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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

omegabronic said:
i sonic dreams of maginary world, that becomes a dream realm inside of it, which would countain a another maginary world, and then another? just thought of it lol
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how about you ask ian that, because it's a bit confusing to do the ''maginaryworld inside the maginaryworld''
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
If it’s the future then it would share the same exact past and present, meaning it would have had galaxies inside of it at least at some point. What the Chao specifically perceives doesn’t matter.
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It does matter, just because something is true irl doesn’t mean it holds true inside a dream, the dreamer can have different perceptions. It doesn’t help that none of the dream worlds present are actually called universes.
 
People can just have a faulty perception of how large the universe is, they may know it’s big but may not grasp how big. Calling it a wish related to the universe shouldn’t be enough, there should actually be cosmology elements that confirm definitively dreams have a universal scope, and Sonic doesn’t satisfy that from what I can tell outside of 4th dimension space.
 
JJSliderman said:
People can just have a faulty perception of how large the universe is, they may know it’s big but may not grasp how big. Calling it a wish related to the universe shouldn’t be enough, there should actually be cosmology elements that confirm definitively dreams have a universal scope, and Sonic doesn’t satisfy that from what I can tell outside of 4th dimension space.
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galaxies in the dream worlds
 
Because the “galaxies” in the image don’t really look like galaxies, the outer parts of said galaxies appear more like a few stars or other similarly bright objects clumped together in some instances, and are spread far apart from neighboring objects rather than being a single unbroken mass like most galaxies in fiction are portrayed as.
 
JJSliderman said:
-and are spread far apart from neighboring objects rather than being a single unbroken mass like most galaxies in fiction are portrayed as.
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This part here is style over substance, not all of fiction will adhere to how other franchises depict celestial bodies. I'm not a very big fan of disregarding logic in favor of visuals.
 
ShakeResounding said:
This part here is style over substance, not all of fiction will adhere to how other franchises depict celestial bodies. I'm not a very big fan of disregarding logic in favor of visuals.
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what about the ''lights''in sandopolis in sonic team racing?they look like stars(and sandopolis is in the day and not in the night)
 
ShakeResounding said:
This has been talked about and rebuked numerous times, this is as slippery a slope as saying Game Maginaryworld can encompass dimensions because scientists in their world who understand it. Like, can we not bring up years-old arguments? Again?
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The latter argument doesn’t sound bad when you take in the fact that Ian Flynn agrees with the notion that the fourth dimensional space in Sonic Shuffle can contain any and all sizes and concepts

This is also going along with the fact Dimensions in Sonic The Hedgehog contain concepts of size, time and dimensions


Not to mention Sonic characters can
dream of concepts, their ambitions, goals, desires and adventures


So with that said it’s not a ridiculous idea that MaginaryWorld can encompass Dimensions.
 
JJSliderman said:
It being the future doesn’t mean that the dream would be universe sized, the Chao doesn’t perceive anything like galaxies inside of its dream.
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This is very dishonest. It being the future would mean it’s the future state of that universe so it should have everything the universe has and more since it’s the future.

You talk about how the Chao doesn’t perceive things like galaxies in its dream but forget it was smart enough to dream up stars and space. It would be illogical to assume there’s no galaxies in it.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
This is very dishonest. It being the future would mean it’s the future state of that universe so it should have everything the universe has and more since it’s the future.

You talk about how the Chao doesn’t perceive things like galaxies in its dream but forget it was smart enough to dream up stars and space. It would be illogical to assume there’s no galaxies in it.
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We can see stars and space all the time by looking up, that doesn’t equate to being able to dream up galaxies.
 
omegabronic said:
i sonic dreams of maginary world, that becomes a dream realm inside of it, which would countain a another maginary world, and then another? just thought of it lol
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It’s possible that Sonic dreams of MaginaryWorld considering Ian agreed with the idea that he dreams of his adventures. If we take that it would mean MaginaryWorld contains itself.
 
