SSJ2 and SSJ3 Multipliers

[ArcaneAbyss]

Okay, I asked in the questions and answers section and was told that there was no low-balled value for ssj2 and 3

Now I know the *2 and *4 values aren't accepted here. However, they can't just be "unknown" because that's the same as saying they don't multiply by anything, basically saying ssj2 and 3 give a x1 boost

My proposal is that each form should have a lowballed value of x2, we KNOW their actual multipliers are far higher which is why x2 works with a "far higher' prefix next to it. This will 3nsire that the forms aren't being annulled and nerfing the characters's stats while ensuring that the multiplier is as conservative as possible - x2 is the lowest possible value they can give

That's all

 

[Stryker861]

i dont have to much of a problem with this but im pretty sure we dont have one for those forms is to minimize inconsistencys

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.

No multiplier is given in the series proper, and the ones given in the guide are clearly bs. As such, no multiplier can be used.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

No multiplier is given in the series proper, and the ones given in the guide are clearly bs. As such, no multiplier can be used.

To add to this back when power-levels were still relevant, even just being roughly ×1.1 stronger than an opponent was enough to completely curbstomp them yet as we know both PLs and multipliers later became BS which is further proven that in universe multipliers don't increase AP in a linear way.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

No multiplier is given in the series proper, and the ones given in the guide are clearly bs. As such, no multiplier can be used.

Yes, no statements, but feats show that they are beyond x2 at least simply looking at cell vs Gohan,

Suppressed PC was slapping around fpssj Gohan, ssj2 Gohan absolutely demolished Full power cell, even after he went a 3rd grade ssj-like transformation, and still matched him after his zenkai

and the massive jump in power than ssj3 gives,even when taking into account the logarithmic change in stats that comes with increasing your PL. But that's the point, it's smaller than what it SHOULD be and feats back it up, which is why using it as a low ball and putting the "likely higher" tag works. Not using it at all, is the same as saying it has no boost whatsoever which is even more inaccurate than giving a known low-ball value, neither ssj2 nor 3 can be lower than x2, which is why they work as low balls, the main issue is that people feel the stated multipliers are too small,so using them as low-ball s will be very accurate

To add to this back when power-levels were still relevant, even just being roughly ×1.1 stronger than an opponent was enough to completely curbstomp them yet as we know both PLs and multipliers later became BS which is further proven that in universe multipliers don't increase AP in a linear way.

This has nothing to do with ssj2 and 3 having a lowballed 2x value tho, but yes, small increases in power level resulted in large changes in stats it's never been a 1:1, it's always exponential or logarithmic, assume theybwerr linear is conservative. Power levels were stopped, multipliers weren't

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yes, no statements

There you go. Case closed.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

There you go. Case closed.

Why did you ignore everything else?even the ssj being 50x wasn't accepted for a time until his feats on relation to kk*20 was used. Feats supercede statements either way, ssj2 and ssj3 feats show than they can't be less than a x2, there is no mental gymnastics that can be done to get it any lower. X2 should be the acceptable lowballed multiplier value.

That's like saying of someone handles the core of a star, yet no value is given, scaling him to a lowballed value of the core of earth would be inaccurate, despite knowing he can obviously take far more

 

[SlendVeny]

No multiplier is given in the series proper, and the ones given in the guide are clearly bs.

Not really. People tend to go "OH, NO, GOHAN 2X MULTIPLIER TOO LOW" like that wasn't just a crazy rage boost. And everyone who goes "Noooooo, he wouldn't use SSJ3 for only 4x" is objectively wrong. He would, and the whole "Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta, yet SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku" thing is also wrong. So I have yet to see another good argument.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Why did you ignore everything else?

Multiplier page is clear. No statement = not accepted. Simple as that. As you noted, Ssj1 has the benefit of consistency with KK. That's why is accepted.

Not really.

You can both be my guests on trying to find a consistent number that's stated and not contradicted. Til then, there's simply not discussion to be had.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

like that wasn't just a crazy rage boost

It wasn't. Gohan was perfectly calm throughout the battle, even after his father died.

 

[ByAsura]

I suppose we could have an SS2 2x minimum for the characters that don't have direct scaling to Gohan, like DBS manga Goku (because characters like Buu Saga Goku get Solar System level from Gohan scaling). Objectively, there is an existing SS2 >>>2x multiplier over SS1 via Gohan wrecking Cell at half power.

