Son Goku vs Simon the Digger

[BluudyManikin777]

goku punches and wins.

The gap isn’t even that large for a one shot

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Tbh, I feel like the main wincon that SGGL out of all his wincons is still MMVC, if he's able to stay alive long enough to charge it, than Gokue is ****** as he has nothing to counter that

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The gap isn’t even that large for a one shot

Goku has a 7x advantage in regular SSJ. SSJ goku < SSJ2 goku < SSJ3 goku <<< SSG goku < SSB goku, SSG is a far stronger amp than SSJ which is stronger than KK20x. Since SSB is SSG x SSJ then you can actually 20x goku's SSJ value as a big low ball for SSB. Goku one shots.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

A Mecha that shoots probability altering beams throughout past and future simultaneously vs a fighting monkey

So it depends entirely on first move

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The one shot gap is 7.5x btw.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Goku has a 7x advantage in regular SSJ. SSJ goku < SSJ2 goku < SSJ3 goku <<< SSG goku < SSB goku, SSG is a far stronger amp than SSJ which is stronger than KK20x. Since SSB is SSG x SSJ then you can actually 20x goku's SSJ value as a big low ball for SSB. Goku one shots.

That’s still at least 7x, you can’t just assume it goes up to at least 7.5x with the inconsistent multipliers

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Then I guess just use base or a weaker Goku?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Are you actually seriously telling me directly that gap between SSJ and SSB is less than .5 times lmao? Even though I've just proven that it's far more than 20x?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Then I guess just use base or a weaker Goku?

No, it’s still at least a 7x AP gap, because the multipliers are inconsistent or unknown, so we don’t know for sure how much higher SSJB is

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Are you actually seriously telling me directly that gap between SSJ and SSB is less than .5 times lmao? Even though I've just proven that it's far more than 20x?

No, I’m just saying the true gap is unquantifiable because of the inconsistent or unknown multipliers. The only reliable multiplier is the SSJ multiplier. We can’t make assumptions, even though it seems like it may be that much superior

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Uh yes you can are you kidding me right now? The super saiyan multipliers are consistent in their portrayal and that's fact, we know for a fact that SSG is far far stronger than SSJ, I am going to repeat this scaling chain again . 220x universal = base goku < Base goku RoF < 50x base goku rof = SSJ goku < SSJ2 < SSJ3 <<< SSG < SSB. Even without stacking multipliers, its stupid to think that this gap isn't ******* huge especially when you've literally seen dragon ball.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Uh yes you can are you kidding me right now? The super saiyan multipliers are consistent in their portrayal and that's fact, we know for a fact that SSG is far far stronger than SSJ, I am going to repeat this scaling chain again . 220x universal = base goku < Base goku RoF < 50x base goku rof = SSJ goku < SSJ2 < SSJ3 <<< SSG < SSB. Even without stacking multipliers, its stupid to think that this gap isn't ******* huge especially when you've literally seen dragon ball.

I know the gap is huge, but everything still adds up to an at least instead of straight up. A scaling chain isn’t enough to identify a stomp, but rather identify superiority over others, they’re not for identifying the exact results. Even if we do know the insane gap within this scaling chain, it alone isn’t good enough to say someone stomps

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

So you're saying that if goku punches the mecha and one shots he wins?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

So you're saying that if goku punches the mecha and one shots he wins?

He doesn’t one shot, but if he hits Simon enough, he could win

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Ok I vote goku.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Counted

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Has my vote been counted yet?

If not, I'll just place here again: SGGL has the MMVC which Goku has no chance of defending against, SGGL could BFR with his space time punch and has far greater LS, could absorb attacks to close the gap if Goku chooses to shoot him and has force field which can defend him long enough to charge the MMVC.

I say SGGL high dif

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Counted

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

what is mmvc? how strong are the forcefields?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

what is mmvc? how strong are the forcefields?

Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon. It’s an attack where SGGL fires probability altering shots, throughout past and future simultaneously

Unknown, but SGGL has blocked energy waves from another 3-A, and could absorb energy waves while blocking with the forcefield

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

His force field is greater than his dura at the very least.

Also Goku would need stuff like acausality or causality manipulation in order to defend against the MMVC, which he doesn't have

SGGL could pretty much just murder Goku's past self easily like his kid self

 

[BluudyManikin777]

His force field is greater than his dura at the very least.

