Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato

[Firephoenixearl]

Can take down someone massively stronger, sure. I already adressed that though:

Mikumo Kushinada who is Advanced Grand Master (the 2nd highest rank), has a disciple. That disciple is a 13 or so year old girl with a small body, yet she goes around desimating people way beyond her league physically casually (people who should be more or less comparable to kenichi in stats).

The style is called Kushinada Style:

When most people use 30% skill and 70% skill in techniques, she uses an absolute 100% skill and 0% strength.

So he would sit still in the High Class Disciple.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Katsumi's pressure points and his joint feats are likely his best feats in terms of sheer shown skill. The attack is done through aligning his joints perfectly, so that should actually take priority over the AP of the thing. ( AP feats aren't really much of a skill feat, hence why I didn't use any in Kuroki's showcase. )

 

[BakiHanma18]

Katsumi's pressure points and his joint feats are likely his best feats in terms of sheer shown skill. The attack is done through aligning his joints perfectly, so that should actually take priority over the AP of the thing. ( AP feats aren't really much of a skill feat, hence why I didn't use any in Kuroki's showcase. )

What did you have in mind? The thousands of joints aligning for a True Mach Punch, or the Pressure Points of the QMLS?

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Once I get my massive CRT's done would you like to debate Kuroki vs Hayato Earl? More of a fun debate as opposed to attempting to make Kuroki >>>> Hayato, I'd just like to know how his shit compares.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

@Baki


Both really, Katsumi strikes at several pressure points rapidly with his QMLS, True Mach Punch is more akin to crazy agility and body control.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Once I get my massive CRT's done would you like to debate Kuroki vs Hayato Earl? More of a fun debate as opposed to attempting to make Kuroki >>>> Hayato, I'd just like to know how his shit compares.

Anytime buddy. Assuming i know who Kuroki is

 

[BakiHanma18]

@Prince makes a good point, so as far as techniques go, this is Katsumi's move pool and what they require to use, such as the pressure points of QMLS, the 8 joints perfect alignment of Mach Punch, and the iirc one thousand joint alignment of Hitless Blow

• His move pool consists of the Seike, the Ippon Ke, the Axe Kick, the Headbutt, Kick Killing Scissors, the Quadruple Median Line Strike, the Five Vital Points Consecutive Attacks, and of course the Mach Punch and Hitless Blow

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Up to like the hitless blow, literally do not even make the cut for Middle Class Disciple.

 

[BakiHanma18]

I suppose High Disciple makes sense, as current Katsumi skill stomps people we've agreed are Mid and High like any of the convicts and even himself and comparable combatants from earlier in the series. Considering Katsumi is only considered a 3rd Dan in Karate for the verse, I'd say this is a pretty good placement

Next to discuss is Retsu Kaioh. To recap, he is considered impressive amongst Kaiohs who skill stomp the guys who do the boulder feat, the wave feat, and the candle feat. He was the 3rd most skilled participant in the Maximum Tournament, only losing to Baki because of Incomplete DB doubling his stats. He's the second best in China, only behind Kaku by the time of his death. He is truly one of few in the verse to have mastered his martial art, a martial art with 4,000 years of history and refinement

His notable techniques include

ttps://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Spinning_Lotus

https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Sunkei

https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Invisible_Squash

https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Toe_Use

https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Windmill_Punch

https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Crushing_Fist

https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Mach_Punch

https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Musunkei

https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Defensive_Shaori

https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Roll_Kick

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Speaking of which I plan on doing a Baki: Powers and abilities CRT soon, a lot of the descriptions of the abilities just link to The Baki Wiki, which isn't an actual source and it has extremely vague descriptions, some of which don't even have any.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Speaking of which I plan on doing a Baki: Powers and abilities CRT soon, a lot of the descriptions of the abilities just link to The Baki Wiki, which isn't an actual source and it has extremely vague descriptions, some of which don't even have any.

