Sonic Forces: Infinite AP Revision (Cue Infinite's Theme)

[CloverDragon03]

Really hoping there hasn't already been a bajillion threads on this subject.

Okay so I'm gonna preface this by saying I know absolutely jack shit about Sonic scaling, but even so, I found this and just found myself flabbergasted given that this should be a pretty clear power scaling statement. Given the title, you might understand where this is going...

So, Infinite. Cool design, mid af as a character. A tragedy indeed. But that doesn't mean he ain't strong, and my god is he stronger than we thought. Let me explain, as the evidence is twofold:

1. Infinite is verbatim stated to be Sonic's strongest enemy yet. Now, idk if we scale Sonic games by the order they're released in or by some other metric, but regardless, this would mean a massive upgrade for Infinite. It seems like, from what I know, we accept that Sonic remembers the events of 06, meaning this could mean a rating of 2-B, possibly 2-A for Infinite for being stronger than the Egg Wizard and Solaris.
2. Despite his previous inventions' defeats, Dr. Eggman calls Infinite his unstoppable creation, and in the Japanese version of Forces he refers to Infinite as "this ultimate weapon" (don't mind the captions, I grabbed this scan from somewhere else)

With this being said, I think Infinite should be rated significantly higher than he currently is. For my money, he should be 2-B, possibly 2-A via scaling above the likes of Solaris and the Egg Wizard. That's my take. Hopefully I don't get blasted from every angle for this.

And with that... DISCUSS!

Edit: First off, I removed the tallies because genuinely I can't be bothered with counting anymore. But more importantly...

THE PROPOSAL HAS CHANGED

2-B to 2-A Infinite has been pretty solidly rejected for the most part, so I'm proposing Low 2-C Infinite due to my second point. Namely, Infinite would scale above previous inventions that Eggman made himself, which would include the Super Egg Robot, which is Low 2-C. His justification would be like this:

Universe level+ (Stated to be Dr. Eggman's ultimate weapon, making him stronger than any previous inventions the doctor made on his own, which would include the Super Egg Robot)

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

i really agree with that

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Hehehehe, Base Sonic buffs bout to be nuts

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I agree tbh

 

[CurrySenpai]

Seems pretty solid since it’s stated multiple times and the plot does a decent job of reinforcing such a fact.

I agree.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

2-A Base Sonic, huh

 

[CloverDragon03]

2-A Base Sonic, huh

Absolute moment

 

[omegabronic]

i would disagree based on that would make base sonic = super sonic, but, since we already accept the emeralds as having chaotic always varying power, it could be said that after this point they are just giving more power to sonic then before in games like frontiers, so i will agree with this

also my man what is with you and upgrading tier 3 chars to tier 2? you did with zamasu and now sonic? my man just can't stop making Ws ayo, good job

 

[LaserPrecision]

I feel this is really jumping the gun. The Sonic fans of the site had a LOT of stuff prepared regarding Sonic scaling.

I am neutral. I have considered this before as evidence for Tier 2 Sonic (There's also several Tier 2 feats for Base Sonic), but there's also a fair amount of contradictions regarding it. I'll comment on minor things, but you can write me off as neutral because I don't strongly agree or disagree.

Infinite is stated to be Sonic's strongest enemy. You could interpret that to simply mean Base Sonic's strongest enemy. As in-game, he really did nothing to show he was stronger than any Super Sonic level foe from before (It doesn't help that Ian said the statement was purely for hype, but I have mixed feelings on Ian). In my opinion, that interpretation makes a lot more sense, as Base Sonic was defeated by him twice.

This is pretty supported by Frontiers as well, with there being statements from Sonic Team that even the weakest Titans are as strong as the final bosses Super Sonic defeated before, yet Sonic couldn't even put a god damn scratch on on the weakest of the Titans (and was one-shot) and required his Super Form to do anything. And that was just as a warning from Sage.

If these Titans are as strong as previous Super Sonic boss fights that Super Sonic defeated, and Infinite is supposedly superior to those bosses, then Base Sonic should've been able to easily damage them at the very least (Given he defeated Infinite in their last rematch, and was comparable in their previous rematch).

