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Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse Discussion Thread - WITH SPOILERS
- Thread starter SuperStar
- Start date
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Go ahead
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I should mention that I am a Salvadoran-American who was born to Salvadoran immigrants from the 80s. Additionally, unlike many people, my connection to my Latin American heritage is quite weak (largely because of various issues in my life that I'm not comfortable discussing) and thus I can't speak for all Salvadorans, let alone all Hispanic people, even if I had more connection as I'd just be one man. So if anyone else is Hispanic I invite them to the conversation, especially if they are Mexican & Puerto Rican. I also welcome others to join the discussion.
Personally, I had mixed feelings about the way Hispanic people were represented in these movies. When I watched the first movie last year, I felt that even though Morales was clearly Afro-Latino and the movie made a few attempts to highlight it, I felt that the Spanish aspects of Miles' character and being was pushed aside for the sake of his blackness, particularly in regard to his relationship with his Hispanic mother. His black dad and uncle had a lot of characterization in the film and they were very monumental in shaping Miles' ideology in regards to being Spider-man. Rio Morales, by contrast, was quite trite in relation to Jefferson and Aaron. She worked as a nurse who largely interacted with Morales at the home and had little to offer to him creating his philosophy as a superhero in the city. Throughout the whole film, she had little role to play, despite being his mother, and instead other female characters like Gwen (who is white) and Peni Parker (whose Asian characterization has been argued to be stereotypical). In short, the sole character traits Rio had was that she was a mom and for a very long time I didn't even know what her name was, even after I watched Across the Spider-Verse. Overall, the representation for Latino culture was a bit lackluster.
Now, I should mention that biracial or binational people skewing to one side of their race or ethnicity is not inherently bad and is not racist when writers implement that into their writing. I believe that expecting all multiethnic people to have connection to both cultures is in itself racist and I do not blame Miles or even the writers behind him to skew to one over the other, I and millions of people have experienced that in some form and I don't believe it's fair for me to hold it against them. My issue with the first film mostly lied with a female Hispanic person being unable to serve an essential role and develop meaningful connections in a movie in relation to other people. That said, even though I was willing to accept Miles' situation in regards to his multiethnicity, I was still hoping that Latino culture would be expressed through Miguel and Rio if she got a more prominent role in the movie.
In this movie, it turned out to be the case. Rio got a more prominent role in the movie and Puerto Rican culture was granted much more visibility compared to the previous film. As well as the fact that Spanish is spoken more than the first film. But what made me feel unsatisfied with her character in the story was how little she evolved from this archetype of her being Miles' mom and how little her relationship with her son actually progressed in the first half of the film. It was constant back-and-forth arguments between Rio and her husband towards Miles which eventually leads to the scene in the rooftop where Rio bizarrely allows Miles to go on his own despite him being grounded and him meeting a girl she has never seen before. I know that this scene was meant to show her approaching Miles' situation and attempting to understand and allow him to grow on his own terms, but when this scene happened it felt pretty rushed since there was nothing preceding her decision to let her son go. She spent the entire movie up to that point being confused and frustrated with Miles for not being honest with her and IIRC even gossiped Gwen as a person who couldn't speak Spanish when she saw her. I don't know how else to say this but Rio felt strangely stereotypical. Her character in the first half of the film felt very confused and weird to me and in the second half of the film she faded away into nothing like in the first movie. I barely remembered her speech to her son even when I saw her alternate self when Miles was in the wrong universe which, by the way, ruined his character progression into being able to come out to his mother about his identity. And, just like with the first movie, Miles' relationship with his dad was much more refined and consistent compared to his connection with his mother, carrying over the same issues I had with the first movie and that being a female Hispanic person being unable to express her character which is why I feel that Rio Morales was mid, if not wasted, in this movie and I wish that the producers uplifted the Morales-Davis family's racial and ethnic backgrounds more equally.