JJSliderman said:
We can see stars and space all the time by looking up, that doesn’t equate to being able to dream up galaxies.
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JJ you act as if galaxies are separate from space. If there’s space there’s galaxies unless stated otherwise. If you dream up space you likely dream up its contents as well.

Also if this was your question then Ian Flynn already implied the Chao dreamed up a full universe and that dreams have no limits in Sonic

There’s nothing proving it isn’t the size of a full universe.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
JJ you act as if galaxies are separate from space. If there’s space there’s galaxies unless stated otherwise. If you dream up space you likely dream up its contents as well.
Also if this was your question then Ian Flynn already implied the Chao dreamed up a full universe and that dreams have no limits in Sonic

There’s nothing proving it isn’t the size of a full universe
Click to expand...


You know Ian does a lot of trolling right, he probably doesn’t understand half the shit he gets asked and is just trying to move along.

Not to mention that “space” is clearly not synonymous with galaxies, otherwise every MSS character would have to be upgraded to uni immediately.

Hell, I asked the question in the clip.
 
JJSliderman said:
You know Ian does a lot of trolling right, he probably doesn’t understand half the shit he gets asked and is just trying to move along.
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That did not strike me as trolling at all, it seems he was actually trying to answer the question and in order to be open to the interpretations others have of dreams in Sonic he said that dreams have no limits so he and other people wouldn’t have this issue again. I recall this quote by Ian being used to confirm other things and surely enough he agreed to it.

He’s part of the lore team now we can’t just dismiss what he says. If he says dreams have no limits and implies the Chao from the short dreamed up a full universe that’s just the way it is.
 
Undylan said:
Ian is also a freelance writer. Not the general word of god from Sonic Team itself.
Click to expand...
He is part of the lore team and might even be lore manager. He’s not just some run of the mill random anymore. Unless it contrasts with the source material or someone of higher authority like Iizuka and Toyoda it should be accepted.
 
Dreams having no limits is smthn you can very easily abuse by saying “Maginaryworld can hold an infinite dimensional hierarchy so it is boundless.”

No defined line.
 
JJSliderman said:
Dreams having no limits is smthn you can very easily abuse by saying “Maginaryworld can hold an infinite dimensional hierarchy so it is boundless.”

No defined line.
Click to expand...
I agree with you there (And agree not necessarily every dream needs to be a universe), but as the claim was made in response to a question about the Chao's dreaming up an entire universe, it seems evident he believes at the very least the limit is beyond dreaming up a universe. Otherwise he would've asserted otherwise.
 
JJSliderman said:
Dreams having no limits is smthn you can very easily abuse by saying “Maginaryworld can hold an infinite dimensional hierarchy so it is boundless.”

No defined line.
Click to expand...
Yo WT- LMFAO! You’re right but at the same time he did say there was no limits. Someone not only gooned that using the whole “dreams have no limits” crap but even had Ian Flynn agree with that:


Along with the fact that he agreed that Sonic characters can and does dream of concepts, goals and etc


There’s a very big high if Flynn and Toyoda statements were to be allowed in this site. You have to admit that at least.
 
LaserPrecision said:
I agree with you there (And agree not necessarily every dream needs to be a universe), but as the claim was made in response to a question about the Chao's dreaming up an entire universe, it seems evident he believes at the very least the limit is beyond dreaming up a universe. Otherwise he would've asserted otherwise.
Click to expand...
The thing is he said that there is no limit meaning anything is on the table and it can very well be abused like JJ said I’m pretty sure if someone had hypothetically asked Ian if anything is on the table for dreams in Sonic since they have no limits Ian would give a quick yes with no second thought.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
The thing is he said that there is no limit meaning anything is on the table and it can very well be abused like JJ said I’m pretty sure if someone had hypothetically asked Ian if anything is on the table for dreams in Sonic since they have no limits Ian would give a quick yes with no second thought.
Click to expand...
Which is why we need to assert some limit to it based on what it has shown. It's not like Ian's fully aware of the scope of what he says entails. It'd be like if someone said a character had infinite strength. We wouldn't assume that means the character is Tier 0 (Unless there's supportive evidence of course), we assume the bare minimum interpretation to be conservative and safe.
 
