Soni- I mean! Mario Bros AP Revision/Upgrade! (M&L Brothership Spoilers)

[CloverDragon03]

I do not have any more control over how a thread goes than any other thread mod on the forum. If my points made no sense it would have simply been overruled by enough people voting against it and yet this has not happened. It may happen some day, clearly some people don't view powerscaling the way I do but if it was just objectively stupid it would have never passed to begin with.

Some people, unfortunately some of our own staff, don't read the things they're agreeing with. FRA trains exist even amongst staff, and bad threads can get accepted. You oughta know that's the case, so no, a thread being accepted doesn't automatically mean it was good

Shit man I'd give up too if I just kept getting walled by something I've tried to repeatedly address but to no avail because staff votes go brrr, at that point just do whatever you want since it's clearly not gonna matter either way

This may shock you but "going all the way" in powerscaling is literally impossible. Fiction is not made to be 100% consistent. You cannot come to a solution that is objectively correct and attempting to do so will not lead to any kind of results. Claiming that I am objectively a hypocrite because by my logic Mario should be 9-B is incorrect because there is a pretty nebulous amount of feats and anti-feats all across the range from there to mid tier 8 and because ultimately power-scaling is a game of compromises, and I was OK with "since there is a decent amount of feats backing up this 6-C rating, let's go for it even though there are anti-feats disproving it" as a compromise. Whether you agree or not with that does not mean that the logic behind it was objectively fallacious, and it definitely does not mean that any proposal for a higher tier is automatically equally valid.

This might shock you, but you kinda just proved my point. You agree that "going all the way" is literally impossible, and that we need to do certain things despite anti-feats existing. Problem though: at a certain point, it doesn't matter anymore. A High 6-A character and a 6-C character should be equally unthreatened by a Tier 9 or even Tier 8 attack. You can talk AP values and shit, but in practice, there's no real distinction because either way they should be utterly unaffected. So it's very strange to me to apply the anti-feats against High 6-A but not against 6-C

I would have care about the accusations I just described because they would have been fair and correct. I did not care about the accusations of downplay that I did receive with how I did handle things because I do not believe that those were fair or correct.

I think both situations are problematic because we're literally ignoring feats. Like, how much ignorance do we need to build up to be satisfied? Is the verse just forever capped here because any higher feat will just automatically get brushed aside? This sets an incredibly bad precedent. I kinda prefer how things were before because it was just "going with the highest feat" as opposed to this little dance of "let's use Mario's feats, oh but not all of them for some reason; let's make Mario this tier in spite of anti-feats, oh but not for any tier higher"

The issue is that the High 6-A calc is 216611 times higher than the 6-C one, it's like saying a 9-A feat is support for a 7-C rating, or like if my highest support for the 6-C rating was 7-C. I'm not being arbitrary and if you continue to fail the difference between the situation you're proposing and the one that already happened I frankly do not have the time or energy to waste trying to explain it to you again and again.

Feel free. In the exact same vein, I'm tired of pretending this isn't some ridiculous way to go about it no matter how it's attempted at being rationalized. Like I said, at some point the severity of an anti-feat becomes redundant because a Tier 9 anti-feat is just as damning to a Tier 6 character as it is to a Tier 4 character

I'm not gonna respond any further than this. Whatever happens, happens

 

[Eseseso]

I will say that Clover and others are right in that the usage of anti-feats to downplay Mario goes way too far, especially in comparison to other verses with anti-feats of similar nature but don't get nerfed for it (like, say, Kirby or SMT).

I will also switch to agree with the High 6-A feat.

EDIT: I actually agree with Mario scaling to High 6-C if the High 6-A stuff is not accepted. He took a lot of hits from the Shadow Queen, which should scale to her shockwave since it was just from her awakening, plus her initial superiority was mostly due to her invulnerability and without that they were even.

 

[Eseseso]

When will Mario fans do the Tier 1 Mario CRT man come on I aint no wanna see Tier 6 Bowser no more

No one does, the verse just has some powerful haters

 

[Armorchompy]

Some people, unfortunately some of our own staff, don't read the things they're agreeing with. FRA trains exist even amongst staff, and bad threads can get accepted. You oughta know that's the case, so no, a thread being accepted doesn't automatically mean it was good

Shit man I'd give up too if I just kept getting walled by something I've tried to repeatedly address but to no avail because staff votes go brrr, at that point just do whatever you want since it's clearly not gonna matter either way

Don't get me wrong I agree, whenever I check a thread I try to read the whole thing and give my thoughts on arguments and counterarguments (and it's pretty annoying to see a staff member just FRAing when there's flaws nobody's pointed out) but what do you want me to do about it? Tag everybody who agrees with me and go "no, dummy, read the whole thing and give me a paragraph of opinions"? I don't love it either, frankly.

