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Skill Revisions (Standards Change)
- Thread starter KnightOfSunlight
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Witch questioning his life choices after realizing he agrees with me.
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Thankfully, this point is not contested. However, I will stick to my guns and state that it they are not, nor will they ever be, skill feats. They are unquantifiable nonsense put in because and author does not understand what it means to be skilled. Acting as though they are skill feats is ridiculous, and the most it does is establish them in their own verse.
You misunderstand my reasoning, my logic, and my argument, all in one singular section of your response.
Skill does not close any gaps. If a person defeats someone who is purported to by ~40x stronger than them via skill, it is not a skill feat, it is an outlier, or they scale to them and we ignore the statement. However, ridiculous claims have come from others that it, in fact, somehow is a skill feat to defeat an army of clones ~40x stronger and faster than yourself, without you scaling to them in power and speed, despite this being an obvious outlier and case of massive PIS.
If a 9-B reflects the attacks of a 5-A, they are a 5-A unless they are specificed to do so via an immensely powerful usage of reality warping or magic. It is not, nor will it ever be, a feat of skill, because skill crossing a gap that large is ridiculous
Ignore the numbers, they were estimates thrown out for a reasonable argument. Beating a person even twice as fast as you is nearly impossible, as they can strike faster than you can reasonably put up guards, parry, or react to their movement, and can react to your movements faster than you can complete them. Predicting them via "skill" is also not a skill feat, it is a case of CIS and PIS, as someone who is twice as fast as you would merely change the angle of their strikes as you moved to guard, faster than you could even react. If someone in a story beats another character via skill, despite that character being purportedly "much faster", they do not gain a skill feat. They merely scale to that speed, or the fight is a case of PIS/CIS.
Skill is, fundamentally, incapable of closing gaps of speed and major gaps of strength, as skill in a fight depends on you being able to react and predict. When an opponent can change strategies faster than you can react, or can strike you hard enough to immediately end the fight, it is not skill to fight them. You either scale to them, or it is an outlier. There is no skill present as no amount of skill can close the gaps that can be seen in fiction.
The issue is, we consider feats of "knowing" as equal to feats of "doing". Being stated to "know" all forms of combat is not, and should not be considered equal to, actually performing dedicated moves from a fighting style. Even more so if the demonstrated feats in combat are woefully inadequate to how someone would actually fight if given such skill.
I did have combat proficiency in mind. The issue is that we consider knowledge to be equal to skill on the site, and ignore that experience trumps knowledge, in almost all cases. If someone who merely "knows" a fighting style, has practiced it in a gym or dojo, and has never actually fought, fights someone who has been fighting since they were a child, seen multiple battles and wars, and has fought and won against multiple unique and unorthodox foes, the experienced person, while technically lacking proper "knowledge", will win every single fight between the two, assuming they are perfectly equal in all statistics aside from experience and education.
I suppose a more accurate wording of my point here is "Actual Experience > Controlled Education", or, "Experience > Knowledge". Someone with only knowledge of combat would not beat someone with experience in combat.
...Musashi's fate hax isn't skill, as the first point specifically states. You deny your own agreement to attempt to argue a different point.
But, simply put, a feat being called "skill" does not mean it bypasses resistance to similar abilities done via reality warping. It means said feat, done within the confines of reality, is entirely inferior to the feat of reality warping and should be actively resisted with ease.
Musashi's fate hax is hardline reality warping that she achieved via skill. However, it is, and always will be, reality warping. Just because the Nasuverse has arbitrary rules and stipulations that allows her to achieve reality warping via her skill, does not mean it is not reality warping. It was never, and never will be, a skill feat on its own.
"If the mehcanics of an ability are different that does not mean the same resistance will work." Indeed. Inducing biological death would bypass resistance to fate induced death. However, this does not apply to skill, as skill works within the confines of reality, whereas Reality Warping fundamentally breaks reality.
It is also worth adding that inducing biological death is not death manip, and hasn't been for years. It is merely bio manip
The issue here is the assumption that working within the confines of reality would somehow, magically, grant one the ability to bypass somebody able to resist fundamental changes in reality. This is, quite bluntly, absolutely nonsensical. If someone can resist the precognition of a person who actively views a multiverse as a book to be read, a single person with the ability to analyze movements would not be able to predict them in any meaningful capacity, because that person can resist the ability to be predicted by a person who can see every single option and path they can take. By working within the confines of reality, they simply cannot be predicted, as they can resist things that predict them from outside the confines of reality. To say that, somehow, someone can totally still predict them despite their resistance being qualitatively superior to reality itself, because that person works within the reality they are superior to, is foolish and denies so much basic logic.
