SSJ2 and SSJ3 Multipliers

[Padaruyos]

In case of SS2 Gohan, we see that Gohan at half-power (one armed too btw) beating SPC. So full power SS2 Gohan should be 2x stronger than that. While previously, SS1 Gohan can't beat PC. So we both have a scaling chain and a numerical increase.

SS1 Gohan < Perfect Cell < Super Perfect Cell < Half-Power One-Armed SS2 Gohan <(2x) Full-Power SS2 Gohan

While with SS3, we only have a scaling chain to work with.
SS2 Goku < Fat Buu < Kid Buu = SS3 Goku.
SS2 Goku = SS2 F.Trunks < SS3 Goku
SS Gotenks < Super Buu < SS3 Gotenks

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Well, SSJ2 as mentioned above is clearly a lot higher than simply 2x for AP, and as for speed I'm not sure. But I can guarantee that there really is 0 basis for a SSJ3 multiplier relative to SSJ2 we just know that it's noticeably stronger but how much stronger cannot be properly calculated.

Back to this, it was given as 4x ssj2, in the same guide that gave ssj2 as 2x ssj

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will note, that the Android saga moment is the only example I can think of where SSJ2 is treated like a 100x jump. Though Buu saga basically makes it unknown whether or not it is a big jump only that Adult Gohan's PL compared to his Teen Gohan period was, same base form power, same SSJ1 power, but SSJ2 power was said to be much weaker. Likewise, it's also hard to tell how strong Goku and Vegeta were in their regular SSJ1 forms other than they were considerably stronger than Gohan's respective forms prior to Z sword training. Their SSJ2 forms were of course a lot stronger than SSJ2 Teen Gohan. But as of DBS, SSJ2 hardly seems overwhelmingly stronger than SSJ1 given that Goku was able to you with SSJ2 Caulifa, but he went all the way to SSJ3 when SSJ2 Kale stepped in to assist. But long story short, there really is no consistent way to judge SSJ2 as an amp, though I know that SSJ form has 50x applying to the regular version where as things like Ascended SSJ, Ultra SSJ (Which is wonky given it's a giant power durability amp but actually slower than regular SSJ1), and SSJ mastered which is probably more than 50x power and speed wise. Then SSJ2 is noticably stronger and faster than SSJ1 mastered, but the gap isn't entirely consistent.

SSJ3 basically doesn't really have any real basis other than we know Goku would have stomped Majin Vegeta had he used it against him. So it is a big jump compared to SSJ2, but unsure if 4x is a fool proof consistent multiplier.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

I think 4x doesn't work at all.

2x is technically inaccurate, and only the product of a low-ball via statements. The guide is provably untrustworthy, hence why we use Daizenshuu and Toriyama for the 50x multiplier.

Only reason I mention 4x was because of the guide, but if the entire guide can't be taken as facts alone, then that's okay


But as for the 2x, that's the most accurate value we can get without assuming. It is objective that both forms are at least 2x
It's far more accurate than say.. completely ignore the forms, which is basically saying that the forms have no amp and are just fashion choices

We use conservative calcs all the time so that accuracy isn't sacrificed for power levels

2x is very conservative, and we know the forms go higher, so them being the minimum, should he allowed

 

[Padaruyos]

Back to this, it was given as 4x ssj2, in the same guide that gave ssj2 as 2x ssj

Guides like that aren't really usable for anything beyond supporting evidence. IMO SS2 being a bare minimum 2x multiplier has a pretty good leg to stand on since SS2 Gohan at half-power outbeams SPC while with SS1 he can't beat PC. But, just because one particular statement from a guide is acceptable and consistent, doesn't mean the entire guide is. But it does make the guide a bit more credible. So we can't really say SS3 has a 4x multiplier just because SS2's 2x multiplier is correct, which technically it isn't since it's just a lowball we can use.

 

[Eseseso]

Didn't one guidebook say SSJ Grade 3 is a 10x boost?

