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Sonic Forces: Infinite AP Revision (Cue Infinite's Theme)

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I also think that more reasoning could be added to Infinite's Low 2-C rating, such as being powered up by the Phantom Ruby, who can create universes such as the Egg Reverie Zone in Sonic Mania and Null Space
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Really hoping there hasn't already been a bajillion threads on this subject.

Okay so I'm gonna preface this by saying I know absolutely jack shit about Sonic scaling, but even so, I found this and just found myself flabbergasted given that this should be a pretty clear power scaling statement. Given the title, you might understand where this is going...

So, Infinite. Cool design, mid af as a character. A tragedy indeed. But that doesn't mean he ain't strong, and my god is he stronger than we thought. Let me explain, as the evidence is twofold:
  1. Infinite is verbatim stated to be Sonic's strongest enemy yet. Now, idk if we scale Sonic games by the order they're released in or by some other metric, but regardless, this would mean a massive upgrade for Infinite. It seems like, from what I know, we accept that Sonic remembers the events of 06, meaning this could mean a rating of 2-B, possibly 2-A for Infinite for being stronger than the Egg Wizard and Solaris.
  2. Despite his previous inventions' defeats, Dr. Eggman calls Infinite his unstoppable creation, and in the Japanese version of Forces he refers to Infinite as "this ultimate weapon" (don't mind the captions, I grabbed this scan from somewhere else)
With this being said, I think Infinite should be rated significantly higher than he currently is. For my money, he should be 2-B, possibly 2-A via scaling above the likes of Solaris and the Egg Wizard. That's my take. Hopefully I don't get blasted from every angle for this.

And with that... DISCUSS!

Edit: First off, I removed the tallies because genuinely I can't be bothered with counting anymore. But more importantly...

THE PROPOSAL HAS CHANGED

2-B to 2-A Infinite has been pretty solidly rejected for the most part, so I'm proposing Low 2-C Infinite due to my second point. Namely, Infinite would scale above previous inventions that Eggman made himself, which would include the Super Egg Robot, which is Low 2-C. His justification would be like this:

Universe level+ (Stated to be Dr. Eggman's ultimate weapon, making him stronger than any previous inventions the doctor made on his own, which would include the Super Egg Robot)
Click to expand...
(I am referring to low 2-C Sonic) This is the bare minimum, while 2-B, 2-A Sonic sounds like a jump in this wiki in particular. I wouldn't mind this, actually I think I know a little more evidence that supports Infinite being above past machines like Super Egg Robo.
 
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Eggman has probably never hyped up a Machine or power up as much as the ruby (save for the emeralds)
Infinite says that he has limitless power and that he was unstoppable

Eggman outright says that he is making the prototypes to be above every single defeat he suffered at the hands of Sonic, aka he is amping them to be enough power to kill Sonic this time.

In the eng version, he claims it's a thousandfold more powerful but in the JP sub he claims a trillion fold
Also brags about how he doesn't need the M.E. anymore


Should be consistently Uni+ alongside those supporting scans of the ruby creating rifts in dimensions and breaking the boundaries of such.
 
Hiryu-Z said:
I also think that more reasoning could be added to Infinite's Low 2-C rating, such as being powered up by the Phantom Ruby, who can create universes such as the Egg Reverie Zone in Sonic Mania and Null Space
Click to expand...
That's the complete Phantom Ruby while Infinite only has the finalized prototype afaik
 
The_Fastest_Savior said:
Eggman has probably never hyped up a Machine or power up as much as the ruby (save for the emeralds)
Infinite says that he has limitless power and that he was unstoppable

Eggman outright says that he is making the prototypes to be above every single defeat he suffered at the hands of Sonic, aka he is amping them to be enough power to kill Sonic this time.