If one can resist someone breaking reality, the should effortlessly be able to resist someone who works within reality. If someone can resist precognition from a 2-A being who can see through Type 5 Acausality, it is absolutely ridiculous to claim that they somehow cannot resist someone who merely predicts movements with their mind. The only exception to this rule is if they are using a specific spell to do so, one that was meant to counter said ability specifically.
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A standardized set of rules for controversial feats and abilities, especially with something as potentially subjective as skill, will help avoid wank and downplay. This has been done on multiple occasions in regards to multiple things aside from skill.
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I will leave that 1st point since i'd just be arguing semantics since we already agree on the core idea.
On the 2nd point you go back to your own idea not listening to a single thing about the kind of inconsistent stupidity i mentioned it would create. And let us be real here, you mention all this "oh well but it is very hard and almost impossible" stuff, but let's go back to Musashi for a sec. She gained Fate Hax via skill. Does that mean we should treat her Fate Hax as an outlier and that it doesn't exist simply because it would make no sense to go from skill to fate hax? No, not at all. We just embrace it's stupidity as there is nothing we can do about it. You cannot call outliers on things that happen multiple times and quite literally gain consistency, and you cannot say "they scale" if they have a good enough reasoning of "they really don't". You're just debating with shots in the dark here and no concrete example which is why i say making rules is a bad idea cus weird cases always exist. Case and point, it would create really bad arguments if we cap it at some point. It makes no sense to us, yeah...what can we do about it? It is there, clear as day, it exists, we can't just say "no, i don't like it". It just doesn't work like that. This gets debated on a case by case basis and see the arguments for each side. And "If a 9-B reflects the attacks of a 5-A, they are a 5-A", no, you cannot say that with no knowledge of the exact mechanics. This is a case by case basis, not sth you write a rule about.
Then i assume we're on the same page here? Combat Proficiency is "skill + knowledge" dividing the 2 just doesn't work anymore. And as for "feats of knowing = feats of doing". Again very case by case. If you have practiced/know all martial arts you are very much more proficient in combat than an average guy that sits on a chair for a living. There doesn't even exist an argument to say otherwise. However it depends on the case. Read my example on pressure points for an argument of why knowledge and skill can be useless on their own. So this is a very case by case thing as to what type of knowledge counts and what doesn't. Making this again, not a thing you can make a rule about as you need to see the specific case to judge.
No one has ever, or ever will say that "since sth comes from skill it is more potent than hax". Just not happening. But why did you just outright ignore my point about "whether it comes from skill or hax it has nothing to do with potency"? Potency isn't where it comes from, it's what it does. (The bio manip death was just an example btw). "Skill works within reality whereas RW breaks it" while that depends, that does not make it more powerful. That makes it different. You break reality to achieve what you want, that is not exactly more powerful than working within reality as it is outright completely different. Again i can't stress this enough how "skill or reality warping hax neither shows potency, they show what they use to achieve an effect therefore the resistance needed might differ, but it is NOT a case of potency". And that whole "if i can resist precog from a dude that sees what happens in the multiverse then a dude who uses how my muscles are moving to know the trajectory of my attack cannot work either" is an entire level of wrong, i will let you try to argue me this one with actual reasoning besides "this sounds bigger and better therefore it is" despite it working so differently it is ridiculous to even put them in the same category let alone use the same resistance. So argue to me with logic why something that works as differently as this precog case you mentioned can use the same resistance as future sight despite me already saying 2 abilities working differently means the same resistance most likely won't work (depending on the resistance).
A standardized set of rules isn't necessary, if you cannot use logic to make an argument and debunk another's belief, do not come in a debating site. This is supposed to revolve around "debating" not making pages. Geez. Especially on sth as case by case as skill.