So I somewhat lean towards disagree with Tier 2 Infinite, not as a whole (As Sonic again, DOES have Tier 2 feats), but ONLY because the evidence is that statement of him being the "strongest" enemy when nothing in-game he did indicates that, seems to be later contradicted, and can be interpreted to mean the strongest enemy Base Sonic has beaten. But again, you can put me in neutral.

 

[CloverDragon03]

i would disagree based on that would make base sonic = super sonic, but, since we already accept the emeralds as having chaotic always varying power, it could be said that after this point they are just giving more power to sonic then before in games like frontiers, so i will agree with this

Afaik it can also be attributed to mad power creep within the series but at the same time idk Sonic scaling too much. Super Sonic would still be much stronger since he defeated The End, who was stated to be "infinite" compared to Sonic's past foes, which would include Infinite

I feel this is really jumping the gun. The Sonic fans of the site had a LOT of stuff prepared regarding Sonic scaling.

I made this CRT purely on impulse, independently of the Sonic fans. I had no idea what was being planned, so if it'd be best to put this on hold, I'm fine with that.

Still, for now, I do intend to address these points.

Infinite is stated to be Sonic's strongest enemy. You could interpret that to simply mean Base Sonic's strongest enemy. As in-game, he really did nothing to show he was stronger than any Super Sonic level foe from before (It doesn't help that Ian said the statement was purely for hype, but I have mixed feelings on Ian). In my opinion, that interpretation makes a lot more sense, as Base Sonic was defeated by him twice.

Afaik we don't seem to focus on intent as much as the actual statement. In addition, the restriction to Base Sonic is pretty arbitrary imo, especially if the statement was meant for hype. If it was for hype, it being about Base Sonic would just take away a lot of it.

This is pretty supported by Frontiers as well, with there being statements from Sonic Team that even the weakest Titans are as strong as the final bosses Super Sonic defeated before, yet Sonic couldn't even put a god damn scratch on on the weakest of the Titans (and was one-shot) and required his Super Form to do anything. And that was just as a warning from Sage.

Could you provide such statements?

Also, from what I've played of Frontiers, Super Sonic completely smacks the Titans around.

If these Titans are as strong as previous Super Sonic boss fights that Super Sonic defeated, and Infinite is supposedly superior to those bosses, then Base Sonic should've been able to easily damage them at the very least (Given he defeated Infinite in their last rematch, and was comparable in their previous rematch).

Again, I'd say this depends on the veracity of Sonic Team's statement on the Titans. I didn't even know such a statement existed, and the profiles don't make not of it either

 

[Dalesean027]

Following

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Considering there is nothing to show that Infinite is actually anywhere near the caliber of Solaris/Egg Wizard, is based purely off hype and promotional material, and he gets defeated by Sonic in base form, I am very much against Infinite being tier 2.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Considering there is nothing to show that Infinite is actually anywhere near the caliber of Solaris/Egg Wizard, is based purely off hype and promotional material, and he gets defeated by Sonic in base form, I am very much against Infinite being tier 2.

It's not just promotional material though, as even Eggman considers Infinite his "ultimate weapon" despite creating the Egg Wizard

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

It's not just promotional material though, as even Eggman considers Infinite his "ultimate weapon" despite creating the Egg Wizard

I also said “hype.” Eggman is hyping him.

 

[JJSliderman]

If Infinite had actually fought Super Sonic canonically I’d be inclined to understand, but he didn’t.

So I think it should only apply to base Sonic.

Not to mention Sonic goes on to beat something that is outright superior to Infinite, which is an entity powered by the same power source that enabled Phantom King to fight Super Sonic.

So Infinite < Mania Super Sonic, I don’t think that’s justification to place him above Egg Wizard.

Should also mention that Egg Wizard, by itself, has no tier 2 feats. It’s purely due to the Power of the Stars that it’s Super Sonic level at all. So it’s not really Eggman’s ultimate weapon in the sense that Eggman didn’t make it that strong on his own.

