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Spider-Man General Discussion

Dark-Carioca said:
That is the excuse that gets thrown nowadays to avoid the fact that most of the artists working on these shows haven't really had much (if any) education for the jobs they're given, and that irks me, to be honest. Artstyle should NEVER serve an excuse for hiding how to draw properly... Even if the show already didn't feature any proper shading or wasn't very expressive (when even Ultimate Spider-Man didn't have those issues, and they're both crappily animated most of the time) I'd still point out how bland, unimaginitive and hollow it looks. The last She-Ra reboot thing had the same problem (honestly a lot of cartoons in the past 10 years are very style-less or rely too much on other artstyles or being messy rather than crafting their own). It kinda drives away the notion that you must put effort into your artistry.

The issue with the anime influence is that most Japanese artists have been stuck with the rather inconsistent Disney inspiration they've carried for decades and can't differentiate their designs too much across their characters' ages (some can literally keep the same eyes or even heads for their whole lives, and the "it's an artstyle thing" could work in comedies but even in serious stories they have that), whereas it's basic education for most artists anywhere that drawing different ages is pretty essential (manga artists with more realistic styles thankfully don't have this issue).

Likewise over here we are taught how to draw different genders (because beyond our superficial features and right down to our very skeletons both sexes are quite different throughout the ages), something anime struggles with quite a bit when it's not sexualizing underage girls lol (no but seriously, how MANY jokes have been made in manga and anime where characters didn't know if X character was a boy or a girl? Far too many, honestly, it's a weird joke that's never had a punchline, and I'm pretty confident it's the artists' way of pointing out their artistic flaws, but without the intelligence to make that medium-wide running gag funny)

Bit of a rant I went through, unrelated to Spider-Man at that, but I'm working on getting a job as a comic book artist/writer (historietista where I live) and art in general has been a big part of my life, so I have a lot to talk about. My point originally was that this kind of art does not fit Spider-Man at all. Spider-Man is many things, he's bright and colorful, he's nimble and dynamic, serious and potentially dark but also cheerful and funny, he's a spirited youngster but also a responsible man, he deserves all the effort necessary and with what they've had to work with, damn near every show between the 60s and 2000s that featured Spider-Man has had some degree of effort to properly adapt Spidey in many ways (all the aforementioned aspects), some better than others (as is the case with TAS and Spec), and even the Ultimate cartoon had good designs from Ed McGuinness, an artist who has rocked drawing Spidey in the past (unfortunately his designs don't shine very brightly in that animation and don't quite match the jokey style the series has).
Click to expand...
Again, this is simply your opinion. I'm sorry you got so worked up about this. I never claimed that I liked the art style, I personally don't like it too much, but I recognise that it's different.

I also don't know what you mean by "drawing properly". It's animation where liberties with anatomy are generally taken anyway. Just look at Devilman Crybaby.

About sex, human bodies vary pretty wildly. Lots of androgynous people exist after all.

Again, with spider-man shows for me I wouldn't mind an artstyle that looks like it came straight from a comic book.
 
Abu2411 said:
I'm sorry you got so worked up about this
Click to expand...
I didn't, you can write a rant without being necessarily worked up about anything.

Abu2411 said:
I also don't know what you mean by "drawing properly".
Click to expand...
Then I'm going to take your next opinions on artistry with a grain of salt xD

Abu2411 said:
It's animation where liberties with anatomy are generally taken anyway.
Click to expand...
You realize animation is a huge medium, yes? I'm not sure you got what I meant because this has nothing to do with what I said. Of course liberties can be taken in ALL art, SHOULD they be taken is another matter. If the point of the 2017 cartoon was to be artsy It'd be fine with that, but it's not. It's not artsy, it doesn't have a style of its own that people will remember. It will probably only be remembered for all the weird crap in that series, like Doc Ock being the same age as Peter and the two being school buddies.

Abu2411 said:
Just look at Devilman Crybaby.
Click to expand...
Yeah this is where I have to take your words with a grain of salt... Because unless you weren't aware, the point of Devilman, from the very beginning, was to look rather warped and weird, Go Nagai's stuff usually doesn't suffer from the criticisms in my other comment, because the way it's stylized, the intent is pretty evident. There has to be a point behind character designs, otherwise they might as well be using stick figures, and there is no point to the ones in Marvel's Spider-Man other to remove all the positive things I've mentioned other Spider-Man adaptations try to respect. The brightness, the color, the dynamic and nimble nature, aside from maybe one scene where they hint at Uncle Ben's death I don't remember anything coming close to other Spider-Man adaptations.

