Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Ghengiroo115]

At worst the Egg Wizard would still be Low 1-C since the Precioustone (and thus the PotS) scale to the 5-D Maginaryworld

Yup, so not too big a downgrade.

Isn't the Jeweled Scepter literally the Master Emerald of the Sol Dimension

Obviously I have no clue as I never played the game, but if it is then the Egg Wizard wouldn’t be using its full power anyway since if it was then it never should’ve lost.

As far as I remember egg wizard dosent have lore scaling it to 6D but super sonic was apparently using the full power of the Emeralds against it but I don't remember what the exact statement was.

If such a statement does exist then it might be able to keep its 1-C rating.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

There is that one statement about Eggman wanting the Emeralds for their “unimaginable power” which I assume comes from Advance 1 (it’s from one of the Advance games and I’m presuming 1 since there’s no Cream shown in the scan), but idk if that’s enough to go Metal Overlord > Precioustone. It is currently used on the Chaos Emerald’s profile but seemingly only to justify baseline Super forms > Eggman machines (which makes no sense to me as it’s more logically referring to the Emeralds’ peak but eh).

 

[Snek]

Ya even with that statement you could just say we don't know what eggman thinks about the precious stone.

 

[Causalist]

There is that one statement about Eggman wanting the Emeralds for their “unimaginable power” which I assume comes from Advance 1 (it’s from one of the Advance games and I’m presuming 1 since there’s no Cream shown in the scan), but idk if that’s enough to go Metal Overlord > Precioustone. It is currently used on the Chaos Emerald’s profile but seemingly only to justify baseline Super forms > Eggman machines (which makes no sense to me as it’s more logically referring to the Emeralds’ peak but eh).

BASED. Currently working on downgrades for the baseline power of Super forms. Thier peak power would remain the same, but thier absolute minimum should just upscale from the agreed upon baseline multipliers for 7 individual emeralds.

As for the Egg Wizard, "At least Low 1-C" makes sense to me. If Eggman remembered the events of 06, it would get to keep its 1-C rating though.

 

[Snek]

Man I still hate that we accepted multipliers for holding chaos emeralds.

 

[RedReaper616]

OK I’m sorry for bringing this back, but I just had two genuine questions pop into my mind involving the likely event we downgrade Metal Overlord so I’m bringing them up before I forget:

1. During the events of Heroes, would there be any good reason for Eggman to believe the power of the Chaos Emeralds exceeded the Precioustone? If so then could Metal Overlord potentially still be Low 1-C?
2. If Eggman’s knowledge of the Emeralds is being called into question, then would this affect the Egg Wizard’s scaling? Or is there some extra context I’m missing? I haven’t played Rush Adventure so yeah lol

As an aside, I do think calling Eggman’s knowledge of the Emeralds’ true capabilities into question is a good point. If not for some of the additional context around Metal Overlord and (apparently) Perfect Chaos I would honestly be fully for a downgrade to Low 2-C. 6-D base cast is still funny tho

Eggman should know, though, because as mentioned before, Sonic Channel states Perfect Chaos used the "FULL POWER OF THE CHAOS EMERALDS." Which Eggman witnessed, and as such should be aware of and use as a data point in relevance to Metal.

 

[Alexander]

BASED. Currently working on downgrades for the baseline power of Super forms. Thier peak power would remain the same, but thier absolute minimum should just upscale from the agreed upon baseline multipliers for 7 individual emeralds.

As for the Egg Wizard, "At least Low 1-C" makes sense to me. If Eggman remembered the events of 06, it would get to keep its 1-C rating though.

There are levels to the chaos emeralds?i thought it was something more about that the full power was the super mode and you cannot have a minimum power for the super form

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Ghengiroo115 Remember; the Chaos Emeralds are stated to be the supersubstance of dreams like 3 different times in JP and ENG manuals, with the power of the Precioustone allowing Sonic a Super State, so Chaos Emeralds should directly supercede the Precioustone. I think that would make the Egg Wizard Low 1-C, since he doesn't remember 06. Might warrant a Low 1-C end for Super Sonic and Burning Blaze specifically (as they were the only Supers to participate in the fight and I'm unsure if granting an additional end to every Super is something we wanna do.

