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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

LaserPrecision said:
Which isn't argument from ignorance. Nothing is being asserted as true or false. In fact I agree to the statement being true as it was claimed by Ian. This is again an issue of limitless being able to mean different things and being able to be interpreted in different ways.

Yes, it can contain any of those things. But in the context of Sonic's world. It could encompass any concept, size, etc. that exists within Sonic. Not every theory, idea, concept, etc. that exists irl exists within Sonic's world. Extrapolating that it could contain any concept or idea not in the setting of Sonic is a stretch given Ian's answer comment was in reference to his world (pun not intended, but well welcomed).

So we're in agreement. We wouldn't extrapolate something like infinite to mean anything other than "baseline" infinity without any context.

No, low ends are a safe lowerbound. Baseline is the absolute minimum possible. And while its entirely possible for a lowend to not be accurate, the same could again be said for a mid end and high end. The reason I go with the low-end is because at the very least it CAN'T be wrong as there's evidence it can't possibly be lower. A mid-end and high-end can be wrong and doesn't have the same luxary as a low-end. Hitchen's razor in this case would make the low-end the safest pick as its based on the bare minimum interpretation of the statement, whereas the high-end makes the an extrapolation on Ian's statement to be correct. Thus It should be dismissed in favor of the low-end (though if a mid-end with less assumptions exist, that would also work). And yes, hard agree on people trying to abuse officials lack of knowledge in attempt to wank this (and many) verses.

Eh, if he's fine with answering, that's fine. It'd be preferable if they instead stopped. Not like it should really matter if an official agrees with something they have no knowledge on to satisfy the questioner.
Click to expand...
Yes it is. “The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary.” Basically asserting that something isn’t the case because one hasn’t observed it is an argument from ignorance because it’s an assumption of a conclusion based on a lack of evidence.

And let’s assume that any concept and size that exists in our world exists in Sonic? Then what? Are you going to make the argument that Sonic’s world doesn’t have our concept’s because it hasn’t shown it even though Ian Flynn has expressed that concepts of infinity and omega exists in Sonic? You know someone could just ask Ian whether Sonic has concepts found in our world and call it a day right? I highly doubt Ian Flynn would say no to that. It should also be noted Ian Flynn is the same guy who agreed Platonic Concepts like Truth, Beauty, Goodness and Justice exists in Sonic


Endless Possibilities exist throughout Sonic's world and multiverse


Concepts of Higher Dimensions exists in Sonic's world


The concepts of Infinity and Omega exists in Sonic


Eitaro Toyoda said all concepts of sets and sequences is a knowledge that exists in Sonic’s world


Ian Flynn confirms and agrees with Platonic Abstract Objects like Ideas, Concepts, and Numbers (with Thoughts and etc counting as Platonic Abstract Objects) existing in Sonic at 21:11 of this.

So I mean there’s cases to here. Sonic’s world was even particularly mentioned so I think it was talking about those things in general.

Infinity varies, having no limits has to what Dreams can contain is as clear as day that’s the issue here.

That’s not what lowball means. Lowball means to offer a deceptively or unrealistically low estimate, bid, etc. to. According to Oxford Dictionary so it is literally downplay. Except Occam’s Razor makes the medium the safest pick along with the statement of dreams being able to contain any and all sizes and concepts.

Not even, I think he’s implied he is sick of the questions but if he’s okay with it then I guess it’s fine.
 
Michael-Jackson-Popcorn-GIF-Meme-Eating-Popcorn-Featured-StudioBinder.jpg
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Yes it is. “The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary.” Basically asserting that something isn’t the case because one hasn’t observed it is an argument from ignorance because it’s an assumption of a conclusion based on a lack of evidence.

And let’s assume that any concept and size that exists in our world exists in Sonic? Then what? Are you going to make the argument that Sonic’s world doesn’t have our concept’s because it hasn’t shown it even though Ian Flynn has expressed that concepts of infinity and omega exists in Sonic? You know someone could just ask Ian whether Sonic has concepts found in our world and call it a day right? I highly doubt Ian Flynn would say no to that. It should also be noted Ian Flynn is the same guy who agreed Platonic Concepts like Truth, Beauty, Goodness and Justice exists in Sonic


Endless Possibilities exist throughout Sonic's world and multiverse


Concepts of Higher Dimensions exists in Sonic's world


The concepts of Infinity and Omega exists in Sonic


Eitaro Toyoda said all concepts of sets and sequences is a knowledge that exists in Sonic’s world


Ian Flynn confirms and agrees with Platonic Abstract Objects like Ideas, Concepts, and Numbers (with Thoughts and etc counting as Platonic Abstract Objects) existing in Sonic at 21:11 of this.

