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So Long 2-B Mario... (Potentially BIG downgrade for SPM feats)

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Thanks for taking a look at the thread.

It took some space but it's mostly hollow in new or relevant things, so you can read it all if you have the time.
 
As of right now, I think Fox is making a lot of sense. I'll be onboard with this if we can also get someone from the site to cross-check the translations. It seems pretty clear cut to me that the English version says something that is completely different than the Japanese version, as far as semantics go, which is what we are focusing on right now. Without the English version, there is no reason for the ratings to stay, because if we consider the Japanese only (assuming that the translations are correct), I don't see any basis or justification for the current rating.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm still working on more elaborate rebuttals, but for now. I think this scan is important.

The actual English developers actually worked on the story alongside the chief director to make sure the localizations are accurate especially the lore details.

But I have to go to work again for now.
Click to expand...
Considering they use phrases such as "as fun as possible" when it comes to describing the story and translation, it seems to be focusing more on how they translated the game's text to English demographics in order to keep the soul and personality of the series in English, and less express story & cosmology factoids in the translation being uber accurate.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm still working on more elaborate rebuttals, but for now. I think this scan is important.

The actual English developers actually worked on the story alongside the chief director to make sure the localizations are accurate especially the lore details.
Click to expand...
That's pretty meaningless, it just says they did work on it to have it be as fun as possible, which anyone would of course do. This doesn't mean both versions are canon, by that logic any product whose creators worked in localizations of it has all those versions be canon and worth looking into. This is not the first time you grabbed into things that don't mean what you used them for, I hope your rebuttals aren't full of that.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
It goes likes this:

Antasma and Bowser use the Dreambeats to lure people to sleep. We see little orbs fly into the Dream Stone. Antasma said they're powering the Dream Stone up with orbs that are "the power of dreams" or something and then they create a castle and barrier with it. But just to be sure I'll check the Japanese version again.
Click to expand...


Here is the Japanese version for anyone willing to translate that scene too.

This is the following scene as well with Antasma explaining them using it for wishes:


Looking at it myself it doesn't look like anything directly supporting the dream orbs to be equivalent to the energy to produce the full-scale dream worlds in the Japanese version, unlike the English version. The dream orbs also appear visually different than the dream worlds that appear in Mario Party 5 as well, if that's not obvious.
 
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I'm gonna be honest, my interest in this has faded. Besides, I don't think there's a point to bringing up more scans if people are just gonna continue arguing off of the basis of the English translations, which literally have a mistranslation in the final release as I've said multiple times now.

If we take into account that the English version is definitely prone to mistakes now and just look at the source material, everything is very vague to where people could interpret it to support multiversal stats, but Mario translations being vague has been the case with so many threads now and I feel like we have to establish a consistency with how we treat the verse. In other threads, these arguments of "well worlds totally mean universes believe me guys" got shredded apart with skepticism and deemed too interpretive to justify an actual upgrade. In the Japanese version of SPM, these same problems are prevalent and I feel the other side are just intrinsically biased toward the English version as it's what's been known for the longest and what everyone's familiar with, but there can be no doubt. I've confirmed with translators on Reddit. Most of my translations are indeed pretty accurate. Some of them I missed some context for. No translation is going to be perfect as japanese is a creative language that expresses many things in such little space.

The main issue is that literally all of the arguments in favor of support have already been tackled in some form and it feels like people aren't seeing every point I make and picking out certain things that just prolong the argument more, such as Weeb mentioning the dimensional doors could've been used for the characters traveling to worlds, but apparently not seeing I said dimensional doors literally couldn't have been used as they only appear for Mario placing a Pure Heart and disappear once he walks through. The Tower using "dimensional energy" or whatever means literally nothing. It's literally just talking about the spatial sense of dimensions, and the energy of dimensions in a spatial sense is literally some abstract energy not proof of universes. We know it's spatial because the dialogue after mentioning the channeling dimensional energy thing literally says "creates shortcuts/warps/beams" you to other worlds. And no, "worlds" being used does NOT automatically mean separate universes, and I still don't see good evidence that proves they are. My evidence is so much stronger which proves they're all connected, such as the Japanese name for 7-1, NPCs traveling among the worlds, these worlds all knowing of the same cartoon and enjoying it, seeing the Planet and the space from Chapter 4 when getting launched from 7-3, etc. There's too many inconsistencies otherwise. Remember, we don't have these English quotes anymore as they either don't exist or are an interpretive translation of the Japanese which we've seen can be wrong in the fact that dialogue in the game refers to a planet as a star, a common error with Japanese to English translations.