So on about Miguel, I think he was alright, even though he sort of suffered the same situation everyone had in that he ended up not achieving or doing a lot. His interactions with everyone and especially Miles was spot on and his motivations and characterization, unlike Rio, was very good and I felt that he was a great antagonist and serves a very prominent role in the movie. That said, his Irish-Mexican was sort of invisible throughout the whole movie and I felt that his Spanish interaction with Miles could have been more numerous simply because I felt that they were charming. Regardless, he is a great character and I feel pretty excited for him.
So, in comparison to the previous movie, I feel that Hispanic representation had improved quite a bit, but ultimately there were many issues that I felt should have been resolved wound up being left alone and that disappointed me. Anyways, I am curious to know how others feel about this film and how it represents racial and sexual minorities.
Personally, I had mixed feelings about the way Hispanic people were represented in these movies. When I watched the first movie last year, I felt that even though Morales was clearly Afro-Latino and the movie made a few attempts to highlight it, I felt that the Spanish aspects of Miles' character and being was pushed aside for the sake of his blackness, particularly in regard to his relationship with his Hispanic mother. His black dad and uncle had a lot of characterization in the film and they were very monumental in shaping Miles' ideology in regards to being Spider-man. Rio Morales, by contrast, was quite trite in relation to Jefferson and Aaron. She worked as a nurse who largely interacted with Morales at the home and had little to offer to him creating his philosophy as a superhero in the city. Throughout the whole film, she had little role to play, despite being his mother, and instead other female characters like Gwen (who is white) and Peni Parker (whose Asian characterization has been argued to be stereotypical). In short, the sole character traits Rio had was that she was a mom and for a very long time I didn't even know what her name was, even after I watched Across the Spider-Verse. Overall, the representation for Latino culture was a bit lackluster.
Now, I should mention that biracial or binational people skewing to one side of their race or ethnicity is not inherently bad and is not racist when writers implement that into their writing. I believe that expecting all multiethnic people to have connection to both cultures is in itself racist and I do not blame Miles or even the writers behind him to skew to one over the other, I and millions of people have experienced that in some form and I don't believe it's fair for me to hold it against them. My issue with the first film mostly lied with a female Hispanic person being unable to serve an essential role and develop meaningful connections in a movie in relation to other people. That said, even though I was willing to accept Miles' situation in regards to his multiethnicity, I was still hoping that Latino culture would be expressed through Miguel and Rio if she got a more prominent role in the movie.
In this movie, it turned out to be the case. Rio got a more prominent role in the movie and Puerto Rican culture was granted much more visibility compared to the previous film. As well as the fact that Spanish is spoken more than the first film. But what made me feel unsatisfied with her character in the story was how little she evolved from this archetype of her being Miles' mom and how little her relationship with her son actually progressed in the first half of the film. It was constant back-and-forth arguments between Rio and her husband towards Miles which eventually leads to the scene in the rooftop where Rio bizarrely allows Miles to go on his own despite him being grounded and him meeting a girl she has never seen before. I know that this scene was meant to show her approaching Miles' situation and attempting to understand and allow him to grow on his own terms, but when this scene happened it felt pretty rushed since there was nothing preceding her decision to let her son go. She spent the entire movie up to that point being confused and frustrated with Miles for not being honest with her and IIRC even gossiped Gwen as a person who couldn't speak Spanish when she saw her. I don't know how else to say this but Rio felt strangely stereotypical. Her character in the first half of the film felt very confused and weird to me and in the second half of the film she faded away into nothing like in the first movie. I barely remembered her speech to her son even when I saw her alternate self when Miles was in the wrong universe which, by the way, ruined his character progression into being able to come out to his mother about his identity. And, just like with the first movie, Miles' relationship with his dad was much more refined and consistent compared to his connection with his mother, carrying over the same issues I had with the first movie and that being a female Hispanic person being unable to express her character which is why I feel that Rio Morales was mid, if not wasted, in this movie and I wish that the producers uplifted the Morales-Davis family's racial and ethnic backgrounds more equally.
