Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Ghengiroo115]

Just checked the boss fight on Youtube and Bonechill states that acquiring the Pure Heart/Luvbi would make him invincible. So it could either mean that others can use the Pure Hearts, or Bonechill was boasting.

I knew I remembered something along those lines. I don’t think there’s reason to believe him acquiring Luvbi’s power was an empty threat or anything, but it’s interesting how he describes it as becoming “invincible” considering how the Chaos Heart’s users are described the same way. I wonder if he’d actually be invulnerable (maybe there’s different layers of invulnerability like with the PM64 final boss) or if he’d just be really strong.


I guess none of that invulnerability stuff is all that relevant to the Sonic thread though lmao

 

[Omegabronic]

That's literally what a retcon is (definition:the act, practice, or result of changing an existing fictional narrative by introducing new information in a later work that recontextualizes previously established events, characters, etc.), retcons were never supposed to always make sense

In this case the "retcon" would be of the entire story, premisse and ending of CD as a whole.....you would need more to prove such a massive retcon of an entire game basically

 

[Starsprite53]

In this case the "retcon" would be of the entire story, premisse and ending of CD as a whole.....you would need more to prove such a massive retcon of an entire game basically

That's still what a retcon is so your extrapolating is irrelvent, Little Planet was shown to be freed in Sonic 4 and in its normal state, it just the Stardust Speedway was shown to have the bad future as its permanent one

 

[Omegabronic]

That's still what a retcon is so your extrapolating is irrelvent, Little Planet was shown to be freed in Sonic 4 and in its normal state, it just the Stardust Speedway was shown to have the bad future as its permanent one

And when that happens, Little Planet stays chained.......again, you need to retcon the entire premisse of CD for this to make sense......which would require far more evidence

 

[Starsprite53]

And when that happens, Little Planet stays chained.......again, you need to retcon the entire premisse of CD for this to make sense......which would require far more evidence

Which it wasn't in Sonic 4, at this point this is just copium and ignoring what a retcon is

 

[Omegabronic]

Which it wasn't in Sonic 4, at this point this is just copium and ignoring what a retcon is

No, it is me saying that there is no retcon to be had here, as the counter evidence, being the entire plot of CD, is of more relevance than a simple asset re-use, one has more priority, and requires less assumptions

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Is Sonic Mania Adventures canon? Metal Sonic only has his (pseudo) Super form render but is not treated as an amp or adressed anywhere else in the profile.

 

[Theuser789]

Mania Adventures is canon but that form only gives Metal an AP boost.

 

[Starsprite53]

No, it is me saying that there is no retcon to be had here, as the counter evidence, being the entire plot of CD, is of more relevance than a simple asset re-use, one has more priority, and requires less assumptions

It’s not just a simple asset re-use if they’re trying to maintain consistency with Sonic Gens. Stop pretending it’s a bigger deal than it really is. Sonic 4 shows Little Planet perfectly fine and unchained, with only Stardust Speedway eventually having the bad future. And even then, the future in Sonic has consistently been shown as nonlinear. Heck, some manual outright said 'the future is unwritten,' if my memory serves me right.
Does this contradict CD's established information? Then guess what, it’s a textbook retcon. nd honstly, it’s a minor one, nowhere near as convoluted or plot-breaking as what you see in other media (maybe that comparison will help you finally grasp what a retcon even is)
If anything, the real nonsense is Eggman wasting effort to travel to a timeline where he already won just to erase it, that makes zero sense with the plot and requires way more assumptions than any of this retcon talk

 

[Omegabronic]

Is Sonic Mania Adventures canon? Metal Sonic only has his (pseudo) Super form render but is not treated as an amp or adressed anywhere else in the profile.

Metal's profile is dogass lol

Will be worked and separated into eras in the future, it is in the plans

Alongside much from the verse...... many profiles are seriously outdated

 

[Omegabronic]

It’s not just a simple asset re-use if they’re trying to maintain consistency with Sonic Gens. Stop pretending it’s a bigger deal than it really is.

You speak as if you know that is the case........which is not true

Eggman even comfirms that he never won against Sonic ever in Gens, which would include CD, making Bad Future not happen by default

Sonic 4 shows Little Planet perfectly fine and unchained, with only Stardust Speedway eventually having the bad future.

which make the entire planet revert back to being chained again and Eggman having a Time Stone in the end, yes

And even then, the future in Sonic has consistently been shown as nonlinear. Heck, some manual outright said 'the future is unwritten,' if my memory serves me right.