Man, based Sonic Team making Dreams a weirdly recurring idea in the Sonic franchise.

 

[RedReaper616]

There are levels to the chaos emeralds?i thought it was something more about that the full power was the super mode and you cannot have a minimum power for the super form

As per Starline, the energy the Chaos Emeralds grant to their user varies based on circumstance, and as we know from SA2, that power is further at variance due to what your "Heart" is (as the "power is enriched by the Heart.") This means that any use of the Chaos Emeralds as a power source can't be quantified beyond the direct scaling of that object/person and/or statements about it, (like Sonic Channel saying Perfect Chaos used the "FULL POWER" of the Emeralds, or Frontiers saying Cyber Super Sonic is "The TRUE DORMANT POWER" of the Emeralds and Super Sonic as a whole).

 

[Causalist]

There are levels to the chaos emeralds?i thought it was something more about that the full power was the super mode and you cannot have a minimum power for the super form

Dude. Have you even seen Sonic's profile?

 

[CloverDragon03]

@Ghengiroo115 Remember; the Chaos Emeralds are stated to be the supersubstance of dreams like 3 different times in JP and ENG manuals, with the power of the Precioustone allowing Sonic a Super State, so Chaos Emeralds should directly supercede the Precioustone. I think that would make the Egg Wizard Low 1-C, since he doesn't remember 06. Might warrant a Low 1-C end for Super Sonic and Burning Blaze specifically (as they were the only Supers to participate in the fight and I'm unsure if granting an additional end to every Super is something we wanna do.

Man, based Sonic Team making Dreams a weirdly recurring idea in the Sonic franchise.

Don't think they need something specific like that, the Low 1-C rating just falls under the Varies rating being between Low 2-C an 1-C. You can add it to the justification, though, if you'd like

 

[Snek]

Eggman should know, though, because as mentioned before, Sonic Channel states Perfect Chaos used the "FULL POWER OF THE CHAOS EMERALDS.

You know I don't have a super power scaling oriented argument for the perfect chaos statement but still I think chaos being that strong is just awkward. Mainly because the chaos emeralds are still these super coveted items to the point where sonic and friends go after them to resolve the metal virus or defeat the titans yet I'm supposed to believe that everyone has surpassed their full power. I don't know man maybe sonic channel was just tripping with that one not gonna lie.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

You know I don't have a super power scaling oriented argument for the perfect chaos statement but still I think chaos being that strong is just awkward. Mainly because the chaos emeralds are still these super coveted items to the point where sonic and friends go after them to resolve the metal virus or defeat the titans yet I'm supposed to believe that everyone has surpassed their full power. I don't know man maybe sonic channel was just tripping with that one not gonna lie.

Or, y'know, it may just be an outlier

 

[RedReaper616]

You know I don't have a super power scaling oriented argument for the perfect chaos statement but still I think chaos being that strong is just awkward. Mainly because the chaos emeralds are still these super coveted items to the point where sonic and friends go after them to resolve the metal virus or defeat the titans yet I'm supposed to believe that everyone has surpassed their full power. I don't know man maybe sonic channel was just tripping with that one not gonna lie.

I mean, I feel like that's a distinctly different (but related) question.

Does Eggman know the full capacity of the Emeralds? Allegedly, via Sonic Channel.

Should that data point (Sonic Channel) be used? Debate as needed.

I'm just pointing out how based on the info we have, Eggman should have full awareness of the Emeralds' power. Whether or not it's accepted is another matter.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

Could I have the link to where Sonic Channel says Perfect Chaos uses the full power of the Emeralds? If nothing else, it sounds useful for upscaling Perfect Chaos.

