Spiritual Energy Manipulation - Celebrating the Release of Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth

[Smashtwig]

I honestly thought that FF always cross scaled which is why I thought Bahamut was the same guy in every installment and everyone scales from him

but it is true that a multiverse doesn't mean each universe works on the same logic, in fact it being different is a reason why FF7 is a different universe to begin with. Tbh part of me feels like FF7 should be its own thing at times lol.


Also I have a question about the blog, it says that Sephiroth Pre-Lifestream fall is a Master Level, and Post is Thamaturge. But then later on in the P&A section Sephiroth from the original game is listed to be in the Awakened tier. But Sephiroth in the OG WAS Post Lifestream Fall was he not-? I thought “Lifestream Fall” referred to when Cloud threw him into the Lifestream at the Nibelheim Reactor- so there shouldn’t be any Awakened level Sephiroth, just skipping from Master to Thamaturge

 

[G33kedzinx]

Firstly 15 and 13 have that stuff due to having a direct tie to the original series, compared to 7 which only has a tie to it due to Gilgamesh who quite literally travels the void between realities, and has negative reason to be used as the sole foundation upon which an argument for them sharing magic should be drawn.

Secondly, why are we presuming these are basic properties of magic throughout the entire multiverse when the source upon which magic is drawn is different, especially in the case of 7 where magic quite literally draws upon a power and uses properties specific to its home universe. And despite the lifestream crossing universes to put Zach in Grymoire (which may very well only be due to Enna Kros having created Mako within it), it doesn't mean that it shares/carries the magical properties that the magic within those universes utilize, even more so when they draw upon different sources of power, such as Mist/Auricite in Ivalice or The Warring Triad in 6.

How exactly does ff13 tie to the original series ?

 

[G33kedzinx]

It is kinda weird that dissidia and ff1-6 are used for cross-scaling to other worlds when said worlds are treated as having exclusive abilities on the wiki, even the ff1-6 stuff is kinda vague but it’s whatever. And if ff7 does get 1-6 magical properties, neon from stranger of paradise would also have spiritual essence Cus the lufenians oversee and manipulate countless worlds from their dimension, ff1to at least 15 included and also used the same method of creating aerith to create neon. Matter of fact SOP lufenians should literally have all magical properties from all dimensions and probably more but that’s a topic for another CRT entirely.

 

[AlphaOmegaV1]

How exactly does ff13 tie to the original series ?

Because the Crystal mythos and nature of Magic is confirmed by WOG to be the same as the Classic Games

 

[G33kedzinx]

Because the Crystal mythos and nature of Magic is confirmed by WOG to be the same as the Classic Games

Then in turn ff1-6 would get unseen chaos after all chaos is treated as the same in dissidia. can’t be picking and choosing abilities when cross-scaling so it’s either they have both or ff13 shouldn’t be associated with ff1-6 due to nothing more than having similar nature of magic.

 

[Theglassman12]

@G33kedzinx the series in general would need a massive overhaul since we’ve only gotten the first 6 games, and the Fabula Nova crystalis series to be updated. Though going through every single game would take a while to do so, eventually the unseen chaos stuff would eventually cross scale to some of the other games.

@Hypertornado099 they literally have the same Gilgamesh who can use his exact same magic abilities across the two games with no struggle, that and the void/rift stretching across different realities (AKA mainline FF titles) would make it cross scale to one another.

@deonment yeah and Gilgamesh is all the reason we need when he’s a blatant reference to 5 on top of him flat out referencing the worlds he traversed in Mobius and Strangers of Paradise, saying it doesn’t count because Gilgamesh isn’t an argument, unless you wanna argue that Gilgamesh in rebirth and in 4 and in 13 are not the same Gilgamesh that came from 5.

Did you ignore the part where I said the lifestream literally crosses over several universes? Especially with one of the Ultimania lore talking about how the lifestream can create universes in the same way the Crystals in 5 does. The warring triads are hardly any different than someone like crisis core Minerva, where they’re a manifestation of magic itself in their world, plus the fact that Gilgamesh himself can appear as a Whisper of Fate in Rebirth despite not belonging in 7’s universe would show that whatever’s unique to 7 can occur to different beings that didn’t originate in 7.

