Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[JJSliderman]

If there are no contradictions to the statements whatsoever, they can be used. If the dreams are stated to be universal in size, and there's nothing that disproves this otherwise, then POV doesn't matter, the statements are valid. Unless you have evidence that shows that dreams aren't universal in size, then your point is moot.

Fourth dimension space has constellations that Sonic can walk across in like 5 steps, the stars are clearly not always the size of real stars.

Not to mention Joe Schmoe on the street should not be capable of exactly mapping out a universe’s cosmology in a dream unless we can actually see evidence he knows the full scope of the universe beyond Google searches.

The statements aren’t even statements saying the dreams are universe sized, it’s just that people have wishes that mention the universe in them, and because of quotes saying that wishes correlate to dreams, it means the dreams are universe sized because they involve the universe, which is a big leap.

 

[ThatBusyDude]

Fourth dimension space has constellations that Sonic can walk across in like 5 steps, the stars are clearly not always the size of real stars.

Not to mention Joe Schmoe on the street should not be capable of exactly mapping out a universe’s cosmology in a dream unless we can actually see evidence he knows the full scope of the universe beyond Google searches.

That’s legitimately game mechanics.

Something like that would be enough to dream up a universe, you only need the basic concepts of a universe to think up one.

 

[JJSliderman]

If the dream worlds themselves were at least called universes then maybe I’d understand but, they aren’t.

You can call it game mechanics but it’s a part of the world that you can explore, and it’s very clearly not the size of a normal cosmology of its type.

 

[ThatBusyDude]

If the dream worlds themselves were at least called universes then maybe I’d understand but, they aren’t.

You can call it game mechanics but it’s a part of the world that you can explore, and it’s very clearly not the size of a normal cosmology of its type.

They are called Worlds which means Universes in Sonic.

It can just be design choice how do we know it’s a star and not just an effect of the space? NiGHTS has dreamworlds that are infinite in size and NiGHTS’ world should be parallel or related to Sonic’s so dreams should have the potential for infinite sizes.

 

[JJSliderman]

Are you using Lost World DLC, or are you using that WoG that states that however dream worlds work in NiGHTS is how they work in Sonic? Because the small constellations in 4D space are called constellations in official guides.

Worlds can also mean planets or separate spaces or some other equivalent that isn’t a universe.

 

[omegabronic]

They are called Worlds which means Universes in Sonic.

this is not true, world can meaning depends on context

 

[ThatBusyDude]

Are you using Lost World DLC, or are you using that WoG that states that however dream worlds work in NiGHTS is how they work in Sonic? Because the small constellations in 4D space are called constellations in official guides.

Worlds can also mean planets or separate spaces or some other equivalent that isn’t a universe.

Both essentially. Official guides? Show them to me it might be good for research purposes. Also Sonic characters crossing stars is not uncommon in Sonic, in Sonic 3D Blast Knuckles flies Sonic through several stars in a special stage and Tails casually crosses stars in his music maker game. I don’t think someone traveling through something quickly is a good testament to their size.

Worlds commonly refer to Universes in Sonic more often than not like in Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure.

 

[Theuser789]

I am going to be honest, I don't care if you believe it's right or wrong or whatever. That was what was accepted after years of arguing and evidence. So unless you actively try to undo that, I don't care about your opinion.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah, I guess I am trying to undo it, because:

-the dream worlds have no visual evidence to be anything beyond MSS to maybe galaxy level in scope,

-the dream world cosmology is inaccurate to real life cosmology when viewed up close in game,

-Eggman’s labyrinth isn’t stated to be infinite size, just infinitely expanding and folding according to his perception of infinity (meaning he arguably doesn’t have a 100% clear perception of the universe’s dimensions either), and if his perception is inaccurate there’s no way normal people would have accurate perceptions. If the argument is that Eggman should know the dimensions of the universe due to his IQ, that still doesn’t explain how everyone else is capable of doing so, but can also devolve into a slippery slope by saying “Eggman is aware of string theory and superdimensional aspects, so they should be part of Maginaryworld dreams”, etc. There’s nothing saying that the Precioustone can turn a dream involving the universe into a cosmologically accurate universe, considering even 4-D space arguably doesn’t match the universe 1-1 based on visuals.

-sources like dreams being infinite size or dreams encompassing the scope of past adventures are Ian Flynn WoG that isn’t accepted on here.