So I mean there’s cases to here. Sonic’s world was even particularly mentioned so I think it was talking about those things in general.

Infinity varies, having no limits has to what Dreams can contain is as clear as day that’s the issue here.

That’s not what lowball means. Lowball means to offer a deceptively or unrealistically low estimate, bid, etc. to. According to Oxford Dictionary so it is literally downplay. Except Occam’s Razor makes the medium the safest pick along with the statement of dreams being able to contain any and all sizes and concepts.

Not even, I think he’s implied he is sick of the questions but if he’s okay with it then I guess it’s fine.
Click to expand...


No, it still isn't. My conclusion wasn't "Ian's claim is false because we haven't seen if it can contain everything"

It was "Ian is right, though his statement shouldn't be interpreted in this manner."

I'm contesting the way his statement is interpreted, not the validity of it altogether.

Lets assume all concepts, sizes, mathematics exist in Sonic's world, sure. Ideally, we'd be looking at a tier 0 Maginary world. The issue? There's also no evidence all of those DO exist in Sonic's world. That in and of itself is argument from ignorance. What can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. And simply because some concepts from our world have been showcased (or parts of it anyway) in Sonic's world doesn't mean they ALL do. Sure, they can pester Ian about whatever concepts they want. If he says it's in the universe it's fine. But he hasn't yet. That's what is important (although if his claims are valid or not are another topic of discussion altogether).

As for all those statements of those coexisting in Sonic's world? That's fine. Though that's still not EVERY concept that exists irl. Just a handful (though if the sources are valid are a different topic of discussion).

Being limitless isnt exactly as clear as day. It means multiple things. "without a limit; very great" (Source: Oxfordictionary). We also haven't accounted that not all statements irl are black and white. There can be hyperbole, exaggeration, generalization, etc.

My mistake on the lowball mistake. For future reference ill refer to it as a low-end/conservative estimate instead.
 
I feel dreams in Sonic are universal in size, personally. Though, it's perfectly alright for people to call things into question, and I don't mean this against' anyone here, but it bothers me when people arm themselves just because what they buy in VS is questioned by someone else.
For me, if something is implied as a universe, that's enough evidence to deem it such.
 
MysticMania said:
I feel dreams in Sonic are universal in size, personally. Though, it's perfectly alright for people to call things into question, and I don't mean this against' anyone here, but it bothers me when people arm themselves just because what they buy in VS is questioned by someone else.
For me, if something is implied as a universe, that's enough evidence to deem it such.
Click to expand...
Idk so I guess the evidence for dreams being universe sized is

-People have dreams involving the universe, even though they may not know the full scope of the universe it’s assumed their dream is perfectly accurate cosmology wise.

-Some dreams containing an outer space setting (even though only one non-4D space dream across the games I’ve found remotely hits anything above MSS by visuals).

-WoG that dreams are limitless and can contain things like infinity and adventures related to crossing universes, which might be trolling.

It’s still kind of shaky to me, especially when in 4D space the constellation equivalents are small enough you can cross them with a few steps from normal size Sonic, which further shows how dreams may not be cosmologically accurate.
 
Sure, I doubt Eggman knows the exact placement of every star, galaxy, nebula etc. in the universe. Even the immortal dream goddess’s dream has tiny constellations inside.
 
JJSliderman said:
Sure, I doubt Eggman knows the exact placement of every star, galaxy, nebula etc. in the universe. Even the immortal dream goddess’s dream has tiny constellations inside.
Click to expand...
He casually created a Low 2-C structure (the ad Infinium maze) just to conduct some badnik experiments in this free time. Not that I expect anyone to actually understand how someone with a 300iq perceives reality but go on I guess?

Chaos incarnate is this thread.
 
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
He casually created a Low 2-C structure (the ad Infinium maze) just to conduct some badnik experiments in this free time. Not that I expect anyone to actually understand how someone with a 300iq perceives reality but go on I guess?

Chaos incarnate is this thread.
Click to expand...
The maze itself isn’t universe sized, it’s a space that keeps folding in on itself and growing at random.
 
LaserPrecision said:
No, it still isn't. My conclusion wasn't "Ian's claim is false because we haven't seen if it can contain everything"

It was "Ian is right, though his statement shouldn't be interpreted in this manner."

I'm contesting the way his statement is interpreted, not the validity of it altogether.