 

[Smashtwig]

Did you ignore the part where I said the lifestream literally crosses over several universes? Especially with one of the Ultimania lore talking about how the lifestream can create universes in the same way the Crystals in 5 does. The warring triads are hardly any different than someone like crisis core Minerva, where they’re a manifestation of magic itself in their world, plus the fact that Gilgamesh himself can appear as a Whisper of Fate in Rebirth despite not belonging in 7’s universe would show that whatever’s unique to 7 can occur to different beings that didn’t originate in 7.

But aren’t Whispers the will of the planet itself? They would have to originate from 7’s world. This Gilgamesh could just be a traveler of the 7 multiverse instead of the FF multiverse, and just not be the same one we know from other titles

 

[Theglassman12]

@Smashtwig he literally references Bartz in his final fight and talks about traveling through the void itself to fight other warriors of light. It’s the same Gilgamesh.

 

[Smashtwig]

@Smashtwig he literally references Bartz in his final fight and talks about traveling through the void itself to fight other warriors of light. It’s the same Gilgamesh.

O-oh. Tbh I never saw the Gil stuff because I was trying to speedrun the game before I got spoiled. I still feel like it’s weird to grant other FFs Lifestream powers unless for some reason things like Mako poisoning and Whispers are just present in the other titles

But I am okay with direct AP and Speed scaling with Gil despite my dislike for crossover scaling and having the 7 cast be carried by someone not from their world

 

[Theglassman12]

@Smashtwig Personally I'd argue the high end lifestream stuff would scale to those that are manifestations of magic itself rather than just everyone everyone, but we would need to make a general magic page in the future, however we also need to get through as much of the mainline series as possible since there's likely something around the corner for magic, and eventually we'll get a cosmology blog going for arguing the whole cross scaling material the series gets.

 

[Smashtwig]

eventually we'll get a cosmology blog going for arguing the whole cross scaling material the series gets.

Speaking of someone in the discord better debunk my Tier 1 Rebirth argument or I will bring it here lol

 

[Theglassman12]

there is no tier 1 FF, only 2-A.

 

[deonment]

@deonment yeah and Gilgamesh is all the reason we need when he’s a blatant reference to 5 on top of him flat out referencing the worlds he traversed in Mobius and Strangers of Paradise, saying it doesn’t count because Gilgamesh isn’t an argument, unless you wanna argue that Gilgamesh in rebirth and in 4 and in 13 are not the same Gilgamesh that came from 5.

Did you ignore the part where I said the lifestream literally crosses over several universes? Especially with one of the Ultimania lore talking about how the lifestream can create universes in the same way the Crystals in 5 does. The warring triads are hardly any different than someone like crisis core Minerva, where they’re a manifestation of magic itself in their world, plus the fact that Gilgamesh himself can appear as a Whisper of Fate in Rebirth despite not belonging in 7’s universe would show that whatever’s unique to 7 can occur to different beings that didn’t originate in 7.

I'm not arguing that Gilgamesh is not the same, I am arguing that the known dimension hopper should not be used as an argument for differing worlds holding the same principles of magic, that would be like saying that every other alternate dimension someone like The Doctor visits must by necessity share the same laws of physics (They do not).

I did not, and I very much addressed why that doesn't mean much, just simply reaching those planes does not mean that it carries or shares the properties that make those magics the way that they are, creating universes isn't a feat that is relevant here, since the universe it would create would simply already function within the laws the lifestream itself already has, and comparing it to the Crystals is not a useful comparison, as two different things can perform the same function. And? They are still very much different things and different sources of magic people draw upon, Gilgamesh in Rebirth literally isn't a Whisper, he came and left through the Void, and once more isn't my argument.

I am saying that 7 gives us a very specific description of magic (Drawing upon spirit energy that they were literally born with due to coming from the lifestream), that when compared to how magic is described in 1-6, gives us no reason to say that the properties of the two are the same, at least with the evidence being presented.

 

[Smashtwig]

I feel like even if the properties are the same it doesn't mean the source of it are all the same

Magic in 1-6 could work like "1+1+1=3", but Magic in 7 could work like "3+2-1-4+3=3". The output (properties of magic; 3) may be similar, but the input (source; 1+1+1) could be different

 

[Theglassman12]

@deonment The dimension hopper that can utilize his powers rather easily despite going in different worlds whose rules are supposedly different. The fact he’s capable of this alongside the Dissidia events being canon where anyone and everyone can still utilize their magics in realities that don’t belong to them despite said lore difference says otherwise.