So on about Miguel, I think he was alright, even though he sort of suffered the same situation everyone had in that he ended up not achieving or doing a lot. His interactions with everyone and especially Miles was spot on and his motivations and characterization, unlike Rio, was very good and I felt that he was a great antagonist and serves a very prominent role in the movie. That said, his Irish-Mexican was sort of invisible throughout the whole movie and I felt that his Spanish interaction with Miles could have been more numerous simply because I felt that they were charming. Regardless, he is a great character and I feel pretty excited for him.
So, in comparison to the previous movie, I feel that Hispanic representation had improved quite a bit, but ultimately there were many issues that I felt should have been resolved wound up being left alone and that disappointed me. Anyways, I am curious to know how others feel about this film and how it represents racial and sexual minorities.
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Professional black guy here.
For me personally, I wasn't really concerned about representation in that sense. My issues with representation are mainly more focused in it being to a sequel of a story, as well as how it adapts characters they introduce within it. However, I will make the note that Earth-42 Miles appeared to have a thicker accent than Miles, more than likely because his dad is dead in that earth and he would have been raised by his mother primarily. I thought that was a nice little detail (aside from Prowler!Miles looking super cool).
For me, I like I said above, I was more concerned with consistent characterization and all. I like the somewhat evolved Miles, and his dynamic with his parents, including aforementioned scenes like Miles and Rio's Spanish interactions. I also like how Genke didn't immediately become the "guy in the chair", but how it seems like it's going to build up to that. My brother brought up a criticism I agree with, which is that he felt Peter B. should have taken Miles's side earlier, given the almost father-son or student-mentor relationship the two of them had, but we both did like how the Notorious P.B.P. was proud of Miles for holding his own against the Spider-Society.
Miguel O'Hara was a gigachad menace, but while it was great for the movie, I kind of feel a little disheartened that a portrayal of him that was a nudge away from villainous and that kicked his pragmatism up to 11 is going to be what people mainly think of when they think of Spider-Man 2099, especially given that a lot of people are introduced to these characters from movies and TV shows rather than comics (because ironically Marvel Comics is probably more well known for its characters and their portrayals in movies than they are for their comics). Also, people are probably going to think the guy is legitimately a vampire for the same reasons, or think the Spot is a multiversal threat when in the comics he's a D-Tier villain.
On the topic of the Spot, really liked his characterization and him snapping on Miles, especially given how they spruced up his backstory and made it tie in with Miles. Man went from going "please let me rob you!" to almost being on demon time before switching timezones again because demon time was too slow. Seriously, when he mentioned the bagel (hence The Bagel Effect), my guy was almost approaching Eobard Thawne levels of petty.
Felt it was weird they went with preggers Jessica Drew, but whatever. She did kind of switch up from motherly instinct to strict parent, but given the main events take place months after Gwen gets recruited, it's fine with me.
So yeah, that's the representation I focused on: characterization and its consistency as a sequel, with comics, and even within itself as its own movie. It was pretty good on that end, for the most part.
As for racial and sexual representation, it's never been something super important to me. I just like well-written characters, and certain characters can resonate with me even in spite of not having my same race, gender, or sexuality. It still is important to me, but at the same time, I hate when people try to consider me black based on stereotypical stuff, like assuming that because I'm tall I play basketball, etc. Race is a descriptor, not a personality thing, so I don't judge how a black person (or character) is and say that they weren't "black enough" or not. To me, if a person is black, or Hispanic, or Asian, or so on and so forth, they're an accurate representation of their race, because they're individuals within a race, and not every individual is exactly the same. Same thing with sexual representation.
But that's my take on it, anyways.
For me personally, I wasn't really concerned about representation in that sense. My issues with representation are mainly more focused in it being to a sequel of a story, as well as how it adapts characters they introduce within it. However, I will make the note that Earth-42 Miles appeared to have a thicker accent than Miles, more than likely because his dad is dead in that earth and he would have been raised by his mother primarily. I thought that was a nice little detail (aside from Prowler!Miles looking super cool).
