light...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Rizkykarbit said:
Neutral for combat, travel and reaction.
Click to expand...
It should at least get the travel speed, the basis of the revision is already based on the travel of information particles. You are right about combat and reaction speed, maybe a probable rating would be better because combat speed and reaction speed are based on the idea that the speeds at which Digital Lifeforms fight each other occur at immeasurable speeds and yes, there is nothing certain about this.
Vietthai96 said:
No, it isn't, speed do not allow you to resist time stop:
1. Infinite speed is a speed that it so fast that time is frozen in the perspective of the character who perform infinite speed, but time not really stop, it is just the characters is so fast that time to them is frozen.
2. Now come to Immeasurable speed, the reason you can "resist" timestop with immeasurable speed is because that speed beyond the scope of what normal time stop can affect, you aren't resisting timestop, but rather it is the weakness of timestop, there is still timestop that can stop immeasurable speed though. So you saying IP can resist timestop via sheer speed is wrong, and IP somehow both have sheer speed to resist timestop and resistance to timestop is contradicting

Counter-argument:
1. Yes it is, sending something to some points, or any point in time isn't Immeasurable speed, time travel related abilities, or having universe+ range and above is enough to achieve this kind of feat.
2. You don't need some unspecific, or unmentioned abilities, having enough range is all you need
By this logic, i could make every characters with universe+ range and above to have immeasurable speed, since with that kind of range, characters with their power and some abilities can affect thing at every points in time, literally that is the purpose of why such range rating exist
Click to expand...
Yes, if I created the crt, these would be the parts I would remove.
Vietthai96 said:
Anyway, i'm neutral, personally i think this is still a good presentation, but it missing some crucial points to make this more solid immeasurable, which is reaction and combat feats, most i see is statement like transcend space-time or send something to the past or some points in time which can be easily disregarded as time travel or range feat
Click to expand...
In terms of immeasurable combat and reaction speeds, there is no support proof for immeasurable speed. Only, there is the fact that only Digital Lifeforms can attack and defend against each other on the Suspended World, where time has stopped throughout the entire space-time continuum, and non-Digital Lifeforms can attack by manipulating information particles.
 
Vietthai96 said:
So you saying IP can resist timestop via sheer speed is wrong, and IP somehow both have sheer speed to resist timestop and resistance to timestop is contradicting
Click to expand...
I'm saying that IPs resist time stop, i don't care how they do it, t this isn't important at all. IPs have a speed regardless of time stop.

Vietthai96 said:
No, it isn't, speed do not allow you to resist time stop:
1. Infinite speed is a speed that it so fast that time is frozen in the perspective of the character who perform infinite speed, but time not really stop, it is just the characters is so fast that time to them is frozen.
Click to expand...
This entirely depends on the autor, this changes with the verse.
 
Vietthai96 said:
. Yes it is, sending something to some points, or any point in time isn't Immeasurable speed, time travel related abilities, or having universe+ range and above is enough to achieve this kind of feat.
Click to expand...
This is why i sayd "true" in the answer.

Vietthai96 said:
By this logic
Click to expand...
The logic: IP are able to transmit infos at any point in time and the feat is about someone in the past that receives IP by someone from the future = immisurable speed. Also Uni+ or higher range are from skills or haki and there isn't any mention/proof/stataments of those being used (also no skill or haki transmit IPs)
 
Vietthai96 said:
Transcend time and space is.......a broad term especially in japanese media, it is either you exceed time and space to a higher level, or you move outside of time and space to time travel, etc....it isn't a really goos evidences nowaday, especially in vsbw where it get overused, but hey it still is a decent supporting evidence however
Click to expand...
The important words aren't "trascend time and space"...
Vietthai96 said:
which is reaction and combat feats, most i see is statement like transcend space-time or send something to the past or some points in time which can be easily disregarded as time travel or range feat
Click to expand...
The act of "transmit infos" is a physical movement not an ability, there isn't anything that suggest some time travel.
As for attack speed.. that feat is attack speed
 
You’re wrong
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Actually, no, that’s a mistranslation. The og text says it doesn’t have any mass.
Click to expand...
Raw
それに関しては、シズさんの言葉を信じるとして。
上手く『無限牢獄』のエネルギーを制御しつつ、クロエとヒナタを救出するには──智
慧之王ラファエルで『無限牢獄』に干渉すればどうだろう?
完全に解除せず、その中身だけを探れば?
《否。今のままでは不可能です。最小単位である〝情報子〟への干渉権限がありません
》
智慧之王ラファエルでも、『無限牢獄』の解除は可能なのだと。だがしかし、その中に
封じられた情報への干渉権限がない為に、それ以上は何も出来ないのだそうだ。
勝手に復活したヴェルドラは、やはり特殊な事例に該当するらしい。
「わかった! じゃあ、その権限を委譲する。私クロエも同意するって言ってるから、 リムルの好きにしてくれていいよ!」
──えっ!? さてどうしたものかと悩んでいた俺に、クロノアが思わぬ提案をしてくれた。 〝霊子〟よりも極小で、質量が限りなくゼロに近い物質。それが〝情報子〟なのだと。 この世のあらゆる物質は、〝情報子〟を必ず含むのだという。
Click to expand...
DeepTL
As for that, I believe Shizu-san's words.
How can we rescue Chloe and Hinata while successfully controlling the energy of the "Infinite Prison"?
What if we interfere with the "Infinite Prison" with Raphael, the King of Huiyino?
What if we just search its contents without completely disarming it?
No.It's impossible as it is now.We don't have the authority to interfere with the smallest unit, the "Informant.
》
Even Raphael, the King of Wisdom, can disarm the "Infinite Prison.But, however, in that
He says that since he does not have the authority to interfere with the sealed information, he cannot do anything more.
It seems that Veldra, who revived on his own, is still a special case.
'I understand! Then, I'll delegate that authority.I, Chloe, said I agree, so you can do whatever you want to Rimuru!
What? As I was wondering what to do, Klonoa made an unexpected suggestion. A substance that is even smaller than a spirit child, and has a mass of almost zero.That's what an "informant" is. It is said that every substance in this world must contain "informants".
Click to expand...
There is no misstranslation here.
 
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