Creating universes isn’t the point I’m focusing on, the point is the lifestream extends across numerous realities with its description on how it can spread across and create realities, meaning this wouldn’t stem to only 7 stuff. Also Gilgamesh literally materialized from a whisper of fate when he sees Sephiroth for the first time, so the principles cross over for each other.

Like what? Because you do realize 6 and 7 both share the same story point of people being injected with magic to create super soldiers that can have severe side effects right?

 

[Hypertornado099]

@Hypertornado099 they literally have the same Gilgamesh who can use his exact same magic abilities across the two games with no struggle, that and the void/rift stretching across different realities (AKA mainline FF titles) would make it cross scale to one another.

That's why I said we should have a page for FF magic and everything from FF4 would apply to FF7, not just the conceptual manipulation

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

As Tarta said, Spiritual Energy that living people have and the Lifestream are tied to eachother. As such it's channeled into attacks. So yes, it's used in combat. Similar to how general magic in FF's 1-6 and others all have Type 2 Concept, Space-Time, Law, and Subjective Reality Hax, which is what Glass was getting at.

I don't think we should generalized the abilities that the user never shown of using (the lifestream did it), I mean that is a subtle way to wank UES.

And I don't think simply using lifestream itself will channel you a CM Hax without further proof and elaboration.

In my opinion, the CM that the Lifestream have is simply because it know 'how' and it is an action from the lifestream. CM is not the 'nature' or 'in the substance' of lifestream itself.

 

[Smashtwig]

Creating universes isn’t the point I’m focusing on, the point is the lifestream extends across numerous realities with its description on how it can spread across and create realities, meaning this wouldn’t stem to only 7 stuff. Also Gilgamesh literally materialized from a whisper of fate when he sees Sephiroth for the first time, so the principles cross over for each other.

Rebirth Spoilers just in case this is a spoiler free zone

Spoiler

When you say the Lifestream extends across realities you're referring to the new Rebirth stuff where Sephiroth explains the planet/lifestream encompasses multiple worlds right? In that cutscene they only show scenes of FF7 things such as Zack's world etc. It could just be the multiverse of FF7 that the lifestream extends to instead of just the whole franchise

 

[Eseseso]

Speaking of someone in the discord better debunk my Tier 1 Rebirth argument or I will bring it here lol

Cook, I've already been discussing Tier 1 FF with AlphaOmega

 

[G33kedzinx]

Cook, I've already been discussing Tier 1 FF with AlphaOmega

I mean that’ll be nice, especially since my boy jack and the SOP lufenians would automatically scale there but what is the basis for tier 1 ff ?

 

[Smashtwig]

It's honestly not that good since no one really scales to it. Also it involves Rebirth Spoilers and I put this crap together on a speedrunning mindset at 4 AM trying to beat the game before I got spoiled myself

Is this a spoiler free zone rn or nah

 

[Eseseso]

I mean that’ll be nice, especially since my boy jack and the SOP lufenians would automatically scale there but what is the basis for tier 1 ff ?

I'll explain later as to not derail this thread.

Speaking of, what still needs to be discussed?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Hypertornado099 once we get everything organized that will be made. However given how we’ve only gotten like half of the mainline games down I’d prefer we get as much info before we make said page.

@Smashtwig no there’s some ultimania stuff I remember being translated a couple years ago that talked about how a single drop of the lifestream creates entire galaxies and planets and stars and stuff. There’s also some other ultimania statements that has not only 7 and 10 tied to the lifestream, but 9 as well, plus Gilgamesh’s mere existence as well as him being a whisper of fate in one of the cutscenes would heavily imply it extends across other realities.

 

[TartaChocholate]

I don't think we should generalized the abilities that the user never shown of using (the lifestream did it), I mean that is a subtle way to wank UES.

And I don't think simply using lifestream itself will channel you a CM Hax without further proof and elaboration.

In my opinion, the CM that the Lifestream have is simply because it know 'how' and it is an action from the lifestream. CM is not the 'nature' or 'in the substance' of lifestream itself.