Abu2411 said:
About sex, human bodies vary pretty wildly.
Click to expand...
Yes but on average the skeletons and the musculature can be very distinctly differentiated, unless you don't have an eye for that sort of thing. Physical diversity is nice, but the entertainment industry for the longest time has valued the healthy standard over most, because we kind of need to be strong and healthy to survive (being lazy isn't a way of life after all xD).

I've drawn a variety of models, clothed and naked, of a variety of ages, but even without that experience it's rather easy for the human eye to tell who is what, especially in the adult state of the body (when they're very little it's a different story). We've had those keen senses specifically for generations, as do many other animals.

Abu2411 said:
Again, with spider-man shows for me I wouldn't mind an artstyle that looks like it came straight from a comic book.
Click to expand...
We've had that many times.

The Spider-Man shows of the 60s and 80s are all based on the designs the characters had at the time and many actual comic book artists worked on those. TAS was partially based on the John Romita run, Spider-Man Unlimited uses the heavy shadows influenced by comics at the time (such as Spider-Man 2099 of course), Spec's designs were created by Sean Galloway who is a comic book artist, etcetera, etcetera.
 
Btw, I'm doing some Shattered Dimensions feat gathering atm

In the bizarre case that I can't find something specific through clips, I could just boot up the game on my 360
 
TheRustyOne is really good with getting models out of games, so we could ask him for help if necessary.
 
Spider-Man 2099 (SD) feats:
(Speed) Spider-Man can move at the speed of light with 2099 Charge Attack [Also note that this attack + its upgrades allows him to hit multiple targets in succession, so this isn't just Miguel travelling in a straight line, he has to consciously react to turn himself]
Spider-Man completely destroys jet bikes with zip kicks
Hobgoblin is capable of reality warping on relatively large scale with his psi-powers, which is then enhanced when applying the fragment's power
Hobgoblin's bombs, which he can tank, are capable of mostly destroying metal structures

Spider-Man Noir (SD) feats:
Spider-Man rolls faster than bullets can reach him well after they're fired
Survives one of Vulture's Molotov Cocktails, which causes significant structural damage to a large building
Goblin casually pushes off a ferris wheel

Ultimate Spider-Man (SD) feats:
(Speed) Electro claims he moves at the speed of light
A portion of the ground that Electro destroy is shown
Damage caused by either Carnage or those they infected is shown
Carnage survives being sent into Helicarrier engines that activate several times when fighting Spider-Man
Spider-Man throws Carnage into a large support hard enough to destroy it an collapse the platform its holding

Abilities:

Amazing Spider-Man (SD):
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Genius Intelligence, Acrobatics, Martial Arts, Weapon Mastery, Web Creation, Surface Scaling, Precognition (Can detect danger before it happens. Capable of sensing whenever enemies are going to counter his own attacks and alerts Spider-Man of ideal moments to counter), Enhanced Senses (Madame Web augmented all of the Spider-Men's Spider-Senses, allowing them to detect their surroundings, including individuals around them, structural weakpoints, and environmental objects relevant to current tasks. Can see through solid surfaces, smoke, and darkness as well as recognize specific people even when not directly in sight. Knew precisely where Kraven was sniping from, using this to direct his shots into trees while fighting off the villain's trained disciples), Shockwave Creation (The Spider Stomp unleashes a shockwave that harms and pushes back surrounding targets), Regeneration (Low; All four Spider-Men have regeneration), Weapon Creation (Can shape his webbing into large hammers and spiked weaponry)

Ultimate Spider-Man (SD):
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Genius Intelligence, Acrobatics, Martial Arts, Web Creation, Surface Scaling, Precognition (Can detect danger before it happens. Capable of sensing whenever enemies are going to counter his own attacks and alerts Spider-Man of ideal moments to counter), Enhanced Senses (Madame Web augmented all of the Spider-Men's Spider-Senses, allowing them to detect their surroundings, including individuals around them, structural weakpoints, and environmental objects relevant to current tasks. Can see through solid surfaces, smoke, and darkness as well as recognize specific people even when not directly in sight), Shockwave Creation (The Spider Stomp unleashes a shockwave that harms and pushes back surrounding targets), Regeneration (Low; All four Spider-Men have regeneration), Statistics Amplification (Was granted the Symbiote as to enhance his abilities and physical attributes without the risk of losing control), Rage Power, Elasticity and Shapeshifting (Can use the Symbiote to stretch out tendrils and form spikes from his body), Non-Physical Interaction (Can harm and defeat creatures made of pure energy), Resistance to Corruption (Granted the ability to safely don the Black Suit without becoming violent and uncontrollable), Empathic Manipulation (Spider-Man is capable of utilizing the power from rage boosts without losing himself to aggressive emotions)