I don't have much more to add that I haven't already said. I think people are desperately trying to hold on to these ratings for whatever reason when there's so much against them.

And I still think the Dream Stone and Dreamy Bowser arguments are a bit weak. It's not made of Dreams and the "power of dreams" is just the Dream Orbs which are literally just random things created from dreams. The Orbs are NOT the dreams themselves nor can we reasonably say they have the relative energy of an entire universe for literally no reason because, again, they are NOT dreams. The fact Antasma says they are created when people are actively already dreaming is enough context to show this. If they consumed dreams in their entirety then the Dream World segment literally right afterwards would not have been able to occur and Mario would have been consumed/absorbed by the Dream Stone in Luigi's dream. Unless someone makes a really good argument this seems like a very blatant downgrade.

Anyways, I probably won't post beyond this. I've already provided the evidence with scans and backed it up with translators on Reddit unless this is ALSO considered "not properly evaluated" for whatever reason. There's just so much against the interpretation that the original language is referring to a multiverse when you look at all the context I've provided and I can't simply ignore that myself. But if you guys want to, go ahead. I'm fine with a dubious Multiversal rating since it keeps the verse strong. I win regardless.
 
@Foxthefox1000 Okay, seriously; please chill. You already gotten some of the users in this thread in favor of your proposed changes, but not everyone in this thread is gonna agree with everything you say, so you need to be open-minded and respect other people's opinions when they bring up valid points.

Don't get the wrong idea here; I'm not whole-heartedly against your suggestions for the revisions. As I told you, I do agree that the dimensions part of your first post is a bit more of a 2-C feat. And as for the Universe/Space part of your OP, I think it'd be a Low 2-C feat.

But like Executor said...
Executor_N0 said:
Simply because something is called "Universe" doesn't mean that it's only High 3-A/Low 2-C.

The Tiering system is based on the complexity of a structure, not its name. If someone takes an infinite-dimensional space and names it a city block, this would not mean that it's only a City Block level. If something is called a "Universe" or "World" and that structure fits with our definition of multiversal, complex multiversal, or outerversal, then that is what it will be.
Click to expand...
And from the words of DDM...
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But yes, it clearly takes place in a different world/dimension from the one Mario came from. Plus as Executor mentioned above, "World", "Dimension", and "Universe" all have interchangeable definitions with some loose details and baselines. World can mean Country/Kingdom, Planet Earth, the Universe, an Emprire/Civilization with variable size that could range anywhere in between, or multiverse. Dimension typically refers to spatiotemporal stuff; not specifically spatiotemporal dimensions but it either means pocket reality or Universe. Though world usually means either planet Earth or Universe, and can mean pocket reality. But I don't think countless number of High 3-A sized pocket realities are a common assumption. Also, as Executor mentioned, Japanese is also very hard to distinguish plurals from singulars. Meaning all the translations that said "Suck up the entire world" could have meant "Suck up the entire Worlds". And thus multiple universes.

Also, to address the allegations Eficiente made about me overlooking something. I did not overlook the scan I found, while it does say "universe" as opposed to Universes or Multiverses. He's literally saying the very thing Executor noted you should never do. Plus, key word is "And all dimensions within it". Again, dimensions is literally plural. Plus it clearly means Universe in terms of "All time and Space". Saying it destroys 2 or 3 universes but not the entire multiverse would be a Golden Mean fallacy. But we clearly see more than one "World" or "Dimension" get effected, meaning it's unlikely to just mean Low 2-C or 2-C and that the entire multiverse of Mario's cosmology is easily being effected.