 

[ByAsura]

Only reason I mention 4x was because of the guide, but if the entire guide can't be taken as facts alone, then that's okay


But as for the 2x, that's the most accurate value we can get without assuming. It is objective that both forms are at least 2x
It's far more accurate than say.. completely ignore the forms, which is basically saying that the forms have no amp and are just fashion choices

We use conservative calcs all the time so that accuracy isn't sacrificed for power levels

2x is very conservative, and we know the forms go higher, so them being the minimum, should he allowed

Then my final, absolute opinion I'll give here is that, if the site rules are fine with it, we should definitely apply the 2x multiplier for Saiyans that don't have direct scaling with Cell Saga Gohan.

I'm unfollowing.

 

[Padaruyos]

Didn't one guidebook say SSJ Grade 3 is a 10x boost?

Oh that's El Manga Legendario. It's one of the lesser credible guides IIRC.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

I will note, that the Android saga moment is the only example I can think of where SSJ2 is treated like a 100x jump. Though Buu saga basically makes it unknown whether or not it is a big jump only that Adult Gohan's PL compared to his Teen Gohan period was, same base form power, same SSJ1 power, but SSJ2 power was said to be much weaker.

Are we sure his base and ssj were the same? Wasn't he said to be overall weaker?

Likewise, it's also hard to tell how strong Goku and Vegeta were in their regular SSJ1 forms other than they were considerably stronger than Gohan's respective forms prior to Z sword training. Their SSJ2 forms were of course a lot stronger than SSJ2 Teen Gohan. But as of DBS, SSJ2 hardly seems overwhelmingly stronger than SSJ1 given that Goku was able to you with SSJ2 Caulifa, but he went all the way to SSJ3 when SSJ2 Kale stepped in to assist.

Controlled Kale seemed a lot stronger than caulifa tho, she was able to take an attack from ssjg Goku which oneshotted caulifa. Ssj3 also looked like overkill, Goku's Aura alone basically negged their attacks. Wasn't caulifa actually matching Goku 1v1 as SSJ2s untill kale then stepped in?

But long story short, there really is no consistent way to judge SSJ2 as an amp, though I know that SSJ form has 50x applying to the regular version where as things like Ascended SSJ, Ultra SSJ (Which is wonky given it's a giant power durability amp but actually slower than regular SSJ1), and SSJ mastered which is probably more than 50x power and speed wise. Then SSJ2 is noticably stronger and faster than SSJ1 mastered, but the gap isn't entirely consistent.

SSJ3 basically doesn't really have any real basis other than we know Goku would have stomped Majin Vegeta had he used it against him. So it is a big jump compared to SSJ2, but unsure if 4x is a fool proof consistent multiplier.

x2 is the minimum being proposed
The x4 would only be considered of the statement from the guide was accepted AND if nothing in the show debunked that

But x2 is the main proposal

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Guides like that aren't really usable for anything beyond supporting evidence. IMO SS2 being a bare minimum 2x multiplier has a pretty good leg to stand on since SS2 Gohan at half-power outbeams SPC while with SS1 he can't beat PC. But, just because one particular statement from a guide is acceptable and consistent, doesn't mean the entire guide is. But it does make the guide a bit more credible. So we can't really say SS3 has a 4x multiplier just because SS2's 2x multiplier is correct, which technically it isn't since it's just a lowball we can use.

Yea, I understand. I mean, i suppose the strongest evidence in the show would be ssj3 Goku nothing he could have killed fat Buu, but ssj2 Vegeta who was completely equal to Goku couldn't kill him even with his suicide blast which scales well above his own stats. But aside from that ssj3 was basically just treated as something that could trash ssj2, but I don't think anything actually showed that x4 is too big a boost.

