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Speed Equalization Standards

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I dunno if this is the right place to bring this up, and it may sound a little stupid at first but hear me out.
I was gonna make a thread for this in the future and it somewhat relates to this...

I was thinking that Equalizing Speed in a matchup is fine and all, but in almost all cases, it renders speed useless in a battle, to the point where it isn't even considered. So I was thinking about a way to get around this but keep matchups fair, and add a little more to potential battles.

What I came up with was almost Equalising speed.
In the case that if Character A is faster than Character B, then in a matchup they would still be faster, but just not to the point of a blitz like is the case in most battles. This would keep Speed relevant in a fight, and would also give more reason to make battles and such. Instead of assuming characters are the exact same speed for a fight, actually give a reason for a speed rating in the first place.

Now this obviously wouldn't replace equalising speed, it'd simply be another alternative to battles that the wiki would allow for actual battles. So any equalised speed battles would obviously be able to stay, and completely equalising speed would still be fine.

Just a thought tho. Thought I'd bring it up. Might sound super stupid but hey it's worth a go...
 
I do like that idea, but I don't think it's doable in a concise and non-messy manner. But I do really like it.
 
Yeah, the idea would likely have to be expanded on slightly, such as standards on how to use it or such.
It wouldn't be much different to just full equalisation usage-wise. But I do believe having some standards to describe how to use it would help hugely on keeping it tidy and fair.
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
Has the debate of Immeasurable speed > Passives been resolved? Because if lets say speed is equalized Character Y has Immeasurable speed, and then Character X is only Sub-Rel at his best. If both characters are equalized to immeasurable. would passives just stop working?


Idk if there is a rule about where the equalized speed goes to either, or at least i didn't see one. Does it go to the slower character so both characters are now Sub-Rel, or does it go to the faster character?

The four questions i have here with speed equalized


  1. Does immeasurable speed make it where you are so fast you are unaffected by passive hax?

  2. If speed equalized goes to the slower character. Does that mean passive hax can work on the immeasurable speed guy?

  3. If speed equalized goes the immeasurable speed guy. Does that mean passives are useless as both will be too fast for passive hax to work? What about the sub-rel character who has no feats of his hax affecting immeasurable speed characters?

This is something i just now thought of with speed equalized.

Edit: Going along with what your saying if you get what i mean by this statement.
Click to expand...
I still have some concerns here with speed equalization...
 
AogiriKira said:
Checklist of Things to Consider:
  • Does attack speed get equalized, does it stay the same as it was before the equalization, or is it just relative? Both in the sense of attacks that are being physically created by a characters and others done by external means such as a gun.
  • Do methods of amplificating movement speed get equalized? I mean stuff such as flight speed for some characters.
  • Who does speed get equalized to, the faster or slower character?
  • Does reaction speed get equalized, stay the same or become relative to the character's new speed?
    • Can increasing reaction times to the point of permanently viewing the world in slow motion count as a speed blitz, and be subjected to the same rules as speed amping for the slower character?
    • If we decide that it is equalized, are characters still able to replicate speed-related feats they've shown, such as dodging bullets?
      • If we decide that yes, they'll be able to replicate those feats, what about a case where Character X, who's MHS, has dodged bullets, but Character Y, who's currently fighting him, is MFTL+, but from a cartoony, kids' series (so no guns)? Is Y unable to dodge bullets but X can, despite Y being far faster?
Click to expand...
I’ve looked into speed equal standards for quite a while and this is my input: Currently attack speed is completely equalized. I can see arguments for it being relative however.

Regular speed amps are allowed, flight speed is also equalized, however I can also see arguments for it being relative.

Slower, this seemed to have been previously agreed upon, note that characters who can run on the side of buildings can still do so even when regular human speed and that Wally West can still relativistic mass punch when speed equalized against a supersonic character, despite the obvious contradictions that come with this (I even had a fix for this about slowing down time for certain characters rather than giving them less speed, this obviously doesn’t work for infinite and immeasurable characters though).

Reaction speed is completely equalized.

Reaction speed amping shouldn’t count as a speed-blitz since you aren’t the one using the ability offensively (most of the time).

a supersonic character equalized to a normal human can only dodge the bullets of the person he’s fighting, not of random people. Having shown specific “feats” of dodging bullets is irrelevant since you could end up with lightning dodgers being unable to dodge the bullets of his opponent.

