((SPOILERS)) Deltarune Chapter 2 Upgrades/Additions

[Armorchompy]

Honestly, I think we can go ahead and give both Lightworld Kris and Susie 9-C across the board.

Kris' soul-rip animation seems to show that Kris actually shoves their hand into their chest to remove the soul, and to accompany the visuals, the "hurt" sound effect plays a few times.

There isn't blood flowing everywhere or any hint of a wound so I seriously doubt he's actually plunging his hand through his chest.

The knife should probably scale to striking strength and therefore AP/dura, given how there was enough power behind the strike to cut open car tires and crack the (wooden) living room floor.

Uh, normal people can do that, I feel. We scale weaponry to SS cause most tiers are really big but that's absolutely not something we should do for tier 10/9-C

Kris should also have both Social Influencing and Stealth Mastery in his LW key. SI comes from the fact that Kris shouldn't be less intelligent or charismatic in the LW

Sure

and SM comes from them being able to sneak outside and slash Toriel's car tires, with Toriel not even realizing Kris was the one behind it.

It was dark and he used the window, I don't think that's impressive enough for SM

And then Susie was implied to be able to bite off Kris' face, and certainly has the power/teeth to do so, given how effortlessly she held him against the lockers.

"Biting off someone's face" doesn't really mean anything beyond tearing away some skin, not really a feat

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I'm a bit hesitant to call that an explosion and not a dramatic effect, the same thing happens when Lancer uses Stoole Forme (white screen/explosion sound). I guess this explosion actually comes from a source that makes sense for a genuine explosion though, should be fine.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm a bit hesitant to call that an explosion and not a dramatic effect, the same thing happens when Lancer uses Stoole Forme (white screen/explosion sound). I guess this explosion actually comes from a source that makes sense for a genuine explosion though, should be fine.

There, it was a gag, and the screen just went white.

Here we have a serious moment, with a visible radius, a similar sound effect used for explosion, and berdly actually getting damaged by it, so it is very likely an explosion. Same thing happenend to "neutral route' Spamton NEO

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, when random enemies get unplugged we don't see that kinda explosion so I'm not sure it isn't a screen transition. BUt it's probably fine to use

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I mean, when random enemies get unplugged we don't see that kinda explosion so I'm not sure it isn't a screen transition. BUt it's probably fine to use

That's because we loose the wires before removing them. Berdly took it out by force, and the wire even had some electricity in it, which could trigger an explosion. Either way, I'll make a blog on it. It did happen close to the ground, which formula should I use?

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not seen actually being affected by the ground so air blast is better imo

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ayyy, Small Bulding Chapter 2, less go

 

[Daddybrawl]

Ayyy, Small Bulding Chapter 2, less go

…doesn’t Berdly literally lose his arm due to this? Who would even scale?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

…doesn’t Berdly literally lose his arm due to this? Who would even scale?

"lose his arm"? He gets hurt on the arm, sure, but he eats the explosion regardless. For all I know, it can be due to the electricity throwing his nerve system out of commission.

Anyone who can hurt Berdly should scale, aka, the main cast for directly doing so, Spamton NEO and Queen for scaling above their combined force.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah, Berdly says his arm is "fried", it was likely the electricity rather than the explosion.

 

[Daddybrawl]

"lose his arm"? He gets hurt on the arm, sure, but he eats the explosion regardless. For all I know, it can be due to the electricity throwing his nerve system out of commission.

Anyone who can hurt Berdly should scale, aka, the main cast for directly doing so, Spamton NEO and Queen for scaling above their combined force.

I played this route. His entire arm’s a char black. He claims he would assist the player, but he can’t do much with his arm broken. Even in the Light World, he had to get Noelle grab his stuff.

That doesn’t seem like his nerves shutting down.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I played this route. His entire arm’s a char black. He claims he would assist the player, but he can’t do much with his arm broken. Even in the Light World, he had to get Noelle grab his stuff.

That doesn’t seem like his nerves shutting down.

Yes, it was fried due to the electricity. His whole body ate the explosion point-blank, still.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Heeeey, so, how do I become a verse supporter? Although we need to create a verse page first and foremost.

 

[Imaginym]

Heeeey, so, how do I become a verse supporter? Although we need to create a verse page first and foremost.