On the 2nd point you go back to your own idea not listening to a single thing about the kind of inconsistent stupidity i mentioned it would create. And let us be real here, you mention all this "oh well but it is very hard and almost impossible" stuff, but let's go back to Musashi for a sec. She gained Fate Hax via skill. Does that mean we should treat her Fate Hax as an outlier and that it doesn't exist simply because it would make no sense to go from skill to fate hax? No, not at all. We just embrace it's stupidity as there is nothing we can do about it. You cannot call outliers on things that happen multiple times and quite literally gain consistency, and you cannot say "they scale" if they have a good enough reasoning of "they really don't". You're just debating with shots in the dark here and no concrete example which is why i say making rules is a bad idea cus weird cases always exist. Case and point, it would create really bad arguments if we cap it at some point. It makes no sense to us, yeah...what can we do about it? It is there, clear as day, it exists, we can't just say "no, i don't like it". It just doesn't work like that. This gets debated on a case by case basis and see the arguments for each side. And "If a 9-B reflects the attacks of a 5-A, they are a 5-A", no, you cannot say that with no knowledge of the exact mechanics. This is a case by case basis, not sth you write a rule about.
Then i assume we're on the same page here? Combat Proficiency is "skill + knowledge" dividing the 2 just doesn't work anymore. And as for "feats of knowing = feats of doing". Again very case by case. If you have practiced/know all martial arts you are very much more proficient in combat than an average guy that sits on a chair for a living. There doesn't even exist an argument to say otherwise. However it depends on the case. Read my example on pressure points for an argument of why knowledge and skill can be useless on their own. So this is a very case by case thing as to what type of knowledge counts and what doesn't. Making this again, not a thing you can make a rule about as you need to see the specific case to judge.
No one has ever, or ever will say that "since sth comes from skill it is more potent than hax". Just not happening. But why did you just outright ignore my point about "whether it comes from skill or hax it has nothing to do with potency"? Potency isn't where it comes from, it's what it does. (The bio manip death was just an example btw). "Skill works within reality whereas RW breaks it" while that depends, that does not make it more powerful. That makes it different. You break reality to achieve what you want, that is not exactly more powerful than working within reality as it is outright completely different. Again i can't stress this enough how "skill or reality warping hax neither shows potency, they show what they use to achieve an effect therefore the resistance needed might differ, but it is NOT a case of potency". And that whole "if i can resist precog from a dude that sees what happens in the multiverse then a dude who uses how my muscles are moving to know the trajectory of my attack cannot work either" is an entire level of wrong, i will let you try to argue me this one with actual reasoning besides "this sounds bigger and better therefore it is" despite it working so differently it is ridiculous to even put them in the same category let alone use the same resistance. So argue to me with logic why something that works as differently as this precog case you mentioned can use the same resistance as future sight despite me already saying 2 abilities working differently means the same resistance most likely won't work (depending on the resistance).
A standardized set of rules isn't necessary, if you cannot use logic to make an argument and debunk another's belief, do not come in a debating site. This is supposed to revolve around "debating" not making pages. Geez. Especially on sth as case by case as skill.
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Must say that I also disagree with standardizing skills; in general I'm against standardizing powers and abilities, maybe write recommendations, but no strict rules. I rather left that to debate.
In other note, I would say that is possible for a 9-B to parry the attacks of a 5-A, as long the Lifting Strength isn't high; if the the 5-A's LF is let's say, human level, then it's attacks are lightweight and easy to parry away (naturally, if the character generate great amounts of heat proportional to its tier, it means it will melt any weapon than the enemy uses, and possibly some type of damage even without contact).
In other note, I would say that is possible for a 9-B to parry the attacks of a 5-A, as long the Lifting Strength isn't high; if the the 5-A's LF is let's say, human level, then it's attacks are lightweight and easy to parry away (naturally, if the character generate great amounts of heat proportional to its tier, it means it will melt any weapon than the enemy uses, and possibly some type of damage even without contact).
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Toni, while im glad to see that you are also against this whole standardizing thing, i still would dislike anything on skill. It's just sth you can argue for fun and is in very few matches an important factor. Writing recommendations is still very meh. Im all for argue all you can if you can.
Also the 9-B to 5-A was just an example of "larger AP doesn't mean you can't win cus the methods may differ".
Also the 9-B to 5-A was just an example of "larger AP doesn't mean you can't win cus the methods may differ".
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I generally agree with OP and also agree that stuff like this shouldnt be standardized.
