Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Alexander]

Yes, he exists “in” those segments of time. Just like how isolated events also exist in the past or future but are not the totality of the past or future. If you exist inside of something, you by definition are not the totality of that thing.

except that it doesn't even make sense that he exists in segments of those time points, if Eggman literally doesn't say that he exists in the past in the form of "he exists 50 years ago" or some crap like that

 

[JJSliderman]

Everything Eggman says can still be true with Solaris in 3 points. Solaris existing in the past/present/future, Solaris being unable to be defeated at a single point in time, Solaris being defeated at all time points he exists, etc. It’s just that Solaris existing in all points in time requires more proof due to being a bigger level of positive claiming.

 

[Alexander]

It’s just that Solaris existing in all points in time requires more proof due to being a bigger level of positive claiming.

and you are literally assuming yourself that it only exists at certain points, there is literally no proof of that either.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yes but there is reason to believe he’s only at 3 points (the fact Solaris could only be defeated at all points he existed when a 3rd character existed for the fight, the fact we have 3 confirmed time points visited in the game and only 3, and the fact time as a construct was not destroyed immediately when Solaris first came into existence, despite Solaris’s powers at minimum existing wherever Solaris is)

 

[Alexander]

Yes but there is reason to believe he’s only at 3 points (the fact Solaris could only be defeated at all points he existed when a 3rd character existed for the fight, the fact we have 3 confirmed time points visited in the game and only 3, and the fact time as a construct was not destroyed immediately when Solaris first came into existence, despite Solaris’s powers at minimum existing wherever Solaris is)

ah

 

[JJSliderman]

Ngl the main thing propping up Solaris to be at all points in time for me is the possibility the temporal omnipresent aspect of the Master Emerald seeped into the Chaos Emeralds and Solaris, otherwise Solaris could be at 3 points and still do everything it set out to do and was hyped up to be.

 

[Alexander]

Ngl the main thing propping up Solaris to be at all points in time for me is the possibility the temporal omnipresent aspect of the Master Emerald seeped into the Chaos Emeralds and Solaris, otherwise Solaris could be at 3 points and still do everything it set out to do and was hyped up to be.

then do a CTR for that

 

[JJSliderman]

I feel like I’d need to set aside some time for that, the last time I tried it didn’t go that well.

 

[Omegabronic]

Ngl the main thing propping up Solaris to be at all points in time for me is the possibility the temporal omnipresent aspect of the Master Emerald seeped into the Chaos Emeralds

this is utter head canon to its max

and Solaris, otherwise Solaris could be at 3 points and still do everything it set out to do and was hyped up to be.

"coulds" without proof are not bonds to ANY revision whatsoever

 

[JJSliderman]

Then explain why Solaris being at all points in time is, more valid.

Because the main argument is it exists in the past, present, and future, even though existing “in” them as opposed to “across” them implies it doesn’t cover the total scope of said timeframes.

 

[Omegabronic]

Then explain why Solaris being at all points in time is, more valid.

because it is the simpler explanation that requires no extra assumptions

Because the main argument is it exists in the past, present, and future, even though existing “in” them as opposed to “across” them implies it doesn’t cover the total scope of said timeframes.

"in" and "across" changes nothing in what it is being said

 

[JJSliderman]

How is Solaris existing across all of time a simpler explanation when it requires Solaris to be capable of more than what he needs for 3 time points?

And no, across would actually mean Solaris covers the full scope of time, while in refers more to being encompassed by time

 

[Omegabronic]

How is Solaris existing across all of time a simpler explanation when it requires Solaris to be capable of more than what he needs for 3 time points?

because it requires less assumptions, that being none

And no, across would actually mean Solaris covers the full scope of time, while in refers more to being encompassed by time

future and past are not set points in time, therefore "in" already covers this automatically

 

[Brogeefrong]

Voting for Cyber Super Sonic and StarFall Super Sonic

I put super sonic 2 so voting for that

 

[Lenyo456]

Vote for what to call the new Sonic:
-Cyber Super Sonic: 3
-StarFall Super Sonic: 1
-Super Sonic 2: 3

 

[Eseseso]

Vote for what to call the new Sonic:
-Cyber Super Sonic: 1
-StarFall Super Sonic: 1
-Super Sonic 2: 1

I vote for Cyber Super Sonic but barely.

 

[JJSliderman]

because it requires less assumptions, that being none

You have to assume Solaris is across all of time despite it just being said he exists in the past, present, and future, you have to assume the hedgehogs have the ability to hit across all of time instead of just striking Solaris in their respective era and the damage appearing in the other eras because it’s all one body Solaris has, and you have to assume the hedgehogs are dodging Solaris’s attacks even when they’re arguably occurring in eras of time completely unrelated to said hedgehogs (like 200 years in the future or 10 years in the past).

future and past are not set points in time, therefore "in" already covers this automatically

“In” the future can still refer to a set point in time, so no, it’s not automatic.

