Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato

[Firephoenixearl]

Those aren't from the kicks he's reflecting. Those are because of:

1. He was training before then spent 3 days searching for the tournament (so that's why he falls asleep mid fight)

2. He was just getting hit (not reflecting) before nijima gave him the order to fight. So those are bruises from that. He's not getting any damage from what he counters/reflects.

Strength sure but inner strength is more like organ strength or core strength, it's different from AP. It's the kind of strength they use to tank blows that damage internals.

Show me the feat of those 4 slashes.

Thousands of times no. No vsbw tier scaling. But he tanks blows from masters. But there is more to attack reflection than magnitude. It's versatility, usability and limitations which sieg all takes in this.

Blindness, esp, seikuken etc say no to any eyeball attack attempt so let's end this, it is a very... bad point. I could argue against it being skill at all but let's move on, it doesn't matter in the long run cus it's still not beyond HCD. Also how many more ppl do we have to go through this is becoming boring.

 

[BakiHanma18]

If that's the case, then my faith is restored, however, in terms of just not taking damage, 13 year old Baki took 0 damage from Yujiro's attack. While Yujiro was massively hold back in the fight, he was still able to hold a casual conversation as Baki was continuously hitting him from all angles on the face and body

That still sounds like durability, just a durability that would work against some forms of durability negation like Joe Fraiser's punches. It's definitely a skilled technique, but not something that would allow someone to achieve the same results as NnC and Xiao-Lee

I did, I already linked it

Speaking of, why no Vs Battle scaling? Why wouldn't we use accepted values for the site we're using? Regardless Retsu, who has shown to be planets away from the likes of Yujiro in strength (a strong martial artist vs a walking nuclear bomb), no sold Musashi's swords. Not only can these same swords cut Yujiro's skin and thin layers of muscles, but they're obviously swords, swords which have aspects of minor durability negation due to sharpness

How is it even remotely a bad point? Literally unless you're blind or can read minds, Invisible Squash is a great move that one can use to blind an opponent out of their range without a single item. Regardless of its effectiveness against the likes of the blind and telepathic, it is a technique that is conventionally useful and impressive.

Those left are: finishing up Retsu, Doppo (this one may take awhile), Che (probably skipping him), Motobe (only a few martial arts feats, but he deserves his ranking), Shibukawa (Doppo 2.0), and then the god-tiers of which there are 5: Yuichiro, Kaku, Baki, Musashi, and Yujiro

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Best not to use that baki example. Yujiro was far too casual. Though i don't know why yujiro talking mid fight is a feat. Baki couldn't do shit to him.

It's part of it but it is still a bonus ability.

I don't get how that is 4 attacks. Try linking a chapter. Maybe im missing comtext. But even then it's 4 same attacks, same direction, place, angle etc. Sieg did it against attacks from different directions.

Yes yet those aspects of dura neg were showing by cutting retsu. It wasn't even a full counter so still just countering a stronger opponent. Sieg can do that (against berserker, although got stomped by him eventually cus he's berserker)

Yes but everyone in this class can counter it so what's the point?

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Honestly I agree with Xiao-Lee being better than NnC, but only in certain aspects.

 

[BakiHanma18]

That's what I mean, Baki was so much weaker than Yujiro he couldn't even damage an ultra casual Yujiro, yet he took no damage from Yujiro's attack. To show that Yujiro would've definitely smashed the shit out of Baki if he hadn't rotated with the attack, Yujiro actually Roll Kick's the Roll Kick and smashes the **** outta Baki (he rotates the rotation)

Which makes it a good bonus, but to put this in perspective: being between a Yujiro and a hard place. If Sieg was cratered into the wall like Kaku, he couldn't rotate. If he tried to use inner strength to defend, he get creamed. That said, if Yujiro was replaced by someone comparable to Sieg, it would definitely be useful

Its not clearly outlined Kaku's line of attack (as all we can see is his one slice), but we only see him swing once and he said he attacked 4 times (I'll try to find the chapter, but I'm not sure if it will help)

