SSJ2 and SSJ3 Multipliers

[Omegabronic]

There is one big problem. SSJ and Kaioken are confirmed multipliers. If SSJ2 and 3 weren't multipliers , SSJ and Kaioken would eventually surpass SSJ2 and 3 as a power up depending on how high the base form is.

what would be the problem with Kaioken surpassing any transformation eventually? that would be true regardless of multipliers

in fact, this is already true, if goku were to do a kaioken times 60, he would be stronger than his ssj1 form

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

There is one big problem. SSJ and Kaioken are confirmed multipliers. If SSJ2 and 3 weren't multipliers , SSJ and Kaioken would eventually surpass SSJ2 and 3 as a power up depending on how high the base form is.

That's not really a problem. We acknowledge it is stronger. We just don't apply a hard multiplier, since we practically don't have a valid one (which is what's being debated).

 

[SirAlex09]

That's not really a problem. We acknowledge it is stronger. We just don't apply a hard multiplier, since we practically don't have a valid one (which is what's being debated).

So explain to me why the multiplier from the Super Exiciting Guide is wrong?

what would be the problem with Kaioken surpassing any transformation eventually? that would be true regardless of multipliers

in fact, this is already true, if goku were to do a kaioken times 60, he would be stronger than his ssj1 form

.....
What I meant is that if we assume that SSJ2 and 3 only add a fixed amount of power to the base form, multiplying power boosts would surpass them.

Let's assume you have a powerlevel of 1 and Kaioken is a 20x multiplier and SSJ2 gives you an additional 99 power level to your base form.

If your powerlevel is 1 , SSJ2 would be a better powerboost but if your powerlevel is 200 , Kaioken x20 would give you a bigger power boost

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So explain to me why the multiplier from the Super Exiciting Guide is wrong?

Not supported within the story imo, unlike Ssj1 via kaioken.

 

[Omegabronic]

.....
What I meant is that if we assume that SSJ2 and 3 only add a fixed amount of power to the base form, multiplying power boosts would surpass them.

which is true regardless, like, no one is saying that they don't multiply, they do, by how much it is unknown, also it is not like goku ever used kaioken with super sayan in cannon anyway, so the argument is kind of non sensical since it basis on something that never happened in the first place, like, let us take the super exiting guide's multipliers into consideration for a sec, super sayan 2 is 100x base? ok then, kaioken times 3 ssj1 goku would be stronger than ssj2 goku, ssj4 is 400x base? well, kaioken times 10x ssj1 goku would be stronger than ssj3 then, you see the problem in your argument? the "problem" you pressented remains regardless if we accept an number to the multipliers of ssj2 and 3, making it kind of null

Let's assume you have a powerlevel of 1 and Kaioken is a 20x multiplier and SSJ2 gives you an additional 99 power level to your base form.

If your powerlevel of 1 , SSJ2 would be a better powerboost but if your powerlevel is 200 , Kaioken x20 would give you a bigger power boost

kaioken varies depending on how many times it is used, so your example does not work at all

 

[SirAlex09]

Not supported within the story imo, unlike Ssj1 via kaioken.

?? XD

which is true regardless, like, no one is saying that they don't multiply, they do, by how much it is unknown, also it is not like goku ever used kaioken with super sayan in cannon anyway, so the argument is kind of non sensical since it basis on something that never happened in the first place, like, let us take the super exiting guide's multipliers into consideration for a sec, super sayan 2 is 100x base? ok then, kaioken times 3 ssj1 goku would be stronger than ssj2 goku, ssj4 is 400x base? well, kaioken times 10x ssj1 goku would be stronger than ssj3 then, you see the problem in your argument? the "problem" you pressented remains regardless if we accept an number to the multipliers of ssj2 and 3, making it kind of null


kaioken varies depending on how many times it is used, so your example does not work at all

This is pure comedy. Ngl xD I will unwatch before I type something passive aggressive or rude

 

[Omegabronic]