LaserPrecision said:
Which is why we need to assert some limit to it based on what it has shown. It's not like Ian's fully aware of the scope of what he says entails. It'd be like if someone said a character had infinite strength. We wouldn't assume that means the character is Tier 0 (Unless there's supportive evidence of course), we assume the bare minimum interpretation to be conservative and safe.
Click to expand...
That would be similar to an argument from ignorance, you can’t just set a limit to something based solely on what it has shown you need to also take into consider extra material and authorities/experts let alone that authority saying it has no limits. That example doesn’t work considering there’s different levels of infinity and limits to each infinity. The problem with assuming the bare minimum is it might not be accurate and could even be equated to a lowball that’s what causes people to ask goony questions to authorities on a fictional story so the bare minimum is exactly what’s at face value (for example a Dragon Ball goon asked Takao Koyama if Dragon Ball has infinite platonic transcendences which was very specific and was exactly what it was at face value and would’ve probably got answered with a yes had Koyama knew what a platonic idea was and he didn’t yet again Koyama himself said that he has no influence over Dragon Ball so it wouldn’t have mattered I guess).
 
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ThatBusyDude said:
That would be similar to an argument from ignorance, you can’t just set a limit to something based solely on what it has shown you need to also take into consider extra material and authorities/experts.
Click to expand...
No, not really. Argument from ignorance is assuming something is true or false because there's not evidence of the contrary.
The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary. Usually best described by, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
Click to expand...
I'm not making the assertion of anything being true or false. Dreams being "limitless" can mean many things.
ThatBusyDude said:
That example doesn’t work considering there’s different levels of infinity and limits to each infinity.
Click to expand...
It does work. Because you can interpret infinite to mean ANY one of those levels of infinity in set theory. We arbitrarily assume the baseline infinite because it is the SAFEST conclusion that can be drawn from it with no further context.
ThatBusyDude said:
The problem with assuming the bare minimum is it might not be accurate and could even be equated to a lowball that’s what causes people to ask goony questions to authorities on a fictional story so the bare minimum is exactly what’s at face value
Click to expand...
Lowballs aren't a bad thing you know? Lowballs and downplay are different. Lowball is a safe lower bound. Downplay would be intentionally trying to underestimate something despite the existence of evidence of the contrary. And assuming the absolute upper limit can be inaccurate too. So the argument of a lowball possibly being inaccurate doesn't hold much weight.
ThatBusyDude said:
(for example a Dragon Ball goon asked Takao Koyama if Dragon Ball has infinite platonic transcendences which was very specific and was exactly what it was at face value and would’ve probably got answered with a yes had Koyama knew what a platonic idea was and he didn’t yet again Koyama himself said that he has no influence over Dragon Ball so it wouldn’t have mattered I guess).
Click to expand...
Feel bad for the man. Getting harassed on twitter by power scaling fiends about stuff he doesn't entirely understand.
 
LaserPrecision said:
No, not really. Argument from ignorance is assuming something is true or false because there's not evidence of the contrary.

I'm not making the assertion of anything being true or false. Dreams being "limitless" can mean many things.

It does work. Because you can interpret infinite to mean ANY one of those levels of infinity in set theory. We arbitrarily assume the baseline infinite because it is the SAFEST conclusion that can be drawn from it with no further context.

Lowballs aren't a bad thing you know? Lowballs and downplay are different. Lowball is a safe lower bound. Downplay would be intentionally trying to underestimate something despite the existence of evidence of the contrary. And assuming the absolute upper limit can be inaccurate too. So the argument of a lowball possibly being inaccurate doesn't hold much weight.

