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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I guess it's a personal thing for me, I'm usually pretty obsessed with formatting my arguments and keeping it clean you could say. I'm not denying the proof, I agree with it, but I would personally trim the fat a little and make it a tad more simple you know?

Then again this could be the autism inside me speaking so I could be spewing bullshit so let's just say I usually format things differently then others
Click to expand...
That's fine

Don't downplay yourself because you have autism, it's fine that you want things to be neater I was just just expressing my opinion that I don't think it should be the standard (or in other words the priority). Thinking different has nothing to do with autism.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
That's fine

Don't downplay yourself because you have autism, it's fine that you want things to be neater I was just just expressing my opinion that I don't think it should be the standard (or in other words the priority). Thinking different has nothing to do with autism.
Click to expand...
Yeah you're right, my apologies if my comment made me sound too snobby or snooty because people write differently. I know it's nothing to get worked up on, but I didn't intend to sound like a dick because someone writes differently then I do
 
So I have been doing
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
Yeah you're right, my apologies if my comment made me sound too snobby or snooty because people write differently. I know it's nothing to get worked up on, but I didn't intend to sound like a dick because someone writes differently then I do
Click to expand...
I know that wasn't your intention, it's okay.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
I know that wasn't your intention, it's okay.
Click to expand...
Alright, that's relieving to hear.

But to the actual argument itself? Yeah, it's pretty solid evidence that Ifrit's power is indeed Universal in scope and isn't limited to scorching planets, I think this could be useful evidence for showing the consistency of Universal Base Sonic
 
Someone wanted me to post some things so I'm gonna show some things

The first thing I'll post is the Sonic and the secret rings Japanese guidebook and scans from the game.

Sonic And The Secret Rings Guidebook (It's semi-searchable)
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/xkza...able.pdf?rlkey=nf1r95wl2441jwecwfgghs29j&dl=0

Kanji to look for

世界

ワールド

Apparently there's a scan where the astral plane is called a universe at page 219 of the book so that should be good for my revision thread when it's time.

The stories in the Arabian Nights are officially acknowledged as worlds by the game.




 
Next is an argument for Game Sonic based on smt Sonic's scaling in smt dx2.

"So I did some digging and I think I get how Game Sonic can be stronger than SMT Sonic (as well as other SMT characters)

First of all we need to discuss which Sonic was summoned in SMT before we go further

In Shin Megami Tensei Dx2's crossover with Sonic The Hedgehog the setting starts near a game center in Akihabara



An Acolytes member gets cornered by the Liberators



The Acolytes member goes on about a game center, which has a lot of games and how with that many games there's an endless number of worlds to connect to continuing saying that the Liberators aren’t the only ones that can tap into other worlds according to him



He states with the Doctor’s machine he can create a network between these worlds and commanding the machine to connect and give him those demons



He then connects that machine to a “game cabinet”



It doesn’t work so he connects it to an old cabinet https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=-tTUnfg1UGzEJQG0&t=58

This is important because this points towards the demon not just being from a different world (and being from a game world) but it not being his/her/it’s latest iteration of him/her/itself

Let’s continue

The cabinet emits a bright emerald flash and the Acolyte confirms that it worked

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=bA_8mtqu7Wog_ZnQ&t=62

The demon summoned is then revealed to be none other than Sonic The Hedgehog (though new people might not know that or have known that)

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=My9GuTTjjDGo6XzA&t=70

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=P1KPnOtZlo6_d0Gh&t=83

So we confirmed that the demon must be a game version of that character and that same character can’t be in his latest incarnation because the reference to those games were described as old

And we know this character is Sonic because it’s shown that it is.

Hence the demon that has pulled up into the world of SMT is Game Sonic.

Sonic blitzes some demons that were giving the Liberators trouble and were giving the Acolyte enough time to escape

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=5tHXum3Vsn5L4jVS&t=122

It is then confirmed Sonic killed the demons

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=NkLhyyrXr6nNXiUT&t=131

And it’s also confirmed Sonic was summoned

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=0WTHvRQVZ3Y5Dr3j&t=133

This is important because summoned demons can only use a fraction of their power because those demons are mere approximations of their original selves



And the crossover in SMT revolves around being able to summon Sonic

So the summonable Sonic in SMT is a nerfed version of Sonic.

So the Sonic that appeared in the story is a old incarnation of Game Sonic at a fraction of his power and he casually beats up demons in smt.