 

[JJSliderman]

スーパーソニック

ソニックがカオスエメラルドのパワーを得て変身した姿。 全身が黄金に輝き、通常のソニックをはるかに越える能力を有す。ただし変身中は極端にエネルギーを消費するため、短時間しかその姿を維持することができない。 空を飛ぶことも可能。 名称 スー...

sonic.sega.jp

Super Sonic

NameSuper SonicFlying speedSublight speed Sonic’s transformed form, powered by the Chaos Emeralds. His entire body glows gold, and his abilities far exceed those of ordinary Sonic. However, h…

browniehideout.wordpress.com

There ya go

 

[JJSliderman]

You know I don't have a super power scaling oriented argument for the perfect chaos statement but still I think chaos being that strong is just awkward. Mainly because the chaos emeralds are still these super coveted items to the point where sonic and friends go after them to resolve the metal virus or defeat the titans yet I'm supposed to believe that everyone has surpassed their full power. I don't know man maybe sonic channel was just tripping with that one not gonna lie.

I think there is a distinct different between the full power of the Emeralds, and the full power of super forms. Because the super form is proportionally growing alongside the base form, there could easily be levels of 6-D for super forms

 

[RedReaper616]

Huh. Didn't know Eggman had a Gravity Weapon that could manipulate the Gravity of Earth's Rotation.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

スーパーソニック

ソニックがカオスエメラルドのパワーを得て変身した姿。 全身が黄金に輝き、通常のソニックをはるかに越える能力を有す。ただし変身中は極端にエネルギーを消費するため、短時間しかその姿を維持することができない。 空を飛ぶことも可能。 名称 スー...

sonic.sega.jp

Super Sonic

NameSuper SonicFlying speedSublight speed Sonic’s transformed form, powered by the Chaos Emeralds. His entire body glows gold, and his abilities far exceed those of ordinary Sonic. However, h…

browniehideout.wordpress.com

There ya go

Thank you

 

[Theuser789]

Huh. Didn't know Eggman had a Gravity Weapon that could manipulate the Gravity of Earth's Rotation.

I don't think we ever added anything from that Sonic Channel storyline, sadly. Even though it's canon.

 

[RedReaper616]

Oh? So what you're saying is I can cover all these Sonic Channel stories for a CRT...

 

[Theuser789]

Yep!

 

[SJG13673]

Man, Game Sonic powerscaling is so unfun

 

[ShakeResounding]

Man, Game Sonic powerscaling is so unfun

Meh, I look at it compared to many other verses that are either too niche or too strong to find matches and appreciate Sonic more. Archie is where it begins to get unfun for me personally

 

[Snek]

Archie is where it begins to get unfun for me personally

Fate hax gg ez win.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Speaking of archie, which base sonic wins at the moment?

 

[Snek]

Speaking of archie, which base sonic wins at the moment?

To be honest that topic alone could probably be a 30 page discussion thread which is code for idk. Although game sonic probably has a better scaling chain than his archie counterpart by this point. So there's that

 

[BlastX]

I think STC Sonic if you count STCO and Exit:Sonic has better base scaling.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

I think STC Sonic if you count STCO and Exit:Sonic has better base scaling.

Who? I was talking between pre-archie genesis Sonic and modern Sonic

 

[ShakeResounding]

Speaking of archie, which base sonic wins at the moment?

Tough to say.

Archie has 7-D fatehax (albeit he can still be incapped), scales to >1000x baseline Low 2-C feat (via Chaos Emeralds surviving the epicenter of 2 Pre-Great Harmony Super Forms colliding, which are 1000x above Base characters), has passive Damage Reduction, and those Power Rings can be versatile in terms of hax.

Game has so much more versatility it's scary (whether Item Boxes, Wisp Capsules, Power-Ups, Caliburn, Shahra's Ring, etc.), has several of the same techniques Archie does but better (Spin Dash, Super Peel Out, and Boost can all reverse a blitz and have actual values instead of being vague amps) has his own Rings that offer 6-D Damage Transferal, seems to be far superior in combat skill, and has an uncounterable power source in Cyber Corruption due to Archie lacking Information Type 2.