In the eng version, he claims it's a thousandfold more powerful but in the JP sub he claims a trillion fold
Also brags about how he doesn't need the M.E. anymore


Should be consistently Uni+ alongside those supporting scans of the ruby creating rifts in dimensions and breaking the boundaries of such.
Click to expand...
I apologize for the repetitive comments but I forgot to add one more thing
The stuff I mentioned before is even more consistent with Infinite creating Null Space, which obviously is regarded as a world and has multiple statements making it seem infinite in size (apologizes for this scan, best one I found for this specific statement sadly)

Eggman implies that if Sonic wanted to, he could wander in Null Space for "Eternity" implying an infinite space.

And for all it's worth, Eitaro Toyoda believes that Null Space is "different" from other dimensions and scientific stuff isn't applicable to its nothingness

For reference Eitaro observes the world of Sonic so cosmological stuff like Null Space should be fine to use from him.
Also I'm pretty sure in some bumblekasts Ian refers to Eitaro as his boss and wouldn't argue against him on anything, and for better or for worse, Ian is a lore manager.
 
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The_Fastest_Savior said:
I apologize for the repetitive comments but I forgot to add one more thing
The stuff I mentioned before is even more consistent with Infinite creating Null Space, which obviously is regarded as a world and has multiple statements making it seem infinite in size (apologizes for this scan, best one I found for this specific statement sadly)

And for all that's worth, Eitaro Toyoda believes that Null Space is "different" from other dimensions and scientific stuff isn't applicable to its nothingness

For reference Eitaro observes the world of Sonic so cosmological stuff like Null Space should be fine to use from him.
Also I'm pretty sure in some bumblekasts Ian refers to Eitaro as his boss and wouldn't argue against him on anything, and for better or for worse, Ian is a lore manager.
Click to expand...
Eh. Looks like a leading question and it being on twitter and not official Q&A.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Eh. Looks like a leading question and it being on twitter and not official Q&A.
Click to expand...

Still should count a little, again it's just insight and thoughts from people who oversee the world of Sonic. Even discounting his beliefs Null Space is still just an infinite void that is separate from other dimensions, perhaps even unbound.
 
The_Fastest_Savior said:
I apologize

I apologize for the repetitive comments but I forgot to add one more thing
The stuff I mentioned before is even more consistent with Infinite creating Null Space, which obviously is regarded as a world and has multiple statements making it seem infinite in size (apologizes for this scan, best one I found for this specific statement sadly)

And for all that's worth, Eitaro Toyoda believes that Null Space is "different" from other dimensions and scientific stuff isn't applicable to its nothingness

For reference Eitaro observes the world of Sonic so cosmological stuff like Null Space should be fine to use from him
Click to expand...
I can't find view the source from Eitaro Toyoda says that he believes Null Space is "different" from other dimensions.

But I wanted to add that

Aaron Webber and Eitaro Toyoda work with Sonic and SEGA of Japan

Eitaro Toyoda manages the scripts and world views of the Sonic The Hedgehog series



So their words are pretty much reliable.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
I can't find view the source from Eitaro Toyoda says that he believes Null Space is "different" from other dimensions.

But I wanted to add that

Aaron Webber and Eitaro Toyoda work with Sonic and SEGA of Japan

Eitaro Toyoda manages the scripts and world views of the Sonic The Hedgehog series



So their words are pretty much reliable.
Click to expand...

Also, even if it's a leading question... Eitaro has quite literally all the power in the world to just deny whatever that user said... so it's not like he was pressured to agree with them, right?
 
CloverDragon03 said:
That's the complete Phantom Ruby while Infinite only has the finalized prototype afaik
Click to expand...
I think I need to find a source that fixes all this confusing "who had what?" ruby stuff

Because Infinite had the finalized prototype ruby, which was >>>> Every previous defeat which would still upscale Infinite.

The real phantom ruby was overclocked in the end, which is why it suddenly surpassed the prototypes, which took the real one's data and were amped by Eggman to surpass previous defeats.
 
Theuser789 said:
This thread is already too cluttered. If you want to make a tier 2 upgrade, it would probably be better to make another thread where you can fully elaborate on all your points.
Click to expand...
This.

The entire premise was just Infinite being 2-A (and was rejected completely, thank God), so if the discussion changed to base forms being Low 2-C, then yeah, it's for another CRT.
 