Hmm... thing is, the Lifestream is not a dimension created with Spiritual Energy, the Lifestream is Spiritual Energy and Aerith is not saying that the Lifestream is changing the concepts of space-time, she says the concepts of space-time are already different within this world of Mako (Spiritual Energy).

And while I understand where the further proof that Spiritual Energy carries the properties of the Lifestream comes from, and really don't want to point fingers here but, how is this really different from our justification from magic from I to VI getting concept and space-time manip based on the Devil's Road? The novel states that mages developed a special kind of magic to alter the concepts of space-time to build the Devil's Road and shorten the distance between Mysidia and Baron. Based on this single instance of magic being used that way, it's accepted that all of magic has concept and space-time manip. Unlike Law Manip and Subjective Reality which are described as inherent principles of magic in the novels and games (in the latters case), this is the single example for space-time and concept.

I am not questioning magic form I to VI, but why despite being such a similar scenario is Spiritual Energy deemed as not enough?

 

[Stillwinston]

On a side note with Gilgamesh I do love how generally with his boss fights they're so random and wild that the party of the game involved just tends to not discuss it much after lol.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Hmm... thing is, the Lifestream is not a dimension created with Spiritual Energy, the Lifestream is Spiritual Energy and Aerith is not saying that the Lifestream is changing the concepts of space-time, she says the concepts of space-time are already different within this world of Mako (Spiritual Energy).

And while I understand where the further proof that Spiritual Energy carries the properties of the Lifestream comes from, and really don't want to point fingers here but, how is this really different from our justification from magic from I to VI getting concept and space-time manip based on the Devil's Road? The novel states that mages developed a special kind of magic to alter the concepts of space-time to build the Devil's Road and shorten the distance between Mysidia and Baron. Based on this single instance of magic being used that way, it's accepted that all of magic has concept and space-time manip. Unlike Law Manip and Subjective Reality which are described as inherent principles of magic in the novels and games (in the latters case), this is the single example for space-time and concept.

I am not questioning magic form I to VI, but why despite being such a similar scenario is Spiritual Energy deemed as not enough?

Doesn't really similar in my opinion.

I haven't get played the earlier FF installment. But form what I read from those, the mages are actually shown using the magic to change the concept. While the one that using CM in Lifestream is the consciousness of lifestream itself. There aren't user that was shown to actually use lifestream in conceptual way.

Once again, I think this is the matter of 'how' (Lifestream can change the concept of space-time because it know how, the user doesn't.) it is not the inherent energy abilities.

Let me just write this analogue.

An AI was created to control a system and it was given all of the knowledge about the system. Because of that, the AI can do almost everything that the system can handle of. And then there some John who can use the system too, but his knowledge about it is limited. Therefore John can't utilise the system at the extent of the AI.

The AI is Lifestream consciousness, the system are the Lifestream energy, while John are just your average magic user. While the highest function of that system is CM.

Anyway, that just few opinion from me.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Doesn't really similar in my opinion.

I haven't get played the earlier FF installment. But form what I read from those, the mages are actually shown using the magic to change the concept. While the one that using CM in Lifestream is the consciousness of lifestream itself. There aren't user that was shown to actually use lifestream in conceptual way.

Once again, I think this is the matter of 'how' (Lifestream can change the concept of space-time because it know how, the user doesn't.) it is not the inherent energy abilities.

Let me just write this analogue.

An AI was created to control a system and it was given all of the knowledge about the system. Because of that, the AI can do almost everything that the system can handle of. And then there some John who can use the system too, but his knowledge about it is limited. Therefore John can't utilise the system at the extent of the AI.

The AI is Lifestream consciousness, the system are the Lifestream energy, while John are just your average magic user. While the highest function of that system is CM.

Anyway, that just few opinion from me.

As I mentioned before, the warped space-time is described by Aerith how things are within the Spiritual Energy, there's no mention of the Lifestream actively doing it nor of a consciousness being behind the phenomenon. She doesn't say "the Lifestream is changing the concepts of time and space" she says "the concepts of time and distance are different in the world of Mako".

Even if we go with the idea that there is a consciousness, the Cetra could communicate with the Lifestream to borrow the powers of the Planet in order to use Magic and how that is the same process to use Materia, which borrows the knowledge of the Cetra, if we go with the idea that only the Lifestream knows how to use its powers.

