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I'm currently working on a rebuttal and so are others, most notably LuckyEmile. But I will be there.
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So Long 2-B Mario... (Potentially BIG downgrade for SPM feats)
- Thread starter Foxthefox1000
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- #44
Nothing that is said will take away from the fact the "all dimensions, all worlds" statement doesn't exist in Japanese. You can't just add it. This downgrades the feat entirely no matter what.
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FoxySonicMaster108
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I’m neutral on this for now, leaning towards disagree atm, also, how was this translated?
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FoxySonicMaster108
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Never mind, after what Weeb has had to say I hard disagree. This is why you don’t use Google Translate.
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I've already countered Weeb's points even beyond the translations. But it doesn't take much to see very clearly the lack of "dimension" in the Japanese, being instead replaced with sekai literally everywhere.
This gives us no proof these worlds are different universes. We're to assume such because of "Dimensional Doors" (again, I guess Galaxy 2 has us traveling to different universes too now) and the Void being a hole in the dimensional fabric of space? We need more explicit proof beyond that to confirm.
And as someone else brought up, The Whoa Zone is outside of space, and sure enough, it's the only place The Void cannot be seen at all within the game, proving only a single universe is affected. Couples with the numerous story briefings that Bleck just wanted to destroy the universe it seems more consistent.
This gives us no proof these worlds are different universes. We're to assume such because of "Dimensional Doors" (again, I guess Galaxy 2 has us traveling to different universes too now) and the Void being a hole in the dimensional fabric of space? We need more explicit proof beyond that to confirm.
And as someone else brought up, The Whoa Zone is outside of space, and sure enough, it's the only place The Void cannot be seen at all within the game, proving only a single universe is affected. Couples with the numerous story briefings that Bleck just wanted to destroy the universe it seems more consistent.
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Here's a translation from reddit confirming what I said
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I meant to include a Merlon and Tippi conversation there. I gotta stop doing these when I'm tired. I'll try and get that
The rest are all the game just saying "the universe/space"
The rest are all the game just saying "the universe/space"
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- #52
Monster thing confirmed. "The Road Out of Space" is the Space Byway" which leads to the Whoa Zone, so I think that confirms what the English thing said about the Whoa Zone being outside space. No Void there is more proof only the universe was being affected.
That credible enough for y'all?
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"Travel between the dimensions" implies that they're not even part of the same universe. That sounds more like the word universe there actually meant multiverse. A universe can't have many parallel dimensions, thats self contradictory
They are not random mystical orbs, they are what form the universes. Dreams create universes, dream stone has the power of those dreams
Whats the other definition then?
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The orbs don't create the dreams nor do they form universes? The dreams create these orbs contradicting the orbs being dreams that are universes. The ORBS are what powers the Stone revealed in that cutscene.
This is so silly. I don't know why you're getting likes for spouting nonsense.
This is so silly. I don't know why you're getting likes for spouting nonsense.
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Anyways, I've actually gotten my translations from credible sites and provided the proof. The statement of all dimensions/all worlds/all of existence doesn't exist in the original. This is a downgrade no matter what you try to argue because all you have for "proof" is what the English says. Without the explicit confirmation of every world/dimension/existence itself we can't scale it to countless 2-B
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You disagree that dreams create universes?
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No. I disagree with the notion that these orbs that are byproducts of people dreaming and literally aren't provably universes nor the dreams themselves are somehow good proof for 2-B
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Anyways I'll be sleeping soon so excuse me if I don't reply in the next several hours
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Why do the orbs matter here again? We were just talking about dream power
You also didnt translate all scans of all mentions of "all worlds and dimensions", so I think we should wait till you find them all
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A few things that I want to say here
First, never take the "name of something about how we consider that name to mean" to be the only way to analyze something. In the same way that we don't make something Tier 1-A because it was called "Outerverse", simply because something is called "Universe" doesn't mean that it's only High 3-A/Low 2-C.
The Tiering system is based on the complexity of a structure, not its name. If someone takes an infinite-dimensional space and names it a city block, this would not mean that it's only a City Block level. If something is called a "Universe" or "World" and that structure fits with our definition of multiversal, complex multiversal, or outerversal, then that is what it will be.
I can remember a few instances of authors not using the word "multiverse" because it's a useless word. Universe by definition already means "everything", so having a different word for that same thing isn't a necessity. Even calling something a "Smaller Something" sometimes is more about how to place it in the larger cosmology rather than saying it's small (And yes, I can give examples about all of this).