This might shock you, but you kinda just proved my point. You agree that "going all the way" is literally impossible, and that we need to do certain things despite anti-feats existing. Problem though: at a certain point, it doesn't matter anymore. A High 6-A character and a 6-C character should be equally unthreatened by a Tier 9 or even Tier 8 attack. You can talk AP values and shit, but in practice, there's no real distinction because either way they should be utterly unaffected. So it's very strange to me to apply the anti-feats against High 6-A but not against 6-C

It's not very strange, one of them has feats supporting it, the other doesn't. You're saying "ok you made this compromise so why aren't you ok with making a much bigger one", that is unreasonable. I never said "there's this many anti-feats, find me more feats for a certain tier", I just said "since there's this many anti-feats, any tier that the verse is rated at should have a good amount of feats supporting it".

I will say that Clover and others are right in that the usage of anti-feats to downplay Mario goes way too far, especially in comparison to other verses with anti-feats of similar nature but don't get nerfed for it (like, say, Kirby or SMT).

Except that SMT and Kirby both have like, way more valid cosmic feats and not even close to the same amount of valid anti-feats (specially Kirby, SMT does have a handful of legitimate ones, but SMT also has literally like 20+ universal or higher feats and statements and a handful of cosmic ones too). Like seriously you say "similar nature" but there really isn't any verse with this kind of portrayal.

Honestly it's really funny to me when people bring up Kirby in these situations, the guy I think literally has more feats than anti-feats. Like what does he even have, getting stunned by an apple falling on him in an Adventure cutscene? Not being able to open a door in Forgotten Land? Dude's got a tier 6 to 5 feat in both of those games, you'd get laughed out of the room if you tried to use that.

 

[Robo432343]

Like I'm not sure if anyone realizes just how much this kind of thinking can be utterly abused to just stonewall any upgrade attempt ever because "muh anti-feats." Like, if you care so much about the anti-feats, why is Mario even Tier 6 to begin with? Why didn't you just go all the way and make him Tier 9 because any higher feat can be dismissed with "muh anti-feats"? This is just a complete non-argument

Agree FRA

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I will never understand people who firmly believe that anti-feats are used to somehow downplay, as if they are not the verse itself displaying exceptions within itself, as though the mere recognition of a verse indeed being consistently below its uppermost feat is an affront. VSBW has fundamentally altered the minds of some.

I agree with Armor (and thus disagree with the thread).

 

[Da3ggman]

Definitely agree with the upgrade to High 6-A; the feat is as blatant as blatant can get. Genuinely don't know how people are arguing against it and calling it an "outlier" when there are other Tier 6 Calcs that we use lol.

Neutral on the freezing the sun bit, though.

 

[Starsprite53]

Listen like, I get what you mean but this is obviously just talking from a gameplay perspective. It makes no sense to say that Paper Mario bridged the gap he had with the Queen when it's something he was completely unable to do before, and when his power relations to the rest of the cast don't change afterwards (Bowser should NOT be comparable to him in SPM).

... But that doesn't matter because it turns out they changed what she says in the remake to "She's probably stronger than your basic final-boss type, seriously!", which is just poking fun at the concept of a superboss. So, not really a valid statement to begin with.