I think Prom plans to address powers and abilities in her CRT (and when I CRT'd Yujiro's page, I tried to stray away from using the wiki as much as possible, though I haven't done this with all the profiles)

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Honestly the Verse just needs a revision as a whole, not on the AP ( aside from Yujiro but Prom said she'd handle it.) Baki is a long ass Manga that needs a read, and it's best if we used the Manga to provide feats for the profiles rather than YouTube clips. ( Easier to navigate and it would take much less space than what they have rn. )

 

[BakiHanma18]

Honestly the Verse just needs a revision as a whole, not on the AP ( aside from Yujiro but Prom said she'd handle it.) Baki is a long ass Manga that needs a read, and it's best if we used the Manga to provide feats for the profiles rather than YouTube clips. ( Easier to navigate and it would take much less space than what they have rn. )

I have a site I can use for manga feats once the verse revision takes place, I've been looking for one for this reason

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Those abilities don't really look impressive.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

@Earl


Kuroki is from Kengan Asura, which is a lot like Baki but with better art. The amount of skill feats in the verse are pretty much up there with Baki's aside from Yujiro. Lots of crazy shit mate

 

[BakiHanma18]

Those abilities don't really look impressive.

I was just thinking over how some of them straight counter some of the stuff I'm aware of in Kenichi like Sieg's 180 degree head turn getting countered by Spinning Lotus, Sunkei countering and Musunkei hard countering Kenichi "taking up space" thing, as well as how impressive his other abilities are like of course the perfect alignment of the 8 arm joints required for Mach Punch, the weaponizing of air from Invisible Squash, the skill required to be able to master Toe Use, using your toes to hit pressure points and grab hairs and such, Crushing Fist basically negging speed and strength to a certain degree, Defensive Xiao-Lee begin what it is, and Roll Kick begin a kinda useful move, though Roll Kick probably not being the most skillful, skill-requiring move at this level

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Wait actually, the Spinning Lotus gets countered by Sieg's 180 degree turn. Cus you can't snap his neck.

I'll respond to the others later.

 

[Obscenly]

Wait actually, the Spinning Lotus gets countered by Sieg's 180 degree turn. Cus you can't snap his neck.
I'll respond to the others later.

serious question tho, which of these two would win in a fight?

 

[BakiHanma18]

Wait actually, the Spinning Lotus gets countered by Sieg's 180 degree turn. Cus you can't snap his neck.
I'll respond to the others later.

180 degree turn only protects him from a non lethal Spinning Lotus like the one Retsu uses on the Sambo guy. The lethal one that Baki uses on Retsu after activating Incomplete Demon Back basically bends your neck ~90 degrees before he even spins, leading to a roughly 270 degree snap of the neck

 

[BakiHanma18]

Wait actually, the Spinning Lotus gets countered by Sieg's 180 degree turn. Cus you can't snap his neck.
I'll respond to the others later.

serious question tho, which of these two would win in a fight?

That's what we're here to find out I guess lol

 

[Obscenly]

Wait actually, the Spinning Lotus gets countered by Sieg's 180 degree turn. Cus you can't snap his neck.
I'll respond to the others later.

serious question tho, which of these two would win in a fight?

That's what we're here to find out I guess lol

Pretty sure Yujiro has an AP and speed advantage doesn't he?

 

[BakiHanma18]

Wait actually, the Spinning Lotus gets countered by Sieg's 180 degree turn. Cus you can't snap his neck.
I'll respond to the others later.

serious question tho, which of these two would win in a fight?

That's what we're here to find out I guess lol

Pretty sure Yujiro has an AP and speed advantage doesn't he?

As of now, but for 1 thing, Yujiro is getting a downgrade attempt soon. There's enough proof to keep, at a worst case scenario, 7-C Demon Back Yujiro, but I digress.

We're figuring out the skill aspect right now, so as far as a real deal fight, well, I honestly have no idea rn

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Anyway onto the points.

