Soul Manipulation and The Real World

[Wokistan]

This is sorta already the case though yobo. I can fish up the thread, but it was decided that there needs to be something that can be construed as equivalent to equalize.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Powers that only work on people who possess a certain sort of power really should not be being equalized to people without some sort of equivalent, imo. Not working on people without that power is an explicit weakness, and we shouldn't just remove that for the sake of equalization.

I wouldn't say you can magic drain someone who doesn't use magic, for example.

That's because magic is something that exists only within certain people in most verses. If a verse treats magic as something innate to all things, then by verse equal it would work.

 

[Agnaa]

Powers that only work on people who possess a certain sort of power really should not be being equalized to people without some sort of equivalent, imo. Not working on people without that power is an explicit weakness, and we shouldn't just remove that for the sake of equalization.

I wouldn't say you can magic drain someone who doesn't use magic, for example.

Are you fine with plot manip, concept manip, and mystic eyes of death perception working on real world characters or not?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

This is sorta already the case though yobo. I can fish up the thread, but it was decided that there needs to be something that can be construed as equivalent to equalize.

I mean, if we want to remove all verse equalization, at that point there wouldn't be anything you could equalize it to. That's a whole other issue entirely.

 

[Wokistan]

I have updated the OP with the equalization thread.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

They're not immune to a fireball in the face.

And why is that? They don't necessarily adhere to those same rules used to damage others in fiction, there's no proof.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Are you fine with plot manip, concept manip, and mystic eyes of death perception working on real world characters or not?

Of course they work. You waking up and going to the bathroom is a plot that can get manipulated. Concepts exist. I don't know what the eyes are.

 

[Sera_EX]

We also really need to stop comparing real life to fiction. Fiction is based on reality, not the other way around. You can't verse equalize the real world to any fictional verse.

I'm sorry but I find it ridiculous people keep saying "if we do this for real world we have to do this for these fictional verses". We most certainly do not.

 

[Wokistan]

Plot and concept stuff is solved by the issue of a neutral universe. Plot and concepts aren't things intrinsic to a person.

I don't know how mystic eyes works, so I can't really say. Is that the death manip one?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

We also really need to stop comparing real life to fiction. Fiction is based on reality, not the other way around. You can't verse equalize the real world to any fictional verse.

I'm sorry but I find it ridiculous people keep saying "if we do this for real world we have to do this for these fictional verses". We most certainly do not.

>Fiction is based on reality

>We can do one without the other

Those are mutually exclusive Sera. If these standards applied to the real world it would be a double standard to not apply them to fiction, as fiction is based on the real world.

 

[Agnaa]

Of course they work. You waking up and going to the bathroom is a plot that can get manipulated. Concepts exist. I don't know what the eyes are.

That's not a plot, real life has no story. You cannot prove that real life has a story.

Concepts don't exist. You cannot prove that real life has concepts.

Ryougi Shiki

Conceptual Manipulation and Death Manipulation via her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception (Shiki can cut down anything regardless of its durability by tracing its Lines of Death with an edged weapon, even slicing apart concepts and abstract abilities like Fujino Asagami's telekinesis)

The real world does not have Lines of Death.

 

[Wokistan]

And why is that? They don't necessarily adhere to those same rules used to damage others in fiction, there's no proof.

There is proof though. The fireball has an effect on its environment or others that we can calculate as an energy output. We already know that the human body reacts in ways to different amounts of energy.

Unless magic in this verse only works on magic users, fire's gonna hurt no matter what the cause. The mechanic here isn't as important as what actually happened.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Plot and concept stuff is solved by the issue of a neutral universe. Plot and concepts aren't things intrinsic to a person.

I don't know how mystic eyes works, so I can't really say. Is that the death manip one?

Actually, there are a few verses where manipulation of the concept of a person is the only thing that's prevalent, so they are, in fact, intrinsic to a person.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I actually think "if we do this for real world we have to do this for these fictional verses" makes perfect sense, unless there is a reason not to (like the calc stacking or outlier examples, I agree with those), but I really don't see why verse equalization should be affected.

