Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Omegabronic]

Unrelated, but if Sonic, Eggman, or any other character in the verse was to be erased from existance in a VS match, would they be sent to white space since that's where erased things go in the Sonic world?

No, unless the erasure is strong enough, White Space is beyond normal non existence, even already non existent things need to be erased to get to its level of nothingness

 

[Peptocoptr27]

No, unless the erasure is strong enough, White Space is beyond normal non existence, even already non existent things need to be erased to get to its level of nothingness

So what would happen if Bowser tried to erase Eggman from existance then? Would Eggman resist it or just get erased without being sent to White Space (which he can escape somehow)?

 

[JJSliderman]

I don’t think Eggman resists EE himself

 

[Omegabronic]

So what would happen if Bowser tried to erase Eggman from existance then? Would Eggman resist it or just get erased without being sent to White Space (which he can escape somehow)?

Huh, well if he doesn't resist it, which i don't remember if he does or not, then he wouldn't be sent to White Space and would just be erased

Even if he was sent to White Spacr via being erased, he would still be erased so it wouldn't matter much

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Well at least Metal Sonic resists it. He resists ******* everything.

Also, what do you guys think of the argument that the Dream Stone could empower itself with the Chaos Emeralds due to them being the super-substance of dreams?

 

[Theuser789]

Also, what do you guys think of the argument that the Dream Stone could empower itself with the Chaos Emeralds due to them being the super-substance of dreams?

Fanfiction scaling.

 

[RedReaper616]

Well at least Metal Sonic resists it. He resists ******* everything.

Also, what do you guys think of the argument that the Dream Stone could empower itself with the Chaos Emeralds due to them being the super-substance of dreams?

Personally I think it’s valid to consider, since the Dream Stone also blocks/doesn’t accept Nightmares, meaning it’s actually able to distinguish and empower itself on what a “Dream” even is. Presuming the statement is literal and the Emeralds are dreams materialized, there’s nothing incorrect here.

The issue is this doesn’t matter, because Eggman can harness the dreams of Bowser’s army (meaning both would be harnessing both Dream Cosmologies), the Emeralds can absorb that power back (ala Mind Control Ray), the Emeralds can absorb the power of other magical stones (Sonic Channel with the Sol Emeralds), and the Dream Stone’s “energy” is finite and it absorbs a finite quantity (it ran out and had to be refilled to max multiple times, the Emeralds’ are infinite in energy quantity, so there’s no reason to assume the Dream Stone could take the Emeralds’ full power or scale to their real strength off what they sap. Plus it can easily be argued the Emeralds can take the additional full finite energy of the Dream Stone).

So while correct, I think it’s not worth more than a stopgap.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Fanfiction scaling.

I mean, it's kind of similar to the argument that the Extractor could nullify the Wonder Flowers, which I agree with because the latter derive thier power from the Earth while the former drains the Earth of its power.

Likewise, the Dream Stone passively empowers itself with dreams while the Chaos Emeralds are the super-substance of dreams. The interaction between them is still a lot more ambigious though. It's interesting food for thought.

Personally I think it’s valid to consider, since the Dream Stone also blocks/doesn’t accept Nightmares, meaning it’s actually able to distinguish and empower itself on what a “Dream” even is. Presuming the statement is literal and the Emeralds are dreams materialized, there’s nothing incorrect here.

The issue is this doesn’t matter, because Eggman can harness the dreams of Bowser’s army (meaning both would be harnessing both Dream Cosmologies), the Emeralds can absorb that power back (ala Mind Control Ray), the Emeralds can absorb the power of other magical stones (Sonic Channel with the Sol Emeralds), and the Dream Stone’s “energy” is finite and it absorbs a finite quantity (it ran out and had to be refilled to max multiple times, the Emeralds’ are infinite in energy quantity, so there’s no reason to assume the Dream Stone could take the Emeralds’ full power or scale to their real strength off what they sap. Plus it can easily be argued the Emeralds can take the additional full finite energy of the Dream Stone).

So while correct, I think it’s not worth more than a stopgap.

