Soul Manipulation and The Real World

[Assaltwaffle]

@Wokistan

Yes, souls are, but what they specifically are and what they entail is very different in various theologies.

As for philosophy, no. Many philosophical frameworks are not dualistic.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Not the same ones.

BTW, if we start doing shenanigans like this, Flash (Wally West) (Post-Crisis) can't use any of his powers because "the scientific forces he uses in his powers don't actually exist in the real world"

Again verse equalization.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If one character has soulhax and the other character's verse hasn't touched the topic of souls, the verse with the soulhax should determine what does and does not have souls in this context.

I am actually all up for doing it like this.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

@Ogbunabali

If verse equalization works for those, why wouldn't it work for soul manipulation?

Anyway, disagree FRA.

 

[Wokistan]

Souls being extremely different and varied is another issue that would make it safer and less assumptive to just say due to inconclusive evidence they shouldn't really be assumed.

Characters still take the reasons for their powers with them. 40k psykers can still draw on the warp, for instance. A soul isn't some underlying force that defines all of reality (usually), so it's not really the same case.

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

This thread is rather pointless. It is like asking if Naruto characters should be able to use illusions or chakra at all if they were to suddenly come barging into a setting that is IRL. I think the answer should be pretty evident.

 

[Ogbunabali]

If one character has soulhax and the other character's verse hasn't touched the topic of souls, the verse with the soulhax should determine what does and does not have souls in this context.

That's literally headcanon. You're assuming something exists without any proof that it does. You're not even equalizing it with something, you're just imposing it.

 

[Ogbunabali]

@Ogbunabali
If verse equalization works for those, why wouldn't it work for soul manipulation?

Anyway, disagree FRA.

Because you're not equalizing it with literally anything, you're imposing it.

 

[Wokistan]

Thing is, the chakra thng was actually determined that there needs to be something equivalent to equalize in the first place.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That's literally headcanon. You're assuming something exists without any proof that it does. You're not even equalizing it with something, you're just imposing it.

That's literally Verse Equal

 

[Ogbunabali]

That's literally Verse Equal

Ok, what are you equalizing it with?

 

[Agnaa]

Equalizing plot with causality/probability is very fine. They are way to similar in that regard, they are basically sub power.

Again that's where verse equalization kicks in. Concepts exist in the real world, so we equalize them with Platonic ones with another verse.

They're similar in their results, but they're very different in their mechanics, and the mechanic is the important thing for this thread.

People can use soul manipulation to kill someone's soul, so should it just be equalized to death manipulation and therefore be able to be used on real world characters?

Platonic concepts don't exist in the real world, so why are they equalized? Platonic concepts are very different from lesser realist concepts.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Orgbunabali

The Kenshiro argument from DT is actually a really good one that I think you glossed right now. While we do have pressure points, we absolutely do not have pressure points in the way Kenshiro displays them. He couldn't make normal people explode, no matter how many pressure points he hit. It's an impossible power based off of something that is absolutely not in real life, and yet we equalize it and give him that power.

We give him a power that has evidence to the contrary of its possibility, yet we're questioning whether or not we default to something that just doesn't have evidence for or against it. If we give concept manipulators their power or Kenshiro his, the soul manipulators should get it unless the verse indicates they don't have them, just like how unless a verse indicates that their physiology is different/pressure points don't work then Kenshiro should have his.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

On the topic of two verses that have touched on the topic of souls:

Neither side would take precedence, so if one verse explained that plants have souls and the other claimed they don't the plants from the second verse would lack them for the purposes of a battle, however plants from the first verse would have them.

 

[Agnaa]

Thing is, the chakra thng was actually determined that there needs to be something equivalent to equalize in the first place.

Isn't that only because normal humans don't have a noteworthy amount of chakra?

Like the last time we discussed this, why is Monika assumed to have her abilities on characters that don't have a literal game file to equalize to?

 

[Ogbunabali]

They're similar in their results, but they're very different in their mechanics, and the mechanic is the important thing for this thread.