Thing is, Mysidian mages are not average users of magic, they are erudites, scholars dedicated to researching and developing magic in a town of spellcasters. Using the example you gave, they are not an average user, they would be like a computer engineer with a PhD on the subject.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

As I mentioned before, the warped space-time is described by Aerith how things are within the Spiritual Energy, there's no mention of the Lifestream actively doing it nor of a consciousness being behind the phenomenon. She doesn't say "the Lifestream is changing the concepts of time and space" she says "the concepts of time and distance are different in the world of Mako".

Even if we go with the idea that there is a consciousness, the Cetra could communicate with the Lifestream to borrow the powers of the Planet in order to use Magic and how that is the same process to use Materia, which borrows the knowledge of the Cetra, if we go with the idea that only the Lifestream knows how to use its powers.

Thing is, Mysidian mages are not average users of magic, they are erudites, scholars dedicated to researching and developing magic in a town of spellcasters. Using the example you gave, they are not an average user, they would be like a computer engineer with a PhD on the subject.

That’s not the argument for concept hax, the lifestream itself created the dimension that has different concepts of space and time.

Then I afraid there is a missing info here, and I need a scan where the mages in FF 7 actually use conceptual abilities.

If there just a mention of how concept of time and space are different in the world of Mako, then why every magic user have concept manip? I don't know the logic here.

And then, there aren't matters of how much knowledge those magic user have, the only qualifying part is: do they actually know and use conceptual manipulation? In every of their abilities?

If no. I don't think FF 7 (general) magic are qualified for CM.

 

[Theglassman12]

You do realize that Mages aren’t a thing in FF7 when Materia exists for anyone to use Magic right? Also we literally see Magic users in 4 use conceptual abilities with the Devils Road and it’s treated as a normal thing for Magic, so why do we need more scans on something we’ve seen, and the lifestream itself alters the concepts of space and time, meaning anyone that can utilize the lifestream itself can do the same thing. It’s simple Occam’s Razor.

Do they actually know concept hax is irrelevant to them having the ability in the first place, if a reliable source of information says it that’s all we need, we don’t need every Joe schmoe to spell it out for us. This just sounds like you trying to make arbitrary roadblocks for what qualifies for the ability in the first place.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

and the lifestream itself alters the concepts of space and time, meaning anyone that can utilize the lifestream itself can do the same thing.

I don't agree with this one chief, it is not the inherent abilities of lifestream itself (well outside the world of Mako). If there even a single case of its user having Conceptual ability, maybe I can see that.

I don't agree of using Occam's Razor in this case.

Do they actually know concept hax is irrelevant to them having the ability in the first place, if a reliable source of information says it that’s all we need, we don’t need every Joe schmoe to spell it out for us. This just sounds like you trying to make arbitrary roadblocks for what qualifies for the ability in the first place.

Apologies, but I don't think that is an arbitrary roadblocks.

We're never seen a Lifestream user actually changed the concept of time-space in game, the only case of Conceptual Manipulation are only that 'World of Mako' scan. Where there different concepts of time-space.

Saying all people who use that energy have conceptual manipulation are to far fetched.

Just ask DT.

 

[Smashtwig]

Also we literally see Magic users in 4 use conceptual abilities with the Devils Road and it’s treated as a normal thing for Magic, so why do we need more scans on something we’ve seen,

Don’t we treat each installment of FF as its own seperate verse? I specifically recall this because I originally thought we didn’t and treated it as one thing- which led me to believe that FF16 Bahamut > every other one because it can use Zettaflare which is larger than any other Flare attack we’ve seen. What’s the difference here in this case?

and the lifestream itself alters the concepts of space and time, meaning anyone that can utilize the lifestream itself can do the same thing. It’s simple Occam’s Razor.

Pretty sure he’s saying the Lifestream just has different laws of how spacetime works, not that the Lifestream is actually changing how conceptual spacetime works on the fly

we don’t need every Joe schmoe to spell it out for us.

I thought that was the general rule of thumb for VSB

 

[Eseseso]

I still am in full agreement with the OP, but are there any more voting staff who could give votes on this?

The only one so far is Glass.