 

[ThatBusyDude]

Yeah, I guess I am trying to undo it, because:

-the dream worlds have no visual evidence to be anything beyond MSS to maybe galaxy level in scope,

-the dream world cosmology is inaccurate to real life cosmology when viewed up close in game,

-Eggman’s labyrinth isn’t stated to be infinite size, just infinitely expanding and folding according to his perception of infinity (meaning he arguably doesn’t have a 100% clear perception of the universe’s dimensions either), and if his perception is inaccurate there’s no way normal people would have accurate perceptions

-sources like dreams being infinite size or dreams encompassing the scope of past adventures are Ian Flynn WoG that isn’t accepted on here.

And why wouldn’t Ian Flynn’s statements be accepted if it doesn’t contradict the source material? It’s unreasonable tbh.

 

[JJSliderman]

If people want to use his statements then alright, I was under the impression they weren’t used here.

 

[ThatBusyDude]

If people want to use his statements then alright, I was under the impression they weren’t used here.

Well I do keep hearing that there’s a rule here about author statements but I never see it anywhere.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/great-villain-wasted-potential-mephiles-vs-gorr.150518/

 

[Alexander]

Well I do keep hearing that there’s a rule here about author statements but I never see it anywhere.

exactly

 

[LaserPrecision]

Then what are you trying to assert? You’re trying to apply a limit to something that is officially stated to have no limit which is at the very least headcanon.

So you’re saying we shouldn’t use obvious context clues and the definition of no limits?

My point wasn’t that you were contesting the validity of Ian’s statement, it’s that you were trying to apply a limit that doesn’t exist in context of Ian’s statement.

Dude I just showcased all concepts of sets, numbers, higher dimensions and etc existing in Sonic through Ian and Eitaro statements (which is High 1-B and up casually) you want confirmation that concepts in our world exist in Sonic’s then that’s fine but it would be on the verge of begging the question don’t you think? Plus Eitaro Toyoda believes that Sonic’s world can accept everything and that in Sonic’s world anything is possible and that his world is full of imagination and adventure.


That said it’s Occam’s Razor that all concepts that exist in our world exist in Sonic’s but even without that the concepts that have been stated to exist would already give MaginaryWorld a Tier 1-0 rating.

So what do you want us to do? Ask Ian or Eitaro if concepts and knowledge that exist in our world exist in Sonic’s? You know the answer will be yes.

If that was hyperbole he wouldn’t have agreed to using it to say all sizes, ranges, scopes and concepts exist within MaginaryWorld and dreams he would’ve said “I didn’t mean it literally.” For suggesting such a thing.

Alright.

I already explained what I was asserting: "Ian is correct, but we aren't interpreting his statement properly". That was all I was saying. We were choosing one specific interpretation when we could interpret it in various ways. And that's my issue. Hopefully that summarizes my point well enough.

When did I elude to ignoring all context? All I simply suggested was to interpret the statement in another way that makes sense.

The "limits" I'm arbitrarily placing is simply by interpreting it in a way Ian could've meant it. These limits arent coming out of nowhere. They're based on legitimate ways to interpret his claim. I'd agree with you if I was assigning limits left and right that bad nothing to do with what Ian said, but that isn't the case.

Ill look at that linked statement later as what I'm currently responding on I can't open twitter links. Also, no. I don't think it's begging the question because I want official confirmation of things that may not even exist in our world exist in Sonic's. All that is is awaiting official confirmation/awaiting proof before asserting a claim. Also, for some of these "confirmations" I'm willing to bet that when I look about it is only referring to a small portion of these concepts/ideas existing within the verse rather than the whole thing. But I'll try not to judge prematurely before I can even open the link.

No, Occam's razor doesn't dictate all concepts that exist irl exist in a fictional setting. This can be dismissed via Hitchen's razor anyway. No proof it exists in the world means it can similarly be dismissed without evidence. One can't assert they do or don't exist in the world without evidence supporting either claim.

The answer MAY be yes. But it's fun for people to waste their time or money to ask questions about things the person they're asking may not even know about at all and thus likely wouldn't be a credible source. So yea, ill await official confirmation and then those confirmations can be addressed case by case.

True, it likely was literal. Though his statement is again only in reference to Sonic's world. In which case the statement works perfectly.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Yeah but what are you going to do? People are still gonna goon and ask him questions.

I don't think that was the point of their comment. I think they were saying Ian is a horrible WoG and should be ignored if ideas aren't supported by the story or a higher up. That's just my guess tho as they said they enjoy people wasting money on Ian for powerscaling questions despite him admitting he's just gonna troll those people.

