Sonic The Hedgehog vs Bugs Bunny (4-8-0)

[Spilxson2]

vs

Low 2-C Super Sonic vs High 3-A Bugs Bunny

Low 1-C Dimensional Manipulation is restricted

Speed is equalized

Standard win conditions.

To anyone who wants to know what's been discussed so far

Sonic's advantages:
Higher Attack Potency
Speed Amps
Invulnerability
Conceptual Manipulation
Resists Bugs non 5-D Plot Manipulation. I don't think Bugs immediately starts with Plot Manipulation anyway
Layered Time Stop which would get past Bugs' resistance to time stop

Bugs' advantages:
Social Influencing and Charisma. Is also much smarter than Sonic and a more tricky opponent overall
High Godly Regeneration and Power Mimicry
Can avoid Spin Dash spam by holding up a stop sign
Toon Force and Broadway Force
Supernatural Luck and Probability Manipulation
Power Nullification



Who wins?

Sonic: FireSwordHero, Theuser, GlaceonGamez, omegabronic

Bugs: koopa3144, noninho, CBslayeR, Tonygameman, Psychomaster35, Robo432343, Spilxson2, Fezzih007

Inconclusive:

 

[FaceOff81]

How restrictive is Bugs' Low 1-C Dimensional Manipulation?

 

[Spilxson2]

How restrictive is Bugs' Low 1-C Dimensional Manipulation?

His profile says he can cross over to a higher dimensional plane and control the story. In this fight, he has all of his abilities, but he's not allowed to cross over into the higher dimensional plane

 

[FaceOff81]

His profile says he can cross over to a higher dimensional plane and control the story. In this fight, he has all of his abilities, but he's not allowed to cross over into the higher dimensional plane

Oh I see. Base Sonic let alone Super Sonic not only has a great amount of resistances that would be able to contend with Bugs, but also he has a great load of statistical amplifications on top of that as well for both AP and Speed. Considering that Bugs' Dimensional Manipulation is restricted and him only being High 3-A in this fight compared to Super Sonic being Low 2-C, Super Sonic takes the win here. My vote goes out for Super Sonic.

 

[Spilxson2]

Oh. Apparently Modern Sonic can resist Plot Manipulation. So I'll just make it Low 2-C Modern Sonic and equalize speed

 

[FaceOff81]

S

Oh. Apparently Modern Sonic can resist Plot Manipulation. So I'll just make it Low 2-C Modern Sonic and equalize speed

I see. I believe Modern Sonic still wins due to statistical amplifications, greater haxes, and more abilities in general that would overwhelm Bugs.

 

[Spilxson2]

S

I see. I believe Modern Sonic still wins due to statistical amplifications, greater haxes, and more abilities in general that would overwhelm Bugs.

What about Bugs' Immortality?

 

[AStrangeverse]

isn't Bugs Plot Manip 5-D

 

[Spilxson2]

isn't Bugs Plot Manip 5-D

I thought it was only 5-D with Dimensional Manipulation. It's restricted here. His Plot Manipulation from Toon Physiology doesn't say anything about being 5-D

 

[AStrangeverse]

hm

 

[FaceOff81]

I thought it was only 5-D with Dimensional Manipulation. It's restricted here. His Plot Manipulation from Toon Physiology doesn't say anything about being 5-D

Dimensional Manipulation is how he manipulates the plot. Because that’s restricted, he can’t use it against Super Sonic.

 

[FaceOff81]

What about Bugs' Immortality?

Immortality isn’t listed under his profile.

 

[Omegabronic]

Immortality isn’t listed under his profile.

See toon physiology

 

[FaceOff81]

See toon physiology

Oh. Well, Sonic does have Immortality Negation in his Excalibur Form being able to negate forms 1 and 8. Unfortunately, we’re not using Excalibur Sonic. In this case, BFR with Magic Hands and/or Chaos Control should do just fine. Chaos Control also performs resistance negation so it should negate Bugs’ tricks as well.

One thing I will say is that without getting into his various resistances, Sonic himself does have Toon Force/Elasticity, Indomitable Will, Resistance Negation (up to Low-Godly), and Immortalities Type 2 and 4 at his disposal as well. Because of this, there isn’t too many things Bugs himself can do to Sonic

 

[Spilxson2]

Well I had the win condition as death because I didn't want it to end with Incapacitation. Maybe I could make it death or BFR

 

[Spilxson2]

People with Toon Physiology can teleport though. Don't know if BFR will keep Bugs away long enough for the match to be considered over

 

[Spilxson2]

This match is probably going to be hax based since Bugs (from what I know about tiers) can't damage Low 2-C Sonic and Sonic needs to try to get around Bugs' immortality. I don't really think that blitzing Bugs with speed amps would matter much due to Immortality either

 

[FaceOff81]

This match is probably going to be hax based since Bugs (from what I know about tiers) can't damage Low 2-C Sonic and Sonic needs to try to get around Bugs' immortality. I don't really think that blitzing Bugs with speed amps would matter much due to Immortality either

Sonic’s BFR is considered to be 2-A if not much higher with amps so he’d be able to affect a High 3-A Bugs Bunny with it even with toon physiology.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

By the by, Bugs resists Regeneration Negation. Trying to negate his regeneration won't work here. Bugs's Power Null/Modifcation also works on BFRing (also transmutation) so if he tries to BFR, it won't work.

