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Thankfully, this point is not contested. However, I will stick to my guns and state that it they are not, nor will they ever be, skill feats. They are unquantifiable nonsense put in because and author does not understand what it means to be skilled. Acting as though they are skill feats is ridiculous, and the most it does is establish them in their own verse.This is a point that I have argued quite a bit ever since i started the whole skill thing and i've tried to make it common knowledge that indeed "i cut concepts with skill and then yeeted the entire fate of the universe" is not skill. And the OP even captured the reasoning correctly: "we cannot be certain what level of skill is needed to perform these hax, and thus they should be considered non-feats", or as i usually say "they are not quantifiable". So not only do I agree, but i have also tried to make this common knowledge for as long as i've been debating skill. However i do not agree with the wording "is not a skill feat", they are skill feats, just not sensical enough for us to put a metric on them.
You misunderstand my reasoning, my logic, and my argument, all in one singular section of your response.This is where the points start getting a bit bad now. "Close a 7.5X AP gap". Skill does not allow you to close a gap, it allows you to fight despite the gap. And the AP can be as high as it wants, it does not matter to us, if the reasoning is good enough that is. If the reasoning isn't good enough the character would just scale to those characters. If he outright just reflects their attacks i don't see why a 9-B beating a 5-A matters, it's not that he's doing it through means we don't understand. So that AP gap just gets flung out of the window, you need good reasoning, not a number. Now on to speed. While it is true that you can't just beat a dude 1 million times faster, there is an issue.
Let's assume a gap of 3 and 7. Character X can beat a dude that's 3x faster (with skill), character Y can beat a dude that is 7x faster (also through skill). According to the OP we are supposed to say "X > Y" even though Y outright did the same thing X did but better. Any normal human would have trouble with that level of speed, however it is pretty stupid to say a character who did a lesser feat is the superior one in skill. It just doesn't work. So just get rid of that entire point as it leads to pretty stupid claims.
The issue is, we consider feats of "knowing" as equal to feats of "doing". Being stated to "know" all forms of combat is not, and should not be considered equal to, actually performing dedicated moves from a fighting style. Even more so if the demonstrated feats in combat are woefully inadequate to how someone would actually fight if given such skill.Knowledge =/= Skill. While true, this claim is also very short sighted. When we use the term "skill" in discussions, we tend to think of "Combat Proficiency", and when it comes to Combat Proficiency knowledge and skill both are a factor, so they both play into the same thing. And if you made this point while not having Combat Proficiency in mind, then what did you have in mind? What's the point of arguing "skill" if you think of it as such an incomplete term that does, on it's own, not determine the outcome of a fight? While i do agree that not all knowledge comes in play in a fight, knowledge needs skill and skill needs knowledge you can't just separate the 2 completely (just because you know where the pressure points are doesn't mean you can attack your opponent's pressure points, on the other hand just because you could theoretically attack them doesn't mean you can attack them if you don't know where they are). So this point while while it is not right, it is not wrong either and should be judged on a case by case basis instead.
...Musashi's fate hax isn't skill, as the first point specifically states. You deny your own agreement to attempt to argue a different point."Skill is outright inferior to reality warping". Ok this point is just disgusting i have no idea where you came up with this honestly. Skill is not inferior to reality warping. Skill can be thought of as a source for whatever you can do, where it all comes from, not that it is weaker. And i know the first thought is "well are you saying skill is stronger", and my answer would be "NO! I am saying skill or reality warping have (let me emphasize this part) nothing to do with potency they are the means to something not how strong something is". Cus at that point i might as well say well Amane Shinomiya has Fate Manip from magic whereas Musashi has Fate Manip from skill therefore Amane's Fate Hax > Musashi's Fate Hax, even though the later can do stuff on a 2-A level whereas the former can't. People, potency has nothing to do with where something comes from (magic, chi, chakra, skill, nen, [insert thing here]), feats are what decide it's potency.
"If the mehcanics of an ability are different that does not mean the same resistance will work." Indeed. Inducing biological death would bypass resistance to fate induced death. However, this does not apply to skill, as skill works within the confines of reality, whereas Reality Warping fundamentally breaks reality.On the other part of this point though: "hax granted via skill cannot and will never be able to surpass resistance to reality warping hax". Assuming we got the "potency has nothing to do with where it comes from" out of the way. This is again a very bad point. Skill based abilities can definitely bypass resistances to reality warping hax, however they do not do so through being stronger. As DontTalkDT has said before (which is 1 of the statements i most agree with on this site) if the mechanics of an ability are different that does not mean that the same resistance will work, because the hax worked different mechanically. To give an example like Death Hax, if you resist Fate Induced Death Hax, it does not mean you resist Biological Induced Death Hax (ofc assuming we're not talking about Immortalities here). In other words, skill is not more powerful or weaker than reality warping, but just because sth from skill and sth from Reality Warping seem to achieve the same effect, does not mean they work in the same way which means it is not necessarily true that the resistance to Reality Warping will work. Conclusion: Skill can/may bypass resistance to Reality Warping, but not because of potency, it may bypass resistance because it works much different to what the opponent resisted.
A standardized set of rules for controversial feats and abilities, especially with something as potentially subjective as skill, will help avoid wank and downplay. This has been done on multiple occasions in regards to multiple things aside from skill.The last thing i want to talk about is "making a page" or "making a blog" about this. I die a bit inside everytime someone's solution to a debate is "make a page/blog". We are a versus "debating" site, but everyday we stray further from the "debating" part. We make a page about everything so there is no more debate anymore.
If you're capable enough, debate your way through all the arguments someone throws at you, don't just "well there is a page about it lul". We don't need a page or blog for every single thing, this is something that only gets debated in few threads and that's it, might as well just make a blog or page for what happens when Fate vs Probability clash, what happens when EE vs Death Manip clash. Just no, absolutely not, debate these things on a case by case basis stop trying to make a page about everything. As someone who has debated skill for quite a while now, I can safely say, skill absolutely does not need a page to be debated, especially considering how broad the concept is, you can shut down arguments with reason and it will work out.
Indeed, that is not a mechanical difference. The Prediction to Future Sight definitely is though.There's no really a mechanical difference between "this guy is so skilled he can manipulate its fate" and "this guy is pretty skilled, and also has Self-Fate Manipulation"; that said, I wouldn't buy "this guy is more skilled cuz his skill allows him to manipulate fate" cuz that do not really means anything, like, how skilled is that? How that would help it against someone that is pretty good with Pankration and Stealth Mastery (not taking the fate hax into the equation)?
Yeah I am agreeing with that.@Rocker Putting aside how Skill shouldn't be considered its own category, I'm talking about how even if it was, I think these different ways of creating fate hax should usually share resistances.
Because my point is that fate manipulation affects the fate of the target regardless of the mechanics getting to that point, this is not like mind manipulation that can go through any medium or precognition that has completely different ways of predicting an outcome at the end of the day it is still manipulating the targets fate. which means that there is no way resisting power based fat emanip is different to resisting "skill" based fate manip. Same with reality warping.Rocker, yeah but why use that as an example then?
I thought the argument was about skill based reality warping vs reality warping as a power and whether resisting one means resisting the other or one being better than the other. My answer to that being neither is better and having resistance to reality warping means that you resist both. This is specifically for reality warping and anything like it (law manip/fate manip etc) not for any power."Does skill based stuff get negged by resistance to reality warping stuff?"