The evidence still isn't good for a tier 2 upgrade. If you want to be stubborn, I will reject for the same reasons.
 
I agree with User, that it's probably best to close the thread and make a new one if the topic shifts to a Low 2-C upgrade for Infinite.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
I... personally feel a few of the disagrees are similar incredulous arguments that plagued Pokemon for so many years on why they couldn't scale to Legendaries. Just because it feels impossible it must be impossible sort of line of reasoning.
Click to expand...
Yes sir. There’s no actual reasoning as to why Infinite doesn’t scale above Time Eater, Egg Wizard and the like, it’s just taking “well he wasn’t explicitly stated to be Super Sonic level” so he can’t be Super Sonic level or “He lost to the base cast” so he’s base cast level and dialing it up to 11 with circular reasoning and ad nauseam until everyone who vouches for Tier 2 Infinite (and those who scale to him) gives up.

It would be one thing if the extra material was the only thing that implied Infinite was superior to previous foes but you have the game damn near implying the same exact thing using Eggman’s robots and defeats as a measuring stick but still there’s somehow denial that Infinite gets to that tier because he lost to the base cast despite said cast being heavily implied to have made a power leap and went from being cannon fodder for Infinite to taking down armies worth of clones of him? This is the same clones of the Infinite that cooked up an infinite place separate from all dimensions?

Infinite should definitely be Tier 2 at this point and I don’t see any valid reasons why he shouldn’t scale there.
 
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The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
I... personally feel a few of the disagrees are similar incredulous arguments that plagued Pokemon for so many years on why they couldn't scale to Legendaries. Just because it feels impossible it must be impossible sort of line of reasoning.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Much like Pokemon, I feel a lot of it is built on preconceived notions that people have and adamantly refuse to change no matter what

If the proposition for Low 2-C Infinite is straying too far from the original purpose of the thread, though, then it can be closed and I'll probably make a new thread eventually
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Agreed. Much like Pokemon, I feel a lot of it is built on preconceived notions that people have and adamantly refuse to change no matter what

If the proposition for Low 2-C Infinite is straying too far from the original purpose of the thread, though, then it can be closed and I'll probably make a new thread eventually
Click to expand...
If you wish then sure but I don’t think that’s necessary.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Yes sir. There’s no actual reasoning as to why Infinite doesn’t scale above Time Eater, Egg Wizard and the like, it’s just taking “well he wasn’t explicitly stated to be Super Sonic level” so he can’t be Super Sonic level or “He lost to the base cast” so he’s base cast level and dialing it up to 11 with circular reasoning and ad nauseam until everyone who vouches for Tier 2 Infinite (and those who scale to him) gives up.

It would be one thing if the extra material was the only thing that implied Infinite was superior to previous foes but you have the game damn near implying the same exact thing using Eggman’s robots and defeats as a measuring stick but still there’s somehow denial that Infinite get to that tier because he lost to the base cast despite said cast being heavily implied to have made a power leap and went from being cannon fodder for Infinite to taking down armies worth of clones of him? This is the same clones of the Infinite that cooked up an infinite place separate from all dimensions?

Infinite should definitely be Tier 2 at this point and I don’t see any valid reasons why he shouldn’t scale there.
Click to expand...
It would definitely be weird.
Like some Eggman robots are low 2-C like the one from Advance since it fought and restrained Super Sonic, but every other robot before is back to star-multi solar... Why?
It's canon that Eggman constantly makes up new inventions that surpass older Mecha that have failed to stop Sonic, quite a few times he digs around for the next ultimate power source. Eggman isn't staying in ranges that Sonic already is in, he's constantly looking to improve his chances of killing Sonic. While he does fail, that doesn't mean he doesn't try.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
The only reason I may prefer for it to be closed is because I have the general idea for a bigger thread than this, one which will include Low 2-C Infinite
Click to expand...
I agree in that case, close this thread since there seems to be no one that has anything else to say.
Also, if you need any supporting scans to justify Uni+ Base Sonic, you can always ask me.
 
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