Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[RedReaper616]

Personally my idea was similar to Shake’s. Playing as Metal Sonic and copying the cast as you go through the game, but instead of it being more customizable-RPG, it plays more like Sonic Frontiers/DMC/GoW2018-R/Infamous or Prototype influence, giving every Copy its own skill tree for Metal to develop as he fights a crazy big bad, with his victories over the Sonic Cast and other individuals being either the pursuit to prove himself superior to Sonic or a mutual threat of some kind he has to overcome. EDIT: (Also, him “evolving” his copy is straight up him making it superior to the original user. Just like he is a hyper evolutionary artificial lifeform, improving fundamentally at every step, so too does Metal Sonic’s acquired abilities. So while Shadow may have Chaos Control {Time Stop/Slow}, Blast, Boost, and Spear, Metal’s copy has all that plus reversing and accelerating time, Chaos Constructs, more efficient utilization of Chaos Boost, and perhaps a Chaos Energy reinforced Black Shield. Or with psychokinesis, he develops far more into the mental aspects, gaining powers Silver doesn’t have, such as precognition through thoughts, mind reading, memory manipulation, etc.)

I also think it leads the way into increasingly creative platforming and puzzles. For example, Chaos Control is already being shown to be able to create interesting timing challenges for your Time Stop, but what about a Temporal Reverse? Or accelerate? Psychokinesis for lifting/reorienting objects or more conventional item puzzles. Speed for time challenges. Blaze’s flames for various burning mechanics, or maybe target practice.

Then you could have Metal’s stronger moves be combo-abilities. Flaming Chaos Spears, Psychokinesis-Reinforced Black Shield, Chaos Control Aided Boost, etc.

The game’s story would likely be about what makes Metal distinct from Sonic, his drive, why it exists beyond the code that comprises him, why being a hero doesn’t satisfy, why even the still beating heart of a madman in his cold, metallic hands leaves his immortal vessel hollow. Empty. Staring at the enemy before him, all he knows is that Death is inevitable for organic lifeforms, and he is its messenger.

EDIT: Metal retaining his powers probably wouldn’t be likely, but I don’t think it matters much when this one title can reinvigorate the perceived danger level Metal has and give tons of introspection, similar to Shadow 05. His potential is infinite. His AI limitless. His body eternal and ever changing. He IS the Ultimate Lifeform, the Blue Blur, the Psychic Hero, the Flame Prince, the Guardian of Chaos, and more. All else is inferior. He’s just trapped in a tragic cage of his own making, preventing his ascension that surpasses Godhood.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Spoilers for new Death Battle episode (this is barely Sonic related, but I wanted to share this with you guys specifically):

Omni-Man's victory is very based, and shows that Death Battle is very much not afraid to go against the most commonly accepted opinion in the community. People really thought Bardock was gonna STOMP, but they left out very important key details that Death Battle did account for. All of this is to say: I have more hope for Bowser vs Eggman. Important details for both combatants are less likely to be ignored than ever before, and Death Battle doesn't care about the common consensus. Both of these factors play in Eggman's favor. I'm now 51% to 55% sure Eggman WILL win (still don't want to get my hopes up any higher).

 

[Alexander]

Spoilers for new Death Battle episode (this is barely Sonic related, but I wanted to share this with you guys specifically):

Omni-Man's victory is very based, and shows that Death Battle is very much not afraid to go against the most commonly accepted opinion in the community. People really thought Bardock was gonna STOMP, but they left out very important key details that Death Battle did account for. All of this is to say: I have more hope for Bowser vs Eggman. Important details for both combatants are less likely to be ignored than ever before, and Death Battle doesn't care about the common consensus. Both of these factors play in Eggman's favor. I'm now 51% to 55% sure Eggman WILL win (still don't want to get my hopes up any higher).

Hope

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Spoilers for new Death Battle episode (this is barely Sonic related, but I wanted to share this with you guys specifically):

Omni-Man's victory is very based, and shows that Death Battle is very much not afraid to go against the most commonly accepted opinion in the community. People really thought Bardock was gonna STOMP, but they left out very important key details that Death Battle did account for. All of this is to say: I have more hope for Bowser vs Eggman. Important details for both combatants are less likely to be ignored than ever before, and Death Battle doesn't care about the common consensus. Both of these factors play in Eggman's favor. I'm now 51% to 55% sure Eggman WILL win (still don't want to get my hopes up any higher).

 

[Roun12]

they left out very important key details that Death Battle did account for..