However, via our rules, this wouldn't apply to SS3.

 

[SlendVeny]

It wasn't. Gohan was perfectly calm throughout the battle, even after his father died.

Isn't Gohan's whole bit that he gets angry as hell but doesn't show it? See Ultimate and Beast Gohan.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I suppose we could have a 2x minimum for the characters that don't have direct scaling to Gohan, like DBS manga Goku. Objectively, there is an existing SS2 >>>2x multiplier over SS1.

Yeah, which we don't have a value on, where even DBS stuff is not really quantifiable since they progressively go higher and higher while fighting.

It's just not enough imo.

 

[ByAsura]

He already did get angry as hell. It lead him to become SS2 in the first place.

Gohan was actively holding himself back to not **** up the Earth when fighting Cell. But Goku told him that they had the Dragon Balls, so they'd just repair the damages.

 

[ByAsura]

Yeah, which we don't have a value on, where even DBS stuff is not really quantifiable since they progressively go higher and higher while fighting.

It's just not enough imo.

We do have a value, though. And the same applies moreso to Cell than Gohan in this situation.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

But since we are gonna have this conversation

@DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Firestorm808 @Damage3245

Thoughts?

 

[SlendVeny]

He already did get angry as hell. It lead him to become SS2 in the first place.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[ByAsura]

Actually, scratch what I said about a minimum 2x multiplier. The Assault Mode multiplier wasn't accepted for the same reason, despite similar circumstances.

 

[SlendVeny]

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Legitimately, why would going SSJ2 make him less angry?

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not arguing that he was less angry. I'm arguing that the anger was represented as an SS2 boost (something that's stated by Goku), not a regular power boost.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Multiplier page is clear. No statement = not accepted. Simple as that. As you noted, Ssj1 has the benefit of consistency with KK. That's why is accepted.

Yes I saw what you tagged, but this

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. That means, for example, that if a verse has powerlevels or statistics, the doubling of a statistic or power level should not be concluded to correspond to the power of the character doubling, unless it is clearly specified to work that way.

Has nothing to do with what I am proposing, I am saying that his direct feat against cell in addition to the statement about it shows a lowballed x2 boost, not just because it's a super Saiyan 2 or what not

Suppressed cell was smacking around fpssj gohan. ssj2 Gohan dominated FP cell, easily oneshotted him in his ultra state which amped his power further, and still matched him after his zenkai....the gap between suppressed perfect cell and super perfect cell objectively shows the x2 as a low-ball

As for statements, there IS also one stated in a guide,but wasn't allowed because it was felt to be too low. Which is why I don't understand your desire to completely write it off as a lowball

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, SSJ2 as mentioned above is clearly a lot higher than simply 2x for AP, and as for speed I'm not sure. But I can guarantee that there really is 0 basis for a SSJ3 multiplier relative to SSJ2 we just know that it's noticeably stronger but how much stronger cannot be properly calculated.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Well, SSJ2 as mentioned above is clearly a lot higher than simply 2x for AP, and as for speed I'm not sure. But I can guarantee that there really is 0 basis for a SSJ3 multiplier relative to SSJ2 we just know that it's noticeably stronger but how much stronger cannot be properly calculated.

As for ssj3, being strong enough to kill fat Buu despite Its regeneration as opposed to ssj2 Vegeta unable to do so despite a massive AP boosting final destruction tech might be a good point

but one question,I checked a lot of the former multiplier threads in the Q&A, what exact reason was the guide that gave the ssj2/ssj3 Multipliers rejected, asides people thinking it's too small for ssj2 (hence the lowball figure)

 

[ByAsura]

Correct me if I'm wrong, DDM, but didn't we used to have SS1 as a 40x multiplier via feats?

Or have multiplier rules changed since then?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, DDM, but didn't we used to have SS1 as a 40x multiplier via feats?

Or have multiplier rules changed since then?

We accepted 40x multiplier because Kaioken X20 just barely matched 50% Frieza where as SSJ Goku basically dominated 100% Frieza and later AKM sama mentioned being fine with him being 1.25x stronger/faster thus making the 50x multiplier consistent. But going from SSJ1 to SSJ2 is a jump from High 4-C to being 50x baseline 4-B thus the multiplier would be like more than 100x compared to SSJ1 at that point in time.

 

[ByAsura]

I know why (I was actually the one who implemented it).