For me, I like I said above, I was more concerned with consistent characterization and all. I like the somewhat evolved Miles, and his dynamic with his parents, including aforementioned scenes like Miles and Rio's Spanish interactions. I also like how Genke didn't immediately become the "guy in the chair", but how it seems like it's going to build up to that. My brother brought up a criticism I agree with, which is that he felt Peter B. should have taken Miles's side earlier, given the almost father-son or student-mentor relationship the two of them had, but we both did like how the Notorious P.B.P. was proud of Miles for holding his own against the Spider-Society.
Miguel O'Hara was a gigachad menace, but while it was great for the movie, I kind of feel a little disheartened that a portrayal of him that was a nudge away from villainous and that kicked his pragmatism up to 11 is going to be what people mainly think of when they think of Spider-Man 2099, especially given that a lot of people are introduced to these characters from movies and TV shows rather than comics (because ironically Marvel Comics is probably more well known for its characters and their portrayals in movies than they are for their comics). Also, people are probably going to think the guy is legitimately a vampire for the same reasons, or think the Spot is a multiversal threat when in the comics he's a D-Tier villain.
On the topic of the Spot, really liked his characterization and him snapping on Miles, especially given how they spruced up his backstory and made it tie in with Miles. Man went from going "please let me rob you!" to almost being on demon time before switching timezones again because demon time was too slow. Seriously, when he mentioned the bagel (hence The Bagel Effect), my guy was almost approaching Eobard Thawne levels of petty.
Felt it was weird they went with preggers Jessica Drew, but whatever. She did kind of switch up from motherly instinct to strict parent, but given the main events take place months after Gwen gets recruited, it's fine with me.
So yeah, that's the representation I focused on: characterization and its consistency as a sequel, with comics, and even within itself as its own movie. It was pretty good on that end, for the most part.
As for racial and sexual representation, it's never been something super important to me. I just like well-written characters, and certain characters can resonate with me even in spite of not having my same race, gender, or sexuality. It still is important to me, but at the same time, I hate when people try to consider me black based on stereotypical stuff, like assuming that because I'm tall I play basketball, etc. Race is a descriptor, not a personality thing, so I don't judge how a black person (or character) is and say that they weren't "black enough" or not. To me, if a person is black, or Hispanic, or Asian, or so on and so forth, they're an accurate representation of their race, because they're individuals within a race, and not every individual is exactly the same. Same thing with sexual representation.
But that's my take on it, anyways.
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When the movie comes out on digital we definitely will want an alternate image for Peni's new mech.
I do notice she wasn't seen anywhere in the chase; can be explained by them not wanting to have to keep track of another character, but is it possible her mech isn't as fast as Miles or that she simply stayed behind, hinting early at her second-guessing this idea?
Hoping to see some feats from Peni outside the suit; we can put her at Supersonic reaction speed for piloting the mech fast enough to keep up with the others but we only have her slightly injuring someone. Scorpion is clearly physically intimidating so that may still say something for her but we'll need to see more from her.
I do notice she wasn't seen anywhere in the chase; can be explained by them not wanting to have to keep track of another character, but is it possible her mech isn't as fast as Miles or that she simply stayed behind, hinting early at her second-guessing this idea?
Hoping to see some feats from Peni outside the suit; we can put her at Supersonic reaction speed for piloting the mech fast enough to keep up with the others but we only have her slightly injuring someone. Scorpion is clearly physically intimidating so that may still say something for her but we'll need to see more from her.
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I kinda wish she got to do more, honestly. I feel like she was the most underused Spider-Person in the movie, obviously ignoring the ones that are just cameos or background fodder for the big chase scene.
ÆONS
He/Him- 1,484
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That moment Miles possibly injured the fetus.
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That's part of why I wasn't a big fan of them going with the preggers design for her in the movie or even in the comics. What if she gets hit in a fight the wrong way and ends up having a miscarriage or something? You've got to either recognize that this could happen in that kind of situation, and it would not only be on who she's fighting, but also on her for choosing to fight crime while several months pregnant, or come up with some plot reason why the baby/fetus isn't going to suffer any injury. The movie kind of did neither.