But as I said,
*2 is the MAIN proposal for a minimum

But if the x4 is noted to also he valid, that's all well and good, but that won't be a minimum, unless evidence comes up later to say x4 is smaller

 

[Padaruyos]

Actually, Goku turning SS3 against Kale and Caulifla could be used as evidence for SS3 being a minimum of a 2x increase over SS2. SS2 Goku is capable of fighting equally with SS2 Caulifla in a 1V1. Kale is stronger than or equal to Caulifla, and SS3 Goku blocked attacks from each of them at the same time using just his aura when transforming into SS3

 

[SlendVeny]

Actually, Goku turning SS3 against Kale and Caulifla could be used as evidence for SS3 being a minimum of a 2x increase over SS2. SS2 Goku is capable of fighting equally with SS2 Caulifla in a 1V1. Kale is stronger than or equal to Caulifla, and SS3 Goku blocked attacks from each of them at the same time by just aura when transforming into SS3

On top of all that, U6 Saiyans seem to learn/grow faster than those in U7, making them being beaten more of a feat.

 

[Golden_Void]

What specifically did Kefla and Future Trunks do that means this has to be a 2x multiplier?

Actually, Goku turning SS3 against Kale and Caulifla could be used as evidence for SS3 being a minimum of a 2x increase over SS2. SS2 Goku is capable of fighting equally with SS2 Caulifla in a 1V1. Kale is stronger than or equal to Caulifla, and SS3 Goku blocked attacks from each of them at the same time using just his aura when transforming into SS3

In addition to this, SSBKKx20 Goku could hurt SSJ Kefla while also getting one-shot by her, and SS2 Kefla was getting hurt by UIO Goku, which at a very lowballed minimum is 2x. There's also Future Trunks killing Dabura in his timeline who should be identical to the one in the current timeline. Dabura could beat SS2 Gohan who was weaker than he was when he fought Cell, but it's implied that either SS2 Goku or Majin Vegeta who are beyond Cell Saga Gohan would destroy Dabura.

Considering Gohan at 50% beat SPC, full-power Gohan would be twice as strong as the Gohan Cell fought but it also means Buu Saga Gohan is at least twice as weak. This means SS2 Future Trunks is at least relative to Cell Saga Gohan, who could contend with post-ROF SS2 Goku and was one-shot by SS3 Goku.

 

[Padaruyos]

In addition to the SS2 and SS3 multiplier. I would like to propose a possible multiplier for SSG.

When Goku fought Beerus for the first time, he notes that not even a fusion would be capable of beating him.

Base Vegito is stronger than SS3 Goku as stated by the Daizenshuu. So with a theoretical 2x SS1 multiplier for SS2 and 2x SS2 for SS3, Base Vegito would be at least 200x stronger than Base Goku. If we put SSG Goku as stronger than SS Vegito, SSG would have a theoretical multiplier of over 50x Base Vegito, who's stronger than SS3 Goku, who's at least 200x stronger than Base Goku.

Base Goku <(50x) SS Goku <(2x) SS2 Goku <(2x) SS3 Goku < Base Vegito <(50x) SS Vegito < SSG Goku

Total multiplier (x = Base Goku)
SS1 Goku: 50x
SS2: Goku >100x
SS3 Goku: >200x
Base Vegito: >>200x
SS Vegito: >>10000x
SSG Goku: >>>10000x

For a highball. Goku might consider Vegito being able to use SS2 or maybe even SS3 when making that statement. So with that in mind, a highball for SSG Goku would be at least 20000x to at least 40000x Base Goku.

 

[SlendVeny]

In addition to the SS2 and SS3 multiplier. I would like to propose a possible multiplier for SSG.

When Goku fought Beerus for the first time, he notes that not even a fusion would be capable of beating him.

Base Vegito is stronger than SS3 Goku as stated by the Daizenshuu. So with a theoretical 2x SS1 multiplier for SS2 and 2x SS2 for SS3, Base Vegito would be at least 200x stronger than Base Goku. If we put SSG Goku as stronger than SS Vegito, SSG would have a theoretical multiplier of over 50x Base Vegito, who's stronger than SS3 Goku, who's at least 200x stronger than Base Goku.