 

[JJSliderman]

With that said, why is base Sonic not scaling to the PR’s full power at this point, Eggman outright stated that the Ruby was overclocked, and the fact that he couldn’t amp something to the same level that Phantom King was despite being far more experienced than his classic self and using the same power source is kind of ridiculous.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If Infinite had actually fought Super Sonic canonically I’d be inclined to understand, but he didn’t.

So I think it should only apply to base Sonic.

Not to mention Sonic goes on to beat something that is outright superior to Infinite, which is an entity powered by the same power source that enabled Phantom King to fight Super Sonic.

So Infinite < Mania Super Sonic, I don’t think that’s justification to place him above Egg Wizard.

Should also mention that Egg Wizard, by itself, has no tier 2 feats. It’s purely due to the Power of the Stars that it’s Super Sonic level at all. So it’s not really Eggman’s ultimate weapon in the sense that Eggman didn’t make it that strong on his own.

Got some questions as a novice Sonic scaler:

1. Who are you referring to that Sonic goes on to beat? If you're referring to the Death Egg Robot, yeah that doesn't change my point I don't think
2. Eggman's profile says some of his strongest inventions are Low 2-C or even 2-C. Are these perhaps viable?

 

[omegabronic]

I feel this is really jumping the gun. The Sonic fans of the site had a LOT of stuff prepared regarding Sonic scaling.

I am neutral. I have considered this before as evidence for Tier 2 Sonic (There's also several Tier 2 feats for Base Sonic), but there's also a fair amount of contradictions regarding it. I'll comment on minor things, but you can write me off as neutral because I don't strongly agree or disagree.

Infinite is stated to be Sonic's strongest enemy. You could interpret that to simply mean Base Sonic's strongest enemy. As in-game, he really did nothing to show he was stronger than any Super Sonic level foe from before (It doesn't help that Ian said the statement was purely for hype, but I have mixed feelings on Ian). In my opinion, that interpretation makes a lot more sense, as Base Sonic was defeated by him twice.

This is pretty supported by Frontiers as well, with there being statements from Sonic Team that even the weakest Titans are as strong as the final bosses Super Sonic defeated before, yet Sonic couldn't even put a god damn scratch on on the weakest of the Titans (and was one-shot) and required his Super Form to do anything. And that was just as a warning from Sage.

If these Titans are as strong as previous Super Sonic boss fights that Super Sonic defeated, and Infinite is supposedly superior to those bosses, then Base Sonic should've been able to easily damage them at the very least (Given he defeated Infinite in their last rematch, and was comparable in their previous rematch).

So I somewhat lean towards disagree with Tier 2 Infinite, not as a whole (As Sonic again, DOES have Tier 2 feats), but ONLY because the evidence is that statement of him being the "strongest" enemy when nothing in-game he did indicates that, seems to be later contradicted, and can be interpreted to mean the strongest enemy Base Sonic has beaten. But again, you can put me in neutral.

tbh we already scale the titans above the top tiers that super sonic fought, like how knight is scaled above the egg wizard, plus the emeralds vary in power anyway, they are simply giving sonic more power in frontiers, super sonic is not a fixed boost in power, so to use it as a contradiction makes no sense

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah wouldn't this just mean Frontiers Super Sonic > 06 Super Sonic?

 

[LaserPrecision]

I made this CRT purely on impulse, independently of the Sonic fans. I had no idea what was being planned, so if it'd be best to put this on hold, I'm fine with that.

Still, for now, I do intend to address these points.

That's fine. I guess for future reference, it might be best to reach out with the fans of the verse. We are pretty active, so you don't worry about static.

Afaik we don't seem to focus on intent as much as the actual statement. In addition, the restriction to Base Sonic is pretty arbitrary imo, especially if the statement was meant for hype. If it was for hype, it being about Base Sonic would just take away a lot of it.

Not really. Sonic is one of the strongest character's in-verse. That would still be very hype. Sonic mollywhops over 90% of his own verse unironically. And has several hype statements of being one of the strongest and fastest character's in-verse.