Furthermore, we need consistency. Keep in mind, World 4 alone was also called a world/dimension; the latter only at the beginning though. And it's official Japanese name alone is daiuchu, literally meaning "The Universe". So World 4 alone is Universe sized and has multiple "Endless" or "Infinite" statements. It's not consistent for that to be the only one of the 8 objective worlds that isn't a Universe. Plus Merlumina describing them as basically parallel worlds further emphasizes this. Calling them "Worlds" instead of "Dimensions" means absolutely nothing when they contextually mean the same thing. The other 6 worlds can't just be random planets within the same "World/Universe" as World 4 also has part 2 being a planet landed on as well as the edge of the universe being a stage within it. It wouldn't be called "Worlds" instead "Parts of the world" if that was the case. Makes no sense for a much larger portion to be held in the same banner. That would be like if going all over Asia was chapter 4's world in another game while every other world were just random countries within Asia being called worlds on the same sentence as the whole continent itself.

Also, there is evidence that World 1 and World 2 are clearly not Planet Earth or Mushroom Kingdom. See here. World 1 and World 2 have different starry sky structures; within Mario's Universe, the starry skies have relatively similar design and not planet has the skies shaped like math formulas or string theory symbols. But World 1 and World 2 respectively do. These are 1st hints World 1 and World 2 are different bodies of space or even Universe. Combine that that World 4 has traditional starry backgrounds combined with it being a confirmed Universe. Now the next nail in the coffin is World 6, details and references to different worlds are just that, references. It just means World 6 has their own versions of TTYD party or artifacts that look like different worlds artifacts. Not that it's the same universe let alone planet as those other worlds. To further emphases this, visual demonstrations are even better than statements. It cannot be denied that when the Void nukes World 6, it doesn't just destroy the kingdom, but also all the stars in the sky leaving nothing but a blank white background. Which means one of two things, World 6 either takes place in a Tier 4 sized pocket reality, or an entire universe. And a completely different planet from all the less. Keep in mind, nuking all those stars in the background would actually just make galaxies visible, implying it also nuked any galaxies too. So the lowest it could be interpreted is a 3-B feat if we're going to assume it's the body of space as all the rest. But Worlds 1, 2, 4, and 6 are more likely different realities altogether. Especially World 7, which the entire premise is that it's an afterlife. Everyone knows World 7 is basically the Mario multiverse's version of Heaven and Hell being treated as its own world. But even people from other dimensions are implied to go there when they die, including Mario's and people from Flipside. Yes, Flipside is a town, but its also located in its own dimension. Also, even before entering World 6, Merlon makes mention that other worlds might have already been consumed by the void. Which the purpose of Sammer Kingdom's destruction exists to prove his theory right. And as for Bowser jumping off what appears to be an Earth like planet in World 7, it just means Heaven in Mario is located on A planet, much like Dragon Ball's version of Heaven, but that does NOT prove Mario's Universe version of Heaven is physically located on Earth or Mushroom Kingdom. World 7 as a whole is still different from all the rest. Same with Hell having it's own unique sky structure.

I am not the most interested to discuss Dream Team cosmology, but Super Paper Mario still has 2-B shenanigans and clearly effects the entire cosmology. And I never agreed with Tribe of Darkness's own dimension not being a dimension. It's the exact same feat as the Sammer Kingdom one. And when a Void reaches a dimension, it nukes everything; stars in the sky, galaxy that would be visible in the background, "All time and space" everything. And Executor is 100% right on the time flow stuff.
Click to expand...
Again, as I mentioned before, there is this page which compares and contrasts "universe" and "world". And going back to XXKINGXX69's rebuttal...
XXKINGXX69 said:
All worlds refer to everything that is considered a world, which includes universes
Click to expand...
I feel as though you're failing to realize these points. Just because not everyone is in your favor doesn't mean you should give up like that and act like you won.
 