True, but to take into consideration: Retsu's Xiao-Lee is the worst in the series, he was completely uncut by Kaku Kaioh's cuts with his sword, and Retsu's massively inferior Xiao-Lee still saved him from fatal wounds again swords that could cut Yujiro Hanma

Separate from being used specifically against the Kenichiverse, it's still a practical and useful technique. The time when Yujiro and Hayato real deal skill fight is coming up soon (everyone else on the skill change is pretty concrete with feats), I'm just trying to figure out roughly how skilled in general Yujiro and Hayato are, not so much what they'd be able to do to each other (yet)

 

[BakiHanma18]

Honestly I agree with Xiao-Lee being better than NnC, but only in certain aspects.

What aspects were you thinking?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Baki's not even able to roll against Yujiro's attack, Baki doing anything, counter included to Yujiro's attacks is plain bullshit. It was a completely casual Yujiro that was is not even good for scaling's worth. Im serious the skill difference is so massive that if it were a serious Yujiro, baki wouldn't have been able to do anything. Here is Sieg getting battered cus he refused to act without an order btw. Just check the following 5 pages or so.

Actually, Kaku was never cratered he kept getting slammed/pushed into a wall, thing which wouldn't happen to SIeg, he would never have been slammed.

Maybe he meant "4 xiao lee's in a row", as in they had tried the same thing 3 times before. But either way matters little, it's not even remotely comparable to this.

Yes, yet it was still "a true feather". And you're forgetting something, the swords that cut yujiro had that bit of dura neg too. Until better feats come up from the top 5 xiao lee, NnC is way beyond current Xiao Lee (retsu's).

Yeah but...it's just spitting air, hayato can fight with all his eyes closed, massively holding back, using just hearing yet he still trashes top class disciples like nothing. So a spit of air is really not gonna do anything. Also how is retsu inhaling a lot of air skill but Hayato doing the same is just ability?

 

[BakiHanma18]

It's literally the exact same mechanic as NnC, don't understand how that's BS. The scale is indeed massive, however we see 2 things in this fight clear as day: 1) Even Yujiro being this casual can completely no sell all of Baki's hits and can in all likelihood oneshot and 2) Baki takes no damage due to his rotation.

https://m.imgur.com/a/2KvjAqX also that's ignoring that Xiao-Lee and NnC function entirely differently

Its directly comparable to that, the only difference being Sieg's attacks happened at the same time, whereas Retsu wasn't hit at the same time, but there were very small intervals between hits

"True feather" is literally baseline for the skill, that's not really that amazing in comparison to other users. And that makes that even more impressive, as he was taking less damage than Yujiro despite the ungodly stat difference. I'm not seeing anything that actually makes NnC that impressive. From what I've seen, NnC is better than Retsu's Xiao-Lee, but not by much

I'd love to see someone even like Hayato try to just "spit air" and see the results. That's not to say Hayato couldn't use Invisible Squash (because I think he could) but it's not that simple. Because as I've said, inhaling air literally takes 0 skill, babies can do it. What you do with that air is the defining factor. Retsu condensing it into a bullet and being able to use it to blind someone several feat away is impressive and would take skill. Screaming is not a skill feat. If he was manipulating the pitch of his yell to knock them out like that, that would be impressive. If he's just projecting and yelling loud, that's not impressive. Gaia can do that, Uvogin from HxH can do it, it's not a skill feat

 

[KGiffoni]

In the time it took me to fix my PC you guys aren't over with this debate... w╠Âh╠Ây╠ ╠Âa╠Âm╠ ╠Âi╠ ╠Ân╠Âo╠Ât╠ ╠Âi╠Âm╠Âp╠Âr╠Âe╠Âs╠Âs╠Âe╠Âd╠Â

Soooo what are the current points being made?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok, but the attack used wasn't really one that was hard to rotate against. Compare to sieg taking several attacks at the same time, when off guard etc etc. He still massively takes it over kid baki, so let's drop this.