The fact it's even debatable means the Games have come a long way.

 

[SJG13673]

The day Al and Cal scale above Archie Super Sonic is the day I will be happy

 

[Causalist]

Tough to say.

Archie has 7-D fatehax (albeit he can still be incapped), scales to >1000x baseline Low 2-C feat (via Chaos Emeralds surviving the epicenter of 2 Pre-Great Harmony Super Forms colliding, which are 1000x above Base characters), has passive Damage Reduction, and those Power Rings can be versatile in terms of hax.

Game has so much more versatility it's scary (whether Item Boxes, Wisp Capsules, Power-Ups, Caliburn, Shahra's Ring, etc.), has several of the same techniques Archie does but better (Spin Dash, Super Peel Out, and Boost can all reverse a blitz and have actual values instead of being vague amps) has his own Rings that offer 6-D Damage Transferal, seems to be far superior in combat skill, and has an uncounterable power source in Cyber Corruption due to Archie lacking Information Type 2.

The fact it's even debatable means the Games have come a long way.

In a base to base fight, game Sonic wins via incap since he's 2-C while Archie is stuck in Low 2-C. In a fight to the death, Archie wins because fate hax. He also still wins the Super form showdown for the same reason + infinitely higher AP

 

[ShakeResounding]

In a base to base fight, game Sonic wins via incap since he's 2-C while Archie is stuck in Low 2-C.

Ah yeah I forget 2-C is around the corner

 

[BlastX]

Who? I was talking between pre-archie genesis Sonic and modern Sonic

You said which Base Sonic (of which there are many) and didn't specify Game.

 

[Brogeefrong]

The day Al and Cal scale above Archie Super Sonic is the day I will be happy

That would probably murder 1-A sabic

Tough to say.

Archie has 7-D fatehax (albeit he can still be incapped), scales to >1000x baseline Low 2-C feat (via Chaos Emeralds surviving the epicenter of 2 Pre-Great Harmony Super Forms colliding, which are 1000x above Base characters), has passive Damage Reduction, and those Power Rings can be versatile in terms of hax.

Game has so much more versatility it's scary (whether Item Boxes, Wisp Capsules, Power-Ups, Caliburn, Shahra's Ring, etc.), has several of the same techniques Archie does but better (Spin Dash, Super Peel Out, and Boost can all reverse a blitz and have actual values instead of being vague amps) has his own Rings that offer 6-D Damage Transferal, seems to be far superior in combat skill, and has an uncounterable power source in Cyber Corruption due to Archie lacking Information Type 2.

The fact it's even debatable means the Games have come a long way.

Dont game's have a really really big scaling chain on speed
like more then a trillion times baseline Infinite speed

 

[JJSliderman]

Dont game's have a really really big scaling chain on speed
like more then a trillion times baseline Infinite speed

Not since 346x boost got neutered.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Not since 346x boost got neutered.

Iirc they still reached a Sextillion times FTL before Infinite, from where their current finite speed key is which is 2 Billion FTL

 

[Causalist]

That would probably murder 1-A sabic

Dont game's have a really really big scaling chain on speed
like more then a trillion times baseline Infinite speed

Archie arguably scales to a more impressive infinite speed. While game can cross an infinite space and massively upscales from that, Archie scales to the ultimate annihilator, which can cross an infinite amount of infinite spaces. I know VSBW standards probably don't consider that more impressive, but I say that's non-sense

 

[JJSliderman]

Archie arguably scales to a more impressive infinite speed. While game can cross an infinite space and massively upscales from that, Archie scales to the ultimate annihilator, which can cross an infinite amount of infinite spaces. I know VSBW standards probably don't consider that more impressive, but I say that's non-sense

Someday, people will come around to base Sonic traveling to the center of 4-D space as layered infinite speed, and we can get infinite speed Adventure era

 

[Alexander]

Someday, people will come around to base Sonic traveling to the center of 4-D space as layered infinite speed, and we can get infinite speed Adventure era

FSL:we have immeasurable speed Classic Sonic