Spider-Man 2099 (SD):
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Genius Intelligence, Acrobatics, Martial Arts, Natural Weaponry, Stealth Mastery (Easily snuck into Alchemax without being noticed), Web Creation, Surface Scaling, Precognition (Can detect danger before it happens with the newly bestowed Spider-Man. Capable of sensing whenever enemies are going to counter his own attacks and alerts Spider-Man of ideal moments to counter), Enhanced Senses (Madame Web augmented all of the Spider-Men's Spider-Senses, allowing them to detect their surroundings, including individuals around them, structural weakpoints, and environmental objects relevant to current tasks. Can see through solid surfaces, smoke, and darkness as well as recognize specific people even when not directly in sight), Shockwave Creation (The Spider Stomp unleashes a shockwave that harms and pushes back surrounding targets), Regeneration (Low; All four Spider-Men have regeneration), Perception Manipulation (With Accelerated Vision, time seemingly slows down for Miguel, allowing him to more easily dodge or redirect homing missiles and outspeed enemies effortlessly)

Spider-Man Noir (SD):
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Acrobatics, Martial Arts, Stealth Mastery (Between the alternate Spider-Men he worked with, Noir excels the most at stealth, above the likes of Spider-Man 2099 who snuck into Alchemax with ease. Noir's utilizes the darkness provided by the shadows to such a degree that he can stand a few meters from a group of threats without even a hint of his presence. Followed Hammerhead and his men, taking out his forces without being noticed. Even when Hammerhead blasted apart large portions of cover with gunfire and had large spotlights scanning the area, Noir landed three sneak attacks on the villain. Took down alleyways patrolled by henchmen and avoided spotlights while climbing on building walls while tracking Vulture. Quietly took out a carnival heavily guarded with armed criminals while freeing hostages), Web Creation (While he had already possessed the ability to use webbing, Madame Web enhanced this ability significantly), Surface Scaling, Precognition (Can detect danger before it happens. Capable of sensing whenever enemies are going to counter his own attacks and alerts Spider-Man of ideal moments to counter), Enhanced Senses (Madame Web augmented all of the Spider-Men's Spider-Senses, allowing them to detect their surroundings, including individuals around them, structural weakpoints, and environmental objects relevant to current tasks. Can see through solid surfaces, smoke, and darkness as well as recognize specific people even when not directly in sight. Easily fought off several gang members attack him from pitch black locations. Had no trouble taking down three crooks after having gas briefly weaken his senses), Shockwave Creation (The Spider Stomp unleashes a shockwave that harms and pushes back surrounding targets), Regeneration (Low; All four Spider-Men have regeneration), Air Manipulation (The Noir Whirlwind Punch unleashes air based strikes. The Black Gust attacks allow enemies to "feel the power of the wind", sending nearby targets into the air)


There may be some more stuff I'm missing
 
Lonkitt said:
Spider-Man 2099 (SD) feats:
(Speed) Spider-Man can move at the speed of light with 2099 Charge Attack [Also note that this attack + its upgrades allows him to hit multiple targets in succession, so this isn't just Miguel travelling in a straight line, he has to consciously react to turn himself]
Spider-Man completely destroys jet bikes with zip kicks
Hobgoblin is capable of reality warping on relatively large scale with his psi-powers, which is then enhanced when applying the fragment's power
Hobgoblin's bombs, which he can tank, are capable of mostly destroying metal structures

Spider-Man Noir (SD) feats:
Spider-Man rolls faster than bullets can reach him well after they're fired
Survives one of Vulture's Molotov Cocktails, which causes significant structural damage to a large building
Goblin casually pushes off a ferris wheel