That being said a few thoughts:
I dont think it is possible for a 9-B to deflect or reflect 5-A attacks with simple skill of course this is a case by case basis but it is impossible, it is completely illogical dodge, sure as AP has nothing to do with speed. Reflect? no.
samer thing with escaping the attacks of someone far faster than you as has been pointed out it doesn tmatter how much you predict the person can always simply change their attacks mid way as long as they are not being dumb enough to throw their full weight behind every attack you can not dodge or escape someone that outspeed you heavily. Funny enough this is brought up by Rock Lee when he fights Sasuke for the first time and they discuss the sharingan's prediction vs Sasuke's combat speed being far behind Rock Lee's.
As for reality warping shit via skill vs just reality warping, while I normally agree that mechanics behind something matter to resistrance at the level of reality warping it is very very different. Lets use analytical prediction vs straight up seeing the future. They both acheive precognition essentially. Seeing the future is straight up better most of the time. That being said being acausal(type 4 I believe) or straight up resistant to future sight/can not not be seen in the future means that seeing the future is useless, vs analytical prediction because the person still exists in the present as long as they follow logical movement/fighting styles regardless of being acausal analytical prediction would still work on them. However reality warping is just different. Same with fate manipulation, even if they both use different mechanics (skill vs simple power) they have to work on the person with the same effect, essentially you are manipulating the person's fate if you are resistant to fate manipulation this simply should not work on you, I dont think either are more powerful than the other tbh they both are the same thing in the end. Yeah they are said to work on different mechanics but let us be honest reality warping depending on mechanics is not the same thing as mind maniulation depending on mechanics how they affect the target end up being very different.
My 2 cents.
That being said a few thoughts:
I dont think it is possible for a 9-B to deflect or reflect 5-A attacks with simple skill of course this is a case by case basis but it is impossible, it is completely illogical dodge, sure as AP has nothing to do with speed. Reflect? no.
samer thing with escaping the attacks of someone far faster than you as has been pointed out it doesn tmatter how much you predict the person can always simply change their attacks mid way as long as they are not being dumb enough to throw their full weight behind every attack you can not dodge or escape someone that outspeed you heavily. Funny enough this is brought up by Rock Lee when he fights Sasuke for the first time and they discuss the sharingan's prediction vs Sasuke's combat speed being far behind Rock Lee's.
As for reality warping shit via skill vs just reality warping, while I normally agree that mechanics behind something matter to resistrance at the level of reality warping it is very very different. Lets use analytical prediction vs straight up seeing the future. They both acheive precognition essentially. Seeing the future is straight up better most of the time. That being said being acausal(type 4 I believe) or straight up resistant to future sight/can not not be seen in the future means that seeing the future is useless, vs analytical prediction because the person still exists in the present as long as they follow logical movement/fighting styles regardless of being acausal analytical prediction would still work on them. However reality warping is just different. Same with fate manipulation, even if they both use different mechanics (skill vs simple power) they have to work on the person with the same effect, essentially you are manipulating the person's fate if you are resistant to fate manipulation this simply should not work on you, I dont think either are more powerful than the other tbh they both are the same thing in the end. Yeah they are said to work on different mechanics but let us be honest reality warping depending on mechanics is not the same thing as mind maniulation depending on mechanics how they affect the target end up being very different.
My 2 cents.
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Rocker, this is why you debate on a case by case basis. You're correct on the precog, but you're talking stuff with no basis on abilities with the "fate manip from skill", like....nani?
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Cus at that point i might as well say well Amane Shinomiya has Fate Manip from magic whereas Musashi has Fate Manip from skill therefore Amane's Fate Hax > Musashi's Fate Hax, even though the later can do stuff on a 2-A level whereas the former can't. People, potency has nothing to do with where something comes from (magic, chi, chakra, skill, nen, [insert thing here]), feats are what decide it's potency.
Why the **** would we treat resisting fate hax from magic as not working on fate hax from ki? Unless the resistance is dependent on the actual system (like a character just resisting magic) I think we should say it works.
I don't think skill should be able to get around resistances like this, by being considered its own unique source that you have to explicitly resist.
Why the **** would we treat resisting fate hax from magic as not working on fate hax from ki? Unless the resistance is dependent on the actual system (like a character just resisting magic) I think we should say it works.
I don't think skill should be able to get around resistances like this, by being considered its own unique source that you have to explicitly resist.