This is pure comedy. Ngl xD I will unwatch before I type something passive aggressive or rude

you know, the fact that you would feel the need to be rude at all is concerning, but oh well, you do you i guess

 

[AwkguyDB]

So we make a note that for scaling purposes we agree that SSJ2 (> x2 SSJ) and SSJ3 (> x2SSJ2) are acceptable lowballs for the forms as we acknowledge that the forms should be no less stronger than this. Logically they should be much higher but when we can’t find that at the moment we should absolutely accept a low-ball

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

nah, the only one that i saw doing something like that was byasura, the others didn't, lephyr didn't for a fact agreed with either, he is the one that disagrees almost completely, but i will not talk for him too much, he he definitely didn't agreed, medeus didn't agreed either, but he seems to disagree less than lephyr, but he still disagreed nonetheless, and finally, damage straight up disagreed, no question here, the only thing he said here is that he is against the proposal, he is the most clear cut, the only one that seemed to agree was byasura on the ssj2 multiplier, but that's it, ssj3 literally has no agreement, ssj2 has insufficient as of now.

Not going to waste my time trying to explain all the comments to you and end up making 7 pages, so I'll just say this once. Lephyr initially thought I was just assigning 2x based on them being stronger but unknown, I pointed out that I was using stated multipliers in guides and using a minimum lowball. Damage also thought I was just assigning based on being unknown, lephyr himself corrected him, neither of them said anything since, both are neutral at best. Both ByAsura and golden void agreed

that just means that he is stronger, how much? we don't know, we need explicit statements for multipliers, these are the rules

Except we have stated multipliers,which we used to make the lowball value, which is the entire point of this thread. This is the last I'll discuss this with you

 

[Omegabronic]

Not going to waste my time trying to explain all the comments to you and end up making 7 pages, so I'll just say this once. Lephyr initially thought I was just assigning 2x based on them being stronger but unknown, I pointed out that I was using stated multipliers in guides and using a minimum lowball. Damage also thought I was just assigning based on being unknown, lephyr himself corrected him, neither of them said anything since, both are neutral at best. Both ByAsura and golden void agreed

Both never changed their positions in regard of the thread, unless they say that they are neutral you can't put them at this position because of your own interpretation, they disagreed ans didn't said anything about their instance changing afterwards

Except we have stated multipliers,which we used to make the lowball value, which is the entire point of this thread. This is the last I'll discuss this with you

That are not supported by the series, you are suggesting 2x ssj2 ssj3, which is not the stated multiplier anyway

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Bump

 

[DivineAura44]

What exactly is the problem with 2x for SSJ2? The fact Gohan was too strong?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

What exactly is the problem with 2x for SSJ2? The fact Gohan was too strong?

Yeah we’ve already said 2x would be used as a lowball

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

What exactly is the problem with 2x for SSJ2? The fact Gohan was too strong?

Apparently the issue is, some feel it was too low, which is why I am wondering why it's such an issue for those same people to accept it as a low ball figure

Same with ssj3, it was given as a x4, nothing actually debunks this, but a X2 as an absolute minimum was suggested

Most mods who joined the conversation have accepted these minimum multipliers tho

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Yeah we’ve already said 2x would be used as a lowball

How long do we wait before applying it?
Does a mod have to do it....or?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

How long do we wait before applying it?
Does a mod have to do it....or?

Not enough staff agreement. You straight up can't (yet).

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Not enough staff agreement. You straight up can't (yet).

What's the minimum needed? 3?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

What's the minimum needed? 3?

Correct.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Correct.

So, one more

What about you? What issue do you have with the 2x minimum?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So, one more

What about you? What issue do you have with the 2x minimum?

I've already stated my view.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

No multiplier is given in the series proper, and the ones given in the guide are clearly bs. As such, no multiplier can be used.

I've already stated my view.

So you said you’re against it because SSJ2 seems stronger than 2x multiplier it’s stated to be what do you think is the issue with 2x being a lowball?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The issue is, the site standards are clear to me. Without a proper statement on the series, and without a consistent application, no multiplier should be used. My opinion is that this is one of those cases.