The kanjis in the words for "Universe" (宇宙) and "World" (世界) originally meant "All of Time" and "All of Space" and its meaning was to say that everything under infinite time and infinite space was "Universe/World". And of course, just to say how complex Japanese can be when you try to fit it into a "battle boarding" mindset, remember that nowadays the word "宇宙" can also simply be used to mean the outer space and not its original "All of the space-time" meaning. So if you have a scene about "Uchu" and it's about the Outerspace... most likely the word "Uchu" is simply being used to describe the Outerspace rather than the space-time structure. See how words can carry different meanings, which changes a lot with context? I even have examples of the meaning not being consistent in a single franchise and different authors having different ideas of what that word means. It can always be complicated.
In fact, remember, Japanese can be vague with plural. Just because something is simply "世界" doesn't mean it's always "World", it could also mean "Worlds". And this also enters in conflict with another word used a lot "すべて" (Subete), a word that can mean both "the entirety of something", "everything", "all of", "all" and much more.
The term used in the first scan from Paper Mario is "世界のすべて" (Sekai no subete). Normally in Japanese the particle "の" is used in possession, normally "Someone's something" with "の" being the " 's ". Of course, I have already seen some people state that it can also be used in the opposite direction, and that can create vagueness, but that isn't necessary here.
In the very way that the language is vague, "世界のすべて" (Sekai no subete) could mean "Everything in the world", or even "Everything in the worlds". In a similar way, if "すべての世界" (Subete no Sekai) was used, it could also mean both "The entire World" and "Every World/All the Worlds" and as expected, it could also be the reason why some official translations can give a different idea of what happens in relation to the original text. The team behind the translation can have got a different idea, they could have simply the need to change and somehow make the game more appealing and things like that. No translation is really created "equally" even by the same person in the same company. That is why it's always necessary to look for context and the various ways of interpreting the work before going to "this is what this means".
I'm explaining this here because I saw a few people complaining about the translation subject and wanted to give more insight into it (Also, I'll be making something similar for Digimon when I have time, so I need to be sure that not everyone hates this...).
Anyway, if the structure "すべての世界" (Subete no Sekai) was used more often I could definitely see that just being the vagueness of plural and it could mean both "the entire world" or "every world", but I didn't see that in any of the scans. Of course, just "Sekai" alone could also mean "Worlds" (Even if the intended translation is also World, worlds within World isn't really something out of the standard), it would depend entirely on how the 'world/s" is structured.
And about that, remember that "same time-flow" doesn't mean "same space-time". The two things are simply unrelated and the flow of time is useless to determine if two "worlds" are separated by space-time as this Wiki considers them. Simply being parallel spaces across an extra-dimensional axis is enough, so the flow of time could perfectly be the same between them, as well as they could be different. In the same way, two different places could have totally different flows of time and still be within the same "space-time" (In a way, all of them could be in and not be in the same space-time depending on what someone means by that, again, that is why understanding the structure is important).
First, never take the "name of something about how we consider that name to mean" to be the only way to analyze something. In the same way that we don't make something Tier 1-A because it was called "Outerverse", simply because something is called "Universe" doesn't mean that it's only High 3-A/Low 2-C.
The Tiering system is based on the complexity of a structure, not its name. If someone takes an infinite-dimensional space and names it a city block, this would not mean that it's only a City Block level. If something is called a "Universe" or "World" and that structure fits with our definition of multiversal, complex multiversal, or outerversal, then that is what it will be.
I can remember a few instances of authors not using the word "multiverse" because it's a useless word. Universe by definition already means "everything", so having a different word for that same thing isn't a necessity. Even calling something a "Smaller Something" sometimes is more about how to place it in the larger cosmology rather than saying it's small (And yes, I can give examples about all of this).
The kanjis in the words for "Universe" (宇宙) and "World" (世界) originally meant "All of Time" and "All of Space" and its meaning was to say that everything under infinite time and infinite space was "Universe/World". And of course, just to say how complex Japanese can be when you try to fit it into a "battle boarding" mindset, remember that nowadays the word "宇宙" can also simply be used to mean the outer space and not its original "All of the space-time" meaning. So if you have a scene about "Uchu" and it's about the Outerspace... most likely the word "Uchu" is simply being used to describe the Outerspace rather than the space-time structure. See how words can carry different meanings, which changes a lot with context? I even have examples of the meaning not being consistent in a single franchise and different authors having different ideas of what that word means. It can always be complicated.