Find the Verse's page on the Wiki, go to the Supporters section, & Edit your Username into the Supporters section. If the Verse does not have a Verse Page, it may be worthwhile to make one.
You may also wish to go to the Knowledgeable Members (Verses) page on the Wiki, find the Verse's section on that page, & Edit your Username into that as well. If the Verse does not have a section on the page, it may be worthwhile to add one.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Find the Verse's page on the Wiki, go to the Supporters section, & Edit your Username into the Supporters section. If the Verse does not have a Verse Page, it may be worthwhile to make one.
You may also wish to go to the Knowledgeable Members (Verses) page on the Wiki, find the Verse's section on that page, & Edit your Username into that as well. If the Verse does not have a section on the page, it may be worthwhile to add one.

I could make one, but as anyone can tell, I don't exactly express myself properly in English (It doesn't sound or seem natural english), so I'd leave it to someone else to do it.

 

[Livinmeme]

Question shouldnt Kris get mind reading because he was able to reading the mind of noelle, okay that was kinda the player but still

 

[ShockingPsychic]

That's more of an ability for the Player, yeah.

 

[Livinmeme]

Still

 

[Livinmeme]

He should get it he literally is being posesed by the player 99% of the game

 

[Imaginym]

He should get it he literally is being posesed by the player 99% of the game

& yet, the two are often shown as distinct. The SOUL doesn't control Kris's actions in most cutscenes, especially in the Light World.
Against Berdly, if Kris is down, Noelle thinks she can still hear Kris's voice, which is implied to be not Kris's but the SOUL's/Players.
& how Kris plays out choices, especially in some dialogue, can often contrast with what the player/SOUL might want from such a choice.

Plus, there's probably things said or thought that we &/or Kris don't know. What did Ralsei say while we were checking on Susie? If the SOUL could mind read, that wouldn't be so ambiguous.

More likely, it's just Fourth Wall Awareness, & that belongs to the SOUL/Player, not so much Kris, because Kris is their own being, & very often, they do things differently from what the SOUL/Player's choices seem to intend for them.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Berdly's calc just got accepted, but obviously only some top tiers would scale to it, likely the ones who aren't quickly defeated by Noelle's IceShock.

Berdly, Queen, Kris, Ralsei and Susie, probably.

 

[Livinmeme]

Berdly's calc just got accepted, but obviously only some top tiers would scale to it, likely the ones who aren't quickly defeated by Noelle's IceShock.

Berdly, Queen, Kris, Ralsei and Susie, probably.

Spamtom neo and jevil arguably?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Spamtom neo and jevil arguably?

No Chapter 1 Characters, most of chapter 2 low tiers, and chapter 1 enemies take scaling from Jevil.

Spamton NEO too, of course.

 

[Lou_change]

Again jevil is weird anyway what about his durability in devil's knife form I believe susie scale to it's with her attacks and she can use him in that form as a weapon similar logic applies to his armor form.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Again jevil is weird anyway what about his durability in devil's knife form I believe susie scale to it's with her attacks and she can use him in that form as a weapon similar logic applies to his armor form.

Jevil as a equipment will not scale to his durability due to game mechanics as any equipment from chapter 1 will likely be usable in the future chapters. That's just how RPGs work, and I don't want Jevil scaling to chapter 6 feats for example.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Berdly's calc just got accepted, but obviously only some top tiers would scale to it, likely the ones who aren't quickly defeated by Noelle's IceShock.

Berdly, Queen, Kris, Ralsei and Susie, probably.

I will wait until tomorrow to apply the changes, as someone could have a problem with said feat

 

[Lou_change]

Jevil's durability in that state contradicts nothing.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Jevil's durability in that state contradicts nothing.

... Did you not read what I said?
Chapter 1 characters can damage him, and he should not scale to himself as an equipment, he will be usable in any given chapter, even if said chapter has City Level feats for example.

We will NOT backscale Jevil from further chapters due to game mechanics

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Plus, weapons and armors can't take damage, nor break, ANY weapon/armor. That's literally how most RPGs work.

This also creates stupid circular scaling:

"Wood Sword (Ch 1 weakest weapon) can damage chapter 2/3/4/5/6/7 characters, and Chapter 1 Characters can survive one hit from it, t h e r e f o r e -"

No. Armors and Weapons only add to the current character's stats, they don't scale to the damage on their own, as any attack counts the yielder's defense stat+the armor, same goes to attack.