I had typed my previous paragraph before your response, but this is a great point. This once again ends up playing in Eggman's favor, if anything. Although I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that the Emeralds can absorb that power back. When you say that Eggman can harness the dreams of Bowser's army, I assume you mean Nightmare Eggman.

 

[JJSliderman]

Tbf I don’t think the chaos emeralds are literally filled with dream energy, so much as their energy is what allows for the formation of dreams.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Tbf I don’t think the chaos emeralds are literally filled with dream energy, so much as their energy is what allows for the formation of dreams.

So, if anything, the Chaos Emeralds are more likely to drain the Dream Stone of its power than the reverse? Lol

 

[MysticMania]

So, if anything, the Chaos Emeralds are more likely to drain the Dream Stone of its power than the reverse? Lol

I definitely think so.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

I mean, it's kind of similar to the argument that the Extractor could nullify the Wonder Flowers, which I agree with because the latter derive thier power from the Earth while the former drains the Earth of its power.

Likewise, the Dream Stone passively empowers itself with dreams while the Chaos Emeralds are the super-substance of dreams. The interaction between them is still a lot more ambigious though. It's interesting food for thought.

It's very nuanced. It's like arguments on if Personas can truly interact with Stands or not and vise versa. It all comes down to how ok you are with these levels of verse equalization, and if it's truly equal or not.

 

[RedReaper616]

“The last time I fought you, I was told I didn't have the Soul to be Sonic. So lets see what yours looks like once I rip it from your howling carcass.” Neo Metal Sonic moments away from tearing Surge's immortal spirit from her struggling form.

“Death is a concept my immortal vessel cannot understand. However, I will insure that every moment of this battle shall be dedicated to my learning as I utterly tear you apart." Neo Metal Sonic as he grips his foe by the face, lifting them off the ground, choking their feeble organic life from their worthless bones.

Random quotes my brainworms thought up.

 

[MysticMania]

I have had Neo Metal on the head today

 

[Peptocoptr27]

It's very nuanced. It's like arguments on if Personas can truly interact with Stands or not and vise versa. It all comes down to how ok you are with these levels of verse equalization, and if it's truly equal or not.

At least in this case it doesn't change THAT much. It either helps Bowser a little or gives Eggman an even bigger edge

“The last time I fought you, I was told I didn't have the Soul to be Sonic. So lets see what yours looks like once I rip it from your howling carcass.” Neo Metal Sonic moments away from tearing Surge's immortal spirit from her struggling form.

“Death is a concept my immortal vessel cannot understand. However, I will insure that every moment of this battle shall be dedicated to my learning as I utterly tear you apart." Neo Metal Sonic as he grips his foe by the face, lifting them off the ground, choking their feeble organic life from their worthless bones.

Random quotes my brainworms thought up.

And we call Shadow the edgelord

 

[MysticMania]

This reminds me of the Chaos Controlling to the Ark conversation, earlier. Shadow has Emeralds at this point of his game, so, he also could have Chaos Controlled here, but chose to ride with Sonic (and I assume Tails due to the Cyclone). I feel Chaos Control does have the range to ploop from Earth to Ark, but, if it's in-character for Shadow to go "hell yeah rocket", or if SEGA or Sonic Team just likes him being in a rocket, then that would explain it. No need to blame Ian for something already chiseled into stone, you could say.

 

[RedReaper616]

At least in this case it doesn't change THAT much. It either helps Bowser a little or gives Eggman an even bigger edge

And we call Shadow the edgelord

I imagine Metal is the ultimate Edgelord. I mean he outright references the Bible in the most metal way possible: "Show me then! Look at me! I am no longer afraid of anything. I am the king of all things, who looks down on all proud creatures, and reigns over all proud beasts."

God's explanation of the creature Leviathan: "Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride."

He also isn't shy of making overtly dark ways he's going to win whenever he gets to talk. So in my head, his quotes are incredibly edgy in the most early 2000's (coolest) way possible.