Which is why Eggman wants the Time Stones, to make sure the future stays as he wants

Does this contradict CD's established information? Then guess what, it’s a textbook retcon.

no, it is asset re-use for 1 game that contradicts the entire narrative of CD and of Origins, as well as statements of Sonic generations

nd honstly, it’s a minor one, nowhere near as convoluted or plot-breaking as what you see in other media (maybe that comparison will help you finally grasp what a retcon even is)

i know what a retcon is, this one is very big, as it makes an entire game, COMPLETELY retconed out of existence, as the entire premisse of it relies on the element that it is supposedly being "retconned"

If anything, the real nonsense is Eggman wasting effort to travel to a timeline where he already won just to erase it that makes zero sense with the plot and requires way more assumptions than any of this retcon talk

He is time traveling to MAKE the future where he won, Sonic just also travels to stop him, the bad future only happens if Sonic's lets it

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Mania Adventures is canon but that form only gives Metal an AP boost.

Guess the profile is sorta outdated then. It's not adressed anywhere in the profile

 

[Starsprite53]

You speak as if you know that is the case........which is not true

Eggman even comfirms that he never won against Sonic ever in Gens, which would include CD, making Bad Future not happen by default

Neither do you, but mine takes less assumptions because they made the effort to use them

Eggman even comfirms that he never won against Sonic ever in Gens, which would include CD, making Bad Future not happen by default

Eggman can still lose with SS still having the bad future since all the other stages are saved + he lost the time stones

which make the entire planet revert back to being chained again and Eggman having a Time Stone in the end, yes

Which was retconned and still shows LP the same as it was on the good ending of Sonic CD

no, it is asset re-use for 1 game that contradicts the entire narrative of CD and of Origins, as well as statements of Sonic generations

Dude added origins just to make the argument longer (insert the spongebob list gif)
Entire narrative is when Sonic 4 shows the planet still being machanized and chain, and it doesn’t.

i know what a retcon is, this one is very big, as it makes an entire game, COMPLETELY retconed out of existence, as the entire premisse of it relies on the element that it is supposedly being "retconned"

No it doesn't + you're lying, it just retcons the bad ending, Sonic 4 still shows the planet saved and freed and everything like in CD simply one zone having the eventual bad future isn't a big retcon like you're trying to make

He is time traveling to MAKE the future where he won, Sonic just also travels to stop him, the bad future only happens if Sonic's lets it

Notice how that doesn't actually refute what I'm saying

 

[Omegabronic]

Neither do you, but mine takes less assumptions because they made the effort to use them

No it requires more

Mine = 1 assumption(it is just an aset re-use, nothing more)

Your's = 5(it retcons Sonic CD's story, Time Travel mechanic, Time Stones possesion by Eggman, Sonic Origins and Sonic Gen's statement by Eggman)

Your's requires more

Eggman can still lose with SS still having the bad future since all the other stages are saved + he lost the time stones

If the bad Future happens be still has the time stones by the end of CD......that is the entire point of the last cutscene

Which was retconned and still shows LP the same as it was on the good ending of Sonic CD

origins came AFTER Sonic 4, so it cannot be "retconned" by it, so no, at most, it re-retconed Sonic 4's design, if anything, cuz for me it is still clear asset re-use and nothing more

Dude added origins just to make the argument longer (insert the spongebob list gif)

No, i added cuz it a modern media they changed aspects of already, if this lore important thing was supposed to be different, they would have changed it....they didn't

Entire narrative is when Sonic 4 shows the planet still being machanized and chain, and it doesn’t.

It does cuz the entire narrative involves how the Planet has no scape if Eggman still has the Time Stones.......which he does if any bad future happens

No it doesn't + you're lying, it just retcons the bad ending, Sonic 4 still shows the planet saved and freed and everything like in CD simply one zone having the eventual bad future isn't a big retcon like you're trying to make

It also retcons the entire of the story, it is made very clear that any bad future leads Little Planet still being chained, no matter what, or what stage, as the Time Stones maintaining the bad future is the whole point Eggman wants them......so you are also arguing for the entire things that define that narrative to have their functions retconed, which thus makes the plot of the game nonsensical

Notice how that doesn't actually refute what I'm saying

it does, cuz the game makes it Clear that, as long as Eggman had the Time Stones, the future will never change, no matter what you do

 

[Angelzewolf]

I have come to realize Twitter is gonna be a pain for the next couple months. So many people are once again viewing Death Battle as absolute fact. Even some folks on Reddit are going "Marioverse is more powerful and completely stomps Sonicverse as shown by Death Battle."