Talking from a gameplay perspective" is a non-argument in this scenario, especially since many so-called anti-feats could also be dismissed as gameplay-related. Also, I don’t see how such blatant statement like “stronger than the last boss” is such a thing tbh
Mario is constantly shown to grow stronger throughout his games and TTYD is no exception.Earlier in the game, he can’t even damage the Armored Harriers. Later, he fought toe to toe with Rawk Hawk and defeated him, who’s implied to be stronger than the harriers. then Bowsy (such a chad) shows up, bitch stomped Hawk with ease and mario still manages to beat bowser not long after.That’s a clear example of him bridging power gaps as the game progresses. Why would it be far-fetched to think he could do the same after the Shadow Queen fight? No offense but I think you're arguing out of bad faith
Plus, this is a post-game boss aka after The ending of the game when Mario leaving Rogueport and then returning later we don’t know how much time passed inbetween, but it’s entirely plausible that the plumber trained or grew stronger during that time. Nothing in the game contradicts this idea and it fits perfectly with his showings of AD.
As for the remake’s updated line about Bonetail being "a joke about RPG superbosses". It doesn’t change the fact that it's stated to be strogner (I don't need to define the word stronger) nor change the meaning of the original line, and honestly, it feels like nitpicking. If anything, the original Japanese text says:
"If we mess this up, she might be even stronger than the final boss! Let’s give it our all and do our best!"
Hopefully there’s no deeper implication here because trying to spin this into something else just feels like semantics., like seriously both versions convey the same meaning, with the English one sounding a little cooler and I didn't even need to bring up the japanese version.

Honestly it's really funny to me when people bring up Kirby in these situations, the guy I think literally has more feats than anti-feats. Like what does he even have, getting stunned by an apple falling on him in an Adventure cutscene? Not being able to open a door in Forgotten Land? Dude's got a tier 6 to 5 feat in both of those games, you'd get laughed out of the room if you tried to use that.

Listen, I’m one of the biggest Kirby fans here, but let’s not act like his anti-feats don’t exist just because he cracked a planet. People love to sweep those under the rug, but there are plenty of them besides the two you mentioned. For example, the scripted scene where Kirby is threatened by the Halberd’s explosion or falling from the sky, both of which make no sense if he’s supposedly leagues above that level.(Also I would love to hear the excuse about Popstar being full of cute fodders, who narratively have more anti-feats than Kirby himself, with “planet-busting punches” which said planet somehow manage to be stable every second)
Also, I really don’t understand your argument about “Dude’s got a tier 6 to 5 feat in both of those games.” The exact same logic applies to Mario. He’s got higher-end feats in the same games where anti-feats happen, but you dismiss his while defending Kirby’s? That’s not consistent at all.(I'm not antagonizing you nor I think there is a conspiracy btw) Also it's funny when there is an official statement about Mario being stronger than Kirby in robobot
Finally, your comment about “you’d get laughed out of the room if you tried to use that” is unnecessary, irrelevent and ironic. You’re getting the exact same reaction currently, so maybe tone that down a bit. It doesn’t help your case when your own logic can be flipped on its head just as easily.
About SMT, a lot of poeple downplay the human protagonists, acting like they’re nothing special without Understanding instead of their sheer strength.Some (well casuals but that doesn't matter) laugh at the idea of them being even planetary, bringing up stuff like them dying to bullets or getting hurt by things that would affect a regular human.

 

[JJSliderman]

I’ll be honest I’ve always disliked tier 6 Mario, this feels like a good first step to restoring him.

 

[Armorchompy]

Talking from a gameplay perspective" is a non-argument in this scenario, especially since many so-called anti-feats could also be dismissed as gameplay-related. Also, I don’t see how such blatant statement like “stronger than the last boss” is such a thing tbh
Mario is constantly shown to grow stronger throughout his games and TTYD is no exception.Earlier in the game, he can’t even damage the Armored Harriers. Later, he fought toe to toe with Rawk Hawk and defeated him, who’s implied to be stronger than the harriers. then Bowsy (such a chad) shows up, bitch stomped Hawk with ease and mario still manages to beat bowser not long after.That’s a clear example of him bridging power gaps as the game progresses. Why would it be far-fetched to think he could do the same after the Shadow Queen fight?

I already recognized that there is a fair argument for the Shadow Queen scaling. Mario growing in power throughout his games is a fact but is also pretty inconsistent given how every power dynamic across the series remains the same despite that growth, so I wouldn't exactly rely on it too much if that was all there was, but I'm not opposing that feat anymore. (I'd prefer it to be a likely/possibly thing, although admittedly that'd bloat tiers a bit)

No offense but I think you're arguing out of bad faith

No offense, but what you think doesn't really concern me.