 

[JJSliderman]

So, if anything, the Chaos Emeralds are more likely to drain the Dream Stone of its power than the reverse? Lol

If anything, Dream energy is < chaos energy, seeing as when Dream energy created super sonic, it was a shitty super sonic that could be damage by Eggman dropping a ten ton weight on him.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

This reminds me of the Chaos Controlling to the Ark conversation, earlier. Shadow has Emeralds at this point of his game, so, he also could have Chaos Controlled here, but chose to ride with Sonic (and I assume Tails due to the Cyclone). I feel Chaos Control does have the range to ploop from Earth to Ark, but, if it's in-character for Shadow to go "hell yeah rocket", or if SEGA or Sonic Team just likes him being in a rocket, then that would explain it. No need to blame Ian for something already chiseled into stone, you could say.

Honestly? I think the usage of the rocket is likely because, based off what we've been shown thus far, Shadow Generations seems to immediately start with the player speeding around Final Rush as soon as they get past the title screen.

So this scene doesn't bother me because it's just Shadow Generations' way of showing how Shadow was on the ARK at the start of the game.

 

[Executor_N0]

No need to blame Ian for something already chiseled into stone, you could say.

I don't think there was ever a problem if it was just a plot device, that is to be expected. Goes to the same point as to why Eggman could reshape the planet into separated dimensions with one emerald, dried up all seven to slice the planet into large pieces, or destroyed stars with no chaos emeralds at all. The power and abilities of the character will fluctuate as they always had, it's just that in the past this was just a plot hole that likely had no deeper thought from the writer at the time.

As far as I know, the reason could have been that they wanted to make the scene of Shadow slowing thinking about Maria on a rocket to the Ark, a scenario that couldn't happen with the same emotional beats as shown in the series if they just had Shadow chaos control to there.

At least to me, I'm perfectly fine with ignoring "what could have been as the most logical answer" if the emotional choice is good enough.

What really put Ian in a bad light, at least IMO, were his commentaries on the Bumblekast actively stating something that is known to not be true already a few times in the series. So accepting ignoring possibilities might be easier to do than actively denying a truth and using such denial as the explanation.

Ultimately to me, it doesn't matter how Shadow got there, I wouldn't trade the scene of Shadow thinking of a possible future with Maria for a 5 second scene of warping into the Ark from Episode 1 itself, sometimes lore will be bended or basically ignored to make for a good scene and I think every understands that, at least hope so. In the end, it's just the PoV of this long history of ignoring that stuff happened because "it makes hard to explain why they don't do that" that is a problem to me.

Of course, some people will just hate anything on him because they are haters, sadly I think they'll never change.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Every Shadow Dark Beginnings episode ranked from worst to best

Episode 3: I still loved it don't get me wrong. It has the best music of the 3, courtesy of the Casey the GOAT, but it had the least amount of stuff going on, and I still think them raiding the G.U.N base was a bit stupid. I wish I had more to say on it. Shadow's characterisation is good, and gives us a good heartfelt moment, but the same is true for every episode.

Episode 1: Mostly just threading old ground with this one. Makes sense since it's just Shadow re-visiting his past, and it's presented beautifully. So good to finally see Emerl again and the hand to hand choreography between him and Shadow is hype as ****, accompanied with good sound design to boot. Maria is clearly designed to be likable, and she succeeds well enough accross all episodes. I do wish she got to show off one flaw instead of being a perfect angel until she gets killed, but it's forgiveable considering we see her through Shadow's POV (not to mention her short screen time overall). It makes sense that Shadow would remember her as basically perfect.

Episode 2: Close call between this and episode 1, but this has to be my favorite just based on the amount of times I've rewatched it. It's Team Dark's dynamic that really does it for me. They're finally back to how they should be! They're actually friends. Rouge sounds good, and her sass is more charming than ever, and Omega is surprisingly really funny in a way that fits him perfectly. I wish he got to actually interact with Shadow though. Not even episode 3 really gives us that. The PEAK choreography makes up for it though. It actually portrays badniks as competant for once despite still getting bodied by Team Dark, which really sells the audience on their skill and power, something that even non-powerscallers appreciate for sure.