Dude, I'd like an Eggman dub as much as any other Sonic fan but no; this episode was just a bunch of wank and misinformation to give Omniman the dub.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Spoilers for new Death Battle episode (this is barely Sonic related, but I wanted to share this with you guys specifically):

Omni-Man's victory is very based, and shows that Death Battle is very much not afraid to go against the most commonly accepted opinion in the community. People really thought Bardock was gonna STOMP, but they left out very important key details that Death Battle did account for. All of this is to say: I have more hope for Bowser vs Eggman. Important details for both combatants are less likely to be ignored than ever before, and Death Battle doesn't care about the common consensus. Both of these factors play in Eggman's favor. I'm now 51% to 55% sure Eggman WILL win (still don't want to get my hopes up any higher).

Potential BowsEgg Spoiler: This isn't to be all "Doom and Gloom", but I'm 95% sure Eggman is still losing his battle. The research is already complete and I'm not gonna throw out any names but a person or two I know well that associate with the researchers seems confident in that

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Dude, I'd like an Eggman dub as much as any other Sonic fan but no; this episode was just a bunch of wank and misinformation to give Omniman the dub.

Spoiler

Reading some criticism of the research, there are good points for sure, but ultimately I agree with the outcome regardless of how we got there. Omni-Man's power advantage is debatable, but so is Bardock's speed advantage. As long as Nolan wins in one of those two categories, his smart atoms, experience, and lifting strenght should allow him to take the win more often than not in my opinion. Won't elaborate here any further since this isn't a DB thread.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Potential BowsEgg Spoiler: This isn't to be all "Doom and Gloom", but I'm 95% sure Eggman is still losing his battle. The research is already complete and I'm not gonna throw out any names but a person or two I know well that associate with the researchers seems confident in that

Yikes. Ok, thanks for letting me know lol

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Potential BowsEgg Spoiler: This isn't to be all "Doom and Gloom", but I'm 95% sure Eggman is still losing his battle. The research is already complete and I'm not gonna throw out any names but a person or two I know well that associate with the researchers seems confident in that

I know who, but won't say.

 

[Snek]

Potential BowsEgg Spoiler: This isn't to be all "Doom and Gloom", but I'm 95% sure Eggman is still losing his battle. The research is already complete and I'm not gonna throw out any names but a person or two I know well that associate with the researchers seems confident in that

Where can I find the research?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Where can I find the research?

Just because it's finished doesn't mean it's out

 

[ShakeResounding]

On the bright side, Bowser winning is what 95% of the community expects. VSBW seems to be one of the rare exceptions

And I'm not nearly ego-centered enough to be angry about it; partly because I expect it of Death Battle and partly because I really don't care as long as both are given their due justice. For example, if Eggy DOES win, I wouldn't want THAT win to be some half-baked mockery either.

Regardless, let's try and avoid Death Battle talk if we can help it. There's an entire General for it, after all

 

[ShakeResounding]

Where can I find the research?

What Pepto said, unfortunately.

I'm certain it'll be available after the ep though.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

On the bright side, Bowser winning is what 95% of the community expects. VSBW seems to be one of the rare exceptions

And I'm not nearly ego-centered enough to be angry about it; partly because I expect it of Death Battle and partly because I really don't care as long as both are given their due justice. For example, if Eggy DOES win, I wouldn't want THAT win to be some half-baked mockery either.

Regardless, let's try and avoid Death Battle talk if we can help it. There's an entire General for it, after all

While I think DB talk should be saved elsewhere, I'm confident enough both will get their respect results aside. Maybe a meme here and there from the previews, but there's minor memes for both so it's not like one side over the other. But yeah, I agree with you pretty much.

 

[Theuser789]

On the bright side, Bowser winning is what 95% of the community expects. VSBW seems to be one of the rare exceptions

And I'm not nearly ego-centered enough to be angry about it; partly because I expect it of Death Battle and partly because I really don't care as long as both are given their due justice. For example, if Eggy DOES win, I wouldn't want THAT win to be some half-baked mockery either.