 

[Omegabronic]

You have to assume Solaris is across all of time despite it just being said he exists in the past, present, and future

aka all of time

you have to assume the hedgehogs have the ability to hit across all of time instead of just striking Solaris in their respective era

that is a different situation not related to the statement in question being argued

and the damage appearing in the other eras because it’s all one body Solaris has

that is how temporal omnipressence works yes

, and you have to assume the hedgehogs are dodging Solaris’s attacks even when they’re arguably occurring in eras of time completely unrelated to said hedgehogs (like 200 years in the future or 10 years in the past).

drop the specific time eras headcanon please, and again, temporal omnirpresent attacks, they are happening accross all of time equally

“In” the future can still refer to a set point in time, so no, it’s not automatic.

good word "CAN" you affirm possibilities as facts, so present proof for them to be facts instead of your own opinion

 

[SuperStar]

 

[Theuser789]

Ian Flynn says-

Stopped reading here.

 

[JJSliderman]

aka all of time

No, existing in the past can just mean, you exist in the past without being in all of the past. You have to prove it means Solaris exists across every single second of time simultaneously.

drop the specific time eras headcanon please, and again, temporal omnirpresent attacks, they are happening accross all of time equally

Which, you still have to prove Solaris is across all of time.

good word "CAN" you affirm possibilities as facts, so present proof for them to be facts instead of your own opinion

Maybe if proof was presented demonstrating why Solaris is across all of time; I at least tried to offer some explanation for that and you shot it down.

 

[Omegabronic]

No, existing in the past can just mean, you exist in the past without being in all of the past.

that is one very specific way of interpreting it yes "it is a super dimensional lifeform that exists in the past, present and future at the same time, defeating it here and now, wouldn't mean anything" doesn't seem to imply only specific points in times to me at all, dunno why it does to you

You have to prove it means Solaris exists across every single second of time simultaneously.

stop with the shift in burden of proof, it doesn't say "in a point of the present, past and future" it says "in the present, past and future" past and future are NOT specific points in time, they are entire periods of all that will and has come

Which, you still have to prove Solaris is across all of time.

i don't need to prove anything when the statement is clear cut in what it is meaning, you are the one with the specific interpretation you are trying to dictate as truth, therefore you are the one who needs to prove things here, you did the exact same thing in your other thread you know? you affirmed things and yet asked for people to prove to YOU why a thing is instead of showing any counter proof to support your claims, that is not good argumentation

Maybe if proof was presented demonstrating why Solaris is across all of time; I at least tried to offer some explanation for that and you shot it down.

an INTERPRETATION that has no proof or evidence for it other then "but it COULD BE THIS" without anything that would make that more likely than taking the statement as face value, you know? the SIMPLER way to interpret things?

 

[JJSliderman]

that is one very specific way of interpreting it yes "it is a super dimensional lifeform that exists in the past, present and future at the same time, defeating it here and now, wouldn't mean anything" doesn't seem to imply only specific points in times to me at all, dunno why it does to you

The thing is, time is a dimension much like the main 3 dimensions, you can exist as a 4D construct and not have the 4D component be the maximum possible value along that dimension, if Solaris existed in 3 points in time it would still be 4D. Nothing else about the statement implies that it exists in every moment in time, if Solaris was in the past and future as well as the present; then it still couldn’t be defeated in the present alone and would require attacks in the future and past, attacks that come from the other super characters.

stop with the shift in burden of proof, it doesn't say "in a point of the present, past and future" it says "in the present, past and future" past and future are NOT specific points in time, they are entire periods of all that will and has come

Again, “in the past” means that you exist in the past. Nothing more. To go beyond that and say it occupies the totality of the past requires the burden of proof.

i don't need to prove anything when the statement is clear cut in what it is meaning, you are the one with the specific interpretation you are trying to dictate as truth, therefore you are the one who needs to prove things here, you did the exact same thing in your other thread you know? you affirmed things and yet asked for people to prove to YOU why a thing is instead of showing any counter proof to support your claims, that is not good argumentation

Yes, because there is flat out no concrete evidence Solaris is across all of time, therefore I claim that argument is wrong.

an INTERPRETATION that has no proof or evidence for it other then "but it COULD BE THIS" without anything that would make that more likely than taking the statement as face value, you know? the SIMPLER way to interpret things?