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because fate manip based on skill has no way of actually being explained logically. No matter how skillful you are you can not manipulate a person's fate. The closest you can come to that is forcing a person to make an action based on how you move/attack etc. But that is not fate manipulation without extreme wank.
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Agnaa, Skill is not a source you have to specifically resist what the hell dude? Read the "analytical prediction vs precog" example to know what i mean.
Rocker, yeah but why use that as an example then?
Rocker, yeah but why use that as an example then?
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You literally included "skill" in your list of sources in what I quoted.
You also said: Skill can be thought of as a source for whatever you can do, where it all comes from, not that it is weaker.
if the mechanics of an ability are different that does not mean that the same resistance will work, because the hax worked different mechanically
In other words, skill is not more powerful or weaker than reality warping, but just because sth from skill and sth from Reality Warping seem to achieve the same effect, does not mean they work in the same way which means it is not necessarily true that the resistance to Reality Warping will work. Conclusion: Skill can/may bypass resistance to Reality Warping, but not because of potency, it may bypass resistance because it works much different to what the opponent resisted.
You also said: Skill can be thought of as a source for whatever you can do, where it all comes from, not that it is weaker.
if the mechanics of an ability are different that does not mean that the same resistance will work, because the hax worked different mechanically
In other words, skill is not more powerful or weaker than reality warping, but just because sth from skill and sth from Reality Warping seem to achieve the same effect, does not mean they work in the same way which means it is not necessarily true that the resistance to Reality Warping will work. Conclusion: Skill can/may bypass resistance to Reality Warping, but not because of potency, it may bypass resistance because it works much different to what the opponent resisted.
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There's no really a mechanical difference between "this guy is so skilled he can manipulate its fate" and "this guy is pretty skilled, and also has Self-Fate Manipulation"; that said, I wouldn't buy "this guy is more skilled cuz his skill allows him to manipulate fate" cuz that do not really means anything, like, how skilled is that? How that would help it against someone that is pretty good with Pankration and Stealth Mastery (not taking the fate hax into the equation)?
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Indeed, that is not a mechanical difference. The Prediction to Future Sight definitely is though.
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I agree that skill can be a source of hax if the verse has some mechanic to make it work, like, say, Bending in Avatar. If you know the right techniques, you can breath fire, control metal, shoot lightning, bend blood, etc. It's a superpower that you need to have, but the application relies on your skill. It's just not really useful for comparisons with other verses if they don't have a similar mechanic going on. Same for "intelligence" feats where someone makes a time machine out of bubble gum and a stick, at some point it's just your universe allowing stuff like that, and it can't really be compared with anything else if they don't follow the same rules.
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Yeah, that's what I said. A verse can have a mechanic that relies on skill, like shooting lightning by pointing at things properly, or turning someone into a worm if you wave a wooden stick and say magic words the right way, or controlling fate by slashing things real good. It's the character using some property of the verse that doesn't exist irl, and we generally can't judge how impressive it is against other verses without those same mechanics.
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Yeah I am agreeing with that.
Because my point is that fate manipulation affects the fate of the target regardless of the mechanics getting to that point, this is not like mind manipulation that can go through any medium or precognition that has completely different ways of predicting an outcome at the end of the day it is still manipulating the targets fate. which means that there is no way resisting power based fat emanip is different to resisting "skill" based fate manip. Same with reality warping.
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Why does everyone use "skill based fate" instead of a clear example like Analytical Prediction vs Precog based on seeing the future. Argue this one instead of sth that doesn't even make sense come on now guys. You have a very simple and clear example here but go and search for other bad ones.
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Dude the issue is.
"Does skill based stuff get negged by resistance to reality warping stuff?"
And the answer to that is "not necessarily, it could, but not always. It's very case by case". And a clear example to that is "Resistance to precog doesn't get rid of analytical prediction which the Knight is arguing it does.
"Does skill based stuff get negged by resistance to reality warping stuff?"
And the answer to that is "not necessarily, it could, but not always. It's very case by case". And a clear example to that is "Resistance to precog doesn't get rid of analytical prediction which the Knight is arguing it does.
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When initially reading the OP I had an overly charitable interpretation of 4, where I read it as "Hax granted via skill does not automatically bypass resistance to said hax", which I'd obviously agree with.