 

[Alexander]

I don't think that was the point of their comment. I think they were saying Ian is a horrible WoG and should be ignored if ideas aren't supported by the story or a higher up. That's just my guess tho as they said they enjoy people wasting money on Ian for powerscaling questions despite him admitting he's just gonna troll those people.

One question, do you even know how the hell "infinite possibilities" works?
infinite means no end,meaning there will be infinite amount of it,there will be infinite amount of dream worlds in maginaryworld,which is 2-A.

 

[ThatBusyDude]

I already explained what I was asserting: "Ian is correct, but we aren't interpreting his statement properly". That was all I was saying. We were choosing one specific interpretation when we could interpret it in various ways. And that's my issue. Hopefully that summarizes my point well enough.

When did I elude to ignoring all context? All I simply suggested was to interpret the statement in another way that makes sense.

The "limits" I'm arbitrarily placing is simply by interpreting it in a way Ian could've meant it. These limits arent coming out of nowhere. They're based on legitimate ways to interpret his claim. I'd agree with you if I was assigning limits left and right that bad nothing to do with what Ian said, but that isn't the case.

Ill look at that linked statement later as what I'm currently responding on I can't open twitter links. Also, no. I don't think it's begging the question because I want official confirmation of things that may not even exist in our world exist in Sonic's. All that is is awaiting official confirmation/awaiting proof before asserting a claim. Also, for some of these "confirmations" I'm willing to bet that when I look about it is only referring to a small portion of these concepts/ideas existing within the verse rather than the whole thing. But I'll try not to judge prematurely before I can even open the link.

No, Occam's razor doesn't dictate all concepts that exist irl exist in a fictional setting. This can be dismissed via Hitchen's razor anyway. No proof it exists in the world means it can similarly be dismissed without evidence. One can't assert they do or don't exist in the world without evidence supporting either claim.

The answer MAY be yes. But it's fun for people to waste their time or money to ask questions about things the person they're asking may not even know about at all and thus likely wouldn't be a credible source. So yea, ill await official confirmation and then those confirmations can be addressed case by case.

True, it likely was literal. Though his statement is again only in reference to Sonic's world. In which case the statement works perfectly.

Applying the context and the definition of no limits leads to the medium I was presenting.

By applying a limit where there is stated to be none? Please.

Someone could be reading our discussion right now and decide “hey lets ask Ian could concepts from our world exist in Sonic’s” or someone of even higher authority.

That gets dismissed via argument from ignorance, because you haven’t seen it stated that means it doesn’t exist that’s the conclusion you are stating, if the major concepts exists in Sonic according to statements made by authorities and experts then asserting the others exist isn’t out of the box, with the concepts already mentioned you can probably get Sonic’s cosmology to Tier 1-0 relatively easily with Ian and Eitaro statements.

The only thing an authority needs to do is understand something (even if they don’t have all the knowledge) to say that something exists in that world.

Can you prove it’s only in reference to Sonic’s world?

 

[ThatBusyDude]

One question, do you even know how the hell "infinite possibilities" works?
infinite means no end,meaning there will be infinite amount of it,there will be infinite amount of dream worlds in maginaryworld,which is 2-A.

People here have said infinite possibilities doesn’t mean they are real worlds even though Sonic’s world consistently has possibilities being worlds and Ian Flynn said Sonic’s world is compatible with modal realism making all those possibilities an actual world of some sort

 

[Alexander]

People here have said infinite possibilities doesn’t mean they real worlds even though Sonic’s world consistently has possibilities being worlds and Ian Flynn said Sonic’s world is compatible with modal realism making all those possibilities an actual world of some sort

actually it was something with "infinite possibilities in finite time is not infinite universes" which is on the level of "there are finite zones in the multiverse, and few zones are infinite, so there are finite zones"
It's like they forget that infinity has no limits.
and simply that there are infinite zones and universes, it would mean that there would be an infinite number of everything.
infinite zones of infinite size, the same with zones of finite size, seriously, is it that hard to know how infinity works?

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Doubt anyone still believes that. Though I'd suggest also linking the scan from Prima guide that stated during Solaris' second phase it started to attack desperately due to the beatdown it was receiving.

You'd be surprised

 

[LaserPrecision]

Applying the context and the definition of no limits leads to the medium I was presenting.

By applying a limit where there is stated to be none? Please.