And this Sonic is not the actual Game Sonic-

-but an approximation of him at a fraction of his power so what we should do is make a separate profile for SMT Sonic and then apply that scaling chain to Game Sonic since Game Sonic would scale to and above that

But before that, we need to discuss his feats and scaling and then figure out whether this is applicable or not to Sonic

we already talked about him no-diffing the Acolyte's demons

But he also no-diffs Hell Biker and knocks the Acolyte out

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=w6rUVV4vZ422YIMH&t=149

Keep in mind Hell Biker was strong enough to not get immediately obliterated fighting Dante, the Protagonist and Nero
https://youtu.be/7Cq09guetok?si=b71zQp8G9qJf3Tzo&t=610
With Dante saying he had some backbone to him
https://youtu.be/7Cq09guetok?si=ghaO3u9CFFoJxGcO&t=770

Yet Sonic oneshotted him

Now before we get to the last part of the scaling lets take into account the protagonists' feats before meeting Sonic

Can fight and defeat Vanitas and his demons which include Angel Lucifer
https://youtu.be/pLHuJzij03o?si=jkdTkEF5OEVYUqSR&t=2100
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5q9qBfFZ6Q&pp=ygUkc2hpbiBtZWdhbWkgdGVuc2VpIGR4MiBsdWNpZmVyIG1vdmll

Can beat a whole slew of higher end demons in the SMT world (which includes some Angels and Metatron in which the latter was implied to be using the power of God)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWhEIBqoIDk&pp=ygUiYXVyYSBnYXRlIHNoaW4gbWVnYW1pIHRlbnNlaSBtb3ZpZQ==
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD8RheBkCxA&pp=ygUlc2hpbiBtZWdhbWkgdGVuc2VpIGR4MiBtZXRhdHJvbiBtb3ZpZQ==

Can low-end match with Bayonetta
https://youtu.be/aDg2orAHssg?si=XpyzgVxoKSi2AefF&t=986

Can low-end match with Dante to the point he could fight Dante until Dante could figure out he wasn't an enemy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qg...hbWkgdGVuc2VpIGR4MiBkZXZpbCBtYXkgY3J5IG1vdmll
https://youtu.be/6ILnxVrWJtQ?si=4ue5ZL4vVVRi0bMa

It’s shown Dante can fight and defeat Lucifer amped by the Great Will

https://youtu.be/jfqe779mTVg?si=N0_pzCDd7BeftYEg

Now for the end of the scaling

Megakin says that they can't stop Sonic in response to a question on if they should leave him
https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=ZlJCaHgRArlmSYdy&t=262

Now despite all of their feats and accomplishments they can't measure up to Sonic at all?

This implies Sonic is on a completely different level when compared to them even supported by you not fighting him.

Keep in mind the game allows Sonic to beat the likes of Lucifer and Metatron
https://youtu.be/UgltJ3H5c7w?si=-lY-gkSmm9g2Ih8_&t=51
https://youtu.be/UgltJ3H5c7w?si=XGY7ZTPa-TBOO8a2&t=130 "

So what do you guys think?
 
Last edited:
I was just gonna comment on smthn completely unrelated, the possibility of game Maginaryworld being a 5D Hypertimeline depending on how Dream Team pans out. But this is also cool.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Snip
Click to expand...
I think the thing which really hurts SMT Sonic's scaling is that all the demons he defeated or is comparable to are merely fractions of their normal power, so where would Sonic scale to? I think at the very least, he'd be Low 1-C if he can fight or is comparable to fractioned Lucifer and Metatron level characters.
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I think the thing which really hurts SMT Sonic's scaling is that all the demons he defeated or is comparable to are merely fractions of their normal power, so where would Sonic scale to? I think at the very least, he'd be Low 1-C if he can fight or is comparable to fractioned Lucifer and Metatron level characters.
Click to expand...
According to the argument the Metatron and Lucifer you fight are the real deal and not fractions like Sonic and the protagonist defeated them but didn’t think they could stop Sonic. That’s what the argument is getting at I think.

Regardless Game Sonic should be stronger because the demon Sonic is summoned from Game Sonic’s world and is a mere approximation/fraction of Game Sonic.

And you can think of it one other way and that’s smt Sonic can blitz stomp the demons at a fraction of their power while Sonic only has a fraction of his power as well so logically if they were to fight at their best Sonic should still stomp.
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I think the thing which really hurts SMT Sonic's scaling is that all the demons he defeated or is comparable to are merely fractions of their normal power, so where would Sonic scale to? I think at the very least, he'd be Low 1-C if he can fight or is comparable to fractioned Lucifer and Metatron level characters.
Click to expand...
SMT stuff is just not being aware of how MT cosmology works

The reason why demons created by summons are weaker is because of how their forms emanate from the top of the cosmology into the bottom layers of the world. Not everything that is randomly "summoned" is part of that process (There's a super complete cosmology blog about that on the Wiki). Of course, I don't think anyone is thinking there's some 1-A Archetypal Sonic over there in the Kether (And if there was, that of course is not the same as game sonic for obvious reasons).
 