Regardless, let's try and avoid Death Battle talk if we can help it. There's an entire General for it, after all

You can't talk about Eggman there. I made everyone there mad with me whining lol

 

[RedReaper616]

Spoiler

Bardock’s edge in strength is pretty solid in my opinion. The issue solely is in the fact they utilized the wrong Frieza calc—DBS: Broly, not Toei Frieza, who Bardock ACTUALLY scales to, and ignored GT’s influence of Saiyan Biology within the Toei Canon, which has Saiyan Tails nullifying Energy Drain of the SSJ Forms. Combine that with Toei Goku’s trillions FTL feat, Nolan is the decidedly weaker but faster fighter (slower at first, but as Smart Atoms work through an infinite exponentially increasing speed glitch, he’d exceed Bardock) that has to fight against a foe with generally superior abilities (Zenkai Boosts in both recovering from damage and mid battle increases in power, Ki attacks granting a variety of offensive ranged and defensive maneuvers, with a Scouter that gives him constant updates on Nolan’s location, velocity, etc. that allows the Saiyan to prevent the speed exploit, Bardock should straight up have almost every advantage, with the exceptions being Experience and Stamina.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Spoiler

Bardock’s edge in strength is pretty solid in my opinion. The issue solely is in the fact they utilized the wrong Frieza calc—DBS: Broly, not Toei Frieza, who Bardock ACTUALLY scales to, and ignored GT’s influence of Saiyan Biology within the Toei Canon, which has Saiyan Tails nullifying Energy Drain of the SSJ Forms. Combine that with Toei Goku’s trillions FTL feat, Nolan is the decidedly weaker but faster fighter (slower at first, but as Smart Atoms work through an infinite exponentially increasing speed glitch, he’d exceed Bardock) that has to fight against a foe with generally superior abilities (Zenkai Boosts in both recovering from damage and mid battle increases in power, Ki attacks granting a variety of offensive ranged and defensive maneuvers, with a Scouter that gives him constant updates on Nolan’s location, velocity, etc. that allows the Saiyan to prevent the speed exploit, Bardock should straight up have almost every advantage, with the exceptions being Experience and Stamina.

Agree to disagree

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Agree to disagree

Based civil agreement on Omni-Man's AP.

 

[MysticMania]

In Omni-Man's analysis, Death Battle mentions the Roche Limit Factor. They use this to measure the planet, Viltrum. Since it has a ring, they determine it cannot be Earth-sized (as that would hold a ring only temporarily), and must be larger. With this, since the moon (or, one of the, at least) in Sonic is shown to have a ring-like-ring in Dark Beginnings episode 1, could this be used to estimate a size for that, maybe?

 

[ShrekAnakin]

In Omni-Man's analysis, Death Battle mentions the Roche Limit Factor. They use this to measure the planet, Viltrum. Since it has a ring, they determine it cannot be Earth-sized (as that would hold a ring only temporarily), and must be larger. With this, since the moon (or, one of the, at least) in Sonic is shown to have a ring-like-ring in Dark Beginnings episode 1, could this be used to estimate a size for that, maybe?

Depending on your standards, perhaps.

 

[Theuser789]

In Omni-Man's analysis, Death Battle mentions the Roche Limit Factor. They use this to measure the planet, Viltrum. Since it has a ring, they determine it cannot be Earth-sized (as that would hold a ring only temporarily), and must be larger. With this, since the moon (or, one of the, at least) in Sonic is shown to have a ring-like-ring in Dark Beginnings episode 1, could this be used to estimate a size for that, maybe?

Interesting idea...

 

[ShakeResounding]

With this, since the moon (or, one of the, at least) in Sonic is shown to have a ring-like-ring in Dark Beginnings episode 1, could this be used to estimate a size for that, maybe?

Nah. I think most of the science behind it is the debris being unable to break out of the Moon's GBE or something.

The evidence in TailsTube about 2 separate species across Sonic's Earth, especially including the South Island calc and regarding it as being undetectable from a satellite view of the planet, would be enough imo. However, Sonic's Earth will likely never be considered as larger than the standard Earth anywhere but here tbh.

 

[Alexander]

On the bright side, Bowser winning is what 95% of the community expects. VSBW seems to be one of the rare exceptions

And I'm not nearly ego-centered enough to be angry about it; partly because I expect it of Death Battle and partly because I really don't care as long as both are given their due justice. For example, if Eggy DOES win, I wouldn't want THAT win to be some half-baked mockery either.

Regardless, let's try and avoid Death Battle talk if we can help it. There's an entire General for it, after all

Ficción sin limites too

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

Potential BowsEgg Spoiler: This isn't to be all "Doom and Gloom", but I'm 95% sure Eggman is still losing his battle. The research is already complete and I'm not gonna throw out any names but a person or two I know well that associate with the researchers seems confident in that

Damn...

I just hope it's at least well researched...

 

[Starsprite53]

I really don't care with either of them wins (because, it's just a usual animated fight in the end), My only problem would be with how these two are going to be represented

 

[Omegabronic]

With this, since the moon (or, one of the, at least) in Sonic is shown to have a ring-like-ring in Dark Beginnings episode 1, could this be used to estimate a size for that, maybe?

huh.........maybe? would need to create a QnA Thread to ask about it

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Damn...