Reading it again and seeing some discussions in the thread, it seems to be a much stronger statement that I disagree with, "Resisting any reality warping means that the character is unaffected by skill-based abilities", which I'd severely disagree with. Skill should merely be treated fairly and on-par (but of course, as per 1, if it's sufficiently haxxy it shouldn't count as an actual skill feat).
Reading it again and seeing some discussions in the thread, it seems to be a much stronger statement that I disagree with, "Resisting any reality warping means that the character is unaffected by skill-based abilities", which I'd severely disagree with. Skill should merely be treated fairly and on-par (but of course, as per 1, if it's sufficiently haxxy it shouldn't count as an actual skill feat).
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I thought the argument was about skill based reality warping vs reality warping as a power and whether resisting one means resisting the other or one being better than the other. My answer to that being neither is better and having resistance to reality warping means that you resist both. This is specifically for reality warping and anything like it (law manip/fate manip etc) not for any power.
Yeah Agnaa put it best.
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Rocker. Ah a misunderstanding, it's fine. So we've come to terms on this part then.
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Hm, guess I didn't get that definition. For more nonsensical that may be manipulating reality via skill, resisting RW do not grant any resistance against an combat style that cause RW effects (similar to resisting heat attacks will grant resistance against magic that also have heat uses, something that is untrue).
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Not sure if I got your point correctly there but if you resist heat whether u use magic or a flamethrower it doesn't matter you will resist it.
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What I meant is that resisting the effect of a power will not grant resistance against its nature (or viceverse).
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Actually that can happen depends on the case.
Resisting the effect means that no matter how its done you resist it. The heat example, no matter what you use to create the heat if my body is resilient it'll not achieve anything. However if the magic is not used for heat but instead sth else you don't resist.
Resisting the cause means you resist the mechanics of something. The heat example again, if you're resistant to magic, whether is used for heat or anything else it doesn't matter, you resist, however if you get hit by a flamethrower you don't resist because you don't resist heat you resist magic.
I hope my explanation was not confusing.
Resisting the effect means that no matter how its done you resist it. The heat example, no matter what you use to create the heat if my body is resilient it'll not achieve anything. However if the magic is not used for heat but instead sth else you don't resist.
Resisting the cause means you resist the mechanics of something. The heat example again, if you're resistant to magic, whether is used for heat or anything else it doesn't matter, you resist, however if you get hit by a flamethrower you don't resist because you don't resist heat you resist magic.
I hope my explanation was not confusing.
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Welp, I see my example caused an unnecessary confusion. Basically if what OP suggests is that resisting RW grants resistance to skill cuz skill grants RW, then I disagree.
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This will be my only post on this thread because there are multiple people here who will repeat the same drivel they have to me in the past and simply waste everyone's time, so this is only my opinion and not anything I will spend special time and effort defending beyond what is in the post itself. The people I'm referring to know exactly who they are.
- 1: ehhhh 50/50 really. Feats like performing outright hax through skill have always been treated as unquantifiable, if very high, in the absolutely cancerous skill debates, but it's still combat skill because the verse says it is. That's really all there is to that, because while you are absolutely right that it makes no sense and is generally very weird, even if a lot of verses try to give explanations for it, you can't really just say "no the author is wrong." Those sorts of feats are only really used when the debate can't be settled by more normal feats, which characters with that sort of thing tend to have or scale above.
- 2: 100% agree with this, outside of certain weird amps anyways. While there are ways to avoid a particular attack that has great speed, such as a bullet, you can't do the same to a human's punch, because they'll notice you dodging and just adjust or attack again while you're still dealing with the first attack. That's for speed, anyways, and you can theoretically deal with much physically stronger opponents by exploiting human biology or aiming at areas that can't be strengthened, there's still a limit to that.
- 3: I disagree with this, although mainly due to the fact that fiction, or this specific section of fiction, tends to equate knowing how to do something and actually doing it, so knowing how to do something means you almost definitely can do it. That's more or less how it works in real life as well, although nowhere near that scale. Knowing what to do to dodge a bullet doesn't mean you can move or react fast enough to do it, but that's more an issue with your body than you skill, and you'll still do better than standing still.
- 4: You covered yourself here rather with the quick mention of "that works within the bounds of reality", because otherwise this would be very stupid. Obviously, as mentioned above, performing hax via skill is almost always considered something abnormal and generally fantastic. For example, the Class System in Fate caused the martial techniques of certain people to come out as outright magic due to it's sheer absurdity. Although, you kinda contradict your own header here.