I don't see it as arbitrary. It refers to "Sonic". Not Super Sonic. Super Sonic is referred to by name when talking in reference to him. In fact, he's treated so significantly different from Base Sonic, that they refer to him as an "alter ego" in official guides. I feel it's a bit misleading, but I guess they want to differentiate Super from Base as much as possible. Which is fair, because Super Sonic isn't like Super Saiyan. It's not a form he can access whenever. I requires him to have access to the strongest artifacts in-verse. So assuming the statement is a blanket one like that seems more arbitrary imo.

Could you provide such statements?

Also, from what I've played of Frontiers, Super Sonic completely smacks the Titans around.

Yeah, sure. Might take a bit. I'll have to sift through their twitter statement and interviews. But it's also pretty much affirmed in-game, with Tails believing The End to be on at least a "Dark Gaia" level threat, with said threat being viewed as bigger than that of the Titans. Implying them to be around that level, likely lower.

He smacks them around in gameplay. Yes. Though there are statements that imply the fights are difficult for Sonic. I feel this is the same for most boss fights tbh. You can smack em around in-game, but lore-wise are stronger.

Also to address the "ultimate creation/unbeatable" statements, that is always attributed to raw strength for some reason. When the entire reason Eggman wanted the Phantom Ruby was due to its weird mind hax reality warping bullshit powers. Ultimate can be in reference to strength, sure, but it could also refer to so many more aspects, like what it was hyped up for (It's op mindhax abilities), that attributing it to strength seems baseless imo.

There's also ramifications to this scaling, such as Phantom Ruby > Chaos Emeralds, which is entirely contradicted in-verse.

 

[JJSliderman]

Got some questions as a novice Sonic scaler:

1. Who are you referring to that Sonic goes on to beat? If you're referring to the Death Egg Robot, yeah that doesn't change my point I don't think
2. Eggman's profile says some of his strongest inventions are Low 2-C or even 2-C. Are these perhaps viable?

Usually when Eggman makes super form tier inventions, he relies on something that is decidedly not his own ability, the only exception is the Super Egg Robot).

I’m not against the idea of Infinite being Low 2-C, scaling to lower end Super Sonic tier characters, I compiled at least 5-6 examples to show that’s feasible, but 2-B to 2-A based solely on this statement is iffy.

Sonic beat Death Egg Robot amped by the Phantom Ruby, with Eggman stating he has fully surpassed Infinite with this robot, a robot who by all metrics should be on par with Phantom King and classic Super Sonic (aka a past foe of Sonic).

 

[LaserPrecision]

tbh we already scale the titans above the top tiers that super sonic fought, like how knight is scaled above the egg wizard, plus the emeralds vary in power anyway, they are simply giving sonic more power in frontiers, super sonic is not a fixed boost in power, so to use it as a contradiction makes no sense

The output of the Emeralds are chaotic, yes. However, they have a set full power. We know their full power < Power of the Stars thanks to Eggman. And Super Sonic used full power when fighting Egg Wizard, alongside Blaze. They can't give him more power than what they gave him against Egg Wizard. Sonic can get stronger though.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The output of the Emeralds are chaotic, yes. However, they have a set full power. We know their full power < Power of the Stars thanks to Eggman. And Super Sonic used full power when fighting Egg Wizard, alongside Blaze. They can't give him more power than what they gave him against Egg Wizard. Sonic can get stronger though.

The way I see it, this would just mean Sonic's base form in Frontiers > Sonic's base form in 06, which is very feasible

Usually when Eggman makes super form tier inventions, he relies on something that is decidedly not his own ability, the only exception is the Super Egg Robot).

I’m not against the idea of Infinite being Low 2-C, scaling to lower end Super Sonic tier characters, I compiled at least 5-6 examples to show that’s feasible, but 2-B to 2-A based solely on this statement is iffy.

Sonic beat Death Egg Robot amped by the Phantom Ruby, with Eggman stating he has fully surpassed Infinite with this robot, a robot who by all metrics should be on par with Phantom King and classic Super Sonic (aka a past foe of Sonic).