 

[FaceOff81]

By the by, Bugs resists Regeneration Negation. Trying to negate his regeneration won't work here. Bugs's Power Null/Modifcation also works on BFRing (also transmutation) so if he tries to BFR, it won't work.

While I agree he does resist regeneration negation, he only did so on a High 3-A level. Even then, he still took some damage from the attack. The same goes for him using his Power Null/Modification.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

While I agree he does resist regeneration negation, he only did so on a High 3-A level. Even then, he still took some damage from the attack. The same goes for him using his Power Null/Modification.

I don't think that matters in terms of hax? If you're using this logic that only High 3-A hax can work on High 3-A characters, why put him up against a Low 2-C character? By your own logic, nothing works.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bugs's Power Null/Modifcation also works on BFRing (also transmutation) so if he tries to BFR

It works? In the description it seems to only work on equipment and machinery (which looks like technology manipulation rather than power nullification)

There is the "undo powers" part but no type of scan is linked. So I only see the cancellation working on equipment/machinery.

While I agree he does resist regeneration negation, he only did so on a High 3-A level. Even then, he still took some damage from the attack. The same goes for him using his Power Null/Modification.

That's not how hax works.

Bugs can regenerate from his destroyed body, soul and information, and can resist anyone denying it.

A level 2 AP will not kill Bugs.

 

[FaceOff81]

I don't think that matters in terms of hax? If you're using this logic that only High 3-A hax can work on High 3-A characters, why put him up against a Low 2-C character? By your own logic, nothing works.

It does matter otherwise we’d be stuck in NLF territory in this case. I mean, I’m not the one who put up those stipulations within the discussion forum here.I would say they work on High 3-A characters and below.

 

[FaceOff81]

It works? In the description it seems to only work on equipment and machinery (which looks like technology manipulation rather than power nullification)

There is the "undo powers" part but no type of scan is linked. So I only see the cancellation working on equipment/machinery.


That's not how hax works.

Bugs can regenerate from his destroyed body, soul and information, and can resist anyone denying it.

A level 2 AP will not kill Bugs.

Then what would exactly? Low 1-C and above? If you say anyone denying it, it comes across as a NLF.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Then what would exactly? Low 1-C and above?

I do not know that.

I know Low and Mid Godly can be bypassed depending on the destruction you do, like destroying a timeline. Or the whole reality, since I've seen some cases of crts about it and so on.

But I don't know if High-Godly comes to that.

For example, let's say a guy only has AP Low 1-C, I think the High-Godly guy can regenerate.

But what if the guy can destroy reality on a 5D level/range? I don't know.

The regeneration page doesn't talk about this. Would have to ask about it with some mod.

 

[Spilxson2]

I might vote Inconclusive

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I do not know that.

I know Low and Mid Godly can be bypassed depending on the destruction you do, like destroying a timeline. Or the whole reality, since I've seen some cases of crts about it and so on.

But I don't know if High-Godly comes to that.

For example, let's say a guy only has AP Low 1-C, I think the High-Godly guy can regenerate.

But what if the guy can destroy reality on a 5D level/range? I don't know.

The regeneration page doesn't talk about this. Would have to ask about it with some mod.

I asked, and it is. If you have High-Godly, no amount of AP can kill you, even destroying reality.

 

[Spilxson2]

Should I make it Excalibur Sonic or Low 2-C Super Sonic? I don't think it'd matter either way, but I want to vote Inconclusive

 

[Spilxson2]

How exactly does the Immeasurable speed work here? I wanted to make it Super Sonic vs Bugs with unequalized speed since they're both Immeasurable, but apparently there's "layers" to it? Who would be faster?

 

[FaceOff81]

I do not know that.

I know Low and Mid Godly can be bypassed depending on the destruction you do, like destroying a timeline. Or the whole reality, since I've seen some cases of crts about it and so on.

But I don't know if High-Godly comes to that.

For example, let's say a guy only has AP Low 1-C, I think the High-Godly guy can regenerate.

But what if the guy can destroy reality on a 5D level/range? I don't know.

The regeneration page doesn't talk about this. Would have to ask about it with some mod.

Alright…but why would the High-Godly Guy Regenerate from that?

 

[Omegabronic]

How exactly does the Immeasurable speed work here? I wanted to make it Super Sonic vs Bugs with unequalized speed since they're both Immeasurable, but apparently there's "layers" to it? Who would be faster?

Wait since sonic's scaling is in the works

 

[FaceOff81]

I asked, and it is. If you have High-Godly, no amount of AP can kill you, even destroying reality.