Executor_N0 said:
(And if there was, that of course is not the same as game sonic for obvious reasons).
Click to expand...
That’s definitely a version of Game Sonic considering that Sonic came from a Sonic game (we don’t know which)

Also I would also have to disagree with your other statement (in the Dx2 world at least) it’s stated specifically that the reason why the summoned demons are weaker are because they are mere approximations of their actual selves so they don’t have the same power as their original counterparts would

https://media.discordapp.net/attach...d05b89fde767f3bb81cafa413ed4fef7d75ec1760922&

https://media.discordapp.net/attach...55355ad3412133fc682da084daeab77f0fda169c01ee&

This is not a misunderstanding of the cosmology, this is what is actually said by the game itself.
 
Yes, the actual selves in question refer to the Archetypal version that resides at the top of reality, everything that exists there is a manifestation of those forms that exist up there beyond all of time and space. That has been the case since the original novels.

"Summoning a demon is just a transfer of the matter comprising the demon in the Atziluth World to the real Assiah World, and a computer is the perfect device to facilitate it." That is literally mentioned even in that game.
 
Executor_N0 said:
Yes, the actual selves in question refer to the Archetypal version that resides at the top of reality, everything that exists there is a manifestation of those forms that exist up there beyond all of time and space. That has been the case since the original novels.

"Summoning a demon is just a transfer of the matter comprising the demon in the Atziluth World to the real Assiah World, and a computer is the perfect device to facilitate it." That is literally mentioned even in that game.
Click to expand...
The problem with that is it is implied that the Sonic in smt is from sonic the hedgehog not Atziluth and proof?

The scan does not say that it only says "not the demons from our world, but demons from a place called Atziluth" and based on the background I don't think that's from the same instance and is lacking context so if you don't mind can you show me the video/game clip where this is from?
 
ThatBusyDude said:
The problem with that is it is implied that the Sonic in smt is from sonic the hedgehog not Atziluth and proof?

The scan does not say that it only says "not the demons from our world, but demons from a place called Atziluth" and based on the background I don't think that's from the same instance and is lacking context so if you don't mind can you show me the video/game clip where this is from?
Click to expand...
Just so I can take a look for myself.
 
I want to know where it is explicitly said that "original selves" of the summoned demon in smt refers to an archetypal version I still have not gotten this.
 
Last edited:
ThatBusyDude said:
Next is an argument for Game Sonic based on smt Sonic's scaling in smt dx2.

"So I did some digging and I think I get how Game Sonic can be stronger than SMT Sonic (as well as other SMT characters)

First of all we need to discuss which Sonic was summoned in SMT before we go further

In Shin Megami Tensei Dx2's crossover with Sonic The Hedgehog the setting starts near a game center in Akihabara



An Acolytes member gets cornered by the Liberators



The Acolytes member goes on about a game center, which has a lot of games and how with that many games there's an endless number of worlds to connect to continuing saying that the Liberators aren’t the only ones that can tap into other worlds according to him



He states with the Doctor’s machine he can create a network between these worlds and commanding the machine to connect and give him those demons



He then connects that machine to a “game cabinet”



It doesn’t work so he connects it to an old cabinet https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=-tTUnfg1UGzEJQG0&t=58

This is important because this points towards the demon not just being from a different world (and being from a game world) but it not being his/her/it’s latest iteration of him/her/itself

Let’s continue

The cabinet emits a bright emerald flash and the Acolyte confirms that it worked

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=bA_8mtqu7Wog_ZnQ&t=62

The demon summoned is then revealed to be none other than Sonic The Hedgehog (though new people might not know that or have known that)

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=My9GuTTjjDGo6XzA&t=70

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=P1KPnOtZlo6_d0Gh&t=83

So we confirmed that the demon must be a game version of that character and that same character can’t be in his latest incarnation because the reference to those games were described as old

And we know this character is Sonic because it’s shown that it is.

Hence the demon that has pulled up into the world of SMT is Game Sonic.

Sonic blitzes some demons that were giving the Liberators trouble and were giving the Acolyte enough time to escape

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=5tHXum3Vsn5L4jVS&t=122

It is then confirmed Sonic killed the demons

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=NkLhyyrXr6nNXiUT&t=131

And it’s also confirmed Sonic was summoned

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=0WTHvRQVZ3Y5Dr3j&t=133

This is important because summoned demons can only use a fraction of their power because those demons are mere approximations of their original selves



And the crossover in SMT revolves around being able to summon Sonic

So the summonable Sonic in SMT is a nerfed version of Sonic.

So the Sonic that appeared in the story is a old incarnation of Game Sonic at a fraction of his power and he casually beats up demons in smt.