Lets assume all concepts, sizes, mathematics exist in Sonic's world, sure. Ideally, we'd be looking at a tier 0 Maginary world. The issue? There's also no evidence all of those DO exist in Sonic's world. That in and of itself is argument from ignorance. What can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. And simply because some concepts from our world have been showcased (or parts of it anyway) in Sonic's world doesn't mean they ALL do. Sure, they can pester Ian about whatever concepts they want. If he says it's in the universe it's fine. But he hasn't yet. That's what is important (although if his claims are valid or not are another topic of discussion altogether).

As for all those statements of those coexisting in Sonic's world? That's fine. Though that's still not EVERY concept that exists irl. Just a handful (though if the sources are valid are a different topic of discussion).

Being limitless isnt exactly as clear as day. It means multiple things. "without a limit; very great" (Source: Oxfordictionary). We also haven't accounted that not all statements irl are black and white. There can be hyperbole, exaggeration, generalization, etc.

My mistake on the lowball mistake. For future reference ill refer to it as a low-end/conservative estimate instead.
Click to expand...
Then what are you trying to assert? You’re trying to apply a limit to something that is officially stated to have no limit which is at the very least headcanon.

So you’re saying we shouldn’t use obvious context clues and the definition of no limits?

My point wasn’t that you were contesting the validity of Ian’s statement, it’s that you were trying to apply a limit that doesn’t exist in context of Ian’s statement.

Dude I just showcased all concepts of sets, numbers, higher dimensions and etc existing in Sonic through Ian and Eitaro statements (which is High 1-B and up casually) you want confirmation that concepts in our world exist in Sonic’s then that’s fine but it would be on the verge of begging the question don’t you think? Plus Eitaro Toyoda believes that Sonic’s world can accept everything and that in Sonic’s world anything is possible and that his world is full of imagination and adventure.


That said it’s Occam’s Razor that all concepts that exist in our world exist in Sonic’s but even without that the concepts that have been stated to exist would already give MaginaryWorld a Tier 1-0 rating.

So what do you want us to do? Ask Ian or Eitaro if concepts and knowledge that exist in our world exist in Sonic’s? You know the answer will be yes.

If that was hyperbole he wouldn’t have agreed to using it to say all sizes, ranges, scopes and concepts exist within MaginaryWorld and dreams he would’ve said “I didn’t mean it literally.” For suggesting such a thing.

Alright.
 
JJSliderman said:
Ian sounded kind of unsure when answering so I’m not sure how seriously to take it.

Especially when Sonic broke out almost instantly which would mean he outpaced an infinite space.
Click to expand...
The folding in itself and expanding part didn’t come from Ian that came from the comic. The infinite dimensional part did come from Ian though.

What’s even more interesting is it was confirmed that the laws of physics in Sonic is indeed capable of creating the space Eggman created according to Ian



So if we took his statement seriously it would mean the laws of physics in Sonic would be infinite dimensional. Just something to consider.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
The folding in itself and expanding part didn’t come from Ian that came from the comic. The infinite dimensional part did come from Ian though.

What’s even more interesting is it was confirmed that the laws of physics in Sonic is indeed capable of creating the space Eggman created according to Ian



So if we took his statement seriously it would mean the laws of physics in Sonic would be infinite dimensional. Just something to consider.
Click to expand...

Er, not really. It just means the laws of physics can make a dimension with “no physical limitations”, but the dimension itself only shows an MSS level size based on visuals.
 
JJSliderman said:
Er, not really. It just means the laws of physics can make a dimension with “no physical limitations”, but the dimension itself only shows an MSS level size based on visuals.
Click to expand...
But Ian Flynn confirmed it was infinite dimensional

Not only that but it’s pretty clear it’s not multi solar system sized considering it’s called a proportionally expansive space that circumvents spatial laws and it folds in on itself and expands ad infinitum (which means to infinity).



It should be way above MSS level and onto to Low 2-C at the very least, but looking at Ian’s statements on it I’d say it could potentially be High 1-B.
 
First off I think infinite would only mean infinite 3-D space unless further proven.

Second, the space itself continuously grows before retracting itself, it doesn’t grow into infinity, it can just do its processes ad infinitum.
 
JJSliderman said:
First off I think infinite would only mean infinite 3-D space unless further proven.

Second, the space itself continuously grows before retracting itself, it doesn’t grow into infinity, it can just do its processes ad infinitum.
Click to expand...
The problem with that is there’s shown to be Hypercubes in Eggman’s space showing that it has at least 4 spatial dimensions.