Ultimate Spider-Man (SD) feats:
(Speed) Electro claims he moves at the speed of light
A portion of the ground that Electro destroy is shown
Damage caused by either Carnage or those they infected is shown
Carnage survives being sent into Helicarrier engines that activate several times when fighting Spider-Man
Spider-Man throws Carnage into a large support hard enough to destroy it an collapse the platform its holding

Abilities:

Amazing Spider-Man (SD):
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Genius Intelligence, Acrobatics, Martial Arts, Weapon Mastery, Web Creation, Surface Scaling, Precognition (Can detect danger before it happens. Capable of sensing whenever enemies are going to counter his own attacks and alerts Spider-Man of ideal moments to counter), Enhanced Senses (Madame Web augmented all of the Spider-Men's Spider-Senses, allowing them to detect their surroundings, including individuals around them, structural weakpoints, and environmental objects relevant to current tasks. Can see through solid surfaces, smoke, and darkness as well as recognize specific people even when not directly in sight. Knew precisely where Kraven was sniping from, using this to direct his shots into trees while fighting off the villain's trained disciples), Shockwave Creation (The Spider Stomp unleashes a shockwave that harms and pushes back surrounding targets), Regeneration (Low; All four Spider-Men have regeneration), Weapon Creation (Can shape his webbing into large hammers and spiked weaponry)

Ultimate Spider-Man (SD):
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Genius Intelligence, Acrobatics, Martial Arts, Web Creation, Surface Scaling, Precognition (Can detect danger before it happens. Capable of sensing whenever enemies are going to counter his own attacks and alerts Spider-Man of ideal moments to counter), Enhanced Senses (Madame Web augmented all of the Spider-Men's Spider-Senses, allowing them to detect their surroundings, including individuals around them, structural weakpoints, and environmental objects relevant to current tasks. Can see through solid surfaces, smoke, and darkness as well as recognize specific people even when not directly in sight), Shockwave Creation (The Spider Stomp unleashes a shockwave that harms and pushes back surrounding targets), Regeneration (Low; All four Spider-Men have regeneration), Statistics Amplification (Was granted the Symbiote as to enhance his abilities and physical attributes without the risk of losing control), Rage Power, Elasticity and Shapeshifting (Can use the Symbiote to stretch out tendrils and form spikes from his body), Non-Physical Interaction (Can harm and defeat creatures made of pure energy), Resistance to Corruption (Granted the ability to safely don the Black Suit without becoming violent and uncontrollable), Empathic Manipulation (Spider-Man is capable of utilizing the power from rage boosts without losing himself to aggressive emotions)

Spider-Man 2099 (SD):
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Genius Intelligence, Acrobatics, Martial Arts, Natural Weaponry, Stealth Mastery (Easily snuck into Alchemax without being noticed), Web Creation, Surface Scaling, Precognition (Can detect danger before it happens with the newly bestowed Spider-Man. Capable of sensing whenever enemies are going to counter his own attacks and alerts Spider-Man of ideal moments to counter), Enhanced Senses (Madame Web augmented all of the Spider-Men's Spider-Senses, allowing them to detect their surroundings, including individuals around them, structural weakpoints, and environmental objects relevant to current tasks. Can see through solid surfaces, smoke, and darkness as well as recognize specific people even when not directly in sight), Shockwave Creation (The Spider Stomp unleashes a shockwave that harms and pushes back surrounding targets), Regeneration (Low; All four Spider-Men have regeneration), Perception Manipulation (With Accelerated Vision, time seemingly slows down for Miguel, allowing him to more easily dodge or redirect homing missiles and outspeed enemies effortlessly)