Also Goku would need stuff like acausality or causality manipulation in order to defend against the MMVC, which he doesn't have

SGGL could pretty much just murder Goku's past self easily like his kid self

That’s assuming Simon would get to fire it in the first place with the AP advantage Goku has

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon. It’s an attack where SGGL fires probability altering shots, throughout past and future simultaneously

Unknown, but SGGL has blocked energy waves from another 3-A, and could absorb energy waves while blocking with the forcefield

Is this attack in character or when does he use it? Because if he doesn't fire it within a few moves, then goku one shots immediately, also does absorption have limits?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Like I said, he has the force field which likely defends him for a while, and the fact he also has absorption if Goku chooses to shoot him

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Is this attack in character or when does he use it? Because if he doesn't fire it within a few moves, then goku one shots immediately, also does absorption have limits?

Yes, it is in character. And Goku doesn’t one shot, I thought we established that. And Simon doesn’t have a limit to absorption, he could absorb a sea of ultra-dense space the size of at least a solar system, which was being converted into Spiral Power. He went from Planet level to Universe level by doing this

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

It's a bit NLF to say it has no limits, however him absorbing something that is 4-B when SGGL was only 5-B and then becoming 3-A after that absorbing the 4-B thing should establish the extent of his absorption

 

[BluudyManikin777]

It's a bit NLF to say it has no limits, however him absorbing something that is 4-B when SGGL was only 5-B and then becoming 3-A after that absorbing the 4-B thing should establish the extent of his absorption

I meant he could absorb as much energy as he wants, not that he can absorb anything out of his range

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Ah I see

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well when does he use this move as a first move or later in the fight and does it take time to charge? And yes goku does one shot in blue.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Well when does he use this move as a first move or later in the fight and does it take time to charge?

Which move?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Well when does he use this move as a first move or later in the fight and does it take time to charge? And yes goku does one shot in blue.

One shotting takes a 7.5 times difference, and this isn’t the case, I thought we already went over that. The multipliers are inconsistent or unknown, so we can’t use them to get a definitive difference between their power. It’s at least a 7.02 times difference

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Which move?

mmvc

One shotting takes a 7.5 times difference, and this isn’t the case, I thought we already went over that. The multipliers are inconsistent or unknown, so we can’t use them to get a definitive difference between their power. It’s at least a 7.02 times difference

I can't believe you actually think this bullshit, listen man, what is inconsistent is the amount of power gained when they transform not the power or portrayal of the form itself, this is what the wiki says you know. We know for a fact that SSJ is far stronger than kaioken 20x, and we know that SSJ2 is far stronger than SSJ to where it turns a stomp around, and SSJ3 is even stronger than that compared to SSJ2. SSG is far far above SSJ3 and is bigger than the 50x SSJ boost by itself, SSB is basically SSG power + SSJ which means it's like 2 SSJs combined. I know it's multiplier stacking but this is only to prove a point, what I mean is that it is acceptable to declare that a character can win even without a number, like if 2 characters fight and they both scale to the same number but one is baseline and the other stomped a character that scales to the same number then we don't conclude that the character is "at least stronger", it's enough to say the other character stomps. In this case goku has such a stupidly wide scaling chain that it's asinine to declare that he can't one shot.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

mmvc

I can't believe you actually think this bullshit, listen man, what is inconsistent is the amount of power gained when they transform not the power or portrayal of the form itself, this is what the wiki says you know. We know for a fact that SSJ is far stronger than kaioken 20x, and we know that SSJ2 is far stronger than SSJ to where it turns a stomp around, and SSJ3 is even stronger than that compared to SSJ2. SSG is far far above SSJ3 and is bigger than the 50x SSJ boost by itself, SSB is basically SSG power + SSJ which means it's like 2 SSJs combined. I know it's multiplier stacking but this is only to prove a point, what I mean is that it is acceptable to declare that a character can win even without a number, like if 2 characters fight and they both scale to the same number but one is baseline and the other stomped a character that scales to the same number then we don't conclude that the character is "at least stronger", it's enough to say the other character stomps. In this case goku has such a stupidly wide scaling chain that it's asinine to declare that he can't one shot.

Simon has a large number of abilities which are capable of closing the gap if the fight were to go on long enough. Simon has Reactive Evolution which he can use to continuously get stronger during a fight, not a problem, Goku can do that too. But this RE is activated through empowerment, which is very dependent on willpower, in this case, Simon has a supernatural amount of it. So he has access to larger amounts of spiral power along the fight as it continues. Simon also has access to the universe’s spiral shaped galaxies which are also loaded with spiral power, as the universe holds the power of evolution itself. Simon also has awakened power, which is potent enough to turn a stomp around. In his fight with Granzeboma, he couldn’t damage it even a little bit, but with strong emotions, he turned it around, and begun to win. SGGL, also has Low-Mid Regen, which can restore limbs. Simon clearly isn’t staying in the dust forever

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Yeah, SGGL could just regenerate from some of the wounds Goku gives him, and his absorption is passive.

mmvc

It takes a while to charge up, but he still has the shield to protect him from Goku, long enough for him to fire.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

It takes a while to charge up, but he still has the shield to protect him from Goku, long enough for him to fire.