They function differently, but they're trying to acomplish the same thing. And yes, he was dug into concrete cus Xiao Lee still gets pushed. Sieg would have never been sent flying, resulting in never digging in concrete.

Yeah, and also the hits weren't from different spots and hard to dodge positions. That is literally just countering a single attack, but repeating it. Sieg is taking 2 attacks at the same time, from different spots which would allow for no spinning from Xiao Lee. Yet he still counters there, not comparable.

Ok so NnC is better than Retsu's Xiao Lee, we can agree here. How much is opinion, we'll have to wait for feats which would put it above NnC.

>If he was manipulating his pitch.

Hayato can literally make it so that only a single person can hear his words. Actually give direction to the sound waves he sends from his mouth. Don't question how, it just is. xD

 

[BakiHanma18]

In the time it took me to fix my PC you guys aren't over with this debate...
w╠Âh╠Ây╠ ╠Âa╠Âm╠ ╠Âi╠ ╠Ân╠Âo╠Ât╠ ╠Âi╠Âm╠Âp╠Âr╠Âe╠Âs╠Âs╠Âe╠Âd╠Â

Soooo what are the current points being made?

Comparing Retsu to the verse. So far, the verse has been capable of or better than most feat in Baki, though Xiao-Lee is still being argued and Hitless Blow's "thousands of joint perfect alignment" is the most impressive feat of its class

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Not sure about Katsumi actually having over 1000 joints tbh, if he did his anatomy would be like way different than that of an average human, like drastically different in terms of shape, posture and just about everything.


Retsu's Xiao-Lee is kinda irrelevant here though, since Yujiro scales to and above Kaku's Xiao-Lee which I'd argue is better than anything Sieg has shown going by the scans above.


Also I'll have to vote for Bando Yohei beating both these fodder when it comes to ****** up human anatomy- ovo

 

[BakiHanma18]

Regardless of the difficulty of being able to rotate the attack, 13 year old Baki was still able to replicate the basic function of NnC: rotating to avoid a massively damaging attack. Being able to do other things to make it more impressive is well and good, but this is 13 year old Baki here.

Even while abusing both of the weakness of Xiao-Lee, Yujiro, who is stated to be on par with a nuclear bomb or even above it several times, still couldn't effectively damage Kaku, who can't even lift chop sticks without his techniques

1) Unless the 2 attacks were in the exact same spot in opposite positions on the body, Xiao-Lee would still work. 2) A wall is massively different from a fist: the wall's surface area eclipsed Kaku completely, whereas their is nobody with a fist big enough in either Grappler Baki nor Kenichi to replicate said weakness without the use of an actual wall.

I'd say with all things considered, yes, NnC is superior to Retsu's Xiao-Lee

But Retsu's technique has a real world explanation. It's it actually possible? Probably not. Is it an exaggeration on something that is? Yes

 

[BakiHanma18]

He doesn't actually have thousands of joint, he just imagined that he does, using that wacky Baki "imagination becomes real" thing to use the Hitless Blow

Kaku's Xiao-Lee will be discussed, but that kind of skill is beyond people like Doppo and Shibukawa which we've yet to discuss

Until Baki makes his muscles have the same consistency as liquid ovo

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Ah I see so it's like Baki's Imagination Style? Then yeah that's a perfectly valid feat.


Kaku is gonna be the bread and butter of this thread tbh, pretty excited for when we get to that point lol.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Right, we even see his body made of joints in an X-Ray looking view https://i10.***********.net/baki-son-of-ogre/128/baki-son-of-ogre-740407.jpg

Oh yeah, like @ShadowSpooky says "10-Cs fighting 7-Cs alert" XD

 

[KGiffoni]

Tbf there are many "imagination styles" in Baki

Baki's/Yujiro's is more like sense manip + illusion creation + a bit of subjective reality

Mach Punch is basically imagining your body to be made of thousands of joints so that you can deliver a whip-like attack that boosts your combat speed immensely. It's compared to the way giraffes "wished" for longer necks to catch fruits in tall trees. It doesn't make much sense but it's there

Musashi's "imagination style" comes from pure skill

Etc

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Baki

Difficulty to rotate is a key point as that's what skill would imply. And did the very basic of basics of NnC fair enough. Still gets outskilled, so bad point, once we get into something that does outdo NnC then we'll have a debate on this. For now, gets outdone.