Spider-Man Noir (SD):
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Acrobatics, Martial Arts, Stealth Mastery (Between the alternate Spider-Men he worked with, Noir excels the most at stealth, above the likes of Spider-Man 2099 who snuck into Alchemax with ease. Noir's utilizes the darkness provided by the shadows to such a degree that he can stand a few meters from a group of threats without even a hint of his presence. Followed Hammerhead and his men, taking out his forces without being noticed. Even when Hammerhead blasted apart large portions of cover with gunfire and had large spotlights scanning the area, Noir landed three sneak attacks on the villain. Took down alleyways patrolled by henchmen and avoided spotlights while climbing on building walls while tracking Vulture. Quietly took out a carnival heavily guarded with armed criminals while freeing hostages), Web Creation (While he had already possessed the ability to use webbing, Madame Web enhanced this ability significantly), Surface Scaling, Precognition (Can detect danger before it happens. Capable of sensing whenever enemies are going to counter his own attacks and alerts Spider-Man of ideal moments to counter), Enhanced Senses (Madame Web augmented all of the Spider-Men's Spider-Senses, allowing them to detect their surroundings, including individuals around them, structural weakpoints, and environmental objects relevant to current tasks. Can see through solid surfaces, smoke, and darkness as well as recognize specific people even when not directly in sight. Easily fought off several gang members attack him from pitch black locations. Had no trouble taking down three crooks after having gas briefly weaken his senses), Shockwave Creation (The Spider Stomp unleashes a shockwave that harms and pushes back surrounding targets), Regeneration (Low; All four Spider-Men have regeneration), Air Manipulation (The Noir Whirlwind Punch unleashes air based strikes. The Black Gust attacks allow enemies to "feel the power of the wind", sending nearby targets into the air)


There may be some more stuff I'm missing
Click to expand...
In EoT, during the end credits, there's a whole calculation about how fast 2099 is falling. Hell, it even shows that the Alchemax building or however you say it is taller than Mount Everest
 
I'm writing down a list of all these feats on my Spider-Man sandbox, they'll probably be useful in the future (unless someone wants to handle them while I deal with TAS)

btw, the TAS Venom feat was accepted, I'm gonna focus on Shocker and the craters caused by the Goblins (as well as the destruction of the Bugle)
 
Oh yeah, another thing about SD. There's also some green enemies during the Electro level that fire pretty legit lasers at you. From my personal experience playing the game, I know you can in fact dodge them when fire directly at you, but I'd have to find somebody's specific playthrough for that one feat (not very easy)
 
Could season 1 Venom and Symbiote Spidey be Building level+ for upscaling from Rhino? Since Rhino scales to 1 Ton and the requirement for + is 1.125 Tons
 
Did you attempt to get the median number, or...? That skull isn't telling me much.

I should also add that, if it's a US ton that's 907.18474 kilograms, which is still Building level but a bit farther than 1 tonne.
 
Dark-Carioca said:
I didn't, you can write a rant without being necessarily worked up about anything.


Then I'm going to take your next opinions on artistry with a grain of salt xD


You realize animation is a huge medium, yes? I'm not sure you got what I meant because this has nothing to do with what I said. Of course liberties can be taken in ALL art, SHOULD they be taken is another matter. If the point of the 2017 cartoon was to be artsy It'd be fine with that, but it's not. It's not artsy, it doesn't have a style of its own that people will remember. It will probably only be remembered for all the weird crap in that series, like Doc Ock being the same age as Peter and the two being school buddies.


Yeah this is where I have to take your words with a grain of salt... Because unless you weren't aware, the point of Devilman, from the very beginning, was to look rather warped and weird, Go Nagai's stuff usually doesn't suffer from the criticisms in my other comment, because the way it's stylized, the intent is pretty evident. There has to be a point behind character designs, otherwise they might as well be using stick figures, and there is no point to the ones in Marvel's Spider-Man other to remove all the positive things I've mentioned other Spider-Man adaptations try to respect. The brightness, the color, the dynamic and nimble nature, aside from maybe one scene where they hint at Uncle Ben's death I don't remember anything coming close to other Spider-Man adaptations.


Yes but on average the skeletons and the musculature can be very distinctly differentiated, unless you don't have an eye for that sort of thing. Physical diversity is nice, but the entertainment industry for the longest time has valued the healthy standard over most, because we kind of need to be strong and healthy to survive (being lazy isn't a way of life after all xD).

I've drawn a variety of models, clothed and naked, of a variety of ages, but even without that experience it's rather easy for the human eye to tell who is what, especially in the adult state of the body (when they're very little it's a different story). We've had those keen senses specifically for generations, as do many other animals.


We've had that many times.

The Spider-Man shows of the 60s and 80s are all based on the designs the characters had at the time and many actual comic book artists worked on those. TAS was partially based on the John Romita run, Spider-Man Unlimited uses the heavy shadows influenced by comics at the time (such as Spider-Man 2099 of course), Spec's designs were created by Sean Galloway who is a comic book artist, etcetera, etcetera.
Click to expand...
The main point I am arguing is that all of this is simply your preference and not something 'objectively' wrong with with the show. I don't mind if you didn't like the art style for it, but to say it's wrong or not "drawn properly" doesn't make any sense. Giving value judgements on a work will always be subjective. There doesn't necessarily need to be a point behind anything.