In fact, remember, Japanese can be vague with plural. Just because something is simply "世界" doesn't mean it's always "World", it could also mean "Worlds". And this also enters in conflict with another word used a lot "すべて" (Subete), a word that can mean both "the entirety of something", "everything", "all of", "all" and much more.
The term used in the first scan from Paper Mario is "世界のすべて" (Sekai no subete). Normally in Japanese the particle "の" is used in possession, normally "Someone's something" with "の" being the " 's ". Of course, I have already seen some people state that it can also be used in the opposite direction, and that can create vagueness, but that isn't necessary here.
In the very way that the language is vague, "世界のすべて" (Sekai no subete) could mean "Everything in the world", or even "Everything in the worlds". In a similar way, if "すべての世界" (Subete no Sekai) was used, it could also mean both "The entire World" and "Every World/All the Worlds" and as expected, it could also be the reason why some official translations can give a different idea of what happens in relation to the original text. The team behind the translation can have got a different idea, they could have simply the need to change and somehow make the game more appealing and things like that. No translation is really created "equally" even by the same person in the same company. That is why it's always necessary to look for context and the various ways of interpreting the work before going to "this is what this means".
I'm explaining this here because I saw a few people complaining about the translation subject and wanted to give more insight into it (Also, I'll be making something similar for Digimon when I have time, so I need to be sure that not everyone hates this...).
Anyway, if the structure "すべての世界" (Subete no Sekai) was used more often I could definitely see that just being the vagueness of plural and it could mean both "the entire world" or "every world", but I didn't see that in any of the scans. Of course, just "Sekai" alone could also mean "Worlds" (Even if the intended translation is also World, worlds within World isn't really something out of the standard), it would depend entirely on how the 'world/s" is structured.
And about that, remember that "same time-flow" doesn't mean "same space-time". The two things are simply unrelated and the flow of time is useless to determine if two "worlds" are separated by space-time as this Wiki considers them. Simply being parallel spaces across an extra-dimensional axis is enough, so the flow of time could perfectly be the same between them, as well as they could be different. In the same way, two different places could have totally different flows of time and still be within the same "space-time" (In a way, all of them could be in and not be in the same space-time depending on what someone means by that, again, that is why understanding the structure is important).
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Thank you Executor for all those important details, they help a lot and speak common sense. Also, I had some people translate offsite and this is what we got.
Was translated into this
But yes, it clearly takes place in a different world/dimension from the one Mario came from. Plus as Executor mentioned above, "World", "Dimension", and "Universe" all have interchangeable definitions with some loose details and baselines. World can mean Country/Kingdom, Planet Earth, the Universe, an Emprire/Civilization with variable size that could range anywhere in between, or multiverse. Dimension typically refers to spatiotemporal stuff; not specifically spatiotemporal dimensions but it either means pocket reality or Universe. Though world usually means either planet Earth or Universe, and can mean pocket reality. But I don't think countless number of High 3-A sized pocket realities are a common assumption. Also, as Executor mentioned, Japanese is also very hard to distinguish plurals from singulars. Meaning all the translations that said "Suck up the entire world" could have meant "Suck up the entire Worlds". And thus multiple universes.
Also, to address the allegations Eficiente made about me overlooking something. I did not overlook the scan I found, while it does say "universe" as opposed to Universes or Multiverses. He's literally saying the very thing Executor noted you should never do. Plus, key word is "And all dimensions within it". Again, dimensions is literally plural. Plus it clearly means Universe in terms of "All time and Space". Saying it destroys 2 or 3 universes but not the entire multiverse would be a Golden Mean fallacy. But we clearly see more than one "World" or "Dimension" get effected, meaning it's unlikely to just mean Low 2-C or 2-C and that the entire multiverse of Mario's cosmology is easily being effected.