We are absolutely not scaling Jevil to future chapters just because he became a weapon.

 

[Lou_change]

Jevil would only scale in those forms his normal form would have the same durability and it doesn't affect ap because axes which are levers get their power from the person using them.

Anyway it's would be in the form of a possibly higher with transformation for durability he is never harmed in those forms so it contradicts nothing. Also should he get a resistance to Petrification and lose Chaos Manipulation.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Jevil would only scale in those forms his normal form would have the same durability and it doesn't affect ap because axes which are levers get their power from the person using them.

Same goes to durability.

Anyway it's would be in the form of a possibly higher with transformation for durability he is never harmed in those forms so it contradicts nothing. Also should he get a resistance to Petrification and lose Chaos Manipulation.

I am not going to repeat myself, armors don't get damage regardless, because it just adds to the yielder's durability, it's not it's own thing.
Also, Jevil can't get a "higher" in his key for the same reason, he is not his own character as an equipment.

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

Plus, weapons and armors can't take damage, nor break, ANY weapon/armor. That's literally how most RPGs work.

This also creates stupid circular scaling:

"Wood Sword (Ch 1 weakest weapon) can damage chapter 2/3/4/5/6/7 characters, and Chapter 1 Characters can survive one hit from it, t h e r e f o r e -"

No. Armors and Weapons only add to the current character's stats, they don't scale to the damage on their own, as any attack counts the yielder's defense stat+the armor, same goes to attack.

We are absolutely not scaling Jevil to future chapters just because he became a weapon.

we could just assume jevil could just take that much of a beating, that's all that he does anyway.

 

[Imaginym]

we could just assume jevil could just take that much of a beating, that's all that he does anyway.

That leads to assuming Jevil can survive those attacks, & thus, Durability, no? Ergo, problematic backscaling.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Imaginym put it perfectly. Let's not use RPG equipment as scaling unless the verse itself do so.

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

Imaginym put it perfectly. Let's not use RPG equipment as scaling unless the verse itself do so.

Isn't game mechanics basically the Meta of the verse?

We can't fully deny that.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Isn't game mechanics basically the Meta of the verse?

We can't fully deny that.

Just because one game mechanics which is directly affecting the plot is the meta, does not mean the very concept of game mechanics is the meta.

Weapons are not to be scaled with who uses them, or who they are used against, especially in RPGs

 

[Lou_change]

Weapons are not to be scaled with who uses them, or who they are used against, especially in RPGs

I am pretty sure that isn't the default assumption.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I am pretty sure that isn't the default assumption.

You're surely wrong then.
In a game? An RPG? Where a n y weapon does damage or tanks attacks in significantly stronger enemies?

Literally, if the Level 100 protagonist takes a lv 1 leather shirt from an RPG game, and go to the final boss, said leather shirt will obviously not break nor take damage from said boss' attack, because that's how the game WORKS.
Should we scale it to the Level 1 Protagonist who was wearing it before? Obviously not. OF COURSE not, how is that NOT the default assumption?
Should we say the Leather Shirt has enough durability to tank the final boss' attack? No.


I don't understand how you think that's fair.

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

You're surely wrong then.
In a game? An RPG? Where a n y weapon does damage or tanks attacks in significantly stronger enemies?

Literally, if the Level 100 protagonist takes a lv 1 leather shirt from an RPG game, and go to the final boss, said leather shirt will obviously not break nor take damage from said boss' attack, because that's how the game WORKS.
Should we scale it to the Level 1 Protagonist who was wearing it before? Obviously not. OF COURSE not, how is that NOT the default assumption?
Should we say the Leather Shirt has enough durability to tank the final boss' attack? No.


I don't understand how you think that's fair.

that's only assuming game mechanics are the meta in that particular verse. Jevil even stated that the world is like a game after the encounter with mystery man.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

that's only assuming game mechanics are the meta in that particular verse. Jevil even stated that the world is like a game after the encounter with mystery man.

I already replied to that. The way weapons and equipments work in RPG being part of the meta is utterly irrelevant, not supported, and will cause direct problems with the scaling. Game Mechanics being the meta does not mean we should allow for scaling through something that's literally not being meant to be scaled, as that's, again, how any RPG works.