Feel bad for the man. Getting harassed on twitter by power scaling fiends about stuff he doesn't entirely understand.
Click to expand...
Or asserting something doesn’t exist because it has not been seen. Assuming dreams have a limit because it hasn’t been properly expressed in the series that it has no limits even though an authority made it clear that it has no limits to what it can have.

Except like I already mentioned someone asked Ian Flynn whether dreams and Fourth Dimensional Space (which is a dream world of Illumina’s) in Sonic Shuffle can contain any and all sizes, ranges, scopes and concepts so it kind of does mean exactly that.

Not really there are various representations for different infinities in Set Theory, asserting that the infinity is one of those without the evidence would be an appeal to extremes.

Lowballs are the bare minimum things can be yes? That doesn’t make it accurate or fair, the fact is that you want the medium for a scale and not the bare minimum. Thing is this isn’t absolute upper limit, this is the medium all that’s being done here is we’re taking the definition of “no limits” and applying it to the context of what Ian Flynn said and then measuring it up with what else he agreed to, can it be abused like JJ said? Absolutely but at the same time this is what Ian implies.

He doesn’t understand that stuff at all I know he doesn’t lol. I feel bad for him too I hope he stops replying to those guys.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Or asserting something doesn’t exist because it has not been seen. Assuming dreams have a limit because it hasn’t been properly expressed in the series that it has no limits even though an authority made it clear that it has no limits to what it can have.

Except like I already mentioned someone asked Ian Flynn whether dreams and Fourth Dimensional Space (which is a dream world of Illumina’s) in Sonic Shuffle can contain any and all sizes, ranges, scopes and concepts so it kind of does mean exactly that.

Not really there are various representations for different infinities in Set Theory, asserting that the infinity is one of those without the evidence would be an appeal to extremes.

Lowballs are the bare minimum things can be yes? That doesn’t make it accurate or fair, the fact is that you want the medium for a scale and not the bare minimum. Thing is this isn’t absolute upper limit, this is the medium all that’s being done here is we’re taking the definition of “no limits” and applying it to the context of what Ian Flynn said and then measuring it up with what else he agreed to, can it be abused like JJ said? Absolutely but at the same time this is what Ian implies.

He doesn’t understand that stuff at all I know he doesn’t lol. I feel bad for him too I hope he stops replying to those guys.
Click to expand...

Which isn't argument from ignorance. Nothing is being asserted as true or false. In fact I agree to the statement being true as it was claimed by Ian. This is again an issue of limitless being able to mean different things and being able to be interpreted in different ways.

Yes, it can contain any of those things. But in the context of Sonic's world. It could encompass any concept, size, etc. that exists within Sonic. Not every theory, idea, concept, etc. that exists irl exists within Sonic's world. Extrapolating that it could contain any concept or idea not in the setting of Sonic is a stretch given Ian's answer comment was in reference to his world (pun not intended, but well welcomed).

So we're in agreement. We wouldn't extrapolate something like infinite to mean anything other than "baseline" infinity without any context.

No, low ends are a safe lowerbound. Baseline is the absolute minimum possible. And while its entirely possible for a lowend to not be accurate, the same could again be said for a mid end and high end. The reason I go with the low-end is because at the very least it CAN'T be wrong as there's evidence it can't possibly be lower. A mid-end and high-end can be wrong and doesn't have the same luxary as a low-end. Hitchen's razor in this case would make the low-end the safest pick as its based on the bare minimum interpretation of the statement, whereas the high-end makes the an extrapolation on Ian's statement to be correct. Thus It should be dismissed in favor of the low-end (though if a mid-end with less assumptions exist, that would also work). And yes, hard agree on people trying to abuse officials lack of knowledge in attempt to wank this (and many) verses.

Eh, if he's fine with answering, that's fine. It'd be preferable if they instead stopped. Not like it should really matter if an official agrees with something they have no knowledge on to satisfy the questioner.
 
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