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W credibility
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I remember seeing a yt comment that jokingly said the fetus had spider powers
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Spider-Ham's profile seems lacking given how many cartoonish abilities he displays in his short, such as duplication, shapeshifting, and sort of teleporting (swapping places with the baddie in the short).
Of course, one can argue these abilities would only apply to him in his universe, but still.
Of course, one can argue these abilities would only apply to him in his universe, but still.
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After (re)watching ITSV, Miles definitely had the worst, and in my opinion, realistic Year 1.
Thrusted into an impossible amount of responsibility by a fallen hero, realizing you just aren’t ready in the face of so many other talented heroes, discovering your uncle was part of the organization that killed Spider-Man as he attempts to kill you (for the second time), only for him to be shot while refusing to harm you, and die in your arms.
I would’ve folded so many times over.
Thrusted into an impossible amount of responsibility by a fallen hero, realizing you just aren’t ready in the face of so many other talented heroes, discovering your uncle was part of the organization that killed Spider-Man as he attempts to kill you (for the second time), only for him to be shot while refusing to harm you, and die in your arms.
I would’ve folded so many times over.
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Year 2: Meets a guy who turned into an eldritch horror and plans to ruin his life, learns that his dad's death is a canon event in his line of fate, is omitted from learning vital information by his closest friends, learns he wasn't supposed to be bitten by the spider that gave him his powers, which deliberately and directly puts into question his arc from the first movie, and gets sent to the wrong universe with no way back
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Miles' story so far is crazy
A very unique one too
A very unique one too
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Man's year one was a multiversal threat, some Spideys don't even get to deal with a multiversal threat
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Consistent 8-C
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Would anyone scale to this aside from RIPeter? I know this feat is the currently justification for most of the Spider-Verse characters' LS, but I don't remember whether anyone directly scales to him
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Iirc Kingpin overpowered him and held him up against a wall in a flashback, so ig him and probably other characters by downscaling
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Peter directly scales to him, and, by consequence, everyone else
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Yeah, he temporarily restrained him, so I guess he probably scales. But in terms of LS, didn't Kingpin completely overpower other characters like Miles, so I'm not sure if they should scale aside from AP
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For the collider explosion, RIPeter should scale directly since he survived it even after a fight with Goblin that went on for who knows how long, throwing hands with and getting smacked into the big gear by Prowler twice and outright saying he's tired, and was damaged by being held in the center of the collider beams for a prolonged period of time
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Barely get city level threats with prep time
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The Spider-Gang can break out of her arms so they scale
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Ah, I forgot about that. Cool
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The Spot (Spider-Verse)
The Spot is the primary antagonist in Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse. He was originally a scientist working on Kingpin's super collider, but when Spider-Man blew it up while he was still inside, the combination of that and the encased substance he was holding changed and mutated his body...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Miguel, Jessica, and Ben enter the same portal, but Miguel exits through a different one, having used an arm-blade to cut open his own
If this is legitimate, is it simply spatial manipulation or space-time manipulation for crossing separate universes?
If this is legitimate, is it simply spatial manipulation or space-time manipulation for crossing separate universes?
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They all leave through different portals. Ben and Jess exit through separate ones
Lacku
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His career as a Spider-Person is humbling Beenox TASM Peters
Lacku
He/Him- 3,226
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O btw @Aguywhodoesthings did you ever get around to calculating the portion of the collider explosion Kingpin survived?
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I calced it but the result was smaller than even the yield everyone scales to now so i just didn't bother with publishing it
Lacku
He/Him- 3,226
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That’s a shame but we already have some really good calcs for upgrades anyways. Should we get around to making a CRT to apply all this or is there anything else that needs calced before we do?
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The Collider calc didn't get evaluated yet so i think we should wait for that
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Would the Prowler? Since in that same scene he was wrestling and getting him into chokeholds in that fight.
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Man every few posts we get another character who would scale to RIPeter and i find that damn funny for some reason
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