Furthermore, we need consistency. Keep in mind, World 4 alone was also called a world/dimension; the latter only at the beginning though. And it's official Japanese name alone is daiuchu, literally meaning "The Universe". So World 4 alone is Universe sized and has multiple "Endless" or "Infinite" statements. It's not consistent for that to be the only one of the 8 objective worlds that isn't a Universe. Plus Merlumina describing them as basically parallel worlds further emphasizes this. Calling them "Worlds" instead of "Dimensions" means absolutely nothing when they contextually mean the same thing. The other 6 worlds can't just be random planets within the same "World/Universe" as World 4 also has part 2 being a planet landed on as well as the edge of the universe being a stage within it. It wouldn't be called "Worlds" instead "Parts of the world" if that was the case. Makes no sense for a much larger portion to be held in the same banner. That would be like if going all over Asia was chapter 4's world in another game while every other world were just random countries within Asia being called worlds on the same sentence as the whole continent itself.
Also, there is evidence that World 1 and World 2 are clearly not Planet Earth or Mushroom Kingdom. See here. World 1 and World 2 have different starry sky structures; within Mario's Universe, the starry skies have relatively similar design and not planet has the skies shaped like math formulas or string theory symbols. But World 1 and World 2 respectively do. These are 1st hints World 1 and World 2 are different bodies of space or even Universe. Combine that that World 4 has traditional starry backgrounds combined with it being a confirmed Universe. Now the next nail in the coffin is World 6, details and references to different worlds are just that, references. It just means World 6 has their own versions of TTYD party or artifacts that look like different worlds artifacts. Not that it's the same universe let alone planet as those other worlds. To further emphases this, visual demonstrations are even better than statements. It cannot be denied that when the Void nukes World 6, it doesn't just destroy the kingdom, but also all the stars in the sky leaving nothing but a blank white background. Which means one of two things, World 6 either takes place in a Tier 4 sized pocket reality, or an entire universe. And a completely different planet from all the less. Keep in mind, nuking all those stars in the background would actually just make galaxies visible, implying it also nuked any galaxies too. So the lowest it could be interpreted is a 3-B feat if we're going to assume it's the body of space as all the rest. But Worlds 1, 2, 4, and 6 are more likely different realities altogether. Especially World 7, which the entire premise is that it's an afterlife. Everyone knows World 7 is basically the Mario multiverse's version of Heaven and Hell being treated as its own world. But even people from other dimensions are implied to go there when they die, including Mario's and people from Flipside. Yes, Flipside is a town, but its also located in its own dimension. Also, even before entering World 6, Merlon makes mention that other worlds might have already been consumed by the void. Which the purpose of Sammer Kingdom's destruction exists to prove his theory right. And as for Bowser jumping off what appears to be an Earth like planet in World 7, it just means Heaven in Mario is located on A planet, much like Dragon Ball's version of Heaven, but that does NOT prove Mario's Universe version of Heaven is physically located on Earth or Mushroom Kingdom. World 7 as a whole is still different from all the rest. Same with Hell having it's own unique sky structure.
I am not the most interested to discuss Dream Team cosmology, but Super Paper Mario still has 2-B shenanigans and clearly effects the entire cosmology. And I never agreed with Tribe of Darkness's own dimension not being a dimension. It's the exact same feat as the Sammer Kingdom one. And when a Void reaches a dimension, it nukes everything; stars in the sky, galaxy that would be visible in the background, "All time and space" everything. And Executor is 100% right on the time flow stuff.
Was translated into this
But yes, it clearly takes place in a different world/dimension from the one Mario came from. Plus as Executor mentioned above, "World", "Dimension", and "Universe" all have interchangeable definitions with some loose details and baselines. World can mean Country/Kingdom, Planet Earth, the Universe, an Emprire/Civilization with variable size that could range anywhere in between, or multiverse. Dimension typically refers to spatiotemporal stuff; not specifically spatiotemporal dimensions but it either means pocket reality or Universe. Though world usually means either planet Earth or Universe, and can mean pocket reality. But I don't think countless number of High 3-A sized pocket realities are a common assumption. Also, as Executor mentioned, Japanese is also very hard to distinguish plurals from singulars. Meaning all the translations that said "Suck up the entire world" could have meant "Suck up the entire Worlds". And thus multiple universes.
Also, to address the allegations Eficiente made about me overlooking something. I did not overlook the scan I found, while it does say "universe" as opposed to Universes or Multiverses. He's literally saying the very thing Executor noted you should never do. Plus, key word is "And all dimensions within it". Again, dimensions is literally plural. Plus it clearly means Universe in terms of "All time and Space". Saying it destroys 2 or 3 universes but not the entire multiverse would be a Golden Mean fallacy. But we clearly see more than one "World" or "Dimension" get effected, meaning it's unlikely to just mean Low 2-C or 2-C and that the entire multiverse of Mario's cosmology is easily being effected.