Bad point, Kaku was specifically unable to use Xiao Lee there, he was just taking the hits raw. Prom's revision will actually make Kaku a stone wall.

The wall has nothing to do with size, it just prevents rolling. As for Sieg's feat he was hit from behind and front. So yes no Xiao Lee there. But let's leave this for when Kaku comes into the discussion, seems like just a waste of time currently, since we'll still get to this.

Ok.

Ok so? Doesn't make it better than Hayato's feat.

Anyway, we settle on HCD for Retsu? If yes let's move on.

 

[BakiHanma18]

@Ikki ovo

Agreed. If the point is not just rotating strong attacks but rotating in difficult positions, yes, Roll Kick gets outdone by NnC head over heels

Kaku will no longer be 10-C? This info could be important to further arguments, so I'll hold off on the point until this is discussed

Rotation isn't needed for Xiao-Lee, they just move in the direction they've been set. The reason Xiao-Lee didn't work is because the kinetic energy had nowhere to go, as a counter force is applied as the back hits the wall. Yeah, Kaku needs to be sorted, so I'll leave the point for now

I thought we were only using real skill and not fictional stuff. The requirements to my understanding is that it has to be skill and it has to be something that could actually happen, even if it's an exaggeration of what could happen.

Yes, HCD seems to be right, even with scaling to Katsumi as well as other placements. Let's move on to Doppo

 

[BakiHanma18]

Also, minor stuff I forgot for Katsumi and Retsu

https://imgur.com/a/Ix3pf< Katsumi can cut bottles

https://youtu.be/16nDwdudUWo< Retsu is Jesus

 

[BakiHanma18]

To start with a simpler Doppo feat,

Doppo dominates several black belts at once by himself https://imgur.com/a/res6Z

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Baki

About the fictional stuff. The thing is, both are fictional, you can't make "balls of air". It will disperse. But again, if you're arguing "one can give air direction" and "one can give sound direction" despite one being pretty much impossible, it's not like you can say "the first one is more impressive". It would be different if it were unquantifiable, but in this case it is outright a better version of Retsu's feat....a much better version.

About the 2 feats on Katsumi and Retsu.

Katsumi: He's tier 9 or 8. I'd be amazed if he couldn't cut bottles.

Retsu: If you're talking about walking on water, it's just speed.

About doppo, unquantifiable skill feat cus none of those fodder have any good skill feats. So go onto something quantifiable rather than just scaling (cus that is just scaling above those guys).

 

[BakiHanma18]

Right, but the difference being Retsu's ball of air is replicatable in real life. It won't be nearly as condensed, and won't be able to go the same distance while being that effective, but Hayato's sound feat as I understand it is just downright impossible under any circumstances barring the use of technology

But as you can see in the manga panel I linked, he doesn't so much as crack the glass let alone shatter it. It's a clean cut that leaves the rest of the bottle pristine and intact

Even in that clip? He's able to walk on water even with another person on his back. There'd have to be elements of weight distribution, timing with your step, etc

They're multiple black belts. Black belts exist irl. They would at least be as skilled as real life black belts in karate, it's a perfectly fine scale. Yujiro with this feat should be able to dominate multiple real life black belts at least, that seems fairly clear with this

 

[Firephoenixearl]

But you still really can't argue it being more impressive.

They do kinda crack but still, ap alone lets you do that. But ikki can cut comparable people with his hands as a tier 10 or 9 mid class disciple so moot point.

Nothing of the sort, plain speed.