- 5: I completely agree with this, although it is, of course, subject to NLF. The concept of war in a tier 2 verse won't have the knowledge and technique of someone who is tier 1. Furthermore, this is part of another problem that rejecting this causes that I've had to deal with, specifically the fact that certain characters, like Khorne, are the concept of combat. All war and fighting that happens is because of them and is their hand, so it not being the concept of war in the neutral ground that the fight is happening is is literally saying that Khorne never appeared to the fight in the first place, because you can't just make him not war.
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I agree mostly with hl3 here as well. Especially on the topic of hax via skill stuff. An effect not being achievable in real life via skill doesn't make it not a skill feat if the verse treats it like that, simple as that, we've already treated those things as largely not being able to scale across verses except for some cases, because that's not exactly a standard that all verses have.
That said, idk why this is on the crt board, there isn't a page to update with this stuff
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Anyway it seems that several ppl do agree with most of what i answered so now the main question is.
Everyone (especially Antonio) do you think these should be made into rules? I am severely against these being made into a form of rule or anything considering how broad the concept of skill is. And rules just about never end well for this kind of stuff, people always end up misintepreting them, getting the wrong idea then abusing these rules on people who similarly got the wrong idea. And Agnaa don't you even try to say no to this one you yourself had an overly positive view on this one here, and you're pretty experienced.
Everyone (especially Antonio) do you think these should be made into rules? I am severely against these being made into a form of rule or anything considering how broad the concept of skill is. And rules just about never end well for this kind of stuff, people always end up misintepreting them, getting the wrong idea then abusing these rules on people who similarly got the wrong idea. And Agnaa don't you even try to say no to this one you yourself had an overly positive view on this one here, and you're pretty experienced.
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I'm fine with treating what's eventually agreed upon as "rules", even if I'd rather not have a page for them (akin to how many rulings have been made on interactions between hax, but these usually aren't listed on pages).
People can misinterpret, or get the wrong idea and abuse them, but I think that's better than not having them at all. This thread exists as a record of our interpretations and ideas around these rules. If these turn out to be insufficient, in the future another thread can be made.
People can misinterpret, or get the wrong idea and abuse them, but I think that's better than not having them at all. This thread exists as a record of our interpretations and ideas around these rules. If these turn out to be insufficient, in the future another thread can be made.
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I don't really know how people misinterpreting these is better than not having them. It's just something i can't come to terms with. However i have been doing this for quite a while now, no rules, nothing and things went rather fine. I didn't need the rule to convince ppl that "fate via skill" is in no way a quantifiable form of skill, nor did i need any rule to convince ppl that "Being the concept of war in your own verse doesn't mean you scale to all of fiction". Things can be solved without needing rules and instead you can use something called "debating", the thing people should do in a versus debating site.
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Misinterpretations can be avoided by clear discussion of the wording and its meaning, and are generally only likely to occur in a minority of viewers, while being possible in absolutely everything. I'd rather give most people a clear consensus to refer to even if it means some of them misinterpret it.
You don't need rules to convince people of things once or twice, but when it's something that gets referenced again and again, sometimes you won't be there to debate it. Sometimes everyone who disagrees with you is there to debate it and no-one who agrees with you is. Having rules gives consistency to situations like this. It may be a versus debating site, but we also try to create and preserve consensus via the profiles and match rules/SBA. If you want to always be arguing the same things go to SpaceBattles. They show that things can be resolved without an enforced consensus, but I'd rather not do things that way.
tl;dr I don't want whether "Being the concept of war in your verse" means you scale to all of fiction or not to depend on who's in the thread.
You don't need rules to convince people of things once or twice, but when it's something that gets referenced again and again, sometimes you won't be there to debate it. Sometimes everyone who disagrees with you is there to debate it and no-one who agrees with you is. Having rules gives consistency to situations like this. It may be a versus debating site, but we also try to create and preserve consensus via the profiles and match rules/SBA. If you want to always be arguing the same things go to SpaceBattles. They show that things can be resolved without an enforced consensus, but I'd rather not do things that way.
tl;dr I don't want whether "Being the concept of war in your verse" means you scale to all of fiction or not to depend on who's in the thread.
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