 

[Agnaa]

Plot and concept stuff is solved by the issue of a neutral universe. Plot and concepts aren't things intrinsic to a person.

I don't know how mystic eyes works, so I can't really say. Is that the death manip one?

Plots can be intrinsic to people, with Monika using plot manip to alter specific people's game files, and SCP-3043 rewriting the stories inside people's heads.

Concept manip can be intrinsic to people, Kakegae Yuzuriha replaces the concept of "oneself" with the concept of another person to copy their abilities.

It's the death manip one, I posted a quote of it just above.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

There is proof though. The fireball has an effect on its environment or others that we can calculate as an energy output. We already know that the human body reacts in ways to different amounts of energy.

Unless magic in this verse only works on magic users, fire's gonna hurt no matter what the cause. The mechanic here isn't as important as what actually happened.

Yeah, but there isn't "proof" that it's affetcing everyone exactly the same way as in the real world. Heck, most fiction acts as if real world logic doesn't apply. All I'm saying is it's a very slippery slope to put this in because of how "the real world proof looks."

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I actually think "if we do this for real world we have to do this for these fictional verses" makes perfect sense, unless there is a reason not to (like the calc stacking or outlier examples, I agree with those), but I really don't see why verse equalization should be affected.

Yes, as fiction is based upon the real world.

 

[Wokistan]

Concepts are covered by their definition as ideas anyways. Ideas definitely exist (as far as we can say anything truly exists), so destruction of an idea should be possible enough.

Mokina is super weird in general. Give me a bit to think of that.

Personally wouldn't.

 

[Ogbunabali]

A plot is literally you going to the bathroom, that can be manipulated.


So you're saying definitions don't exist, nice. I guess bottles don't exist, or chairs, or literally anything.

 

[Wokistan]

Lets calm it down here. No need to accuse people of being willfully ignorant.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Concepts are covered by their definition as ideas anyways. Ideas definitely exist (as far as we can say anything truly exists), so destruction of an idea should be possible enough.

Mokina is super weird in general. Give me a bit to think of that.

Personally wouldn't.

Except often times those ideas go beyond that, and don't necessarily tie into what a neutral universe would cover.

Though what exactly constitutes a neutral univers should be discussed.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I didn't mean to be aggressive, I'll remove it.

 

[Sera_EX]

Double standard? It's the real world. It's existence here was supposed to be primarily for reference anyway. No wonder people were against having these profiles back then. People start asking for us to change standards because of vs matches. Again.

There is no soul in the real world. This is coming from someone who believes in the soul.

For all we know, the soul might not even be comparable to most fictional verses, therefore we can't equalize them.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

A plot is literally you going to the bathroom, that can be manipulated.


So you're saying definitions don't exist, nice. I guess bottles don't exist, or chairs, or literally anything.

Yes, and these plots can often be intrinsic to a person as well. Your point?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

@Wok It's death manipulation/concept manipulation sort of thing.

Basically you see lines, you cut lines, if you manage to cut it fully you instantly actualize the inevitable end or "Death" of what you've just cut around the area that was cut. Like an expiration date that says 'expirates in 60 days', but you make it so it fully expires in the cut area when you are finished cutting.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

No getting heated people, please, or else the thread will just be closed and this won't ever be solved.

 

[Agnaa]

A plot is literally you going to the bathroom, that can be manipulated.

So you're saying definitions don't exist, nice. I guess bottles don't exist, or chairs, or literally anything.

How is that a plot? You can't prove that there's a plot for reality there.

Yeah, definitions don't exist. There is no objective definition of a bottle. This is a part of real life philosophy.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Double standard? It's the real world. It's existence here was supposed to be primarily for reference anyway. No wonder people were against having these profiles back then. People start asking for us to change standards because of vs matches. Again.

There is no soul in the real world. This is coming from someone who believes in the soul.