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Mephistus said:
I found a couple of scans that should help support the case for 2-B tier for SPM found only within the Japanese version. These are in the process of being translated.

Click to expand...





Here are the translations for the images. I expect this should help the case for the Japanese version to be mirroring the English version in that the scope is very clearly going to destroy the multiverse, not just a single universe.

Edit: Here are also addition supporting scans here that I have machine translated.

Edit2: Another important supporting scan here I have machine translated from Nastasia, who is aware of Count Bleck's whole plan, showing that narratively Peach just travelling back to her home dimension where she was taken and came from with a dimensional flip wouldn't keep her safe from the Void.
 
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Mephistus said:
I expect this should help the case for the Japanese version to be mirroring the English version in that the scope is very clearly going to destroy the multiverse, not just a single universe.
Click to expand...
Nothing about this suggest that the scope of what was going to be destroyed is of multiversal scale, or anything like that. Nothing that could even be associated with that is even referenced or mentioned.
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
The Whoa Zone is also larger than space itself. The void was going to erase this, by the way, which is more evidence of scaling to the whole cosmology
Click to expand...
I just want to note here, being "beyond" something does not mean you are superior to that thing, the same way that astronauts who go into orbit are "beyond" the Earth, but aren't superior to it. The word "Beyond" literally means "outside of" or "to the further side" of something. I don't know where this idea that being outside of spacetime means you are qualitatively superior to it came from, but it self evidently doesn't make sense without any further context.

Oh, and I agree with Fox btw.
 
Swerzye29038 said:
Nothing about this suggest that the scope of what was going to be destroyed is of multiversal scale, or anything like that. Nothing that could even be associated with that is even referenced or mentioned.
Click to expand...

The prophecy involves "everything" in context being destroyed; being that Bleck travels to a dimension (Mario's) involved in said prophecy, it's not hard to put two and two together that this dimension is involved in that inclusive word of "everything".

"World as we know it" is with Bleck addressing not just himself there, but with the "we" as in Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, the random Koopas, the random Goombas, etc, that inhabit Mario's dimension that the OP is theorizing that that would be untouched if Bleck's goal was just kill off an entirely separate universe from Mario's dimension, yet all these guys in Mario's universe are clearly aware of the dimension they live in and addressed/threatened that the world they are aware of is going to end.

If the dimensional hole (void) is only in one universe as Fox proposes and uses in his OP translations, then there wouldn't be more than one hole visible that would end up expanding into what was intended for it to destroy. Since there is referenced as multiple different holes visible outside of just the one hole visible in the Overthere, this clears up that the places visited through the doors (worlds) are visually and dimensionally separate since beings in those worlds see different holes depending on where they are at. The fact that its reaching into an entirely different space of Flipside/Flopside that shouldn't be located in a single universes space, and that'd make another hole entirely unaccounted for.

This is also coming off that reddit translation with Mario's dimension referenced as "a world" by Merlon, and that the Japanese lines Merlon follows with can easily translate over as plural as "worlds" instead of merely singular "world" for "sekai". Which would mean the Japanese context carries over as plural universes being threatened with "every/all worlds", same as the English version.
 
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Mephistus said:
The prophecy involves "everything" in context being destroyed; being that Bleck travels to a dimension (Mario's) involved in said prophecy, it's not hard to put two and two together that this dimension is involved in that inclusive word of "everything".
Click to expand...
The post you sent does not support the conclusion that the word "everything" is referring to multiple universes or a multiverse. In fact, it doesn't even mention anything related to multiples at all. Everything translated is singular in nature.

"Thus, swallow everything, just as foretold by prophecy, and destroy this corrupted world!"

"In accordance with the book of prophecy, I have come to this dimension!!"

"I shall take her back to my castle, and use her as I please to destroy the world as we know it!"

"You're going to... destroy the world!?"

"To lead the brave souls here to this world... to save this world from destruction!"