Why shouldn't we have more body diversity? We don't live in an age where we need to "strong and healthy" to survive. Again, androgynous people exist so why not draw them? Spider-man especially as a teen can rock a fairly androgynous look. Like in the Ultimate Spider-Man comic.
 
Abu2411 said:
The main point I am arguing is that all of this is simply your preference and not something 'objectively' wrong with with the show. I don't mind if you didn't like the art style for it, but to say it's wrong or not "drawn properly" doesn't make any sense. Giving value judgements on a work will always be subjective. There doesn't necessarily need to be a point behind anything.
Click to expand...
Okay, you have not read anything of what I've written if your reply is this. At no point did I say you have to dislike it or feel the same way I did, but you're missing a lot of points on artistry (be it character designs or art in its purest form) in general.

If you're going to miss every bit of criticism I give you, I might as well not say any more.

Abu2411 said:
Why shouldn't we have more body diversity? We don't live in an age where we need to "strong and healthy" to survive. Again, androgynous people exist so why not draw them? Spider-man especially as a teen can rock a fairly androgynous look. Like in the Ultimate Spider-Man comic.
Click to expand...
You look at the Gwen Stacy and MJ of those comics and then look at Peter. He is a kid, a teen, very clearly. His proportions, his facial features, you couldn't confuse that with a woman, ever, unless you needed four sets of glasses lol

Abu2411 said:
With that yee-yee ass haircut
Click to expand...
...Seriously? That is your biggest argument? Hair of most kinds can literally be made to look good on any gender. That isn't sex-defining, it never has been. Even in the most ancient of days both men and women could be seen with long and/or curly hair, for instance, be they warriors, maidens or whatever. In some cases long hair was even a sign of power.
 
Alright so while y'all are talking about Ultimate Pete's haircut being bad and him being androgynous, let's see who the ugliest Peter is.

My votes on Tasm 2 (game version) Peter
 
AnAverageUsername said:
ugliest Peter
Click to expand...
The Maguire model from the Raimi games is up there.

Depending on the artist, in the comics poor Pete can also look pretty rough, not everyone can draw him as handsomely as McFarlane or Romita Jr, some like Billy Tan or Olivier Coipel do him pretty dirty. As Pete that is, their Spideys on the other hand are kinda adequate.
 
Dark-Carioca said:
Okay, you have not read anything of what I've written if your reply is this. At no point did I say you have to dislike it or feel the same way I did, but you're missing a lot of points on artistry (be it character designs or art in its purest form) in general.

If you're going to miss every bit of criticism I give you, I might as well not say any more.
Click to expand...
I am not saying that you are claiming everyone should feel the way about art as you do. I am simply saying that something like art is inherently subjective so assigning value judgements on it is a matter of opinion rather than a fact or just “artists not knowing how to draw properly”. I’ve read your criticisms and I don’t find them all too compelling since to me it assumes that there is a correct way to do art when there really isn’t.

If you don’t want to continue this conversation, well that’s up to you dude. I’m just saying my piece.

Dark-Carioca said:
You look at the Gwen Stacy and MJ of those comics and then look at Peter. He is a kid, a teen, very clearly. His proportions, his facial features, you couldn't confuse that with a woman, ever, unless you needed four sets of glasses lol
Click to expand...
That’s not exactly what androgynous means. It doesn’t always mean you outright confuse a guy for a girl, it can also mean that you have a male with a lot of feminine characteristics, basically a femboy. It’s almost like it’s in-between male and female, that’s generally what the term androgynous means, so characters like Johnny Joestar fit this bill too.
Dark-Carioca said:
...Seriously? That is your biggest argument? Hair of most kinds can literally be made to look good on any gender. That isn't sex-defining, it never has been. Even in the most ancient of days both men and women could be seen with long and/or curly hair, for instance, be they warriors, maidens or whatever. In some cases long hair was even a sign of power.
Click to expand...
It was more of a joke, that actually isn’t my biggest argument for Ultimate Peter looking androgynous to me. It’s how his proportions, size, face and yes, his hair as well that gives him feminine characteristics and hence, makes him look androgynous. Whatever the standard was in ancient times wherever that’s cool, but today long hair is seen as a feminine trait, probably because it’s more commonly seen with women.
 
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