“Solaris is at point A, B, and C in time” takes much less effort than Solaris existing at every point in time, 3 vs infinity points is a big gap and the former requires less speculation because you don’t have to extrapolate quotes to mean Solaris exists across the totality of time.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Snip

You already lost the argument the second you tried debating the biggest (bias) devil's advocate of the Sonicverse here on the wiki, instead of clogging up the general discussion with frivolous repeated arguments where clearly neither side will concede I suggest taking it to your walls/dms. Anymore continued talk about Solaris' omnipresence here (a subject that has been talked about at length for multiple years) and I will seriously consider proposing a discussion rule to shut it once and for all.

 

[Omegabronic]

You already lost the argument the second you tried debating the biggest (bias) devil's advocate of the Sonicverse here on the wiki, instead of clogging up the general discussion with frivolous repeated arguments where clearly neither side will concede I suggest taking it to your walls/dms. Anymore continued talk about Solaris' omnipresence here (a subject that has been talked about at length for multiple years) and I will seriously consider proposing a discussion rule to shut it once and for all.

please do that

 

[JJSliderman]

Fine, I’ll make a CRT because I feel pretty strongly about this.

 

[Alexander]

Fine, I’ll make a CRT because I feel pretty strongly about this.

it will be like the other 20 CRT.

 

[MysticMania]

I can't take Super Duper seriously. Super Sonic (Gee willikers!!)

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Fine, I’ll make a CRT because I feel pretty strongly about this.

it will be like the other 20 CRT.

If it does use the same or similar rejected arguments of past CRTs, I won't be surprised if a topic ban for @JJSliderman will be suggested too but whatever I'm just tired of the circular arguments (classic dirty debate tactics to bore and/or frustrate the supporters into giving up, I've seen it enough times on the Wiki to see the patterns).

please do that

Tbh I was half joking but if other Sonic scholars feel the same way as I do then I can get the ball rolling after the current main Sonic CRTs are concluded.

 

[Theuser789]

You already lost the argument the second you tried debating the biggest (bias) devil's advocate of the Sonicverse here on the wiki, instead of clogging up the general discussion with frivolous repeated arguments where clearly neither side will concede I suggest taking it to your walls/dms. Anymore continued talk about Solaris' omnipresence here (a subject that has been talked about at length for multiple years) and I will seriously consider proposing a discussion rule to shut it once and for all.

Discussion rule or a temporary topic ban are the only things that can probably stop JJ from spamming CRTs

Fine, I’ll make a CRT because I feel pretty strongly about this.

Please don't make a CRT if it's just based on "this could be" or "what if it's". Nobody wants another thread.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Fine, I’ll make a CRT because I feel pretty strongly about this.

Please don't...

 

[HenshinIntervention]

So, like... there's NO WAY people no longer accept The End > Time Eater and Solaris, right? Sonic literally went further beyond... though I wouldn't be surprised if they still viewed her as weaker.

STILL. Super excited, wish there was a more dramatic change for Sonic but uh... Supreme looks a lot more menacing now.

Ian just recently said Solaris is the strongest and The End was numba 2

 

[JJSliderman]

If it’s debatable, it’s debatable, I don’t think I should be banned because of it.

Why is the one interpretation of Solaris considered the right one even when it takes just as much extrapolation as the one I go with.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ian just recently said Solaris is the strongest and The End was numba 2

Ian continues to be unreliable for power scaling

 

[CloverDragon03]

If it’s debatable, it’s debatable, I don’t think I should be banned because of it.

I don't think that's the only reason why from what I can gather

Why is the one interpretation of Solaris considered the right one even when it takes just as much extrapolation as the one I go with.

Your interpretation relies on "could be's" and "what if's" rather than truly concrete information. Solaris exists across all of past, present, and future. That is all. This topic seems to have been discussed several times over, so I highly doubt anyone wants to revisit it, especially with the same points that have already been rejected

 

[JJSliderman]

See, people keep adding the “all” part when that was never stated. It just says he exists in the past, present, and future.

 

[CloverDragon03]

See, people keep adding the “all” part when that was never stated. It just says he exists in the past, present, and future.

The Present: The here and now
The Past: Everything before the present
The Future: Everything after the present

Yeah no this is textbook Temporal Omnipresence. You're creating a case of "well it could've just been [x amount of time] in the past/future" that has never even remotely been hinted at.

 

[JJSliderman]

If you time traveled back to the past, you’d exist in the past. Does that mean you exist along the entirety of the past? No.
Same with the future and the present.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If you time traveled back to the past, you’d exist in the past. Does that mean you exist along the entirety of the past? No.
Same with the future and the present.

Prove that the omnipresence is limited