Someone could be reading our discussion right now and decide “hey lets ask Ian could concepts from our world exist in Sonic’s” or someone of even higher authority.

That gets dismissed via argument from ignorance, because you haven’t seen it stated that means it doesn’t exist that’s the conclusion you are stating, if the major concepts exists in Sonic according to statements made by authorities and experts then asserting the others exist isn’t out of the box, with the concepts already mentioned you can probably get Sonic’s cosmology to Tier 1-0 relatively easily with Ian and Eitaro statements.

The only thing an authority needs to do is understand something (even if they don’t have all the knowledge) to say that something exists in that world.

Can you prove it’s only in reference to Sonic’s world?

The definition of limitless can mean multiple things as I had sent earlier (well, I assume it went through, I was tired when I sent it, so maybe I forgot to). It can mean no limits or a lot of. Even if we assume the former, it holds true within Sonic's world.

Sure, they could be reading this right now, let them ask their questions. It's fine.

Except its not argument from ignorance and now you're misusing it. I EXPLICITLY stated there's no proof that it does or DOESN'T exist. You're committing the proving non-existence fallacy by trying to make me prove the non-existence of something: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Proving-Non-Existence

You're also committing proof by example fallacy by assuming that since some examples of concepts existing in Sonic means EVERY concept exists in Sonic which is entirely irrational reasoning. In addition, you're using argument from ignorance fallacy yourself by assuming that since there's no proof they don't exit that they must exist.

Sure, some authors who don't care much about the lore of their story will say yes if random people tweet them random questions about cosmology if they know a little bit about what is being mentioned. I agree. Which is what I feel makes them less credible, similar to people harassing people who worked on Dragon Ball stuff for random stuff they don't care about or know little about.

It's an answer talking about Sonic's world to a question relating to Sonic's world. It's very much logical to assume it was in reference to Sonic's world when both the question and answer were about Sonic's world. I feel you'd need to be discord debate goon (which is understandable, its funny to do) or be someone who really cares about wanking Sonic to the highest level possible to think otherwise.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

He casually created a Low 2-C structure (the ad Infinium maze) just to conduct some badnik experiments in this free time. Not that I expect anyone to actually understand how someone with a 300iq perceives reality but go on I guess?

Chaos incarnate is this thread.

The ad infinitum is likely even Infinite Dimensional.

According to Flynn it is Infinite Dimensional and could've been created with the laws of physics in Sonic's world.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

The definition of limitless can mean multiple things as I had sent earlier (well, I assume it went through, I was tired when I sent it, so maybe I forgot to). It can mean no limits or a lot of. Even if we assume the former, it holds true within Sonic's world.

Sure, they could be reading this right now, let them ask their questions. It's fine.

Except its not argument from ignorance and now you're misusing it. I EXPLICITLY stated there's no proof that it does or DOESN'T exist. You're committing the proving non-existence fallacy by trying to make me prove the non-existence of something: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Proving-Non-Existence

You're also committing proof by example fallacy by assuming that since some examples of concepts existing in Sonic means EVERY concept exists in Sonic which is entirely irrational reasoning. In addition, you're using argument from ignorance fallacy yourself by assuming that since there's no proof they don't exit that they must exist.

Sure, some authors who don't care much about the lore of their story will say yes if random people tweet them random questions about cosmology if they know a little bit about what is being mentioned. I agree. Which is what I feel makes them less credible, similar to people harassing people who worked on Dragon Ball stuff for random stuff they don't care about or know little about.

It's an answer talking about Sonic's world to a question relating to Sonic's world. It's very much logical to assume it was in reference to Sonic's world when both the question and answer were about Sonic's world. I feel you'd need to be discord debate goon (which is understandable, its funny to do) or be someone who really cares about wanking Sonic to the highest level possible to think otherwise.

Is the Discord Goon Insult really necessary?
Can you guys not be assholes when debating for ANYTHING ever?

 

[Alexander]

Is the Discord Goon Insult really necessary?
Can you guys not be assholes when debating for ANYTHING ever?

No one can never be a pain when debating, I can despair, but always at least I don't try to throw such serious insults.

 

[Alexander]

Is the Discord Goon Insult really necessary?
Can you guys not be assholes when debating for ANYTHING ever?

also do you know any source to proof that sonic used his speed and not the time plates to time travel

 

[LaserPrecision]

Is the Discord Goon Insult really necessary?
Can you guys not be assholes when debating for ANYTHING ever?