Furthermore, we need consistency. Keep in mind, World 4 alone was also called a world/dimension; the latter only at the beginning though. And it's official Japanese name alone is daiuchu, literally meaning "The Universe". So World 4 alone is Universe sized and has multiple "Endless" or "Infinite" statements. It's not consistent for that to be the only one of the 8 objective worlds that isn't a Universe. Plus Merlumina describing them as basically parallel worlds further emphasizes this. Calling them "Worlds" instead of "Dimensions" means absolutely nothing when they contextually mean the same thing. The other 6 worlds can't just be random planets within the same "World/Universe" as World 4 also has part 2 being a planet landed on as well as the edge of the universe being a stage within it. It wouldn't be called "Worlds" instead "Parts of the world" if that was the case. Makes no sense for a much larger portion to be held in the same banner. That would be like if going all over Asia was chapter 4's world in another game while every other world were just random countries within Asia being called worlds on the same sentence as the whole continent itself.
Also, there is evidence that World 1 and World 2 are clearly not Planet Earth or Mushroom Kingdom. See here. World 1 and World 2 have different starry sky structures; within Mario's Universe, the starry skies have relatively similar design and not planet has the skies shaped like math formulas or string theory symbols. But World 1 and World 2 respectively do. These are 1st hints World 1 and World 2 are different bodies of space or even Universe. Combine that that World 4 has traditional starry backgrounds combined with it being a confirmed Universe. Now the next nail in the coffin is World 6, details and references to different worlds are just that, references. It just means World 6 has their own versions of TTYD party or artifacts that look like different worlds artifacts. Not that it's the same universe let alone planet as those other worlds. To further emphases this, visual demonstrations are even better than statements. It cannot be denied that when the Void nukes World 6, it doesn't just destroy the kingdom, but also all the stars in the sky leaving nothing but a blank white background. Which means one of two things, World 6 either takes place in a Tier 4 sized pocket reality, or an entire universe. And a completely different planet from all the less. Keep in mind, nuking all those stars in the background would actually just make galaxies visible, implying it also nuked any galaxies too. So the lowest it could be interpreted is a 3-B feat if we're going to assume it's the body of space as all the rest. But Worlds 1, 2, 4, and 6 are more likely different realities altogether. Especially World 7, which the entire premise is that it's an afterlife. Everyone knows World 7 is basically the Mario multiverse's version of Heaven and Hell being treated as its own world. But even people from other dimensions are implied to go there when they die, including Mario's and people from Flipside. Yes, Flipside is a town, but its also located in its own dimension. Also, even before entering World 6, Merlon makes mention that other worlds might have already been consumed by the void. Which the purpose of Sammer Kingdom's destruction exists to prove his theory right. And as for Bowser jumping off what appears to be an Earth like planet in World 7, it just means Heaven in Mario is located on A planet, much like Dragon Ball's version of Heaven, but that does NOT prove Mario's Universe version of Heaven is physically located on Earth or Mushroom Kingdom. World 7 as a whole is still different from all the rest. Same with Hell having it's own unique sky structure.
I am not the most interested to discuss Dream Team cosmology, but Super Paper Mario still has 2-B shenanigans and clearly effects the entire cosmology. And I never agreed with Tribe of Darkness's own dimension not being a dimension. It's the exact same feat as the Sammer Kingdom one. And when a Void reaches a dimension, it nukes everything; stars in the sky, galaxy that would be visible in the background, "All time and space" everything. And Executor is 100% right on the time flow stuff.
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I guess I maintain that Dreamy Bowser should be downgraded to a lower level of 2-B, and Super Dimentio can remain where he is (since him affecting Dream Depot sounds a lot more likely)
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I'm sorry, but now I'm in full disagreement with this downgrade after DDM's and Executor's arguments.
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That's not what I said, I know they're many universes, what I don't see is why the distance between them would be comparable to the distance between universes in a multiverse rather than something less complex due to this universes being created, from dreams no less.