But why? Would this include those of Low 1-C and higher characters?

 

[Spilxson2]

But why? Would this include those of Low 1-C and higher characters?

Well if a Low 1-C character had no form of regeneration negation or something like existence erasure against a 2-A character, then neither character would be able to do anything to each other

 

[Spilxson2]

Wait since sonic's scaling is in the works

Alright. Well for now, speed remains equalized. Sonic's going to be faster due to amps but it won't matter due to Bugs' powers

 

[FaceOff81]

Well if a Low 1-C character had no form of regeneration negation or something like existence erasure against a 2-A character, then neither character would be able to do anything to each other

I understand what you mean by this, I’m just confused by his reasoning why.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

But why? Would this include those of Low 1-C and higher characters?

That's what the Mod said.

if he can regenerate on a high godly level he can come back from higher AP destroying reality

if they don't have a way to negate the regen yes

you come back from nothingness

no amount of destroying reality is stopping you coming back from literal nothingness unless you're erasing on a level the high godly has no way to come back from

And yes, it would include Low 1-C characters and up.

Unless they have regeneration negation or are destroyed at a more fundamental level than their regeneration covers.

For example, Mid-Godly makes you regenerate body, soul and mind. But if you destroy it at a more fundamental level that it doesn't cover, like destroying the concept, it would die.

 

[FaceOff81]

That's what the Mod said.

And yes, it would include Low 1-C characters and up.

Unless they have regeneration negation or are destroyed at a more fundamental level than their regeneration covers.

For example, Mid-Godly makes you regenerate body, soul and mind. But if you destroy it at a more fundamental level that it doesn't cover, like destroying the concept, it would die.

I see. So, if you can manipulate the concept of High-Godly Regeneration and/or High Godly Regeneration Negation, through Conceptual Manipulation Type 1, you could bypass them being unable to die resulting in them being able to to die. Furthermore, if they have High-Godly Regeneration Negation and use it on Bugs Bunny, they’d be able to cancel out his High-Godly Regeneration and be able to kill Bugs Bunny that way as well.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I see. So, if you can manipulate the concept of High-Godly Regeneration and/or High Godly Regeneration Negation, through Conceptual Manipulation Type 1, you could bypass them being unable to die resulting in them being able to to die.

Manipulating the concept of regeneration is very specific (I don't think I've ever seen a character like that)

For example, we have a character with High-Godly based on regenerating from his concept that is type 2. If I destroy this character at a concept level of type 1, he will not be able to regenerate, since I am destroying his concept in a way more fundamental.

From what I understand.

Furthermore, if they have High-Godly Regeneration Negation and use it on Bugs Bunny, they’d be able to cancel out his High-Godly Regeneration and be able to kill Bugs Bunny that way as well.

Bugs have resistance to negate their own regeneration, so no.

But Bugs' regeneration is based on fundamental type 2 information, so if someone destroyed his concept or narrative he couldn't regenerate.

That is, unless his verse is about fundamental information > concept/narrative.

For example the verse of slime isekai, everything is made of information, and in that verse information is > concept.

 

[FaceOff81]

Manipulating the concept of regeneration is very specific (I don't think I've ever seen a character like that)

For example, we have a character with High-Godly based on regenerating from his concept that is type 2. If I destroy this character at a concept level of type 1, he will not be able to regenerate, since I am destroying his concept in a way more fundamental.

From what I understand.


Bugs have resistance to negate their own regeneration, so no.

But Bugs' regeneration is based on fundamental type 2 information, so if someone destroyed his concept or narrative he couldn't regenerate.

That is, unless his verse is about fundamental information > concept/narrative.

For example the verse of slime isekai, everything is made of information, and in that verse information is > concept.

I see. When looking into Bugs Bunny, his Toon Physiology structure has him obtaining the High-Godly Regeneration as follows:

“In Cartoon Physics, if the recipient gets reduced to ash or char, they can simply reconstruct themselves and appear "virtually undamaged"[1]. They are even able to recover their complete physical forms after they have been erased or their spirit or information is destroyed. If they are unable to regenerate conventionally after a full erasure, they can regain their forms and youth from the memories and laughter of others.”


With this in mind, how would one be able to negate this and be able to permanently kill Bugs Bunny? His information regenerated so how can someone permanently kill him?

Also, why would information > concept/narrative exactly?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

With this in mind, how would one be able to negate this and be able to permanently kill Bugs Bunny? His information regenerated so how can someone permanently kill him?

Either having regeneration negation layered (because Bugs resists regeneration negation at his level) or destroying his concept/narrative (but he resists the plot)

Also, why would information > concept/narrative exactly?

I didn't exactly say that.

On this wiki there doesn't seem to be a hierarchy between concept/fundamental information/narrative regeneration.

So each High-Godly based on each different thing is different, and none would be more fundamental than the others.

Unless the character's verse treats it that way, for example, there is an anima of a slime that everything is made of information, and that fundamental information > concept, in that specific verse.