I'll keep the Low 2-C rating in mind if 2-B to 2-A doesn't work out then

 

[omegabronic]

Tbh i am planning on a massive upgrade to all super sonic bosses, i could use this as well now that i think about it

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well clearly I'm just absolutely out of the loop. I said before that I made this on a whim

 

[LaserPrecision]

The way I see it, this would just mean Sonic's base form in Frontiers > Sonic's base form in 06, which is very feasible

Oh, I definitely agree with that. In fact, we already have an accepted value of how many times stronger. The issue is statements of Emeralds being the strongest power in the universe. The Chaos Emeralds being > Phantom Ruby, and we know the Phantom Ruby Eggman used is >>> Infinite's prototype. So it becomes a circular error.

I agree with Tier 2 Sonic. He has several Tier 2 feats. I just don't agree with using Infinite's hype statements as proof of it. Some of us in the Sonic community had planned for a Tier 2 Sonic CRT that compiled all the Tier 2 stuff.

 

[omegabronic]

The output of the Emeralds are chaotic, yes. However, they have a set full power.

Do we tho? They are always refered to as "limitless" and "immeasurable" in power

We know their full power < Power of the Stars thanks to Eggman.

which ia not a problem since sonic would still upscales while in super anyway, this is really not a problem

And Super Sonic used full power when fighting Egg Wizard, alongside Blaze. They can't give him more power than what they gave him against Egg Wizard. Sonic can get stronger though.

Why not? If he uses the emeralds after being strong enough to be on their earlier level, then he would still be stronger

 

[omegabronic]

we know the Phantom Ruby Eggman used is >>> Infinite's prototype.

Do we tho? Where is the statement from this?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not exactly understanding the issue tbh.

So...

Frontiers Base Sonic > Death Egg Robot > Infinite > Solaris ~ 06 Super Sonic

Weakest Titan ~ Solaris > Frontiers Base Sonic

This is the issue, from what I understand. However, I have yet to see a source on the statement about the Titans

 

[LaserPrecision]

Do we tho? They are always refered to as "limitless" and "immeasurable" in power

Limitless and Immeasurable can mean different levels of infinity. Currently the verse caps at 2-A. So yes, they cap at 2-A, which is quite literally "limitless/Immeasurable".

which ia not a problem since sonic would still upscales while in super anyway, this is really not a problem

The problem is it contradicts the Phantom Ruby being superior to the Chaos Emeralds. The Chaos Emeralds SHOULD be superior to the Phantom Ruby. But if this thread goes through, we would be admitting to the Emeralds being inferior as Infinite would be above their highest output possible.

Why not? If he uses the emeralds after being strong enough to be on their earlier level, then he would still be stronger

Yes, HE would be stronger. Not the Emeralds. Super Sonic can get stronger with Base Sonic. But the Emeralds full power is a constant.

Do we tho? Where is the statement from this?

Bro, it's literally one of the first thing Eggman says before creating thousands of clones of Infinite using the true Phantom Ruby's power

 

[LaserPrecision]

I'm not exactly understanding the issue tbh.

So...

Frontiers Base Sonic > Death Egg Robot > Infinite > Solaris ~ 06 Super Sonic

Weakest Titan ~ Solaris > Frontiers Base Sonic

This is the issue, from what I understand. However, I have yet to see a source on the statement about the Titans

I'll simplify the issue. Using ONLY Infinite as proof for Tier 2 as an issue. Tier 2 Sonic isn't an issue in and of itself tho.

This thread asserts Phantom Ruby prototype > Chaos Emeralds

False as the Emeralds are consistently referred to as the strongest power in the universe (I believe even after Forces), with inexperienced Classic Super Sonic even being able to defeat a true Phantom Ruby user (In Mania).

That's just one issue. The second issue is circular scaling that makes no sense. Though you picked up on that.