What Executor noted is true but I did not do something that should never be done, I went on context, the very thing needed in that language; "Determined to wreak revenge on the universe and its many dimensions" "Merlon charges Mario to find eight Pure Hearts that allow travel between the dimensions threatened by Bleck's plans." to me meant 1) the many dimensions affected had to come from within the universe in the prophecy, as this is stated. 2) The dimensions visited across the game are likely the ones threatened by the prophecy, not more, as that would not be proven. 3) "The universe" is likely not plural, as this is not proven (and would otherwise imply all universes have within them many dimensions like "the universe where this game takes place", if I'm allowed to say that). Could the text still target "all universes and their many dimensions", and the dimensions threatened by Bleck's plans by only some of the dimensions threatened? It could if proven, it's unlikely otherwise.
That on its own, as you say, "we clearly see more than one "World" or "Dimension" get effected", which should not equal that the "entire multiverse of Mario's cosmology is easily being effected", the latter could be the case if proven, otherwise it's an assumption that ignores the possibility of the destruction simply reaching that too. That prophecy targets something to be destroyed due to something with the power to do so, it doesn't say how only that will be destroyed. If more universes are destroyed, what about it? If the universe and its many dimensions is a correct translation, it's not being contradicted by that. It all translations actually mean "all worlds in general" and "all universes in general", then this is not being proven by the fact that more than one "World" or "Dimension" got affected.
It's your interpretation that World 4 being like this would conflict in any way. Each world had its different gimmick to represent parts of the universe, "The Universe being its own thing next to other parallel places being more common", all of that makes perfect sense, nothing there can be grabbed and said "No this conflicts with the idea of them all being a universe and so that can't be the case."
This is another jump in logic. Yes they have different spaces, they wouldn't be "many dimensions" if they didn't. But this does not show at all that they have to be in different universes, not unless you want that to be the case. This are many dimensions, they don't have any reason to have the same all within them.
As in, if I divide a building into many different buildings, they don't all have to be the same. If I divide a powerful character into many different less powerful characters, they don't all have to look the same, nor have the same amount of power. If I make a game where a universe is made up of many dimensions, they can all have its gimmicks, that they do so does not prove they do not made up the universe.
Sure. This is a neutral point to make.
Sure.
Ig it doesn't matter but I think that would be a technicality.
They are different dimensions, so they're not "more likely different realities altogether", but objectively so regardless of what are the differences they have.
Sure for all of this. None of it means anything to your point.
Worlds as in planets or dimensions? Either way, what about it?
Ok. But this is a neutral point.
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Just saying, we already know Bleck nuked specifically a country and not an entire universe. To say that destroying the sky means it's definitely a universe seems like a big jump. We never even see the night sky at all in any of these worlds iirc and I also guess Shy Guys are universal/3-B in hax cause they can drain color from the sky in Color Splash
The rest is all interpretational nonsense. I also acknowledged Mario's dimension in the OP. But there's NO proof Mario's dimension was affected and no discernible proof multiple universe-sized worlds were affected at all. Are we ignoring The Void not being present in The Whoa Zone, a place outside of the infinite space? Proving in-game it didn't affect more than the universe? The universe having different celestial bodies is easily explained because the whole game is another dimension, not that the specific worlds are. This is also a weak argument because Mario's geography CONSTANTLY changes. There's also still the fact monsters and enemies and people from all over "the world" can congregate in a single spot and travel between these worlds or have traveled between them without Dimensional Doors, as they only show up after Mario collects Pure Hearts and are one-way. And again, if these weren't all part of the same world, how do you explain multiple NPCs who aren't even wise people knowing about the other worlds and characters in them? These inconsistencies have been ignored entirely.
I'm still just seeing this all as interpretational nonsense.
Yes, these words CAN mean different things, but DO they? All of existence, it's dimensions and worlds can STILL relate to the universe too. So again, it's dependent on what you PERSONALLY feel. Are the Painting Worlds universes because they literally have all the "proof" shown here? No. Does Mario Galaxy have other universes you travel to because of dimensional doors and the fact World S has different geography? 3D World and Bowser's Fury? Other universes? All the proof against them can also be used against the arguments here as well.
The rest is all interpretational nonsense. I also acknowledged Mario's dimension in the OP. But there's NO proof Mario's dimension was affected and no discernible proof multiple universe-sized worlds were affected at all. Are we ignoring The Void not being present in The Whoa Zone, a place outside of the infinite space? Proving in-game it didn't affect more than the universe? The universe having different celestial bodies is easily explained because the whole game is another dimension, not that the specific worlds are. This is also a weak argument because Mario's geography CONSTANTLY changes. There's also still the fact monsters and enemies and people from all over "the world" can congregate in a single spot and travel between these worlds or have traveled between them without Dimensional Doors, as they only show up after Mario collects Pure Hearts and are one-way. And again, if these weren't all part of the same world, how do you explain multiple NPCs who aren't even wise people knowing about the other worlds and characters in them? These inconsistencies have been ignored entirely.
