Small Question About LOTR Street Level tiering

[Random-Helper323]

This is my first thread, so sorry in advance if it's a wreck.

It seems the justifications for the human characters being tiered at wall level is largely based on Gimli's axe shattering when he hits the ring. I haven't read the books for years, so I'm just going off the film here, but wasn't it the ring's power that did that rather than Gimli's strength? Gimli did fall over backwards after all. I know they might be wall level regardless, but I'm asking.

Sorry I talk too much and can't make threads properly. And thanks to anyone who responds.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Regarding speed, in the first film we actually do see Aragorn dodge an arrow, and in the games, which admittedly are secondary at best, parrying arrows is a basic mechanic and also appears in a cutscene in the Two Towers game and is referenced by Legolas in the Return of the King game.

 

[Tyranno223]

This is my first thread, so sorry in advance if it's a wreck.

It seems the justifications for the human characters being tiered at wall level is largely based on Gimli's axe shattering when he hits the ring. I haven't read the books for years, so I'm just going off the film here, but wasn't it the ring's power that did that rather than Gimli's strength? Gimli did fall over backwards after all. I know they might be wall level regardless, but I'm asking.

Sorry I talk too much and can't make threads properly. And thanks to anyone who responds.

LOTR right now is an absolute mess. We have an ongoing revision going on, but it's incredibly slow.

For the record, we only use the books, and canon sources, the movies have their own profiles, although there's only a few.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Yeah, I saw that thread. I agree that thread is far more important and definitely should be the focus. Although I'd have to argue that using the books alone for the mortal characters is a bit harsh since it results in very few feats. The thing with the books, or more specifically Tolkien's way of doing things, is that we get eight pages of Frodo and Sam talking about how the old gaffer would respond to Frodo and Sam climbing down a cliff, and meanwhile the battle of Helm's Deep which decides the fate of the country and involves hundreds of lost lives and a complicated battle strategy and multi-frontal assault, and lasts for an entire night in-universe, in the book it lasts half a page, with half of that being a description of Gimli stepping up and killing one orc. Although in the second book Legolas was able to count Eomer's cavalry soldiers (he said there were one hundred and five of them) in a few seconds. Still, there are some clear issues with using only the books in that regard.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yeah, I saw that thread. I agree that thread is far more important and definitely should be the focus. Although I'd have to argue that using the books alone for the mortal characters is a bit harsh since it results in very few feats. The thing with the books, or more specifically Tolkien's way of doing things, is that we get eight pages of Frodo and Sam talking about how the old gaffer would respond to Frodo and Sam climbing down a cliff, and meanwhile the battle of Helm's Deep which decides the fate of the country and involves hundreds of lost lives and a complicated battle strategy and multi-frontal assault, and lasts for an entire night in-universe, in the book it lasts half a page, with half of that being a description of Gimli stepping up and killing one orc. Although in the second book Legolas was able to count Eomer's cavalry soldiers (he said there were one hundred and five of them) in a few seconds. Still, there are some clear issues with using only the books in that regard.

It's harsh but it's how it should he done, as the films and book versions if characters are widely different, down to their personality, and scaling. Moroever we have other materials to draw on, and not just the details from the main trilogy.

Also, mortal characters do have their share of impressive feats. Heck Elendil contributed to the killing of Sauron, and is directly comparing to Gil-Galad for instance.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I was referring to the Third Age mortals like Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. I guess it'd be a little less harsh if films and the like could be used as supporting evidence to any implied feat in the books or something. And Legolas counting the cavalry in a matter of seconds while they're moving is certainly some kind of reaction speed feat. Not as obvious as Aragorn literally ducking under an incoming arrow in the films, but still, here we are.

 

[Tyranno223]

The films simply cannot be used as supporting evidence, as they are fundamentally different works of art to the book canon.

It'd be like scaling MCU characters, to mainline Marvel comics, because of shared characters, when the worlds, and the abilities + powers of each character are fundamentally different.

Moreover, the book has some fine feats of it own.

Physically, Aragorn is pretty strong, cutting through metal helmets in one hit and regularly one shotting Uruks, wargs and men. Sam blitzes orcs (who can somewhat keep up with exceptionally trained humans) before they react, but is unable to keep up with Aragorn. Moreover, Aragorn is able to keep up with Legolas, being a member of the Dunedain, with Elves being able to move faster than human sight when motivated. Heck Boromir is arguably superior to his movie counterpart, as he only dies after many arrows pierce him vs 2

Meanwhile they also have more abilities, with Aragorn and Boromir exuding such auras that they can intimidate enemies, stunning them, with Boromir blowing his horn even pausing the Balrog for a moment. Heck Aragorn outright mentally overpowers Sauron himself, which something movie Aragorn outright failed to do (showing again the division), with both sharing the same advantages, being rightful possession and authority over the Palantiri.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Fair enough. As I said, it's been years since I read the books. I do remember that Aragorn is extremely fast to the point of being hard to keep up with. So yeah, I guess. And it is accurate that Legolas and Gimli killed 41 and 42 orcs respectively during the battle for Helm's Deep. Actually, Aragorn was also fast enough to attack the Witch King and several other wraith using fire. And he can't have been blocking their attacks, because in the book he actually didn't have a functioning sword at that point. He was carrying the broken sword already. So he has to be fast enough to either hit them before they can counter or dodge their attacks. Granted they're blind, but they have other senses to make up for that.