The words "swallow everything" is not indictive of "other" universes being destroyed, and this idea that the word "everything" is referencing a vague, off-screen multiverse + Mario's universe is both unsupported, and quite frankly, ridiculous.
Mephistus said:
"World as we know it" is with Bleck addressing not just himself there, but with the "we" as in Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, the random Koopas, the random Goombas, etc,
Click to expand...
Ok?
Mephistus said:
the OP is theorizing that that would be untouched if Bleck's goal was just kill off an entirely separate universe from Mario's dimension, yet all these guys in Mario's universe are clearly aware of the dimension they live in and addressed/threatened that the world they are aware of is going to end.
Click to expand...
Based on the arguments I've read from OP, his argument is that the threat wasn't multiversal, therefore 2-B is unwarranted; not that Mario's world wasn't going to be destroyed. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.
Mephistus said:
If the dimensional hole (void) is only in one universe as Fox proposes and uses in his OP translations, then there wouldn't be more than one hole visible that would end up expanding into what was intended for it to destroy.
Click to expand...
There is no evidence in the original material that the addition of extra holes opposed to using one is correlated to there being different universes involved. The Quote reads:

"Not just here, but all over the world the holes in the sky have disappeared, and all has become peaceful."

Once again, this is only referring to a singular world. If there were other universes then they would've made that clear, but evidently there isn't. You are literally in disagreement with the narrative of the video game.
Mephistus said:
Since there is referenced as multiple different holes visible outside of just the one hole visible in the Overthere, this clears up that the places visited through the doors (worlds) are visually and dimensionally separate since beings in those worlds see different holes depending on where they are at.
Click to expand...
1. See above

2. The OP addressed this long ago, and it was simply ignored:

Foxthefox1000 said:
Weeb mentioning the dimensional doors could've been used for the characters traveling to worlds, but apparently not seeing I said dimensional doors literally couldn't have been used as they only appear for Mario placing a Pure Heart and disappear once he walks through. The Tower using "dimensional energy" or whatever means literally nothing. It's literally just talking about the spatial sense of dimensions, and the energy of dimensions in a spatial sense is literally some abstract energy not proof of universes. We know it's spatial because the dialogue after mentioning the channeling dimensional energy thing literally says "creates shortcuts/warps/beams" you to other worlds. And no, "worlds" being used does NOT automatically mean separate universes, and I still don't see good evidence that proves they are. My evidence is so much stronger which proves they're all connected, such as the Japanese name for 7-1, NPCs traveling among the worlds, these worlds all knowing of the same cartoon and enjoying it, seeing the Planet and the space from Chapter 4 when getting launched from 7-3, etc. There's too many inconsistencies otherwise. Remember, we don't have these English quotes anymore as they either don't exist or are an interpretive translation of the Japanese which we've seen can be wrong in the fact that dialogue in the game refers to a planet as a star, a common error with Japanese to English translations.
Click to expand...
I don't see why this is even being discussed. There is absolutely no evidence that "Worlds" = "Alternate Universes" in the context you are proposing that it does, even if you do believe that Mario should be 2-B. Likewise, the post you yourself sent shows a statement that separates a "dimension" and "world" as two different things.

"Thus, swallow everything, just as foretold by prophecy, and destroy this corrupted world!"

"In accordance with the book of prophecy, I have come to this dimension!!"

Mephistus said:
This is also coming off that reddit translation with Mario's dimension referenced as "a world" by Merlon, and that the Japanese lines Merlon follows with can easily translate over as plural as "worlds" instead of merely singular "world" for "sekai". Which would mean the Japanese context carries over as plural universes being threatened with "every/all worlds", same as the English version.
Click to expand...
just because it could translate over to different "worlds" doesn't mean it does translate over. Likewise, That wouldn't make sense for some of these

"Thus, swallow everything, just as foretold by prophecy, and destroy this corrupted world!" (could only be referring to a singular thing)

"In accordance with the book of prophecy, I have come to this dimension!!" (Again, this could only possibly be referring to one thing)

"To lead the brave souls here to this world... to save this world from destruction!" (same as above)

Now that I've actually engaged in the discussion instead of peering over the thread, I now understand the OP's frustration. That is, people are more concerned with holding onto bias and exaggerated statistics so that their favorite character can win on battle-boarding sites, no matter how far fetched or nonsensical their "scaling" is, opposed to having truthful and accurate tiering of characters.