People can use soul manipulation to kill someone's soul, so should it just be equalized to death manipulation and therefore be able to be used on real world characters?

Platonic concepts don't exist in the real world, so why are they equalized? Platonic concepts are very different from lesser realist concepts.

Soul hax != death hax.

But concepts do, and you equalizing them with Platonic Concepts. With souls you're imposing them.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I still think the same I said previously; ignoring things like outliers or calc stacking makes sense, because the mere fact it is real life makes the two impossible to occur, however, verse equalization is complately different from the two, and the fact that we're talking about reality really doesn't change anything about the equalization, since unlike outliers or calc stacking, verse equalization doesn't need to be fictional in order to happen, so not using it in real life would just be making an exception for no reason, and exceptions for no reason is something I've always been against.

If we use the "they have souls unless stated otherwise" standard for fiction, there is not reason not to use it for reality, since the fact that it is real life doesn't affect this standard.

 

[Wokistan]

On the topic of two verses that have touched on the topic of souls:

Neither side would take precedence, so if one verse explained that plants have souls and the other claimed they don't the plants from the second verse would lack them for the purposes of a battle, however plants from the first verse would have them.

This makes sense to me on the fictional side of things. If you guys agree to verse equalizing in fiction I can just drop that issue, since I don't feel super strongly about that.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Anyway, I'll just point out that if we do this, we'll have to assume any verse where such things go unmentioned are immune to:

• Past changes, as there's no proof time travel change s the past in the same method most places assume it does

• Chakra powers, because there's no proof of them

• Interdimensional shenanigans, since there's no absolute concrete proof of a multiverse in the sense fiction uses

• Ki manipulating powers, as there's nor proof of ki

• Type 1 concept manipulation, because there is no proof of platonic forms

Among many, many, other things.

 

[Antoniofer]

I'm of the ones that believe in one's spirit, if the character is sentient, has consciousness, emotions and principles (or is part of the race that have that), even if soul and spiritism haven't been brought up, it will be considered to have a soul.

Soul is the spirit of the livings (with the other characteristic mentioned above), but it do not necessary have to be a mortal, it can be like "spirit of the fores" or such, although it can also be considered life-force. Anyone that can "proyect" themself in an astral plane can also be considered to have a soul.

Note that the verse can also give an explaination of how s soulless being can cover all of the above, but those are not standard situations.

 

[Agnaa]

Soul hax != death hax.

But concepts do, and you equalizing them with Platonic Concepts. With souls you're imposing them.

Soul hax can be used for death hax.

Plot hax != causality/probability hax (as you claimed), but they can have similar applications, which is why you said to equalize them. Why can't the same be done for soul hax used to kill people?

Concepts do exist, but lesser realist concepts cannot be manipulated to affect the real world, aristotlean and platonic ones can. This is a huge difference.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Ok, what are you equalizing it with?

If you wanna get down to it then the soul can be considered a part of the mind of a person and there are some points of evidence to this but thats besides the point

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

On the topic of two verses that have touched on the topic of souls:

Neither side would take precedence, so if one verse explained that plants have souls and the other claimed they don't the plants from the second verse would lack them for the purposes of a battle, however plants from the first verse would have them.

Agreed.

 

[Ogbunabali]

@Orgbunabali
snip

Yes we don't have pressure points that go boom. But we do have pressure points, which we equalize. That's how verse equalization works. No two magic principles in verse are the same, yet we equalize them.

You're not equalizing soul with anything.

 

[Wokistan]

With reality, I honestly wouldn't want to equalize stuff like the pressure points. Giving them to humanoids in other verses is fine though, I've largely dropped that.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yes we don't have pressure points that go boom. But we do have pressure points, which we equalize. That's how verse equalization works. No two magic principles in verse are the same, yet we equalize them.

You're not equalizing soul with anything.

Those two things are very different. By that standard, equalizing soul and mind or emotions is a easy leap.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Acupunctures exist in the real world, we equalize them.

Not any acupuncture points that do anything remotely like that, though.