The whole narrative revealed at the end of that arc was that the space was supposed to grow until it could reach a level that could contain Sonic so I don’t think it’s logical to say retracts and shrinks.
 
JJSliderman said:
Sure, I doubt Eggman knows the exact placement of every star, galaxy, nebula etc. in the universe. Even the immortal dream goddess’s dream has tiny constellations inside.
Click to expand...
This is once again ignoring the fact that this was rebuked already, both in and out of Sonic threads alike. If characters needed to understand the full scope of the universe, a lot of people would be downgraded, and that's exactly why the idea was cut.

I don't understand why you decide to question every single thing that's already been dealt with before, it gets annoying. Especially when all you accomplish is wasting the time of others to entertain you.
 
ShakeResounding said:
This is once again ignoring the fact that this was rebuked already, both in and out of Sonic threads alike. If characters needed to understand the full scope of the universe, a lot of people would be downgraded, and that's exactly why the idea was cut.

I don't understand why you decide to question every single thing that's already been dealt with before, it gets annoying. Especially when all you accomplish is wasting the time of others to entertain you.
Click to expand...
How was it refuted? Could you show us the argument?
 
ShakeResounding said:
This is once again ignoring the fact that this was rebuked already, both in and out of Sonic threads alike. If characters needed to understand the full scope of the universe, a lot of people would be downgraded, and that's exactly why the idea was cut.

I don't understand why you decide to question every single thing that's already been dealt with before, it gets annoying. Especially when all you accomplish is wasting the time of others to entertain you.
Click to expand...
I think characters should need to understand the full scope of the universe if their dreams are the basis for the worlds in Maginaryworld, so the world’s shape is based on the dreamer’s perception of the universe. And when we have Fourth Dimension Space with decidedly inaccurate cosmology elements it makes me doubt even the MSS spaces are fully accurate, let alone them being universes.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
The problem with that is there’s shown to be Hypercubes in Eggman’s space showing that it has at least 4 spatial dimensions.

The whole narrative revealed at the end of that arc was that the space was supposed to grow until it could reach a level that could contain Sonic so I don’t think it’s logical to say retracts and shrinks.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it would eventually get to that level, who knows how long it would take or if Eggman could even perceive what infinite looks like.

Not to mention the time chamber in Dragon Ball is a planet sized space time continuum, being 4D does not mean automatically infinite space.
 
ShakeResounding said:
Stopped there, I'm not going to keep responding to the same point over and over, sorry.
Click to expand...
Bruh, I know that the Precioustone is the source of all dreams, but the dreamers are the ones who lay claim to each dream world, and the world is themed around what the dreamers want. Fact is there’s barely any evidence for dreams being universe sized outside of statements, and the cosmology we do get in the dreams when viewed up close is not always accurate to how it is in real life.
 
JJSliderman said:
Yeah, it would eventually get to that level, who knows how long it would take or if Eggman could even perceive what infinite looks like.

Not to mention the time chamber in Dragon Ball is a planet sized space time continuum, being 4D does not mean automatically infinite space.
Click to expand...
It already seemed to have expanded infinitely. I agree with Shake here, what Eggman perceives wouldn’t matter, what is or isn’t should rely entirely on what the space has within it.

Yeah but it doesn’t expand infinitely along with having higher spatial dimensions that circumvent spatial laws.
 
JJSliderman said:
Fact is there’s barely any evidence for dreams being universe sized outside of statements, and the cosmology we do get in the dreams when viewed up close is not always accurate to how it is in real life.
Click to expand...
If there are no contradictions to the statements whatsoever, they can be used. If the dreams are stated to be universal in size, and there's nothing that disproves this otherwise, then POV doesn't matter, the statements are valid. Unless you have evidence that shows that dreams aren't universal in size, then your point is moot.
 
thetechmaster36 said:
If there are no contradictions to the statements whatsoever, they can be used. If the dreams are stated to be universal in size, and there's nothing that disproves this otherwise, then POV doesn't matter, the statements are valid. Unless you have evidence that shows that dreams aren't universal in size, then your point is moot.
Click to expand...
Fourth dimension space has constellations that Sonic can walk across in like 5 steps, the stars are clearly not always the size of real stars.

Not to mention Joe Schmoe on the street should not be capable of exactly mapping out a universe’s cosmology in a dream unless we can actually see evidence he knows the full scope of the universe beyond Google searches.

The statements aren’t even statements saying the dreams are universe sized, it’s just that people have wishes that mention the universe in them, and because of quotes saying that wishes correlate to dreams, it means the dreams are universe sized because they involve the universe, which is a big leap.
 
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