You're underestimating how much Siegfried can turn his head (turned it another 90 degrees to scream in the dude's ear). And that is casually/willingly. It would take quite a bit more than that to actually break his neck. He also got up from this like nothing.

Musunkei doesn't counter anything lol. You missunderstood what Ryusui Seikuken does, it doesn't get close to you to avoid getting hit, he takes up the space you want. As in, he already knows where you want to put your hand or your foot, he has that spot already occupied before you reach it. And that's just the 3rd stage. The 1st stage is a lot of dodging, any kind of attack that comes his way.

The rest aren't countering anything and they really aren't all that impressive. Retsu's Xiao lee would just be middle class level with Siegfried existing.

The invisible squash is just lung power which siegfried already surpasses as he can insta KO dudes instead of just spitting air balls.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Anyway onto the points.
You're underestimating how much Siegfried can turn his head (turned it another 90 degrees to scream in the dude's ear). And that is casually/willingly. It would take quite a bit more than that to actually break his neck. He also got up from this like nothing.

Musunkei doesn't counter anything lol. You missunderstood what Ryusui Seikuken does, it doesn't get close to you to avoid getting hit, he takes up the space you want. As in, he already knows where you want to put your hand or your foot, he has that spot already occupied before you reach it. And that's just the 3rd stage. The 1st stage is a lot of dodging, any kind of attack that comes his way.

The rest aren't countering anything and they really aren't all that impressive. Retsu's Xiao lee would just be middle class level with Siegfried existing.

The invisible squash is just lung power which siegfried already surpasses as he can insta KO dudes instead of just spitting air balls.

So if he can turn his head 270 degrees, he should be fine. If he can't he won't be. Also, Retsu got up from visibly and audibly getting his neck ****** by the startup of a lethal Spinning Lotus from Baki and immediately went back to fighting without so much as blinking

That doesn't matter. Musunkei is a KO punch from 0mm, so even if he blocks Retsu from even positioning his arm, let alone extending it, Retsu can still punch with full power completely unimpeded

Does the Kenichiverse have any feats or moves to match or compare to things like the perfect alignment of all 8 arm joint for Mach Punch, the skill required to use your toes to hit pressure points at a master level, a move that outright weaponizes the opponent's speed against them, or Defensive Xiao-Lee?

No, lung power would be like Gaia deafening an entire stadium of people with a scream. Retsu is inhaling massive amounts of air, even expanding his torso (body control), focusing the air with his lips and fingers (precision), and spitting a literal bullet of air into the eyes of his opponents to creating an opening where there previously was none

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I've told you, do not quote large blocks of text, it makes the thread much longer than what it should be. Just say "@Earl" or just quote the text, but delete it so that your post gets the "Reply to #xxx". Either would work.

So? He can do it from any distance, but the footwork still needs to be there. Ryusui Seikuken makes it hard to generate power cus he's constantly taking up what would be your moves. There is a move that does a similarly 0 range hit it really isn't a counter to Ryusui Seikuken.

All 8 arm joints and weaponizing your opponent's hit get both outdone massively by Taiho. It alligns all the joints perfectly, not just those of the arm and it weaponizes the opponent's speed to reflect their attack with more force. Defensive Xiao Lee not only gets massively dwarfed by Middle Class Siegfried's feats in defense against attacks, but there is this.

It is still lung power. He's inhaling so much air that he can form a ball of it by spitting it too hard. Though besides, if it's about screaming/air pressure.