Also another issue I have is what to do with gadgets of someone that are specifically faster than themselves and are even need their relative speed difference to function properly. An extreme example is Rick Sanchez pushing a button on a device to instantly eliminate someone but it takes several seconds to take effect because the electrical impulses of the button are speed equalized.
 
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Greenshifter said:
Regular speed amps are allowed, flight speed is also equalized, however I can also see arguments for it being relative.
Click to expand...
Speed amps are allowed as long as the naturally slower character doesn't amp themself to blitz the naturally faster character. The naturally faster character can amp themself as much as they want.

That's all I wanted to correct there.
 
Also, another weird thing is, if a slower character's amp would blitz, are they allowed to use it after the faster character amps?

Say X is slower than Y. X has a 7x speed amp, while Y has a 3x speed amp. Isn't it a bit silly that Y using his speed amp is X's best win condition? At this point we're not talking about which character is stronger, but how their powersets interact with this very specific and arbitrary set of rules we've prepared for them.
 
Also also also, another thing that needs to be defined I think, can amps that affect all stats still be used? Say X's amp multiplies all his stats by 20, speed included, is he allowed to use that at all (though without any speed increase, of course)?
 
IIRC speed amps are always allowed, the match just won't be added if the slower character won because of it. Could be wrong tho.
 
Speed amps are only allowed for the naturally faster character. IIRC it was because it would be outright dishonest to say a Subsonic character beat an FTL one via a speed amp she'd never be able to use in an actual condition-less fight.
 
Speed amps are allowed for the slower character, but they cannot lead to a blitz. Which is why I made my example, if Y doesn't amp, X's speed boost would be a speed blitz, but if Y does, then X is free to use his and win.
 
Both can use speed amps, and the slower can make themselves faster than their opponent, but they can't make themselves fast enough to blitz.
 
Yes, which is why I pointed out the possibility of that situation. You understand that a character losing because they have access to a speed amp is a bit silly, right?
 
What are the conclusions so far here?
 
None really, we've only looked at some issues to consider.
Please tag some staff members so we're able to continue further and to provide a proper answer to each issue in the OP.
 
Which ones would be appropriate to tag?
 
I'm personally not interested all that much anymore, and I recall that there where proposals that it would simply equalize combat speed and other speeds simply get altered whether raised or lowered to the gaps are the same based on AssaltWaffle's proposal. But I think that causes it to be left to more complications and it was easier to just say speed equalization is speed equalized and call it a day. Exception is characters with speed amps whether via reactive power level or other speed enhancing power ups; which I agree those are legit abilities.
 
This has been discussed so many times now, also not interested in this either.

Imo everything gets equalized in a speed equalized match, and amps are allowed.

Anything else is just complicating things, point is just to forget about speed, so the fights can happen.
 
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No offense, but when I equalize speed between a peak human gunman and a subsonic gunman, I want them to have a gunfight in equal terms, I don't want all firearms they have to become completely worthless
 
Imo we do one of two things.
  • Everything is equalized
  • Proportional equalization
Everything being equalized means everything is equalized. Thrown attacks have the same speed as other attacks, same with ranged stuff.

Proportional equalization meaning that attacks are equalized in proportion to the set speed. A 2x amp is still a 2x amp, and guns are still faster than the shooter.

As for where to equalize, personally I'm more in favor of lowering it till they match, rather than raising it.
 
KieranH10 said:
I dunno if this is the right place to bring this up, and it may sound a little stupid at first but hear me out.
I was gonna make a thread for this in the future and it somewhat relates to this...

I was thinking that Equalizing Speed in a matchup is fine and all, but in almost all cases, it renders speed useless in a battle, to the point where it isn't even considered. So I was thinking about a way to get around this but keep matchups fair, and add a little more to potential battles.

What I came up with was almost Equalising speed.
In the case that if Character A is faster than Character B, then in a matchup they would still be faster, but just not to the point of a blitz like is the case in most battles. This would keep Speed relevant in a fight, and would also give more reason to make battles and such. Instead of assuming characters are the exact same speed for a fight, actually give a reason for a speed rating in the first place.

Now this obviously wouldn't replace equalising speed, it'd simply be another alternative to battles that the wiki would allow for actual battles. So any equalised speed battles would obviously be able to stay, and completely equalising speed would still be fine.