Yeah but doppo is better than them in all stats not just skill so not applicable. Just scaling and we're like way beyond peak human skill here so what are you even arguing bruh?

 

[KGiffoni]

Now that i stop to think for a sec Hayato is really similar to Yuichiro when it comes to personality

 

[BakiHanma18]

I can't argue it being more impressive in general, but if Hayato's whisper feat is allowed, why isn't Dorian's hair blowing feat allowed, or his catching himself with his wire?

If it was AP alone, the bottle would shatter, which it does not. Also, the bottle clearly does not crack anywhere it was not struck, nor does it fall from the man's head

But there is in fact weight distribution, timing, etc involved after googling the technique in Chinese Kempo he's using, which can be replicated in real life by Shaolin monks (despite them not being Usain Bolt, world's fastest man)

Since we aren't using stats in Vs Battle, it's clear that this is very strongly implied to be a skill feat. Baki doesn't refer to him as "fast" or "strong", but "good", as in a good fighter. Doppo also dispatches each karateka with skillful maneuvering or slips and counters. Even Baki is focusing on the moves he's using to defeat the group, not how hard he's hitting or how fast he's moving (the anime adaptation to see it in motio)

 

[KGiffoni]

If it was AP alone, the bottle would shatter, which it does not. Also, the bottle clearly does not crack anywhere it was not struck, nor does it fall from the man's head


Since we aren't using stats in Vs Battle, it's clear that this is very strongly implied to be a skill feat. Baki doesn't refer to him as "fast" or "strong", but "good", as in a good fighter. Doppo also dispatches each karateka with skillful maneuvering or slips and counters. Even Baki is focusing on the moves he's using to defeat the group, not how hard he's hitting or how fast he's moving (the anime adaptation to see it in motio)

Agreed with both

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Now that i stop to think for a sec Hayato is really similar to Yuichiro when it comes to personality

Actually they're almost oposites. Yujiro is an A-hole who only fights for ego and self satisfaction. Hayato while he is a battle maniac and likes to be cocky when fighting an opponent or waiting for a fight, that's mostly for comedic effect and he's mostly the "sensei" kind of character. Whereas Yujiro is a "last boss" kind of character.

 

[KGiffoni]

I was refering to Yuichiro, father of Yujiro. He's just like Yujiro power-wise but is the complete opposite when it comes to personality. He's way kinder, and even showed his own spirit from the dead only to cheer Baki in his fight against Yujiro.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh i misread. They are similar yes.

Except the fact that Hayato doesn't die cus he's about as old as Mikumo Kushinada who calls 90y/o's "youngins"

 

[Obscenly]

Oh i misread. They are similar yes.
Except the fact that Hayato doesn't die cus he's about as old as Mikumo Kushinada who calls 90y/o's "youngins"

He just has longevity.

 

[KGiffoni]

Oh i misread. They are similar yes.
Except the fact that Hayato doesn't die cus he's about as old as Mikumo Kushinada who calls 90y/o's "youngins"

T╠Âh╠Âi╠Âs╠ ╠Âl╠Âo╠Âo╠Âk╠Âs╠ ╠Âl╠Âi╠Âk╠Âe╠ ╠Âa╠ ╠Âj╠Âo╠Âb╠ ╠Âf╠Âo╠Âr╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âk╠Âu╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âi╠Âo╠Âh╠Â

 

[Obscenly]

Oh i misread. They are similar yes.
Except the fact that Hayato doesn't die cus he's about as old as Mikumo Kushinada who calls 90y/o's "youngins"

bur then again if he actually did fight in the Sengoku period he should be at least over 300 years old.