I'm just wondering if it'd be fine to use feats-based multipliers with statements here. But, yeah, I forgot to factor inconsistency.

 

[SlendVeny]

I'm not arguing that he was less angry. I'm arguing that the anger was represented as an SS2 boost (something that's stated by Goku), not a regular power boost.

Odd.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think we treat unknown multipliers as a default 2x multiplier, so I'm against this.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't think we treat unknown multipliers as a default 2x multiplier, so I'm against this.

The argument is if we should use the x2 as a minimum, since it's stated in the guide.

 

[Golden_Void]

Can't we use Kefla/Caulifla feats for SS2 confirmation as well? And Future Trunks.

 

[ByAsura]

What specifically did Kefla and Future Trunks do that means this has to be a 2x multiplier?

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

I don't think we treat unknown multipliers as a default 2x multiplier, so I'm against this.

That's not what being discussed. There were multipliers given in guidebooks, but weren't accepted mostly because they were conceded too small, ergo using them as the minimum boosts for the forms is the proposal
For ssj2, the cell fight shows that the x2 is at best, a minimum, is far higher
For ssj3, the x4, if it's considered too small, is in the same ballpark as ssj2, to be used as a multiplier, or at the very least, also a x2. Both forms are much higher than just x2 boosts

 

[Eseseso]

The SSJ2 multiplier is a good minimum, although for Gohan's case we know it's way higher than that.

SSJ3 is pretty consistent, oddly enough, considering that SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta got stomped by Fat Buu but could still somewhat hold their own and hurt him, while SSJ3 Goku whooped Fat Buu yet Fat Buu could somewhat hold his own.

Kid Buu who matched SSJ3 did easily beat SSJ2 Vegeta but Vegeta still somewhat held his own.

 

[Padaruyos]

Tbh I can agree with SS2 being a bare minimum 2x multiplier over SS1 since SS2 Gohan at half power demolished Super Perfect Cell when previously SS1 Gohan can't beat Non-Super Perfect Cell. But we don't actually know how much of that boost comes from the SS2 transformation itself, rather than Gohan's rage amp, which is a thing with Gohan.

As for SS3, there's really no way to put actual numbers on it without feats, it's just unquantifiably stronger than SS2. But it's quite considerable. It allowed him to fight Kid Buu while previously he can't even deal with Fat Buu. Beerus is actually somewhat impressed with it. One-shotted SS2 F.Trunks who's previously equal to him.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

The SSJ2 multiplier is a good minimum, although for Gohan's case we know it's way higher than that.

SSJ3 is pretty consistent, oddly enough, considering that SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta got stomped by Fat Buu but could still somewhat hold their own and hurt him, while SSJ3 Goku whooped Fat Buu yet Fat Buu could somewhat hold his own.

Kid Buu who matched SSJ3 did easily beat SSJ2 Vegeta but Vegeta still somewhat held his own.

Tbh I can agree with SS2 being a bare minimum 2x multiplier over SS1 since SS2 Gohan at half power demolished Super Perfect Cell when previously SS1 Gohan can't beat Non-Super Perfect Cell. But we don't actually know how much of that boost comes from the SS2 transformation itself, rather than Gohan's rage amp, which is a thing with Gohan.

As for SS3, there's really no way to put actual numbers on it without feats, it's just unquantifiably stronger than SS2. But it's quite considerable. It allowed him to fight Kid Buu while previously he can't even deal with Fat Buu. Beerus is actually somewhat impressed with it. One-shotted SS2 F.Trunks who's previously equal to him.

In other words there's no reason to reject the x4 ssj2 boost it's stated to give even if it's kept as a minimum?

 

[ByAsura]

Do you mean 2x?

 

[Padaruyos]

2x lowball seems reasonable to me for SS2, SS3's multiplier is just unquantifiable.

 

[Eseseso]

2x lowball seems reasonable to me for SS2, SS3's multiplier is just unquantifiable.

How is it unquantifiable?

A 4x multiplier is fine.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Do you mean 2x?

x2 is the minimum I am proposing for both forms yes with a 'far higher' or so prefix,



But if x4 given in the databooks is also considered viable for ssj3, sure

 

[ByAsura]

I think 4x doesn't work at all.

2x is technically inaccurate, and only the product of a low-ball via statements. The guide is provably untrustworthy, hence why we use Daizenshuu and Toriyama for the 50x multiplier.