Listen, I’m one of the biggest Kirby fans here, but let’s not act like his anti-feats don’t exist just because he cracked a planet. People love to sweep those under the rug, but there are plenty of them besides the two you mentioned. For example, the scripted scene where Kirby is threatened by the Halberd’s explosion or falling from the sky, both of which make no sense if he’s supposedly leagues above that level.(Also I would love to hear the excuse about Popstar being full of cute fodders, who narratively have more anti-feats than Kirby himself, with “planet-busting punches” which said planet somehow manage to be stable every second)
Also, I really don’t understand your argument about “Dude’s got a tier 6 to 5 feat in both of those games.” The exact same logic applies to Mario. He’s got higher-end feats in the same games where anti-feats happen, but you dismiss his while defending Kirby’s? That’s not consistent at all.(I'm not antagonizing you nor I think there is a conspiracy btw)

About SMT, a lot of poeple downplay the human protagonists, acting like they’re nothing special without Understanding instead of their sheer strength.Some (well casuals but that doesn't matter) laugh at the idea of them being even planetary, bringing up stuff like them dying to bullets or getting hurt by things that would affect a regular human.

I'm not going to start a discussion that is completely unrelated to the topic at hand but neither situation you have describes is anywhere near Mario's. It's just simply a very different ratio of feats to anti-feats (and if an angle of portrayal is being discussed, the fact that most SMT and especially Kirby feats are VERY straightforward, whereas Mario's require a lot of interpretation to ever become viable). Gun to my head, I've played like all Kirby games minus like five or six and I couldn't think of ten anti-feats off the top of my head. Maybe they exist but they sure aren't as prominent.

But ultimately like, Mario isn't getting special treatment, if a verse is put at a certain level and has a fuckton of anti-feats against it with little to support its current ratings, then I would probably agree with downgrading it. At least it's the standard I try to abide by whenever I make pages for things.

Finally, your comment about “you’d get laughed out of the room if you tried to use that” is unnecessary, irrelevent and ironic. You’re getting the exact same reaction currently, so maybe tone that down a bit. It doesn’t help your case when your own logic can be flipped on its head just as easily.

It's hard to address this in a polite manner but there's more staff disagreements than agreements with OP, I wouldn't say I'm "getting laughed out of the room".

 

[TartaChocholate]

I will never understand people who firmly believe that anti-feats are used to somehow downplay, as if they are not the verse itself displaying exceptions within itself, as though the mere recognition of a verse indeed being consistently below its uppermost feat is an affront. VSBW has fundamentally altered the minds of some.

I agree with Armor (and thus disagree with the thread).

Well, uh... I know I'm stepping out of line here, but... I think it's the feeling that the Mario verse is being subjected to a particularly harsh standard. Not complaining or trying to make accusations, just trying to put my finger on the issue.

The idea that the scaling of a verse should balance both its highest showings and is anti-feats is not bad or anything or anything of the sort. As a rule, while it would have some pushback from some (many try to take their favorites as far as possible, after all, something I won't pretend of not being guilty of as well), my guess it's something that people would accept as "fair" and just being how things are here. No story is free of numerous anti-feats, if one were to sit down and look for them they would encounter an important number. In pretty much every verse I've worked on it has happened. So again, scaling being a balance between high and low, in itself is not a bad approach by any means, since it seeks consistency.

I think the issue begins, please correct me if I'm wrong, that verses on the site just embrace their best displays and that's what they scale to, and sometimes not even a feat, rather lore or even one-off statements. Even outliers have become rarely used nowadays in general. That contrasted with how Mario has to follow this consistency rule by juggling it high and low ends is what leads to discontent. If everybody had to follow the same, people would just get used to and roll with it.

I mean, are there really other verses that have to follow the same standard to the extent Mario does? I am not daring or anything, this is a legitimate question. Though I do apologize if the question is an impertinent one.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well, uh... I know I'm stepping out of line here, but... I think it's the feeling that the Mario verse is being subjected to a particularly harsh standard. Not complaining or trying to make accusations, just trying to put my finger on the issue.

I think literally all verses should be subjected to scrutiny. We should not be against scrutiny. It's a silly concept, our entire purpose is to scrutinize.

The idea that the scaling of a verse should balance both its highest showings and is anti-feats is not bad or anything or anything of the sort. As a rule, while it would have some pushback from some (many try to take their favorites as far as possible, after all, something I won't pretend of not being guilty of as well), my guess it's something that people would accept as "fair" and just being how things are here. No story is free of numerous anti-feats, if one were to sit down and look for them they would encounter an important number. In pretty much every verse I've worked on it has happened. So again, scaling being a balance between high and low, in itself is not a bad approach by any means, since it seeks consistency.