 

[KingTempest]

Is there ever a statement of SSJ2 and/or SSJ3 ever multiplying power?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Is there ever a statement of SSJ2 and/or SSJ3 ever multiplying power?

Nothing specific. It's simply "this is a higher form" iirc. The multipliers are only ever given on a guidebook.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Is there ever a statement of SSJ2 and/or SSJ3 ever multiplying power?

Zamasu witnessing SSJ2: "His Ki has flared up 10s of times over."

 

[KingTempest]

Iirc that specific guidebook for SSJ2&3 ain't canon

So unless there's no multiplier statement, you can't even assume there's a multiplier

Even 1/2 of SSJ2 Gohan being > SSJ wouldn't even be scaleable to others

 

[KingTempest]

Zamasu witnessing SSJ2: "His Ki has flared up 10s of times over."

Yeah, cause SSJ2 > SSJ > 10s of times

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The issue is, the site standards are clear to me. Without a proper statement on the series, and without a consistent application, no multiplier should be used. My opinion is that this is one of those cases.

SSJ is only stated to be a 50x multiplier in guides as well never in the series

Is there ever a statement of SSJ2 and/or SSJ3 ever multiplying power?

Not sure th exact wording but I think the super exciting guide says SSJ is 50x ssj2 is 100x and ssj3 is 400x

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

SSJ is only stated to be a 50x multiplier in guides as well never in the series

However, we have a consistent point of comparison in Kaio Ken vs 50% Freeza, which lines up perfectly with the guide, unlike both Ssj2 and 3's case.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm pretty sure SSJ even has a 50x power level difference too in support of it

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Basically, Ssj1 has support from the manga/show itself. The other two doesn't. That's the difference.

 

[AwkguyDB]

What's the status on El Manga Legendario and its multipliers? Do we disregard that guidebook on this wiki?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

However, we have a consistent point of comparison in Kaio Ken vs 50% Freeza, which lines up perfectly with the guide, unlike both Ssj2 and 3's case.

Well ssj2 isn’t inconsistent besides the Gohan fight and in that fight Gohan had a rage boost and those have been shown to boost tons of power and the difference in power between Ssj and ssj2 don’t seem big even in Super also I forgot to mention we do have this statement

Basically, Ssj1 has support from the manga/show itself. The other two doesn't. That's the difference.

Zamasu witnessing SSJ2: "His Ki has flared up 10s of times over."

Tens of times over
10^1 = 10
10^2 = 100
10^3 = 1000



.

 

[Omegabronic]

Tens of times over
10^1 = 10
10^2 = 100
10^3 = 1000

super sayan 1 is 50x so you can't use that logic since goku was using super sayan 1 in the video showed

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

super sayan 1 is 50x so you can't use that logic since goku was using super sayan 1 in the video showed

Bro what? His hair spiked up and he has lightning around him that’s ssj2 gang

 

[KingTempest]

Tens of times over
10^1 = 10
10^2 = 100
10^3 = 1000

Fake ass mathematicians

Tens would just be multiple 10s. How 20 is 2 tens, 30 is 3 tens, etc.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Fake ass mathematicians

Tens would just be multiple 10s. How 20 is 2 tens, 30 is 3 tens, etc.

Tens of times sets of ten multiplying

 

[Omegabronic]

Bro what? His hair spiked up and he has lightning around him that’s ssj2 gang

nope, whis says that it is just super sayan

 

[AwkguyDB]

Don't matter my point was that SSJ2 was some form of multiple of tens beyond Base form that's greater than 50x. At least 100x Base would still fit into that category.

 

[Omegabronic]

Don't matter my point was that SSJ2 was some form of multiple of tens beyond Base form that's greater than 50x. At least 100x Base would still fit into that category.

if the font for the "tens of times" is actually talking about regular super saiyan then it does matter