Base Goku <(50x) SS Goku <(2x) SS2 Goku <(2x) SS3 Goku < Base Vegito <(50x) SS Vegito < SSG Goku

Total multiplier (x = Base Goku)
SS1 Goku: 50x
SS2: Goku >100x
SS3 Goku: >200x
Base Vegito: >>200x
SS Vegito: >>10000x
SSG Goku: >>>10000x

For a highball. Goku might consider Vegito being able to use SS2 or maybe even SS3 when making that statement. So with that in mind, a highball for SSG Goku would be at least 20000x to at least 40000x Base Goku.

Nah, because the first time he used SSJG is a higher multiplier than on later dates.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

In addition to the SS2 and SS3 multiplier. I would like to propose a possible multiplier for SSG.

When Goku fought Beerus for the first time, he notes that not even a fusion would be capable of beating him.

Base Vegito is stronger than SS3 Goku as stated by the Daizenshuu. So with a theoretical 2x SS1 multiplier for SS2 and 2x SS2 for SS3, Base Vegito would be at least 200x stronger than Base Goku. If we put SSG Goku as stronger than SS Vegito, SSG would have a theoretical multiplier of over 50x Base Vegito, who's stronger than SS3 Goku, who's at least 200x stronger than Base Goku.

Base Goku <(50x) SS Goku <(2x) SS2 Goku <(2x) SS3 Goku < Base Vegito <(50x) SS Vegito < SSG Goku

Total multiplier (x = Base Goku)
SS1 Goku: 50x
SS2: Goku >100x
SS3 Goku: >200x
Base Vegito: >>200x
SS Vegito: >>10000x
SSG Goku: >>>10000x

For a highball. Goku might consider Vegito being able to use SS2 or maybe even SS3 when making that statement. So with that in mind, a highball for SSG Goku would be at least 20000x to at least 40000x Base Goku.

I was going to propose one for SSG and UIO if this one was accepted. With SSG we already have a minimum boost with comparison to ssj vegito. With UIO we have a direct comparison between ssbkk*20 Goku vs ssj kefla and UIO Goku vs ssj2 Kefla immediately after, so no other power boost happened. But it seems the general consensus is that the SSG multiplier from BoG is different afterwards

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Nah, because the first time he used SSJG is a higher multiplier than on later dates.

Hmm, is it tho? Most of Goku's opponents onwards needed SSB and above, I don't think there's been a direct comparison with SSG

The broly light novel (not sure if it's considered viable here) does say that SSG posseses a different dimension of power to the super Saiyan form iirc

 

[SlendVeny]

The thing I typically use for writing and stuff(this is just headcanon, I know, and most of it can be debunked, you don't need to tell me) is:

SSJ: 50

2: 100

3: 400

Golden Oozaru: 500

4: 3.2k

Full Power 4: 32k

Limit Breaker 4: >32k

God: >400

Blue: >20k

SSJBKKx20, Blue Evolution, and UI -SIGN-: >400k

MUI/TUI/UE: >1.2m through some Moro-based stuff I can't remember.

Broly Ikari LSSJ: > 4m

Not to derail, just wanted to share my perspective.

 

[SlendVeny]

Hmm, is it tho? Most of Goku's opponents onwards needed SSB and above, I don't think there's been a direct comparison with SSG

The broly light novel (not sure if it's considered viable here) does say that SSG posseses a different dimension of power to the super Saiyan form iirc

The first time he used it was notably different than other cases. It essentially changed the structure of his base form.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

I feel the multiplier for SSJ1 should be at minimum >10x, as it basically rendered Oozaru obsolete, which Vegeta explicitly stated "increases a saiyan's power tenfold".

 

[Nullflowerblush]

SS2 Gohan

Normal Super Saiyan.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

So, is x2 for these two forms accepted?

 

[Padaruyos]

I agree with at least 2x for both forms.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

2x for SS2 is pretty much doubtless. SS3 being 2x SS2 is reasonable so I agree with that as well but understand potential reservations.