This is decidedly not the idea. The idea is consistency. We don't arbitrarily choose a point in the middle of all feats, that would be silly, but that's not what is done.

I think the issue begins, please correct me if I'm wrong, that verses on the site just embrace their best displays and that's what they scale to, and sometimes not even a feat, rather lore or even one-off statements. Even outliers have become rarely used nowadays in general. That contrasted with how Mario has to follow this consistency rule by juggling it high and low ends is what leads to discontent. If everybody had to follow the same, people would just get used to and roll with it.

Yes. And this is an error. People have decided to just... ignore, the fact that their characters, dare I say it, might not be as high as believed. All verses ought to be forced to be consistent within themselves, rather than running with the highest possible interpretations. Your protests are not valid for protecting Mario and making him Tier 2 or 3 or whatever is the "desired" tier. It is instead an indictment on countless other verses that they have failed.

I mean, are there really other verses that have to follow the same standard to the extent Mario does? I am not daring or anything, this is a legitimate question. Though I do apologize if the question is an impertinent one.

Per our actual rules? Yeah. Most people are just lazy and don't go along with them.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I don't think all that stuff even matters here.
Both 6-C and High 6-A have two calcs and both completely contradict all the established anti-feats, so they're kinda in the same position.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't think all that stuff even matters here.
Both 6-C and High 6-A have two calcs and both completely contradict all the established anti-feats, so they're kinda in the same position.

Thread isn't really about that, though. I might agree with that, but that's not the CRT. The CRT is an upgrade to some other tier.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Thread isn't really about that, though. I might agree with that, but that's not the CRT. The CRT is an upgrade to some other tier.

It sorta is.

It seems that these calcs warrant a buff to High 6-A for those scaling to Base Mario and Base Luigi, with an additional High 6-C support calc (because I'm 99% sure cross-scaling is valid here). Additionally, Luigi directly displays a Class Y feat that I assume can be scaled to those who scale to him.

 

[TartaChocholate]

I think literally all verses should be subjected to scrutiny. We should not be against scrutiny. It's a silly concept, our entire purpose is to scrutinize.

And I'm not against that. If we all had to do it, it would completely fine.

This is decidedly not the idea. The idea is consistency. We don't arbitrarily choose a point in the middle of all feats, that would be silly, but that's not what is done.

My bad, I explained myself poorly, what I meant was a scaling that made sense when considering both the high ends and the low ends, not an average.

Yes. And this is an error. People have decided to just... ignore, the fact that their characters, dare I say it, might not be as high as believed. All verses ought to be forced to be consistent within themselves, rather than running with the highest possible interpretations.

Yeh, the infamous power creep of the latest years, it has been a topic on quite a few places.

Your protests are not valid for protecting Mario and making him Tier 2 or 3 or whatever is the "desired" tier. It is instead an indictment on countless other verses that they have failed.

Please don't put words on my mouth, dude. I am not defending Mario nor demanding a tier nor protesting. I'm simply giving my thoughts on why there's this negativity around the standard of consistency when it comes to Mario.

Per our actual rules? Yeah. Most people are just lazy and don't go along with them.

But are they actively enforced on other verses aside Mario? Look, I'm not challenging you, complaining or anything. Like I told you earlier, I'm just trying to put my finger on the matter (that being the abovementioned negativity). I also think think things are too lenient sometimes (I've gotten away with some pretty questionable nonsense), but if loose standards are an issue, then shouldn't they be enforced in a more widespread way to try to solve the matter?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I don't think all that stuff even matters here.
Both 6-C and High 6-A have two calcs and both completely contradict all the established anti-feats, so they're kinda in the same position.

High 6-A has one calc.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

High 6-A has one calc.

The current freezing the sun calc is High 6-A, but I guess that's subject to change.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

As stated in the OP we'd need a calc group discussion to determine if that's High 6-A or Low 4-C. Until then I wouldn't use that to support High 6-A.

Calc Member Discussion/Evaluation is needed to discuss this third feat.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It sorta is.

So are you trying to say you're also against High 6-A? My point is that the current tiers of the characters isn't the issue, since the OP is just proposing an upgrade from them. Maybe the current tiers suck too, I just know that the OP's upgrade is also not good.