Simon absorbs and evolves in the meantime, but I feel like Goku would still be able to disrupt the charging time. And I don’t think the absorption is passive, Simon so far has had to selectively absorb

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Goku has a massive gap of at least tens of times low balling, can simon amp tens of times in 3 seconds while goku is figuring out that he needs to slide his ass to win?

Simon also has access to the universe’s spiral shaped galaxies which are also loaded with spiral power, as the universe holds the power of evolution itself.

Does he do this constantly or passively or only somethimes or when in trouble and how big is the boost?

Simon also has awakened power, which is potent enough to turn a stomp around. In his fight with Granzeboma, he couldn’t damage it even a little bit, but with strong emotions, he turned it around, and begun to win.

Sorry this sounds like plot armour, is this an actual ability?

SGGL, also has Low-Mid Regen, which can restore limbs.

Goku still slaps. (if the gap doesn't close)

It takes a while to charge up, but he still has the shield to protect him from Goku, long enough for him to fire.

If simon does that then it's more to his detriment since he's standing still allowing goku to clap him while he's charging his attack which goku has plenty of AP to ensure he destroys simon in one attack along with his shield.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Does he do this constantly or passively or only somethimes or when in trouble and how big is the boost?

His evolution is passive. Spiral being’s powers are connected to the universe itself, every spiral being evolves with the universe even if they haven’t unlocked the power of the spiral. Having access to spiral power is an evolution boost. Keep in mind, Simon absorbing a solar system sized sea boosted him from Planet level to Universe level. If he absorbs any universe level energy blast, he would stomp his previous self

Sorry this sounds like plot armour, is this an actual ability?

Yes, everyone in TTGL has it. Awakened power is directly tied to their will. With strong emotions, their willpower significantly increases, which would also mean their spiral power significantly increases.

Goku still slaps. (if the gap doesn't close)

If he doesn’t have any planetary sized attacks, it’s not going destroy a large part of SGGL, albeit, SGGL would still get heavily damaged, but nothing his regeneration can’t do

If simon does that then it's more to his detriment since he's standing still allowing goku to clap him while he's charging his attack which goku has plenty of AP to ensure he destroys simon in one attack along with his shield.

Simon doesn’t start like this, he normally starts H2H, which if he did keep up for a long time, he would eventually have gathered enough energy to fight on par, if not, become superior. Because even one universe level energy attack, Simon would gain a massive boost, considering what a 4-B sized sea did for him

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

His evolution is passive. Spiral being’s powers are connected to the universe itself, every spiral being evolves with the universe even if they haven’t unlocked the power of the spiral. Having access to spiral power is an evolution boost. Keep in mind, Simon absorbing a solar system sized sea boosted him from Planet level to Universe level. If he absorbs any universe level energy blast, he would stomp his previous self

That's not how it works, goku uses a tiny fraction of his power in ki blasts, barely any, simon is already universal his power won't be boosted by much if anything at all. I just wanna know how much his evolution makes him stronger, you said he absorbed a bunch of spiral energy but that isn't the same ability, that solar system of energy had universal amounts of power which is different from the ability you're speaking of of constant improvement, please do clarify this.

Yes, everyone in TTGL has it. Awakened power is directly tied to their will. With strong emotions, their willpower significantly increases, which would also mean their spiral power significantly increases.

I doubt that simon would get any emotional power boosts before goku one shots in that short time frame of this fight which would last like 3 seconds max because goku punches gg.

If he doesn’t have any planetary sized attacks, it’s not going destroy a large part of SGGL, albeit, SGGL would still get heavily damaged, but nothing his regeneration can’t do

Goku punching him is enough, DB characters usually suppress their destructive capacity but if they wanted they can make a punch destroy a planet like beerus one tapping a planet or him and champa jumping from planet to planet destroying them. So goku could split simon in half with a punch if he wanted.

Simon doesn’t start like this, he normally starts H2H, which if he did keep up for a long time, he would eventually have gathered enough energy to fight on par, if not, become superior. Because even one universe level energy attack, Simon would gain a massive boost, considering what a 4-B sized sea did for him

GG if he starts hand to hand. Also maths bro. Simon absorbed universal level amounts of energy and became universal, if he did that again then he'd only be 2x stronger, goku barely uses any ki in ki blasts because he can spam them, he'd barely get any stronger if he absorbed ki blasts, only that he loses immediately because of the AP advantage.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

That's not how it works, goku uses a tiny fraction of his power in ki blasts, barely any, simon is already universal his power won't be boosted by much if anything at all. I just wanna know how much his evolution makes him stronger, you said he absorbed a bunch of spiral energy but that isn't the same ability, that solar system of energy had universal amounts of power which is different from the ability you're speaking of of constant improvement, please do clarify this.