The bonding phase is over. I'm now only seeing toxicity everywhere I go, lol.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I have come to realize Twitter is gonna be a pain for the next couple months. So many people are once again viewing Death Battle as absolute fact. Even some folks on Reddit are going "Marioverse is more powerful and completely stomps Sonicverse as shown by Death Battle."

The bonding phase is over. I'm now only seeing toxicity everywhere I go, lol.

Just point out that in that same episode, Death Battle considered Bowser and Eggman to be equal at their absolute peaks and they acknowledged scenarios where Eggman could've beaten Bowser. It's just that Bowser takes the win more times than not.

Plus are they just forgetting that Metal Sonic alone overwhelmed Bowser's army and Eggman proved formidable enough to reduce Bowser to Dry Bowser with the Death Egg beam? Like come on.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

I have come to realize Twitter is gonna be a pain for the next couple months. So many people are once again viewing Death Battle as absolute fact. Even some folks on Reddit are going "Marioverse is more powerful and completely stomps Sonicverse as shown by Death Battle."

The bonding phase is over. I'm now only seeing toxicity everywhere I go, lol.

Shit, the real heat is kicking in...

Well, at least Unknown Warrior is bringing out the good points.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Just point out that in that same episode, Death Battle considered Bowser and Eggman to be equal at their absolute peaks and they acknowledged scenarios where Eggman could've beaten Bowser. It's just that Bowser takes the win more times than not.

Plus are they just forgetting that Metal Sonic alone overwhelmed Bowser's army and Eggman proved formidable enough to reduce Bowser to Dry Bowser with the Death Egg beam? Like come on.

To be fair, considering how thinks the fights are one-sided in favor of Mario, complained about Sonic vs Mario and Tails vs Luigi being rigged for Sonic while ignoring Sonic vs Mario (2018), and the death battle is the messiah... I don't think logic quite works for him—

Shit, the real heat is kicking in...

Well, at least Unknown Warrior is bringing out the good points.

Not as bad as an art I saw that instantly made me go "wtf?"

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

To be fair, considering how thinks the fights are one-sided in favor of Mario, complained about Sonic vs Mario and Tails vs Luigi being rigged for Sonic while ignoring Sonic vs Mario (2018), and the death battle is the messiah... I don't think logic quite works for him—

Sounds like they weren't arguing off of good faith to begin with. Again: even in Eggman vs Bowser, Death Battle explicitly had Eggman and Bowser equal to each other at their absolute peaks and acknowledged scenarios where Eggman could've beaten Bowser.

Plus, Sonic vs Mario 1 and Luigi vs Tails are over a decade old each. And Mario vs Sonic 2 was from a couple years ago, so I don't know why people want to say opinions from years ago reflect DB's mentality today.

 

[JJSliderman]

Based on this episode it definitely seems like Mario would win if they redid that episode. I think they just generally have Mario > Sonic

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Based on this episode it definitely seems like Mario would win if they redid that episode. I think they just generally have Mario > Sonic

If it means anything, Ultraguy's recent Shadow blog has him acknowledging Erazor Djinn's feat of absorbing the Arabian Nights and causing it to begin disappearing as part of base form scaling. So there is a chance that Ultraguy, at least, acknowledges one or two universal high ends for base Sonic.

Not that it means that Sonic beats Mario, especially if DB thinks Mario edges out in speed and hax, but I think it's a lot closer compared to where it was years ago.

 

[JJSliderman]

That’s true but I don’t have much hope considering Ultra, also researched this episode

Sonic characters gotta pick up wins elsewhere I guess

 

[ShrekAnakin]

If it means anything, Ultraguy's recent Shadow blog has him acknowledging Erazor Djinn's feat of absorbing the Arabian Nights and causing it to begin disappearing as part of base form scaling. So there is a chance that Ultraguy, at least, acknowledges one or two universal high ends for base Sonic.