 

[BakiHanma18]

You're right, my bad. I'll try to remember to in the future

The effect is the same, but the mechanics are entirely different. To use Takusousho, even disregarding the combo aspect involved, the user has to use their other hand to strike their elbow. Retsu literally punches at full strength at 0mm. The Sunkei is literally the one inch punch save for the distance being even smaller, so even if Kenichi were to stand directly where Retsu was going to place his arm, a KO punch can be launched at 0mm distance. Forgive me for being blunt, but, in sight that Taksousho requires a leadin and Musunkei doesn't, Taksousho requires the other arm hitting the elbow to generate force when Musunkei doesn't, and the fact that Taksousho is fallible as it's effect isn't immediate (the user must first place their hand on the opponent's chin before initiating the attack by hitting their elbow), Musukei is not only fundamentally better and less fallible, but it is also mostly completely different in mechanics and use

Taiho's all perfect joint alignment is better than Mach Punch, but Hitless Blow is massively better than Taiho, perfectly aligning thousands of joints when there are only 360 joints in the entire human body. As far as Taiho to Crushing Fist, they do almost the exact same thing. As for Xiao-Lee, even Retsu's Xiao-Lee seems to outdo what I'm seeing

Lung power has little to nothing to do with it. As I already said, the king power aspect ends with inhaling lots of air. He also expands his torso to house the air (body control), and condenses the air into a roughly quarter sized bullet with his lips and fingers (precision) and uses it to create an opening in an opponent's defenses

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It doesn't really matter that the mechanics are different. Because my point is "dealing damage at 0 range is not gonna help you counter Seikuken". Cus as i said, he can do that at any range, but not in any position. He's constantly getting zoned in. And then again, there is also Mubyoshi which can only be used when the opponent is touch level close (0mm), but it still doesn't counter ryusui seikuken nor normal seikuken (it countered normal seikuken once, but that's because it cannot be predicted and lacks rythym not cus of the range).

As for hitless blow. He doesn't "perfectly align thousands of joints", he literally lacks thousands of joints, he just relaxes his body and imagines like it's made of thousands of joints. Taiho vs Crushing fist, Taiho is far more impressive as Crushing fist is a punch on its own, where as Taiho is using literally 0 strength to do it. Retsu's Xiao Lee in terms of defense gets massively outdone by Siegfried's middle class defensive Nirvana No Cannon. Im just talking about relaxation, relaxing to the point of taking 0 damage and countering with that force.

Inhaling a lot of air is lung capacity (which i was referring to as lung power) though, not body control. As for condensing the air, it's literally just putting his slightly open fist in front of his mouth. And as i said in terms of air feats, nothing in Baki is topping Hayato's feat i showed above.

 

[BakiHanma18]

The mechanics being different is the entire reason why Musunkei works and Taksousho doesn't. Musunkei can be used in almost any position. It's one thing to stop an opponent from being able to extend their arm or reposition an already extended arm, but Retsu literally only needs to make physical contact with his fist to use this. He can't be zoned in, due to the fact that Retsu can go to punch, that space is taken up by the user's body, and that literally puts them in the perfect position to get Musunkei'd. Can I see this move? And if at all possible it's interaction with Seikuken

Yes, he's literally imagining that his body is made of thousands of joints and aligning all of them perfectly, which is considerably better than 360 joints. If Taiho uses 0 strength, then yes, it would be better than Crushing Fist. Nirvana no Cannon is not even as good as Retsu's Xiao-Lee. It's literally just him rotating in the direction of the attack, even 13 year old Baki could do that with Roll Kick. Retsu's Xiao-Lee allows him to get sliced with swords from someone massively stronger than him with no damage, as well as other things, such as Sieg needing to consciously pirouette in the direction of the attack or at least be in a position to rotate in the same direction, whereas Xiao-Lee is straight mitigation. No matter what position the user is in, regardless of conscious effort, once it's activated, all hits will be mitigated. The move has 2 weaknesses, and one (being hit from above) Kaku literally solves by rotating in the direction of Yujiro's attack

The expansion of one's torso to contain their massive lungs which have expanded with air is body control. I would be more shocked than anything if a Retsu feat could top Hayato, but regardless, the Air Bullet also has the amazing practical use of creating an opening in an opponent's defense, such as Katsumi's Mach Punch stance covering highs, mids, and lows, yet Retsu opened his defense with this and used Sunkei to oneshot

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hmm. Mubyoshi. Combined all martial arts to create a technique which punches through an enemy , creating "no beats", causing internal damage and damaging the 5th fist past his Round Attack. This attack has no rythym and no sign that it will attack. This is mubyoshi. It fooling normal seikuken is there, and a the next page i believe shows Kenichi trying again but getting owned this time cus the only reason it worked before is cus the attack lacks "rythym" and cannot be predicted.