Please don't put words on my mouth, dude. I am not defending Mario nor demanding a tier nor protesting. I'm simply giving my thoughts on why there's this negativity around the standard of consistency when it comes to Mario.

What would you call it, if not protesting? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but that appears to be an accurate description to what's happening.

But are they actively enforced on other verses aside Mario? Look, I'm not challenging you, complaining or anything. Like I told you earlier, I'm just trying to put my finger on the matter (that being the abovementioned negativity). I also think think things are too lenient sometimes (I've gotten away with some pretty questionable nonsense), but if loose standards are an issue, then shouldn't they be enforced in a more widespread way to try to solve the matter?

They should be. It doesn't matter if they are, the failings of many shouldn't dictate that the few should fail out of uniformity, I think. I can't enforce them personally on a widespread basis- they should be, and the rules are that they must be, but that doesn't always mean they are. The fact is that sometimes a verse just gets a purge of bad stuff taken upon it. In this case, for some reason, it's become the focal point that this could happen. It's sidetracking the conversation unnecessarily.

 

[TartaChocholate]

What would you call it, if not protesting? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but that appears to be an accurate description to what's happening.

Discussing, theorizing, rambling, talking out of my buttocks because my explanations are completely absurd. I saw how upset you are over this whole matter (which I get, given the situation has been going for a while with other CRTs in the past), so I tried to give my thoughts to try to somehow help a bit but also understand a bit the stance on the other side. I know I am being self-righteous, in that regard, that's why I said I was stepping out of line. I mean, I don't scale Mario, I play the games casually and have openly admitted before that I know nothing about it VS wise, I am in no position to argue for anything when it comes to its tiers or hax.

They should be. It doesn't matter if they are, the failings of many shouldn't dictate that the few should fail out of uniformity, I think. I can't enforce them personally on a widespread basis- they should be, and the rules are that they must be, but that doesn't always mean they are. The fact is that sometimes a verse just gets a purge of bad stuff taken upon it. In this case, for some reason, it's become the focal point that this could happen. It's sidetracking the conversation unnecessarily.

I agree. I am not saying that Mario should be exempted of the standard, simply that enforcing it in a widespread manner would change the perception about the standard itself. You shouldn't shoulder this yourself, but maybe the staff as a group can pull it off?

Anyhow, my apologies, I'll drop the subject and won't derail the topic further.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Discussing, theorizing, rambling, talking out of my buttocks because my explanations are completely absurd. I saw how upset you are over this whole matter (which I get, given the situation has been going for a while with other CRTs in the past), so I tried to give my thoughts to try to somehow help a bit but also understand a bit the stance on the other side. I know I am being self-righteous, in that regard, that's why I said I was stepping out of line. I mean, I don't scale Mario, I play the games casually and have openly admitted before that I know nothing about it VS wise, I am in no position to argue for anything when it comes to its tiers or hax.

I'm not upset, although tone is a difficult thing to indicate. I'm more just shocked by how this is all treated as some sort of absurdity, when it really isn't.

I agree. I am not saying that Mario should be exempted of the standard, simply that enforcing it in a widespread manner would change the perception about the standard itself. You shouldn't shoulder this yourself, but maybe the staff as a group can pull it off?

Anyhow, my apologies, I'll drop the subject and won't derail the topic further.

It does get spread, just not consistently. In a perfect world, I'd love for it to be applied universally and correctly. For now, I'm content that a movement is being made here and now.

 

[AStrangeverse]

High 6-A has one calc.

no, there's another

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

no, there's another

Oh neat. Does the base cast scale to this?

 

[Mephistus]

Oh neat. Does the base cast scale to this?

Your partners and even Mario can attack through the star rods barrier without the star beam, in what seems to be intentionally scripted and allowed in game (Bowser there has 4 defense, so attacks with 5 can hurt him) for the first part of the final fight if you have high enough attack eg Mario charging up. You can alternate between utilizing the star beam there too. 2nd part of the final fight you absolutely can't break the star rods barrier without the peach beam and it's scripted so you have to do so, no attack can overcome his defense.


Source:

Me > Star Rod *SPOILERS* - Paper Mario

For Paper Mario on the Nintendo 64, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Me > Star Rod *SPOILERS*".

gamefaqs.gamespot.com

Also ty to Nia who pointed this out

 

[JJSliderman]

If we’re scaling to the star rod at all, the rod is a match for the star spirits who created dream depot.