For all we know, the soul might not even be comparable to most fictional verses, therefore we can't equalize them.

Exactly. If it's for reference, it's because standards regarding it apply to all verses.

 

[Ogbunabali]

How is that a plot? You can't prove that there's a plot for reality there.

Yeah, definitions don't exist. There is no objective definition of a bottle. This is a part of real life philosophy.

The act of you living your life is a plot in and of itself that can be equalized and thus, manipulated.

That's what concepts are. Saying concepts don't exist is like saying literally nothing exists.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

For all we know, the soul might not even be comparable to most fictional verses, therefore we can't equalize them.

By the way, I would like to say that you guys decide to do like he is saying here and not use the "everything has a soul unless proven otherwise", then I will be perfectly fine with real life no having souls, since I'm just asking for consistency.

 

[Wokistan]

A concept of self is an idea beyond just "abstract things defining all of reality", note its usage in psychological terms. That sort of thing should be able to be swapped out.

As for the eyes of death thing, if they're a construct intrinsic to the victim I wouldn't think so.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Ogbundabali

No, it's saying that what a "bottle" is is arbitrary. In reality it's a set number of atoms arranged in a set array within space. We, as humans, categorize it as a bottle because it resembles the general function of form of a bottle. There is no objective definition for a bottle.

Also no, philosophically speaking concepts don't have to exist for things to exist. I can direct you to some reading on the subject if you'd like.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Magic in WoW doesn't work like magic in Marvel, no verse equalizion. I guess even fodder shinigami no diff TOAA since he doesn't have Reiatsu.

I say the opposite of no verse equalization.

WoW magic would work like WoW magic and Marvel magic would work like Marvel magic, including that things like anti-magic techniques work as counter against magic techniques Likwise weaknesses of certain magic techniques stay being a weakness of said magic technique, even in relation to the other systems magic.

Everything is assumed to have the same effect as it would have when the technique is used on a person from the verse they themself are in, including soul hax having an effect of people. That is, until definitely proven otherwise.

 

[Wokistan]

By the way, I would like to say that you guys decide to do like he is saying here and not use the "everything has a soul unless proven otherwise", then I will be perfectly fine with real life no having souls, since I'm just asking for consistency.

I mean I am okay with this. The rest of the wiki is not lol

 

[The_Impress]

Aren't the profiles we use for the Real World characters fictional anyways?

I mean, we aren't basing off the cat profile to a specific cat, nor is Composite Human a real thing, so in context of this wiki the Real World is a fictional setting as well, and thus should follow the rules of verse equalization like any other verse on the wiki.

 

[Wokistan]

ITT:

Everyone agrees except for one stubborn guy who refuses to admit defeat and continues laying out the same lame, ineffective arguement.

Hey, no need for that. it's three stubborn people

Seriously though, this just isn't constructive.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

ITT:

Everyone agrees except for one stubborn guy who refuses to admit defeat and continues laying out the same lame, ineffective arguement.

There are multiple people arguing on both sides. What are you on about?

 

[Agnaa]

The act of you living your life is a plot in and of itself that can be equalized and thus, manipulated.

That's what concepts are. Saying concepts don't exist is like saying literally nothing exists.

How is that a plot in and of itself? You're not proving that a plot exists, you're just asserting that it has to exist. I could say that the act of you living your life proves that you have a soul that could thus be manipulated.

What do you mean that's what concepts are? Also, some branches of philosophy would argue that literally nothing exists.

 

[Sera_EX]

I see no reason to assume souls exist in the real wold, especially for the purpose of vs debate.

 

[Wokistan]

Aren't the profiles we use for the Real World characters fictional anyways?

I mean, we aren't basing off the cat profile to a specific cat, nor is Composite Human a real thing, so in context of this wiki the Real World is a fictional setting as well, and thus should follow the rules of verse equalization like any other verse on the wiki.

Matches have been made for things like the M1 Abrams, which is piloted by a crew of people. These are real tanks, and real people drive them around.