Yes, but he's not aligning anything, it's all imagination. He's not aligning any joints he's just imagining like there are joints to align, which is not nearly as impressive as kenichi aligning all joints of his body to reflect attacks. Yes so does Nirvana no Cannon. He can do the "rotation" even when he's hit without him expecting it, Xiao Lee does it via relaxation, he does it differently but there is not a case where Nirvana no Cannon gets outdone in terms of feats. As for 13 year old baki, no, turning to an attack you're expecting, to attack back. Don't even try to compare that to all of Sieg's feats who does that to grabs, several attackers at the same time etc etc etc.

If your opponent is anything even remotely comparable to you it won't go like Retsu vs Katsumi. Katsumi got humiliated that fight. But let's move on, Hayato massively outdoes.

 

[BakiHanma18]

For the Sieg fight, on page 7, for one, the explanation sounds like Goutaijutsu, a Maximum Tournament level technique, and Kenichi is seen moving several feet. Even the position at the top of page 6 is way more distance than then worse Sunkei. As far as internal damage, even Joe Frazier could do that, and he's a worse boxer than Ali. And finally, as far as Odin's countering it, that would work for Sunkei, but it's literally impossible to do that for Musunkei, as there's not even enough room between Retsu's fist and, say, Odin's torso or face. It is literally 0 distance

It is massively more impressive. He's imagining his body has thousands of joints, and obviously it's not as simple as "I imagine it, so it's easy" because 1) Even Kaku calls it the perfect technique, 2) it achieves massively better results than the Mach Punch, and 3) even disregarding what we're shown, not only is the power of imagination shown in Baki like well over 10 times to have a physical effect through Baki's Imagination Style, Baki's Imagine Boxing, Yujiro's Imagine Style, and Nomi's Sumo Spirit, but if it was anything less than as described, people like Baki's who's been shown to almost instantly pick up most every technique he's seen (including Mach Punch itself), should be able to use it all with the added durability to tank the downside.

As far as Nirvana, "He performs a pirouette on one foot, with his arms aloft and hands positioned outwards by his sides, using the rotationary force to either depend from attacks, or to enhance the force of his blows." That's literally what Kid Baki does. Can it do stuff outside of this like rotate attacks he isn't expecting, rotate grabs, or rotate multiple attacks? Sure, but that's just a massively better version of Kid Baki's Rolling Kick, which even Retsu's Xiao-Lee is insanely above. Speaking of, as for feats, Retsu no sold sword slashes from Musashi who's thousands of times stronger

Sure, except Katsumi literally fights Retsu to a draw very shorter afterward, as well as beats Dorian within an inch of his life, so unless Katsumi has AD that we haven't learned about, Retsu and Katsumi were comparable in skill and speed (as their profiles say), but Retsu was physically stronger and Katsumi was massively injured from his fight with Hanayama

Edit: also, no, dude literally just shouts loudly, that's not skill. Skill would be turning air into a bullet to blind your opponent to create an opening

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Kenichi moves after hitting him, so basically the movement is part of the hit, rather than gaining speed for it. Odin counters it by predicting, he couldn't the 1st time because of resistance to analytical prediction and lacking rythym, but as you can see, even though Mubyoshi starts at 0 distance, he can still counter it. Though my bad he actually catches it even the 1st time. He just doesn't completely trash it like he does the 2nd time where he doesn't even bother with not giving him distance.