Being a discord goon isn't an insult. I even admitted to it being a fun practice when done with friends. I do it myself. It's just not the best practice when in a formal setting where the problems being discussed are genuine. It feels disingenuous (which is what it is since discord cloning is about being disingenuous)

 

[LaserPrecision]

The ad infinitum is likely even Infinite Dimensional.

According to Flynn it is Infinite Dimensional and could've been created with the laws of physics in Sonic's world.

Wrong clip I think. Ian says nothing about infinite dimensional there. Just talks about Eggmans law warping device

 

[Alexander]

Being a discord goon isn't an insult. I even admitted to it being a fun practice when done with friends. I do it myself. It's just not the best practice when in a formal setting where the problems being discussed are genuine. It feels disingenuous (which is what it is since discord cloning is about being disingenuous)

again,can you answer me how infinite possibilities is invalidated by a finite amount of time?you know is still infinite,right?

 

[LaserPrecision]

also do you know any source to proof that sonic used his speed and not the time plates to time travel

If it helps, I have a translation of the Japanese manual that confirms Sknic time travels in CD by running at light speed.

 

[Alexander]

Wrong clip I think. Ian says nothing about infinite dimensional there. Just talks about Eggmans law warping device

there is a link about it and ian says ''sure''meaning he is agreeing with that idea of the maze working like that.

 

[Alexander]

If it helps, I have a translation of the Japanese manual that confirms Sknic time travels in CD by running at light speed.

Basically doing the shinra thing, immeasurable speed is moving beyond linear time (basically time travel) LS is just, well, LS, LS and immeasurable speed have nothing to do with it, beyond linear time has more to do with it than LS.

 

[LaserPrecision]

again,can you answer me how infinite possibilities is invalidated by a finite amount of time?you know is still infinite,right?

It's hard on mobile when talking with multiple people, so apologies. Infinite possibilities just means there's infinite possibilities that CAN be executed. Not that they have been. After an infinite amount of time has elapsed every possibility would have been enacted.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Basically doing the shinra thing, immeasurable speed is moving beyond linear time (basically time travel) LS is just, well, LS, LS and immeasurable speed have nothing to do with it, beyond linear time has more to do with it than LS.

I am aware. I was trying to help you out with your question. You asked if there was proof Sonic didn't need the time warp posts. I was telling you the JP guide confirmed Sonic can time travel by running at exactly the speed of light

 

[Alexander]

It's hard on mobile when talking with multiple people, so apologies. Infinite possibilities just means there's infinite possibilities that CAN be executed. Not that they have been. After an infinite amount of time has elapsed every possibility would have been enacted.

Yes of course, because apparently the ramifications of infinite possibilities are finite, despite the fact that dividing them would continue to be infinite.

 

[Alexander]

I am aware. I was trying to help you out with your question. You asked if there was proof Sonic didn't need the time warp posts. I was telling you the JP guide confirmed Sonic can time travel by running at exactly the speed of light

ok thank you

 

[LaserPrecision]

Yes of course, because apparently the ramifications of infinite possibilities are finite, despite the fact that dividing them would continue to be infinite.

This is like trying to argue there's no such thing as finite time because infinite time can eventually elapse. It makes zero sense. I should clarify, I'm not arguing Sonic's cosmology isn't 2-A or anything, I'm just clarifying on my beliefs regarding infinite POSSIBILITIES in general

 

[Alexander]

here it is,sonic cd Jp:

たり ワープ待機状態に走るとソニックが光の尾を引きます。 一定時間光速になるとワープパネルが点滅し、 保ちつづけ るとワープ開始です。
When Sonic runs at warp speed for a certain period of time, the warp panel will blink. When Sonic reaches light speed for a certain period of time, the warp panel will flash, and if it is maintained, warp will begin.
also the key words to take into account are ''warp''

 

[LaserPrecision]

And I'll be heading out now. Gotta do something irl, so Ill respond when I get back online

 

[Alexander]

This is like trying to argue there's no such thing as finite time because infinite time can eventually elapse. It makes zero sense. I should clarify, I'm not arguing Sonic's cosmology isn't 2-A or anything, I'm just clarifying on my beliefs regarding infinite POSSIBILITIES in general

Yes, how many verses have time being infinite and have things like ''infinite possibilities''.
because clearly having infinite possibilities but not having infinite time means that there are no finite possibilities.
even though they are not finite possibilities in finite time, that would only be if they are finite possibilities, but they are infinite, so it would be infinite anyway.