And the list isn't just that either. Life force, Chakra, Ki, the lines that Mystic Eyes Of Death Perception see, non-corporeal consciousness that various mindhax operates on or any other fictional invention that is used by some ability to get an effect are the exact same case.

Techniques should be assumed to work in the way they work in the verse the character comes from, unless there is some good reason why that can't be the case. We want to have battles between characters as we know them and as such the techniques they use should have the effect we know them to have.

 

[Agnaa]

Yes we don't have pressure points that go boom. But we do have pressure points, which we equalize. That's how verse equalization works. No two magic principles in verse are the same, yet we equalize them.

You're not equalizing soul with anything.

So real world characters are immune to magic, since there's no magic in real life?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

If things go unmentioned, the verse/setting that confirms them should take precedence. Example, verse A says everything from humans, stars and dirt have souls, verse B doesn't deny nor confirm things having souls, thus verse A takes precedence as nothing is contradicted.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Soul hax can be used for death hax.

Plot hax != causality/probability hax (as you claimed), but they can have similar applications, which is why you said to equalize them. Why can't the same be done for soul hax used to kill people?

Concepts do exist, but lesser realist concepts cannot be manipulated to affect the real world, aristotlean and platonic ones can. This is a huge difference.

Soul hax still isn't death hax.

It is changing the past/future.

You equalize them.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I believe that things like Sailor Moons's Star Seed powers would also be ignored by anyone outside of the Verse by this logic.

It's poor, poor, logic.

 

[Wokistan]

Anyway, I'll just point out that if we do this, we'll have to assume any verse where such things go unmentioned are immune to:

• Time travel rules aren't even consistent in fiction, but going by how we have defined casuality this would be forced to be the case. Due to not being consistent within fiction it goes by the time travelers rules iirc, so dragon ball can't paradox for example.
• I am fine with not equalizing this
• Characters can just overkill the universe, and battles already take place in neutrality
• Again, this is fine
• Covered by the whole neutral universe deal (also these are 1-As anyways why are you matching them against IRL)

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Yobo & Agnaa

There is no proof of any abstract universal, period. Lesser realist is a bucket term I made to address the other realist abstracts that would otherwise be non-qualifying; if you look up "lesser realist" you probably won't find anything in philosophy quoting that term.

As for the existence of any conceptual framework, there are philosophers that outright say such a framework doesn't exist, and there is zero hard evidence for any such framework. It's just philosophy and where people end up using logical to get to. Saying "concepts objectively exist" and especially "abstract universals objectively exist" is just wrong.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Soul hax still isn't death hax.

It is changing the past/future.

You equalize them.

And Souls can be equalized to any of Number of things, even if we were to assume these incorrect standards.

 

[Sera_EX]

No. What's canonical in the real world for our purposes should be what's scientifically proven and/or unchallenged and nothing more, especially not for the sake of a vs match.

There's no (scientific) evidence supporting the existence of the soul.

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

Magic in WoW doesn't work like magic in Marvel, no verse equalizion. I guess even fodder shinigami no diff TOAA since he doesn't have Reiatsu.

 

[Wokistan]

Powers that only work on people who possess a certain sort of power really should not be being equalized to people without some sort of equivalent, imo. Not working on people without that power is an explicit weakness, and we shouldn't just remove that for the sake of equalization.

I wouldn't say you can magic drain someone who doesn't use magic, for example.

 

[Agnaa]

Soul hax still isn't death hax.

It is changing the past/future.

You equalize them.

If plot manip is causality/probability hax because it changes the past/future, soul hax that kills is death hax because it kills. The two positions you're preaching inherently contradict each other.

Why should you equalize different types of concepts when they function so completely differently that they're effectively different things?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Wokistan

I mean, we may as well just get rid of Verse equal at that point.

And this wouldn't be just limited to the real world, but it would have to apply to all verses where it goes unmentioned.

 

[Ogbunabali]

So real world characters are immune to magic, since there's no magic in real life?

They're not immune to a fireball in the face.