Not that it means that Sonic beats Mario, especially if DB thinks Mario edges out in speed and hax, but I think it's a lot closer compared to where it was years ago.

I'm at least glad to see progress in all this. They may not buy what the site has for everything, nor do they gotta. But this is nice, and I think the blog was well done. Down to the ever so controversial nod that maybe Shadow doesn't truly have friends, merely allies.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

That’s true but I don’t have much hope considering Ultra, also researched this episode

Sonic characters gotta pick up wins elsewhere I guess

Against Pokemon they'll succeed. And non-Super Dragon Ball.

 

[StekFence]

Mario edges out in speed

Rip

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I'm at least glad to see progress in all this. They may not buy what the site has for everything, nor do they gotta. But this is nice, and I think the blog was well done. Down to the ever so controversial nod that maybe Shadow doesn't truly have friends, merely allies.

They don't need to buy VSBW info. They just need to actually keep the integrity of research

 

[ShrekAnakin]

They don't need to buy VSBW info. They just need to actually keep the integrity of research

Shoulda worded my OG post a little better, but you are correct haha.

 

[JJSliderman]

Rip

Ultra pretty much has both as equal speed on the incalculable side (aka guess he didn’t use multipliers or anything like layered immeasurable for Sonic)

 

[Causalist]

Against Pokemon they'll succeed. And non-Super Dragon Ball.

Shadow vs Mewtwo rematch, Cell vs Metal Sonic, and maybe Chaos vs Kyogre if that happens. I could see some Sonic wins there, but at this point, it'll just feel hollow. Only a Sonic W against Goku could make me feel something, because that takes balls. I don't expect that to happen though. I've lost all hope in a decent Mario vs Sonic 3 too, unless Sonic gets new info that buffs him EVEN MORE blatantly

 

[Causalist]

Ultra pretty much has both as equal speed on the incalculable side (aka guess he didn’t use multipliers or anything like layered immeasurable for Sonic)

Of course he didn't. Even at my most optimistic, I still expected nothing less

 

[StekFence]

True, a 4th goku loss would take balls. As in death battle will need dragon balls to revive them once the fans are done with them.

 

[Causalist]

True, a 4th goku loss would take balls. As in death battle will need dragon balls to revive them once the fans are done with them.

Not only that, but the only saiyans who won a Death Battle are Vegeta (who later died), Vegito (who beat himself), and Broly. All the others died lol

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah after the Mewtwo vs Shadow cast I’m not confident.

 

[Alexander]

Not only that, but the only saiyans who won a Death Battle are Vegeta (who later died), Vegito (who beat himself), and Broly. All the others died lol

And Broly is worse because he was fighting against Hulk, Who is WAY STRONGER THAN HIM

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

True, a 4th goku loss would take balls. As in death battle will need dragon balls to revive them once the fans are done with them.

There's not a chance in hell DB is giving Sega Sonic a win against canon Goku.

 

[JJSliderman]

True, hell would freeze over.
That said I have seen potential buffs for individual universes in DB cuz of Daima, might need to wait and see.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Yeah. I feel like Game Sonic (as a verse) is only really matched up with Dragon Ball, Mario, and Megaman.

It seems Death Battle has fully settled on the notion of Marioverse > Sonicverse, they've already expressed thoughts that DBS stomps Game verse (and I'm not satisfied with any victories over the DBZ versions).

Mario and Dragon Ball are the big ones for Sonic, so it's a bit of a shame that it's basically just standard for Sonic to lose those on Death Battle. Megaman (excluding Wily vs Eggman) only had one episode, but it's decently old and with how they scale Sonic Cast now, I'm not sure what their opinion is on stuff Sonic vs Megaman match-ups with the obvious exception of Eggman vs Wily.

 

[JJSliderman]

Thinking about Generations again.

Is it fair to say that after Time Eater was killed the Eggmen were sent by an explosion through several dimensions before ending up back in White Space.

 

[Causalist]

Thinking about Generations again.

Is it fair to say that after Time Eater was killed the Eggmen were sent by an explosion through several dimensions before ending up back in White Space.

I think the death blast just BRFd them there

 

[JJSliderman]

Maybe…
Then again Eggman survives his super form machines blowing up all the time.