Just a thought tho. Thought I'd bring it up. Might sound super stupid but hey it's worth a go...
Click to expand...
Dunno if this should be left for another thread but what are everyone elses opinions on this?

I agree with Qawsed too. We should have something in regard for firearms and such.
 
I would go for proportional, since equalizing everything means that a character who's normally MHS+, yet has a SOL attack, now moves as fast, can react to, and attack that fast with everything they have. It's just illogical and it actually seriously hinders characters who have some moves that are massively faster than their normal selves.
 
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It also makes techniques that rely on speed (not speed amps, something like spinning really fast) completely useless
 
No offense but what would a rule do to address the actual problem, which is the fact that our current standards are very ambiguous and unclear?
 
I do not think that we are capable of making them extremely case-by-case specific, as we have tried to figure out such standards several times in the past via far more elaborate discussions than this one, if I recall correctly.
 
If you allow me, I can write few considerations when speed is equalized:

*Speed equalization "drags" the faster combat speed character down to the slower one in their most proficient form of combat, so both have 50% chances of hitting each other.
**The chances of hitting each other may changed based in unbalanced dexterity and agility, as well as powers like Accrobatics.
*Speed amps and danps keeps their multiplier.
*Different attacks speeds keeps their speed as long its speed is independent of combat and reaction speed of the character (its the case with most firearms and mundane ranged weapons).
*The "initiative" (the character that tends to attack first) have it the one that perform less complicated actions (thought based actions are less complicated than swinging a sword, and swinging a sword is less complicated than tensing a bow, even if both characters are equally fast).
*Relatively smaller characters are more difficult to strike, and bigger ones more easier to hit, independently of speed.
*AoE attacks can't be dodged through combat speed (although may be blocked if the character has the ability to do so), no matter the speed difference; its reduced to what its the maximum distance that the defender can cover in one movement and the range of the AoE attack (although, I'm aware that this is not something that profiles lists).
 
Antvasima said:
I do not think that we are capable of making them extremely case-by-case specific, as we have tried to figure out such standards several times in the past via far more elaborate discussions than this one, if I recall correctly.
Click to expand...
With all respect, with Speed Equalization being used in the great majority of VS Matches, isn't it a bit too important to leave it to random users to figure out? Even then, saying they are allowed to dictate its specifics is better than what we have now imo.
 
I am just saying that we have tried in the past, and the Versus Thread Rules and Standard Battle Assumptions as they currently are were the result.

However, if knowledgeable members are willing to try to figure out improved systems, that is obviously fine. Antoniofer seems to have some good ideas above.
 
I am kind of fine with the current rule on speed amplification:
Match-ups with equalized statistics (with the exception of speed) are not allowed, as they turn the entire tiering system unnecessary.
  • During a match where speed is equalized, speed amplification techniques are allowed, unless they lead to a victory via Speed Blitz in favor of the slower character.
Proportional equalization meaning that attacks are equalized in proportion to the set speed. A 2x amp is still a 2x amp, and guns are still faster than the shooter.
I feel like we need better clarifications on the weapon speed being equalized; many something like Antoniofer mentioned on the matter could work.
 
I would suggest adding some part about characters who have attacks faster than themselves still being "fast" in a speed equalized fight. If an example is needed, Boboiboy is MHS+ overall normally, and has a single SOL attack. If this part isn't added, then that attack would be pointless, since it's speed would be equal to all other attacks.
 
Also, another thing that needs to be considered is, what about techniques that give a short speed boost, but aren't amps? For example, a character of mine can go faster by sliding on his back and using several small rockets in his armor to push himself way faster than he can run. It's not a speed amp, it doesn't make anything else he does any faster, but in speed equalized matches, would this only go as fast as his running speed?
 
My proposition is that characters are equalized to combat speed of their respective most proficient form of combat; for example, if character X is A fast while using a spear, but A-B while using any other form of combat like other weapon, unarmed combat or magic, then when equalized against character Y that is way faster, then Y's speed is reduced to A, not A-B.

Character can use any situational advantage to increase its speed, like using gravity at its favor, sliding through ice, using weapons like rockets, etc; these cases do not alter one's combat speed (if any if alter the speed of one attack).
 
Yeah that was my intention with point two. A person with a sword or spear should attack faster than someone unarmed in my view. It shouldn't be a flat equalization since it basically makes all non-AoE irrelevant.
 
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