There's also the fact that the Infinite statement doesn't even need to be interpreted AS Super Sonic when that's not even a normal power-up for Sonic. It requires an outside source that is like one of the strongest things in-verse. I'll dm you the twitter statement stuff about previous enemies when I find it tho.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Wouldn't this just mean Infinite + Phantom Ruby prototype > 06 Sonic + Chaos Emeralds, and thus Infinite > 06 Sonic? I know Infinite gets clapped by Shadow but I think that's after 06, meaning Forces Shadow > Infinite (by himself) > 06 Sonic, which is very true (or at least, very plausible)

 

[Theuser789]

Heavily disagree. This is promotional material hype. Infinite has no feats that make him stronger than Solaris and the rest.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Wouldn't this just mean Infinite + Phantom Ruby prototype > 06 Sonic + Chaos Emeralds, and thus Infinite > 06 Sonic? I know Infinite gets clapped by Shadow but I think that's after 06, meaning Forces Shadow > 06 Sonic, which is very true (or at least, very plausible)

I mean I guess that premise works if you believe Infinite is Super Sonic level to begin with based on his statement. But I disagree with that notion. I mean, again, I think he's Tier 2. I just don't think the "strongest opponent" is it. Nor did Ian who chalked it up to exaggeration or whatever he said.

I mean, how can Infinite's statement include Super Sonic if a power source STRONGER than Infinite lost to a weaker Super Sonic?

Like, Infinite should be > Classic Super Sonic who defeated someone who used the power of the True Phantom Ruby. Yet Eggman stated the True Phantom Ruby >>> Infinite and then casually created thousands of clones of Infinite using his power.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Again, this is entirely going by the power sources and not including the characters who wield those sources. If I wield the Phantom Ruby, I can still be stronger than you wielding the Chaos Emeralds if I am much stronger in base than you are in base

 

[LaserPrecision]

Again, this is entirely going by the power sources and not including the characters who wield those sources. If I wield the Phantom Ruby, I can still be stronger than you wielding the Chaos Emeralds if I am much stronger in base than you are in base

Mania Sonic >~ Modern Sonic

Modern Sonic >~ Shadow

Shadow >>> Infinite

Mania Sonic ~ Hard Boiled Heavies

Eggman without Phantom Ruby < Sonic

Eggman with Phantom Ruby > Infinite with Phantom Ruby Prototype

Hard Boiled Heavy amped by Phantom Ruby < Mania Super Sonic

Yet supposedly Infinite > Hard Boiled Heavy amped by Phantom Ruby?

Hard Boiled Heavy without any amps should be >>> Infinite without any amps

Thus if we assuming the characters using the power sources as what matters, they should be above Infinite with the Phantom Ruby prototype. But your CRT is trying to go against that.

I still think it's referring to being superior to people Sonic has beaten. Not Super Sonic. I feel that would have been mentioned if that were the case, as Team Sonic and others are careful to mention Super Sonic if someone is a Super Sonic level threat.

 

[JJSliderman]

I do think maybe you could argue that Infinite is superior to inventions that Eggman has made fully by himself, with Eggman calling it his ultimate weapon and full power Infinite being fought relatively close to a Super Sonic tier boss in the same game. Which would act as further reasoning for Low 2-C Base.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, question: If 2-B to 2-A doesn't work out, how would you feel about Low 2-C? The justification would be as follows (with appropriate links, obviously):

Universe level+ (Referred to as Dr. Eggman's ultimate weapon, making him stronger than any previous inventions made by him, which would include the Super Egg Robot)

 

[LaserPrecision]

Also, question: If 2-B to 2-A doesn't work out, how would you feel about Low 2-C? The justification would be as follows (with appropriate links, obviously):

Universe level+ (Referred to as Dr. Eggman's ultimate weapon, making him stronger than any previous inventions made by him, which would include the Super Egg Robot)

I plan to downgrade Super Egg Robot. Assuming that's the 3&K Doomsday bossfight. I think Infinite SHOULD be Tier 2 tho.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I plan to downgrade Super Egg Robot. Assuming that's the 3&K Doomsday bossfight. I think Infinite SHOULD be Tier 2 tho.

Well what's planned at the moment doesn't exactly help us right now, so I'm going by what we currently have