 

[Obscenly]

Oh i misread. They are similar yes.
Except the fact that Hayato doesn't die cus he's about as old as Mikumo Kushinada who calls 90y/o's "youngins"

T╠Âh╠Âi╠Âs╠ ╠Âl╠Âo╠Âo╠Âk╠Âs╠ ╠Âl╠Âi╠Âk╠Âe╠ ╠Âa╠ ╠Âj╠Âo╠Âb╠ ╠Âf╠Âo╠Âr╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âk╠Âu╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âi╠Âo╠Âh╠Â

Bro, I just finished New Grappler Baki, so I kinda just got introduced to Kaku, and he is ******* strong as a mf, and a sly old man

 

[Obscenly]

Oh i misread. They are similar yes.
Except the fact that Hayato doesn't die cus he's about as old as Mikumo Kushinada who calls 90y/o's "youngins"

T╠Âh╠Âi╠Âs╠ ╠Âl╠Âo╠Âo╠Âk╠Âs╠ ╠Âl╠Âi╠Âk╠Âe╠ ╠Âa╠ ╠Âj╠Âo╠Âb╠ ╠Âf╠Âo╠Âr╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âk╠Âu╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âi╠Âo╠Âh╠Â

and his son is 120 years old? dude doesn't look older than 40

 

[Obscenly]

Oh i misread. They are similar yes.
Except the fact that Hayato doesn't die cus he's about as old as Mikumo Kushinada who calls 90y/o's "youngins"

T╠Âh╠Âi╠Âs╠ ╠Âl╠Âo╠Âo╠Âk╠Âs╠ ╠Âl╠Âi╠Âk╠Âe╠ ╠Âa╠ ╠Âj╠Âo╠Âb╠ ╠Âf╠Âo╠Âr╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âk╠Âu╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âi╠Âo╠Âh╠Â

and his son is 120 years old? dude doesn't look older than 40

Unless I read the panel wrong

 

[Obscenly]

Oh i misread. They are similar yes.
Except the fact that Hayato doesn't die cus he's about as old as Mikumo Kushinada who calls 90y/o's "youngins"

T╠Âh╠Âi╠Âs╠ ╠Âl╠Âo╠Âo╠Âk╠Âs╠ ╠Âl╠Âi╠Âk╠Âe╠ ╠Âa╠ ╠Âj╠Âo╠Âb╠ ╠Âf╠Âo╠Âr╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âk╠Âu╠ ╠ÂK╠Âa╠Âi╠Âo╠Âh╠Â

Oh, it was a mistranslation, he was born when Kaku was 120

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh i misread. They are similar yes.
Except the fact that Hayato doesn't die cus he's about as old as Mikumo Kushinada who calls 90y/o's "youngins"

bur then again if he actually did fight in the Sengoku period he should be at least over 300 years old.

That is true. But it would mess up the ages a LOT.

 

[Obscenly]

Oh i misread. They are similar yes.
Except the fact that Hayato doesn't die cus he's about as old as Mikumo Kushinada who calls 90y/o's "youngins"

bur then again if he actually did fight in the Sengoku period he should be at least over 300 years old.

That is true. But it would mess up the ages a LOT.

Yep, the Sengoku period started 1467 and ended 1615 is what it says on the wikipedia page

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Because Dorian's hair blowing feat, is not skill. He's not skilling his way into making the hair stronger, it's just PIS that the hair pierces stuff. Catching himself with his wire just contradicts the whole point of the wire which is supposed to cut, there is never mentioned "i didn't get cut cus i am skilled", so it just leaves PIS, as it has no logical explanation.

Kenichi far outdoes that as a mid class disciple either way so let's move on.

>Walking on water

>Can be replicated IRL

Ok, no, just not. It is impossible in real life for humans. It is plain speed it has absolutely nothing to do with timing your foot, it's just being fast enough to remove your foot from the water before you start sinking it's just plain speed. And don't believe any stuff like "a human walked on water irl". And idk why you mentioned Usain Bolt like he can walk on water.

A good fighter is made up of more than just skill. Then again, this has nothing to do with VSBW stats this is just about canon scaling, Doppo absolutely crushes them in ALL categories massively. If you think, that is an impressive skill feat, you think too little of Doppo. He's also beating them 1 by 1.