I'm still just seeing this all as interpretational nonsense.
Yes, these words CAN mean different things, but DO they? All of existence, it's dimensions and worlds can STILL relate to the universe too. So again, it's dependent on what you PERSONALLY feel. Are the Painting Worlds universes because they literally have all the "proof" shown here? No. Does Mario Galaxy have other universes you travel to because of dimensional doors and the fact World S has different geography? 3D World and Bowser's Fury? Other universes? All the proof against them can also be used against the arguments here as well.
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Also, "different space" but yet World 7, getting launched into the atmosphere shows us a planet (likely full of the different "worlds" as The Overthere can provably not be considered a whole universe), and the space you get sent to is literally the same as Chapter 4
Given this proof of a World NOT being a whole universe and connected to another World (Space and also a planet), again, the lack of Void in The Whoa Zone, which is a place outside of space, this means the Void could only destroy a single universe of infinite space.
It's easy to say at a core level that "this COULD be the case" but aren't we supposed to examine all the details? How can you explain away these inconsistencies? It's a fact The Void doesn't appear in The Whoa Zone. You can try and find it even during the period of Chapter 8 but it's not there. And I don't think you can leave when you're in Chapter 8 either. But this place exists outside of space. This is a clear contradiction unless other evidence is brought up. The characters DO know of each other generally, and they do travel between these worlds with no proof of dimensional travel, as the doors are one-way and only appeared in Flipside for Mario when he placed a Pure Heart in a pillar. The girl in Yold Town who gossips about the various characters in the game would absolutely NOT be able to know anything about the other characters if these were different universes. Assuming for no reason that Heronicus has Dimensional Travel because the fact he goes between the worlds doesn't support your argument is a piss-poor excuse to try and save face. And these arguments about "dimensional doors", Mario's home dimension, and the geography being different are all either weak arguments or have been talked about within the OP itself. There is quite literally a level in NSMB that is painted, a vastly different art style and geography than normal but it exists within the main world. Different geography is a poor argument.
Also, "Flipside is a dimension" is false. Merlon states it is in NO dimension at all. It's not a dimension, it's just a place between dimensions. This is literally what the game says
Given this proof of a World NOT being a whole universe and connected to another World (Space and also a planet), again, the lack of Void in The Whoa Zone, which is a place outside of space, this means the Void could only destroy a single universe of infinite space.
It's easy to say at a core level that "this COULD be the case" but aren't we supposed to examine all the details? How can you explain away these inconsistencies? It's a fact The Void doesn't appear in The Whoa Zone. You can try and find it even during the period of Chapter 8 but it's not there. And I don't think you can leave when you're in Chapter 8 either. But this place exists outside of space. This is a clear contradiction unless other evidence is brought up. The characters DO know of each other generally, and they do travel between these worlds with no proof of dimensional travel, as the doors are one-way and only appeared in Flipside for Mario when he placed a Pure Heart in a pillar. The girl in Yold Town who gossips about the various characters in the game would absolutely NOT be able to know anything about the other characters if these were different universes. Assuming for no reason that Heronicus has Dimensional Travel because the fact he goes between the worlds doesn't support your argument is a piss-poor excuse to try and save face. And these arguments about "dimensional doors", Mario's home dimension, and the geography being different are all either weak arguments or have been talked about within the OP itself. There is quite literally a level in NSMB that is painted, a vastly different art style and geography than normal but it exists within the main world. Different geography is a poor argument.
Also, "Flipside is a dimension" is false. Merlon states it is in NO dimension at all. It's not a dimension, it's just a place between dimensions. This is literally what the game says
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Yeah, sorry. I just hate seeing poor arguments being given tons of support because people inherently believe in a tier without actually acknowledging the inconsistencies and saying "well it COULD be this" when the whole point is that there exists the other argument and there's tons of evidence to support it with no inconsistencies left as a result of believing it.
Yes, the Japanese CAN support the current tier I guess, but other things said support my argument and make more sense given specific scenes and context, such as random NPCs traveling between these places, knowing about other lands and saying they're personally been to them, The Void not provably affecting the Whoa Zone, etc. These other arguments have cases that can be applied to other games but have been denied or were treated as illogical as well. It just comes off as hypocritical.