That's useless saying "Xiao Lee is immensly above" when none have feats even comparable to it. Being crashed or not being able to roll has been Xiao Lee's biggest weakness. A weakness NnC lacks. It can work on grabs, which Xiao Lee has never shown. And i have huge issues with your "Baki did a piruet on 1 leg and hit" yet that somehow being comparable to something that has hundreds of more and better feats just because at its very base its similar. It's like saying Pickle or Jack are as good as Goki Shibukawa at Aiki because they understood the absolute basics of the style so in terms of ability they're technically doing the same thing. Yes but Gouki has more feats with Aiki than they have years of life. Not a reason to make the 2 comparable otherwise Retsu's Xiao Lee would also be = to Kaku's Xiao Lee because they're doing the same thing.

Yes he trashed him in skill too. And Katsumi specfically says after their draw fight that "this man completely fodderized me in the semi finals before yet look at us now" or something along those lines implying that he was incapable of pullin off such a feat in the semi finals.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Regardless, like I said, even the start distance with his fingers pressed against Odin is still only comparable to Sunkei. Mubyoshi doesn't start at 0 distance. He starts with both hands in a knife formation, similar to the one inch punch or the Sunkei. https://images.app.goo.gl/nYcFvuzUJ1Kk6ojk9 < this is 0 distance, the Musunkei

If a user of NnC was either A) cratered into a wall, they would not be able to use the move because it would be impossible to rotate or B) unable to roll, aka vertical rotation, they wouldn't even be able to use the move to defend against vertical attacks. NnC is literally just rotating in the direction of an attack. Xiao-Lee even at Retsu's level is taking an attack and offering 0 resistance, mitigating the attack and taking 0 damage from a direct hit, which is objectively better than just rotating with the attack. Jack and Pickle are comparable to Shibukawa's Aiki, as both Jack and Pickle have mastered Aiki to the point of using it in combat, which 9 other masters that have enough skill to be considered 9 of the 10 masters of Aiki in the last 100 years. Shibukawa is just massively better, like the Roll Kick and NnC. At its core, the 2 moves use the same fundamental mechanics, it's just that NnC is massively better, as it can be applied to more situations

Because like I said, Retsu oneshot him. That has absolutely nothing to do with skill, Katsumi was destroyed by Hanayama AND Retsu was massively stronger. Katsumi literally stalemated him in their first match, as Retsu honestly believed he couldn't get passed the Mach Punch stance (hence his use of Invisible Squash). And of course Katsumi said Retsu beat him, that's what happened. He, however never made any mention of skill or technique.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It still doesn't mean he can do it in any position. Any distance from the fist is not any position. Oh btw very loosly high class or middle class ppl can do the 0 distance hit (insta KO as it disrupts the brain too, it works against significanlty more powerful peeps).

A) Wrong, they still reflect using their inner strength.

B) Again as stated above, using inner strength. Though here he is defending against vertical attacks without using inner strength too.

Yes that is what im saying, they are fundamentally doing the same thing, but NnC does it FAR better and to much greater extents. If i run and a lamborghini drives and we try to have a speed contest. We are effectively doing the same thing, moving, but it doesn't mean our speed is comparable.

Sike, as i've said above, i do not care enough for Baki scaling to continue the debate here. Hayato massively outdoes any air or screaming feat so let's move on.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Not any position, no, but with the flexibility of someone like Retsu or God forbid Yujiro, there are very few positions that fist contact can't be made and likely no position that can't be worked around to use Musunkei with the Bali god-tier body control

A) What is this "inner strength" aspect? Wiki only mentions basic footwork and rotatiom

B) In the link I'm seeing, Sieg literally just rolls sideways

Right, NnC massively outdoes Roll Kick, but to continue the analogy, depending on what inner strength is, Xiao-Lee would either be a jet fighter or at least a Koenigsegg Agera

No, not as far as I've seen. Gaia can scream loud enough to deafen an entire stadium and temporarily stun Sikorsky and Gaia isn't even a martial artist. Screaming loudly isn't a skill feat, weaponizing air for the purpose of creating an opening is a skill feat

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I gave you middle class/very low High Class disciples doing that same thing to a greater extent btw. (edited the post above).