 

[Golden_Void]

Normal Super Saiyan.

Damn

Well, it would still apply (the buu/cell saga scaling chain) since Trunks also had the Z-sword training and turned Dabura into dust.

 

[Lacku]

I feel the multiplier for SSJ1 should be at minimum >10x, as it basically rendered Oozaru obsolete, which Vegeta explicitly stated "increases a saiyan's power tenfold".

Wouldn't it bare minimum be greater than 40x since his 20x kamehameha significantly damaged 50% final form frieza and SSJ1 is vastly stronger than 100% final form frieza? So it goes Base Goku <(x20) Kaioken x20 Goku = 50% final form frieza <(x2) 100% final form frieza < SSJ1 Goku

 

[Padaruyos]

Yeah 50x is consistent and has been accepted in this wiki for a long time. SS2 and SS3 doesn't have a wiki usable multiplier though.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Is it okay to apply the 2x?

 

[Padaruyos]

Do we have staff approval?

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Do we have staff approval?

@Golden_Void and @ByAsura agreed for the 2x, DDM was against the 4x but not 2x,

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

So 2x SSJ for ssj2 and Ssj3 is 2x ssj2? That’s a w

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

So 2x SSJ for ssj2 and Ssj3 is 2x ssj2? That’s a w

Yea
With "at least" as a prefix

 

[Omegabronic]

So 2x SSJ for ssj2 and Ssj3 is 2x ssj2? That’s a w

2x ssj2? maybe, lephyr, damage and medeus didn't really disagreed but didn't agreed either, ssj3? nope, that has not being agreed by staff at all

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

2x ssj2? maybe, lephyr, damage and medeus didn't really disagreed but didn't agreed either, ssj3? nope, that has not being agreed by staff at all

Not sure what you're talking about, neither of them separated at only ssj2, they agree to the general 2x, both even tagged a message supporting ssj3 x2 as well when they gave their opinions.

As someone said, ssj3 Goku completely stopping the attacks of caulifa and kale at the same time with just his ssj3 aura when he actually was around even with caulifa in ssj2, with kale being stronger also supported it

 

[Omegabronic]

Not sure what you're talking about, neither of them separated at only ssj2, they agree to the general 2x, both even tagged a message supporting ssj3 x2 as well when they gave their opinions.

nah, the only one that i saw doing something like that was byasura, the others didn't, lephyr didn't for a fact agreed with either, he is the one that disagrees almost completely, but i will not talk for him too much, he he definitely didn't agreed, medeus didn't agreed either, but he seems to disagree less than lephyr, but he still disagreed nonetheless, and finally, damage straight up disagreed, no question here, the only thing he said here is that he is against the proposal, he is the most clear cut, the only one that seemed to agree was byasura on the ssj2 multiplier, but that's it, ssj3 literally has no agreement, ssj2 has insufficient as of now

As someone said, ssj3 Goku completely stopping the attacks of caulifa and kale at the same time with just his ssj3 aura when he actually was around even with caulifa in ssj2, with kale being stronger also supported it

that just means that he is stronger, how much? we don't know, we need explicit statements for multipliers, these are the rules

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

lephyr didn't for a fact agreed with either, he is the one that disagrees almost completely, but i will not talk for him too much, he he definitely didn't agreed,

ironic me being the ultra strict one for a change

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I don't understand any maths, but if it's to further update the DB, then I really agree.

 

[SlendVeny]

I agree, especially if we can get those mods into speed. Our DBZ speed blog could use a serious update.

 

[Omegabronic]

ironic me being the ultra strict one for a change

you are a mod now, that is natural order of things

 

[SirAlex09]

No multiplier is given in the series proper, and the ones given in the guide are clearly bs. As such, no multiplier can be used.

There is one big problem. SSJ and Kaioken are confirmed multipliers. If SSJ2 and 3 weren't multipliers , SSJ and Kaioken would eventually surpass SSJ2 and 3 as a power up depending on how high the base form is.