 

[Mephistus]

If we’re scaling to the star rod at all, the rod is a match for the star spirits who created dream depot.

Not sure how to approach this since the paper Mario split and treating their paper counterparts as comparable. If they are supposedly comparable then sure; if not that's your best feat for the rod. People are adamant that Mario and company is not getting amped by the star spirits there though and is just using power null.

 

[JJSliderman]

I think it’s more about, with these being technically different Star spirits do they still create dream depot or scale to it.

 

[Armorchompy]

If I'm remembering correctly The Star Rod was accepted to not scale to the main cast of PM.

 

[Theglassman12]

The feats look ok to me, agreed.

 

[OrangeFR]

I know our peasant non-staff opinions don’t matter to any CRTs but I agree

 

[Tllmbrg]

Checking over the thread as far as I can tell the new feats don't actually do anything
Now in my ideal world Mario is 9-B but we're not there, so I'll just agree to saying the anti-feats still prevent the higher ratings from being a thing

 

[Chariot190]

 Starsprite53 showed a scan implying a later boss is superior to the Shadow Queen.

As an fyi, this doesn't actually make sense.
It's actually just yap. Goombella going "it might be stronger than the last boss" already isn't a good sign, but you can fight Hookbonetail before SQ, yet she says the same thing, this tells us the statement she isn't actually referring to SQ in particular, checking the raw, and the remake, she isn't even talking about SQ as a last boss, but last bosses as a concept anyway, which aligns with the fact that she can say that without even knowing who the SQ is. This statement would only work if Bonetail was post-game only.

Couple that with Mario being completely unable to even harm SQ and the whole premise of the game and it's mcguffins, on top of Goombella's actual ignorance to the SQ's power in regards to that statement, it ain't good.
feat is higher anyway, SQ can shake the whole planet.

(like, say, Kirby or SMT).

smt is actually insane in terms of anti-feats ngl

Now in my ideal world Mario is 9-B but we're not there, so I'll just agree to saying the anti-feats still prevent the higher ratings from being a thing

This is crazy

I mean, are there really other verses that have to follow the same standard to the extent Mario does? I am not daring or anything, this is a legitimate question. Though I do apologize if the question is an impertinent one.

We don't have tier 7 Plat despite the existence of like 3-4 feats on that scale that could be argued to scale if you squint when they have like 200 feats around 8-C with some of the higher ones taking effort for good reason.

 

[Da3ggman]

We don't have tier 7 Plat despite the existence of like 3-4 feats on that scale that could be argued to scale if you squint when they have like 200 feats around 8-C with some of the higher ones taking effort for good reason.

There are Tier 7 canon Jojo feats?!

 

[Lou_change]

If I am not mistaken the 6-C rating is based on an interpretation of the size of a moon that the calc maker initially supported with a feat that relied on a contradictory assumption. We also chose it as a compromise because people agreed that mario was stronger than tier 8 and weaker than tier 3.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Anyways I agree with the High 6-A upgrades, blatant and got necessary retouches so it's consistent to what the site has Mario has it at. (No this is not sarcasm or meant to be a jab at anything)

 

[Mephistus]

If I'm remembering correctly The Star Rod was accepted to not scale to the main cast of PM.

I brought different evidence up two posts above you than what was brought up before.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Just want to say that I agree with High 6-A, but I’ll wait for more opinions on the “freezing the sun” statements.

 

[Chariot190]

There are Tier 7 canon Jojo feats?!

Yeah but I wouln't scale them to shit, hence, ya know, you could go lmao stand energy or something and argue Plat scales because of the plat glaze but, like, no **** off.
Jesus has like a 6-A death feat which is funny.

Also the freezing the sun statement is legit, the problem is it's just impossible to quantify without details, it could be as low as like 6-A, to as high as like High 4-C, dependent on numerous factors that aren't given.
It's still a good statement for the temp tho, gives Mario and pals a stupid af ice manip but for AP it's impossible to actually calc without details we simply do not get.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Also the freezing the sun statement is legit, the problem is it's just impossible to quantify without details, it could be as low as like 6-A, to as high as like High 4-C, dependent on numerous factors that aren't given.
It's still a good statement for the temp tho, gives Mario and pals a stupid af ice manip but for AP it's impossible to actually calc without details we simply do not get.

Shouldn't you just take the lowest end then?