 

[AdamVhenJP]

I still am in full agreement with the OP, but are there any more voting staff who could give votes on this?

The only one so far is Glass.

Forgot DarkDragonMedeus and 2 staff need one more

 

[Theglassman12]

@Smashtwig since when have we ever treated each game as a separate verse? You do realize Dissidia and Gilgamesh being canonical things says otherwise right?

Except it’s not stated to have different laws of space time, the concepts themselves are different.

So downgrade every verse that doesn’t spell everything out for us then, should be easy enough.

@Rakih_Elyan where do you think the world of Mako comes from? You do realize Mako stems from the lifestream itself right?

except for Gilgamesh who not only has conceptual manipulation for magic warping concepts of space and time but literally can cleave through the interdimensional rift of space time casually like it’s nothing in his final fight. So you’re just wrong on that front with us never seeing anyone do this in the game.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

@Rakih_Elyan where do you think the world of Mako comes from? You do realize Mako stems from the lifestream itself right?

Can any of its Conceptual Manipulation actually used by its user?

In my opinion, this is similar to a god can use mana to create a dimension doesn't mean every mortal mana user can create dimension.

World of Mako in my opinion is an unique case. Not everyone can replicate it's concept Manip.

except for Gilgamesh who not only has conceptual manipulation for magic warping concepts of space and time but literally can cleave through the interdimensional rift of space time casually like it’s nothing in his final fight. So you’re just wrong on that front with us never seeing anyone do this in the game.

Ah, forgive me. Can I see the scans?

And are you positive it is a concept manipulation? Not a simple space-time manipulation?

 

[Smashtwig]

@Smashtwig since when have we ever treated each game as a separate verse? You do realize Dissidia and Gilgamesh being canonical things says otherwise right?

Well, I guess Clive is at least tier 4 for being comparable to Zettaflare then (I straight up agree that Bahamut scales to Bahamut so)

And no, I DON’T “realize that” bro. I’m just an average 7 enjoyer

Except it’s not stated to have different laws of space time, the concepts themselves are different.

Doesn’t mean that it can change said concepts right?

So downgrade every verse that doesn’t spell everything out for us then, should be easy enough.

Lmao

 

[Hypertornado099]

and the lifestream itself alters the concepts of space and time, meaning anyone that can utilize the lifestream itself can do the same thing. It’s simple Occam’s Razor.

The lifestream doesn't alter the concept of space and time, even OP mentioned this. It just has a different concept of space and time, which isn't enough for conceptual manipulation. If you want to use the Devil's Road feat then the justification wouldn't have anything to do with the Lifestream

As I mentioned before, the warped space-time is described by Aerith how things are within the Spiritual Energy, there's no mention of the Lifestream actively doing it nor of a consciousness being behind the phenomenon. She doesn't say "the Lifestream is changing the concepts of time and space" she says "the concepts of time and distance are different in the world of Mako".

 

[G33kedzinx]

Don’t we treat each installment of FF as its own seperate verse? I specifically recall this because I originally thought we didn’t and treated it as one thing- which led me to believe that FF16 Bahamut > every other one because it can use Zettaflare which is larger than any other Flare attack we’ve seen. What’s the difference here in this case?

Dragon king bahamut from ff15 and stranger of paradise is the strongest bahamut in the ff verse.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rakih_Elyan Anyone tied to the lifestream itself like Sephiroth and the summons like Minerva and several others yes when their source of power is the lifestream itself.

It literally uses the kanji for concept, so yes it means the concept of space and time, and not just normal space time.

@Hypertornado099 The OP just said that it doesn't spell it out for us that the lifestream is actively manipulating concepts, not that it doesn't have concept hax in the first place, The devil's road feat is to show that normal users of magic can use concept hax to begin with, so the idea that anyone that has access to the lifestream doing concept hax isn't out of left field when the verse treats it as a normal thing.

@Smashtwig smfh, blud's never played 5, cringe fan.

How exactly did the concepts change to begin with? Plus we have normal magic users alter concepts easily with 4's lore, so why would a more powerful source of magic not do the same thing?

 

[Planck69]

Put me as neutral, leaning on agreeing. There are some good points made for the OP but I'm not knowledgeable enough to make any final call, even after reading the thread.