Like honestly, I want the other side to prove out ONE inconsistency after taking all of my arguments into consideration and then acknowledge how much inconsistencies there are if we believe these are other universes fully knowing what the Japanese says. There aren't any in my argument because the original text is vague, while the English version seems to have had many different interpretations leading to the weird usages of certain translations throughout the game and referring to the whole thing as "the universe" at times, which in English, is NOT as interpretational as japanese and conflicts with other sayings, or how Planet Bobule had the translation of "star" instead of "planet" kept in the English Tippi text. This alone proves this version is unreliable.
People also only have an English guide to support Tier 2, that being the one that says space and time are destroyed. I think we should hold off on assuming Tier 2 actually since no mention of this exists in the Japanese.
Yes, the Japanese CAN support the current tier I guess, but other things said support my argument and make more sense given specific scenes and context, such as random NPCs traveling between these places, knowing about other lands and saying they're personally been to them, The Void not provably affecting the Whoa Zone, etc. These other arguments have cases that can be applied to other games but have been denied or were treated as illogical as well. It just comes off as hypocritical.
Like honestly, I want the other side to prove out ONE inconsistency after taking all of my arguments into consideration and then acknowledge how much inconsistencies there are if we believe these are other universes fully knowing what the Japanese says. There aren't any in my argument because the original text is vague, while the English version seems to have had many different interpretations leading to the weird usages of certain translations throughout the game and referring to the whole thing as "the universe" at times, which in English, is NOT as interpretational as japanese and conflicts with other sayings, or how Planet Bobule had the translation of "star" instead of "planet" kept in the English Tippi text. This alone proves this version is unreliable.
People also only have an English guide to support Tier 2, that being the one that says space and time are destroyed. I think we should hold off on assuming Tier 2 actually since no mention of this exists in the Japanese.
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Currently I completely disagree on downgrading any of the SPM stuff based on previous points but I’m neutral on Dream Team stuff.
ZespeonGalaxy
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Disagree on downgrading 2-B SPM
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I see no one is actually rebutting nor acknowledging my arguments. Just blind agreements despite me pointing out all the inaccuracies and inconsistencies. All that's been said so far is "well it's up to interpretation" and then poor arguments by DDM me and eficiente tackled with nothing new said since.
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just close this thread, make a staff discussion and then post it mate, add some more evidence while you're at it. Big nerfs need big effort not a crt open to everyone and their dead great great grandma
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Acknowledgement of other lands (which are the places Heronicus has ventured and the same places that are talked about with Carson), more context about space just being treated as space within that dimension and not another dimension or universe (doubt this would change in Japanese and I don't think it does; it's just called "a world" which doesn't mean much), consistency with Chapter 3 and 4 in that the aliens watch Francis' favorite shows, and a mistranslation proving the English isn't reliable. Also confirmation the owner of the store in space is howzit. So much for "are all shopkeepers the same?"
Wonder what excuses will be made for these.
Grodus Chronicles exists in Flipside/Flopside too.
Are we to assume there's some interdimensional broadcasting network for no reason, or go with the fact the Japanese version and certain contextual pieces of evidence support this being all in one dimension and they're all able to tune in to the same network? One is more outlandish and assuming than the other.
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thetechmaster36
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This'll be my first and my last post in this thread, but Fox, you should chill the hell out. Saying stuff like this:
As for the downgrade itself, I disagree with SPM being downgraded but I'm okay with the Dream Stone stuff being downgraded.
really does not paint your argument in a good light. Nobody likes it when a thread turns sour, and you acting like this is what will make this thread turn sour if you keep this up. So if you could, respectfully address the arguments instead of calling peoples' arguments "piss-poor" and "nonsense" and whatnot, as that would make this a lot better. Remember that the people arguing have feelings too.
As for the downgrade itself, I disagree with SPM being downgraded but I'm okay with the Dream Stone stuff being downgraded.
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Okay, but why do you disagree? What about the other's arguments are stronger than my list of evidence and contrivances if we accept that interpretation? I've given evidence that the english has a mistranslation too, therefore it's more unreliable
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I apologize for my demeanour though. I'll try to keep it more dignified. It's just frustrating when I've already countered certain arguments and it feels like people are ignoring what I've said so far.
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