In other words, who cares if Mario can't beat Goku or Saint Seiya? Who cares if Mario may or may not be Massively FTL+? The point is you enjoy the character, and you don't have to wank him in order to be satisfied with who/what he is as a character.
 
I agree about that the translations do not seem to explicitly mention a 2-B structure, just imply that several universes are threatened.
Mephistus said:
I found a couple of scans that should help support the case for 2-B tier for SPM found only within the Japanese version. These are in the process of being translated.

Click to expand...

Mephistus said:


Here are the translations for the images. I expect this should help the case for the Japanese version to be mirroring the English version in that the scope is very clearly going to destroy the multiverse, not just a single universe.
Click to expand...

@Maverick_Zero_X @Newendigo @The_real_cal_howard @Ryukama @DarkDragonMedeus @Crazylatin77 @Starter_Pack @Psychomaster35 @GyroNutz @ElixirBlue @Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou) @LuckyEmile @I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die @CrimsonStarFallen @Vrokorta @Bobsican @EMagoIorSouI @Robot972 @DatOneWeeb @SamanPatou @AKM sama

What do you think that we should do here?
 
character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com

Mario (Canon)/Metal875

Mario is the main protagonist of the Super Mario Bros. franchise. He normally fights against the main antagonist, Bowser, with the help of his brother and sidekick, Luigi, in order to save the damsel, Princess Peach. Mario has also encountered many other friends and foes, but Bowser, Peach...
character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com
Sorry to bring this up , but this profile is unusable right??
 
Most of the translations don't seem to support it yeah; saying world as opposed to "worlds" but again; that technically means both translations are uncertain since Kanji is written in ways where it's nearly impossible to determine if any specific word is meant to be plural. Also, just because one or two translations are unreliable; such as saying star as opposed to planet, doesn't mean the rest of it is unreliable. Plus, the book of the Dark Prognosticus still mentions dimensions being plural or the term "This dimension" literally implies the void effects multiple dimensions in the first place. Plus, Everything cannot just mean two or three universes; it has to either mean Low 2-C or the entire multiverse. But if spoken by someone who is well aware of the existence of more than one universe and/or the void destroying "The Universe" or "Swallowing everything up into the void" has range that is clearly 2 universes at minimum. Then it would have to be the latter.

Of course, I'm still in the middle of crafting the parts of commenting all the previous posts bit by bit. It's even acknowledged in the OP that Mario's Universe is different from the Universe Flipside takes place it. So if Bleck needed to go to that dimension to even start the void in the first place; needing to travel all the way to Universe 2 just to created a "Void between dimensions" just to devourer Universe 1, then it is clearly a multiversal void and cannot simply be a Low 2-C void. Process of elimination makes Mephitis in the right here. Also, keep in mind, Merlon is a character who has been around since the original Paper Mario, meaning he has been to Mario's Universe multiple times and is well aware of the existence of more than one dimension/universe. So if he believes everything is going to be devoured, it more so means more than one world. Not to mention, even by lore, the Mushroom Kingdom is also one of the many "Worlds" that can be traveled to from Flipside.
 
Okay. I suppose that this revision might pass then. It would be best if we wait for further input first though.
 
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com

Mario (Canon)/Metal875

Mario is the main protagonist of the Super Mario Bros. franchise. He normally fights against the main antagonist, Bowser, with the help of his brother and sidekick, Luigi, in order to save the damsel, Princess Peach. Mario has also encountered many other friends and foes, but Bowser, Peach...
character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com
Sorry to bring this up , but this profile is unusable right??
Click to expand...
Some of it might be decent for using feats but its mostly wank as balls and off topic so

¯\(ツ)/¯​

 
You know what? I take back what I said. I don't think any of that page would be helpful.
 
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