And this Sonic is not the actual Game Sonic-

-but an approximation of him at a fraction of his power so what we should do is make a separate profile for SMT Sonic and then apply that scaling chain to Game Sonic since Game Sonic would scale to and above that

But before that, we need to discuss his feats and scaling and then figure out whether this is applicable or not to Sonic

we already talked about him no-diffing the Acolyte's demons

But he also no-diffs Hell Biker and knocks the Acolyte out

https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=w6rUVV4vZ422YIMH&t=149

Keep in mind Hell Biker was strong enough to not get immediately obliterated fighting Dante, the Protagonist and Nero
https://youtu.be/7Cq09guetok?si=b71zQp8G9qJf3Tzo&t=610
With Dante saying he had some backbone to him
https://youtu.be/7Cq09guetok?si=ghaO3u9CFFoJxGcO&t=770

Yet Sonic oneshotted him

Now before we get to the last part of the scaling lets take into account the protagonists' feats before meeting Sonic

Can fight and defeat Vanitas and his demons which include Angel Lucifer
https://youtu.be/pLHuJzij03o?si=jkdTkEF5OEVYUqSR&t=2100
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5q9qBfFZ6Q&pp=ygUkc2hpbiBtZWdhbWkgdGVuc2VpIGR4MiBsdWNpZmVyIG1vdmll

Can beat a whole slew of higher end demons in the SMT world (which includes some Angels and Metatron in which the latter was implied to be using the power of God)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWhEIBqoIDk&pp=ygUiYXVyYSBnYXRlIHNoaW4gbWVnYW1pIHRlbnNlaSBtb3ZpZQ==
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD8RheBkCxA&pp=ygUlc2hpbiBtZWdhbWkgdGVuc2VpIGR4MiBtZXRhdHJvbiBtb3ZpZQ==

Can low-end match with Bayonetta
https://youtu.be/aDg2orAHssg?si=XpyzgVxoKSi2AefF&t=986

Can low-end match with Dante to the point he could fight Dante until Dante could figure out he wasn't an enemy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qg...hbWkgdGVuc2VpIGR4MiBkZXZpbCBtYXkgY3J5IG1vdmll
https://youtu.be/6ILnxVrWJtQ?si=4ue5ZL4vVVRi0bMa

It’s shown Dante can fight and defeat Lucifer amped by the Great Will

https://youtu.be/jfqe779mTVg?si=N0_pzCDd7BeftYEg

Now for the end of the scaling

Megakin says that they can't stop Sonic in response to a question on if they should leave him
https://youtu.be/T5wtZQEnkTc?si=ZlJCaHgRArlmSYdy&t=262

Now despite all of their feats and accomplishments they can't measure up to Sonic at all?

This implies Sonic is on a completely different level when compared to them even supported by you not fighting him.

Keep in mind the game allows Sonic to beat the likes of Lucifer and Metatron
https://youtu.be/UgltJ3H5c7w?si=-lY-gkSmm9g2Ih8_&t=51
https://youtu.be/UgltJ3H5c7w?si=XGY7ZTPa-TBOO8a2&t=130 "

So what do you guys think?
Click to expand...


This feels like if this is brought up to Ian he would just simply say "no."
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Metal Sonic mentions higher dimensions

sonic.sega.jp

ソニック & メタルソニック

誰もいないDr.エッグマンの秘密研究所......起動とともにデータベースに接続したそのロボットは、今の状況を把握してこう評価しました。 [[ この状況は
sonic.sega.jp


“自分はまだより高い次元に達することができる。その次元で優劣をつけるべき相手がいる......”
Click to expand...
This just seems to be referring to reaching a higher level (no correlation to dimensionality) and not necessarily a higher dimension since that kanji doesn't only mean mathematical dimension and can instead refer to a layer or level.
 
Clown96 said:
Where can i see the arabian scaling
Click to expand...
I posted a little bit of it before the smt Sonic stuff.

Me and some other people have been covering the Arabian nights from Sonic and compiling evidence for it being a higher into Tier 2 structure.

So far it’s been pretty good but I don’t know what everyone thinks of it and I’m trying to clear that all up before making a revision thread on it.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Someone wanted me to post some things so I'm gonna show some things

The first thing I'll post is the Sonic and the secret rings Japanese guidebook and scans from the game.

Sonic And The Secret Rings Guidebook (It's semi-searchable)
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/xkza...able.pdf?rlkey=nf1r95wl2441jwecwfgghs29j&dl=0

Kanji to look for

世界

ワールド

Apparently there's a scan where the astral plane is called a universe at page 219 of the book so that should be good for my revision thread when it's time.

The stories in the Arabian Nights are officially acknowledged as worlds by the game.




Click to expand...
@Clown96 here.

Post in thread 'Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/sonic-general-discussion-zone-act-1-new-frontiers.107614/post-6145568
 
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