Those ki blasts are still universal because it can damage such characters, even if it is just a little bit. Simon has 2 reactive evolutions, one because of being a spiral being, who evolves along with the universe, and another because of him unlocking the power of the spiral. The potency of his reaction evolution varies depending on his willpower, like I said before. Awakened Power which is an ability that heightens one’s abilities from strong emotions, directly impact Simon’s already supernatural willpower, which does make him way stronger, because this ability is also connected to empowerment. He turned a fight around, against someone he couldn’t damage one bit, into a fight where he was overpowering his opponent, all because of his sudden increase of willpower

I doubt that simon would get any emotional power boosts before goku one shots in that short time frame of this fight which would last like 3 seconds max because goku punches gg.

He would still be able to regenerate from that damage, because it isn’t like Goku’s punches completely obliterate a single body part. It’s also very dependent on stamina, which is also dependent on spiral power. So his universal spiral power, would mean his stamina is immense. Even early on in the series, Kamina, who’s city level, could keep fighting, even though there was a large stab through his upper body

Goku punching him is enough, DB characters usually suppress their destructive capacity but if they wanted they can make a punch destroy a planet like beerus one tapping a planet or him and champa jumping from planet to planet destroying them. So goku could split simon in half with a punch if he wanted.

Simon is Universe level, let’s not forget that. SGGL is a planet sized mecha with universal power. Not to mention Goku would have to get really close to heavily damage Simon, which would be difficult, because SGGL is Thousands of Kilometers in size, and combat speed would be equal

GG if he starts hand to hand. Also maths bro. Simon absorbed universal level amounts of energy and became universal, if he did that again then he'd only be 2x stronger, goku barely uses any ki in ki blasts because he can spam them, he'd barely get any stronger if he absorbed ki blasts, only that he loses immediately because of the AP advantage.

Last time I checked, if we did maths and a 5-B character gained 4-B amounts of energy, that character would be 4-B, not 3-A. So the math thing doesn’t work, because clearly Simon would be able to output much more power, compared to how much the energy he absorbed puts out

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Those ki blasts are still universal because it can damage such characters, even if it is just a little bit. Simon has 2 reactive evolutions, one because of being a spiral being, who evolves along with the universe, and another because of him unlocking the power of the spiral. The potency of his reaction evolution varies depending on his willpower, like I said before. Awakened Power which is an ability that heightens one’s abilities from strong emotions, directly impact Simon’s already supernatural willpower, which does make him way stronger, because this ability is also connected to empowerment. He turned a fight around, against someone he couldn’t damage one bit, into a fight where he was overpowering his opponent, all because of his sudden increase of willpower

The blast itself is universal AP but the energy in it is tiny since it barely effects goku's reserves. So 1 type is him constantly getting stronger and the other is him getting stronger via will power I see. I wanna know the potency of the passive one, the second one I don't see coming into play since the fight ends immediately after goku lands an attack so simon doesn't have time to get motivated lol. Also Goku is like far FAR stronger than simon like far far stronger, like if you want a number, then if we substitute SSG for SSJ then at SSB goku would be at least 350 times stronger low balling (it's logically much bigger but I am multiplier stacking but what I am saying is still true it's just a visual representation). So that evolution needs to be very potent to both catch up to goku's dummy high AP gap and his own reactive evolution.

He would still be able to regenerate from that damage, because it isn’t like Goku’s punches completely obliterate a single body part. It’s also very dependent on stamina, which is also dependent on spiral power. So his universal spiral power, would mean his stamina is immense. Even early on in the series, Kamina, who’s city level, could keep fighting, even though there was a large stab through his upper body

Simon cannot survive violent fragmentation and that's what happens when DB characters don't suppress destructive capacity when using physicals you can see this happening in the final attack that goku did against moro.

Simon is Universe level, let’s not forget that.

Um, so...?

SGGL is a planet sized mecha with universal power. Not to mention Goku would have to get really close to heavily damage Simon, which would be difficult, because SGGL is Thousands of Kilometers in size, and combat speed would be equal

Goku can move sextillions of light years in seconds, and fight starts at 4km, speed equalized. Goku has no issue crossing the distance, and since simon starts with hand to hand then goku can just take advantage of that to attack him.

Last time I checked, if we did maths and a 5-B character gained 4-B amounts of energy, that character would be 4-B, not 3-A. So the math thing doesn’t work, because clearly Simon would be able to output much more power, compared to how much the energy he absorbed puts out

WTF just because the size of the energy is 4-B doesn't mean the energy it self is 4-B quantity... bruh the energy is 3-A.