A) Never explained in detailed ways, but it is a thing he can do.

B) Yes, you mentioned he can't do anything about vertical attacks, i say he can not only reflect using inner strength but he can also roll sideways. In other words he can roll your attack no matter how it comes xD. He's the king of rolling. Sieg be like.

Nice. On inner strength it matters little if it cannot outdo Sieg's feats (since Sieg's inner strength counter are literally 0 movement, which Xiao Lee is incapabel of performing).

Hayato can weaponize air to stop an entire military force from kilometers away with air pressure alone. Do you seriously intent to argue any further? Though all masters can perform pseudo flight by jumping in the air so really, do not dive down this rabit hole.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yeah, that's actually pretty much the same deal as Musunkei, though the brain signal disruption is definitely an added bonus

After reading the whole Chapter, my impression of NnC isn't as good as before. Even when using NnC, he takes slight damage, and his inner strength, while it is impressive body control, basically seems to be an offensive version of Oliva's The Orb muscle control and it can only counter moves he's physically strong enough to clash and possibly overcome with said inner strength. Massively head over heels above most counters in Baki, but even farther from Xiao-Lee than I initially thought

I meant he can't do anything about vertical attacks without rolling in response to Kaku having to roll to make up for Xiao-Lee's weakness. Both Sieg and Kaku respond to vertical attacks the same way.

So far, only the Defensive Xiao-Lee of Retsu alone seems to be the Agera (jet fighter seems to be a bit too extreme considering how impressive a technique NnC is)

Again, isn't he literally just screaming? That's not even skill. Retsu is condensing air into a small ball with the intent of creating an opening in one's defense. It can't be used on multiple people simultaneously and it doesn't do any damage as it's just air, but it has a practical use, it's a difficult technique to use. Hayato is just yelling

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He does not take any damage. Here is masters and Hayato stating, that he nullifies attacks completely. It doesn't work only against move's he's strong enough to tank. And even then has has dealt with 3 attacks from different sides at the same time something no one in baki can acomplish.

Except Sieg does it con bravura (don't mind me, just a siegfried joke).

No lol, NnC has feats massively beyond anyone, not just Retsu's Xiao Lee.

He is, but these guys are the same level of physical AP...roughly, yet Hayato can do it. Similarly, a dude being capable of inhaling so much air he can make a bullet out of it, really won't matter. And besides, in high class you have actual blind people, it's not gonna help.

 

[BakiHanma18]

But that's contradicted by what I see in the next chapter, with marks on his face and clothes. It may be mere scratches and light bruises, in other words completely negligible, but the contradiction exists. Inner strength looks to be him basically clashing attacks with his muscles, not only that, but even the name would indicate that that aspect is 100% reliant on strength, so while the rotation negs above his own strength, inner strength has nothing to indicate as such. Also, that's not true. Even Retsu tanks 4 slashes in different places (1 slash hitting 4 times at insanely high speeds) almost at once and is unscathed https://imgur.com/a/Pjouu6V

Sieg is a beautiful man and should be treasured

Like? Retsu of course still being able to no-sell slashes from the thousands of time stronger Musashi

AP isn't really the issue, anyone capable of inhaling enough air and producing enough noise could replicate the feat, someone like Kirby or Buu come to mind. To do what Retsu did would be a skill feat, Hayato is just yelling. And the amount is just so that he has air worth condensing also, Doppo has a handy fix for blind people, but I'll get to that

 

[Moritzva]

My, Hayato really came out of nowhere on the skill thread, didn't he? Damn. I should toss him against The Throne next, maybe.

I already made a Yujiro match, though.

Following.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I'll answer later. About hayato, he is somewhat haxed so it could work I guess.