I just hope it's at least well researched...

I'm gonna be honest. I've seen every pro-Bowser argument under the sun, from Reddit, to Youtube, to full-on prediction blogs, and I still can't think of a well researched way to make Bowser beat Eggman. If you were to put a gun to my head and threaten to pull the trigger if I don't prove that Bowser beats Eggman, I would try to advocate for outerversal Bowser (yes, that's a thing), because I know that nothing else would work. As long as you give both equal lee-way, Eggman has the stat trinity in the bag, but if you're generous and make thier stats equal, Eggman still has better hax and counters to Bowser's hax. He can even re-take the stat trinity with massive speed amps, power cores, Chaos Emeralds, and size manipulation. If you want to be EVEN MORE generous to Bowser and give him more win conditions via better hax, Eggman STILL has more means to pull off his fewer win conditions via Sage's simulations, information analysis, and abillity to aquire Bowser's memories via brain hacking, as well as Eggman's greater intellect and control over time. The fact that Bowser and his troops can't actually overcome the Egg Field without a Chaos Emerald (and that Eggman knows that by now) is truly the nail in the coffin.

 

[MysticMania]

I do feel Eggman wins, myself. Smarter, superior stats, Metal Virus, Metal Virus Arc, better hax, etc etc. I could go into it, but it would just be an essay of the Eggman Empire basically

 

[Theuser789]

I'm gonna be honest. I've seen every pro-Bowser argument under the sun, from Reddit, to Youtube, to full-on prediction blogs, and I still can't think of a well researched way to make Bowser beat Eggman. If you were to put a gun to my head and threaten to pull the trigger if I don't prove that Bowser beats Eggman, I would try to advocate for outerversal Bowser (yes, that's a thing), because I know that nothing else would work. As long as you give both equal lee-way, Eggman has the stat trinity in the bag, but if you're generous and make thier stats equal, Eggman still has better hax and counters to Bowser's hax. He can even re-take the stat trinity with massive speed amps, power cores, Chaos Emeralds, and size manipulation. If you want to be EVEN MORE generous to Bowser and give him more win conditions via better hax, Eggman STILL has more means to pull off his fewer win conditions via Sage's simulations, information analysis, and abillity to aquire Bowser's memories via brain hacking, as well as Eggman's greater intellect and control over time. The fact that Bowser and his troops can't actually overcome the Egg Field without a Chaos Emerald (and that Eggman knows that by now) is truly the nail in the coffin.

But did you ever think about Kamek stealing the Ruby and Bowser transmutating everyone?/j

 

[MysticMania]

I like the thought of Kamek stealing stuff from Eggman and his response being "oh this guys ******* evil evil hell no, metal sonic we're out of here"

 

[ShakeResounding]

"Lord Eggman, give me 2 Power Cores and 1 Ring. This is Bowser and his entire army I'm up against." - Neo Metal Sonic, probably.

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

Hmm,didn't Ultraguy say Eggman gets anything he created only? Does this include augmentation or not? That means he doesn't get Time Eater or the enhanced Ruby. Maybe he does legit lose,but only if his arsenal is explicitly nerfed.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Hmm,didn't Ultraguy say Eggman gets anything he created only?

One-time macguffins are apparently included i.e. Time Stones, Final Egg Blaster, Phantom Ruby, Altered Ruby Prototype, Chaos Emeralds, etc.

 

[Theuser789]

Larry will be stronger than everything except the super mechs btw.

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

I have a feeling they're gonna bring up the fact that his highest tier mechs required two pilots,too(Time Eater,Egg Salamander,Egg Wizard,etc.). Yeah,I think he's gonna get deliberately nerfed.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

But did you ever think about Kamek stealing the Ruby and Bowser transmutating everyone?/j

It's so funny that Bowser's most prominant arguments rely on stealing Eggman's shit, and speculating from there. It's basically an admission that Eggman's arsenal is better, but it's not like Bowser can use any of the good stuff, especially not the PR or Master Emerald.

Larry will be stronger than everything except the super mechs btw.

Bro stop

 

[Theuser789]

Bro stop

It's true. Base Mario characters will be universal while base characters will be star or smth.

 

[MysticMania]

Metal copying the sun's Bio-Data and, once again, winning via betrayal (he accidentally melted the armies)

 

[JJSliderman]

Eggman stealing the star rod doesn’t count though, only Bowser can steal stuff.

 

[Theuser789]

Eggman stealing the star rod doesn’t count though, only Bowser can steal stuff.

Eggman is a passive NPC.